This United Kingdom

[1966_and_all_that]

In today's Guardian the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown made a very telling comment about Boris Johnson and the potential break-up of the Union.

He wrote: "The problem for Boris Johnson is, I think he had one sentence in his speech yesterday in the Queen’s Speech, about the union itself. I don’t think he’s thought about it, I don’t think he understands it, I think he’s got to start beginning to understand it. He’s a historian, he must remember that Lord North was the prime minister who lost America and that’s all he’s remembered for, if Boris Johnson becomes the prime minister who loses Scotland and sees the end of the United Kingdom, that’s all he will be remembered for. We need to give some attention to this issue, and we need to do it pretty urgently."

I would go beyond that comment and say that I don't believe Johnson is interested in the Union. I think he's an English nationalist with a particularly myopic idea of what that means. For us as a nation to continue this small-minded retreat into some sort of parochial nimbyism would be harmful in the extreme: harmful to our standing in the world and the perception of tolerance that we have become known for over the past 150 years , harmful to our psyche, our values and morality and harmful to our standard of living. The modern world needs to be about community, not pulling up drawbridges. Are we to become like the island of Ireland, bickering and backstabbing each other over nationalism versus unionism? Are we to become like the Israelis and the Palestinians, wracked by apartheid and racial & religious intolerance?

We need a leadership in this nation that believes in the Union and sees only one nation of citizens - where the values of a Londoner, an Aberdonian, a Welsh and Northern Irish person carry the same weight and where these people can all believe that they have a stake in this United Kingdom. At present the Conservative and Unionist Party under Johnson reads like a contradiction in terms, whilst the other mainstream parties do little to pronounce the importance of the Union to their policies and principals.

 

[Chunkylad]

Wise words indeed

 

[Scaramanga]

In today's Guardian the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown made a very telling comment about Boris Johnson and the potential break-up of the Union.

He wrote: "The problem for Boris Johnson is, I think he had one sentence in his speech yesterday in the Queen’s Speech, about the union itself. I don’t think he’s thought about it, I don’t think he understands it, I think he’s got to start beginning to understand it. He’s a historian, he must remember that Lord North was the prime minister who lost America and that’s all he’s remembered for, if Boris Johnson becomes the prime minister who loses Scotland and sees the end of the United Kingdom, that’s all he will be remembered for. We need to give some attention to this issue, and we need to do it pretty urgently."

I would go beyond that comment and say that I don't believe Johnson is interested in the Union. I think he's an English nationalist with a particularly myopic idea of what that means. For us as a nation to continue this small-minded retreat into some sort of parochial nimbyism would be harmful in the extreme: harmful to our standing in the world and the perception of tolerance that we have become known for over the past 150 years , harmful to our psyche, our values and morality and harmful to our standard of living. The modern world needs to be about community, not pulling up drawbridges. Are we to become like the island of Ireland, bickering and backstabbing each other over nationalism versus unionism? Are we to become like the Israelis and the Palestinians, wracked by apartheid and racial & religious intolerance?

We need a leadership in this nation that believes in the Union and sees only one nation of citizens - where the values of a Londoner, an Aberdonian, a Welsh and Northern Irish person carry the same weight and where these people can all believe that they have a stake in this United Kingdom. At present the Conservative and Unionist Party under Johnson reads like a contradiction in terms, whilst the other mainstream parties do little to pronounce the importance of the Union to their policies and principals.

The SNP have been trying to break away for longer than Boris has been in the big chair. If the Union is to survive then it Will take more than just Boris to find is Union Jack. The others need to stop pushing divisive policies. Sadly from the outside looking in it seems too many people in all the governments across the UK don’t seem to want to get along.

 

[TSSeasider]

... Are we to become like the Israelis and the Palestinians, wracked by apartheid and racial & religious intolerance?

That's quite the stretch given they had a democratic and peaceful 'once in a generation' referendum, confirming a sizeable majority of Scots wanted to remain part of the UK about 6 years ago.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

Is it odd that many of the pro Brexit posters on here seemingly do not want the Scots to be given the opportunity to 'take back control' even when the majority of them want it?
Is it also odd that the SNP want to break up the union and gain independence to join another larger union?
Strange times.

 

[Matesrates]

Gordon who? Os he supposed to be remembered for something?

 

[Kip]

In today's Guardian the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown made a very telling comment about Boris Johnson and the potential break-up of the Union.

He wrote: "The problem for Boris Johnson is, I think he had one sentence in his speech yesterday in the Queen’s Speech, about the union itself. I don’t think he’s thought about it, I don’t think he understands it, I think he’s got to start beginning to understand it. He’s a historian, he must remember that Lord North was the prime minister who lost America and that’s all he’s remembered for, if Boris Johnson becomes the prime minister who loses Scotland and sees the end of the United Kingdom, that’s all he will be remembered for. We need to give some attention to this issue, and we need to do it pretty urgently."

I would go beyond that comment and say that I don't believe Johnson is interested in the Union. I think he's an English nationalist with a particularly myopic idea of what that means. For us as a nation to continue this small-minded retreat into some sort of parochial nimbyism would be harmful in the extreme: harmful to our standing in the world and the perception of tolerance that we have become known for over the past 150 years , harmful to our psyche, our values and morality and harmful to our standard of living. The modern world needs to be about community, not pulling up drawbridges. Are we to become like the island of Ireland, bickering and backstabbing each other over nationalism versus unionism? Are we to become like the Israelis and the Palestinians, wracked by apartheid and racial & religious intolerance?

We need a leadership in this nation that believes in the Union and sees only one nation of citizens - where the values of a Londoner, an Aberdonian, a Welsh and Northern Irish person carry the same weight and where these people can all believe that they have a stake in this United Kingdom. At present the Conservative and Unionist Party under Johnson reads like a contradiction in terms, whilst the other mainstream parties do little to pronounce the importance of the Union to their policies and principals.

I love this idea of 'English nationalism' from the Left. How does this English nationalism express itself? What are real-world practical examples of this?

Do the English want hard borders with Wales and Scotland?
Is there a movement to stop non-English Brits working in England?
Do English universities discriminate against non-English British entrants?
Are tax regimes worse in the other countries?
Is public spending more per head in England?
Does England have it's own Parliament?

If England is full of nationalists, we're not making a good job of it.

The only nationalists in the UK are Scottish and Irish. They both have perfectly legitimate political ambitions and, contrary to Remainer opinions, most Brexiteers have no problem with the idea of self-determination.

As far as I can see, the difference between Brexit and an independent Scotland is that the UK - as the world's 5th largest economy and with an unparalleled global legacy - can raise it's horizons and look beyond it's European backyard for future growth and prosperity whereas the ambition for Scotland appears to be to become another Slovenia or Estonia hiding beneath the skirts of Brussels.

It all just seems so... small.

 

[tangysider]

Gordon who? Os he supposed to be remembered for something?

Yes he sold the gold reserves at a particularly poor time return wise and left the cupboard bare

 

[Scaramanga]

Is it odd that many of the pro Brexit posters on here seemingly do not want the Scots to be given the opportunity to 'take back control' even when the majority of them want it?
Is it also odd that the SNP want to break up the union and gain independence to join another larger union?
Strange times.

I think they would rather be ruled by the EU rather than Westminster. Pure Nationalist bile towards England. (Only an opinion of course)

 

[1966_and_all_that]

That's quite the stretch given they had a democratic and peaceful 'once in a generation' referendum, confirming a sizeable majority of Scots wanted to remain part of the UK about 6 years ago.

That was....do we want to become more and more alienated from one another until we reach a point where.....

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Wise words indeed

Appreciated.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I love this idea of 'English nationalism' from the Left. How does this English nationalism express itself? What are real-world practical examples of this?

Do the English want hard borders with Wales and Scotland?
Is there a movement to stop non-English Brits working in England?
Do English universities discriminate against non-English British entrants?
Are tax regimes worse in the other countries?
Is public spending more per head in England?
Does England have it's own Parliament?

If England is full of nationalists, we're not making a good job of it.

The only nationalists in the UK are Scottish and Irish. They both have perfectly legitimate political ambitions and, contrary to Remainer opinions, most Brexiteers have no problem with the idea of self-determination.

As far as I can see, the difference between Brexit and an independent Scotland is that the UK - as the world's 5th largest economy and with an unparalleled global legacy - can raise it's horizons and look beyond it's European backyard for future growth and prosperity whereas the ambition for Scotland appears to be to become another Slovenia or Estonia hiding beneath the skirts of Brussels.

It all just seems so... small.

Patronising, yes that's one of the descriptors of English nationalism. It just came to me as I was reading your post

 

[Ragnarok]

SNP may be running out of time. I have a theory, I may be wrong, but I think Scotland is quite liberal lefty at the moment a bit like the Scan countries say a decade ago but the winds of change may be blowing in the opposite direction as these countries seem to be edging closer to what some would call the populist right. The same could happen in Scotland and once that happens it might scupper any chances of an independence success for the SNP as Scottish could soften their stance towards UK Conservatism. So under this theory if she doesn't get a breakaway now it might be a genuine generation before the winds are back in their favour.

Anyway just a theory of mine

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Gordon who? Os he supposed to be remembered for something?

Doing a significant amount to keep the banks solvent in 2008/09 immediately after the world banking crisis.
Being the persuasive senior voice that stopped the separatists winning the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.
Being a Chancellor who facilitated the funding for Blair to massively reduce hospital waiting lists, significantly improve educational attainment in England and Wales and realign a benefits system towards aid for the working poor and to introduce the minimum wage.

A good Unionist who has done good work for the United Kingdom.

 

[Kip]

Patronising, yes that's one of the descriptors of English nationalism. It just came to me as I was reading your post

Surely that would make hard-line Remainers the ultimate English nationalists?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I love this idea of 'English nationalism' from the Left. How does this English nationalism express itself? What are real-world practical examples of this?

Do the English want hard borders with Wales and Scotland?
Is there a movement to stop non-English Brits working in England?
Do English universities discriminate against non-English British entrants?
Are tax regimes worse in the other countries?
Is public spending more per head in England?
Does England have it's own Parliament?

If England is full of nationalists, we're not making a good job of it.

The only nationalists in the UK are Scottish and Irish. They both have perfectly legitimate political ambitions and, contrary to Remainer opinions, most Brexiteers have no problem with the idea of self-determination.

As far as I can see, the difference between Brexit and an independent Scotland is that the UK - as the world's 5th largest economy and with an unparalleled global legacy - can raise it's horizons and look beyond it's European backyard for future growth and prosperity whereas the ambition for Scotland appears to be to become another Slovenia or Estonia hiding beneath the skirts of Brussels.

It all just seems so... small.

What do you mean practical examples? It's a political philosophy, a state to aim for. There are plenty of English nationalists and there are plenty of shades of English nationalism: from Orwell, through Farrage to the BNP.

But then, you know this so stop coming the abused innocent.

 

[Miko]

I wonder whether Queen Krankie would have been in favour of a further independence vote now if the vote of 6 years ago had gone the other way? I reckon she would be claiming the vote 6 years ago was a 'once in a lifetime' etc etc and should not run the risk of being overturned regardless of peoples wishes.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

What do you mean practical examples? It's a political philosophy, a state to aim for. There are plenty of English nationalists and there are plenty of shades of English nationalism: from Orwell, through Farrage to the BNP.

But then, you know this so stop coming the abused innocent.

Orwell hated nationalism.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

SNP may be running out of time. I have a theory, I may be wrong, but I think Scotland is quite liberal lefty at the moment a bit like the Scan countries say a decade ago but the winds of change may be blowing in the opposite direction as these countries seem to be edging closer to what some would call the populist right. The same could happen in Scotland and once that happens it might scupper any chances of an independence success for the SNP as Scottish could soften their stance towards UK Conservatism. So under this theory if she doesn't get a breakaway now it might be a genuine generation before the winds are back in their favour.

Anyway just a theory of mine

A bleeding good one as well. Scottish politics ranges from the hard left, through the Scandi democratic left to a socially conservative Liberalism. The one thing it has never gone for is English far-right nationalism.
Being part Scots and having seen both family and the country close up down the years I would say that the SNP's base support lies in the centre-left; which is socially and intellectually a mix of progressive politics and social conservatism. Should that base move slightly to the right, into big C Conservative territory then I think Sturgeon is lost. I agree that she understands this and perhaps sees time being against her. Then again, once the shit-show of Brexit reaches full flower I think there'll be many Scots attracted to the independence life-boat.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I wonder whether Queen Krankie would have been in favour of a further independence vote now if the vote of 6 years ago had gone the other way? I reckon she would be claiming the vote 6 years ago was a 'once in a lifetime' etc etc and should not run the risk of being overturned regardless of peoples wishes.

The thing that boils my piss about her is that she DID say that it was a once in a lifetime vote. Sincerity...out the window.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Surely that would make hard-line Remainers the ultimate English nationalists?

Wanting to be a part of a pan-European trade and social union makes someone a nationalist.
We'll, like the Queen of Hearts I do try to believe seven impossible things before breakfast but that's going a bit far!

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Orwell hated nationalism.

I know, I was trying to convey the notion of what he saw Englishness as being - which came out through his published essays - rather than suggesting he was a nationalist. My clumsiness.

 

[Ragnarok]

Orwell hated nationalism.

And socialism

I'm convinced he was actually the inventor of the monster raving loony party

 

[Lytham_fy8]

And socialism

I'm convinced he was actually the inventor of the monster raving loony party

Socialism? I think that's the only thing he didn't hate

Anyway, he despised totalitarianism, nationalism, Communism (well so would you if you had to evade them after being branded a traitor while being shot in the throat fighting on the same side), Anti Semitism (fairly unique for his time in those circles), materialism, xenophobia etc.. and constantly warned us against it. No one listened though, so we got Trump, Putin, Jinping, Erdogan, Chavez etc..in the last 10 years alone.

He'd have hated Brexit.

 

[spudgun]

Rather surprisingly the Great Man was also critical of international sport (football included), linking it to nationalism and believing it to be "an unfailing cause of ill-will (amongst nations)."

Taken from `Notes on nationalism - This sporting spirit`.

Possibly the only thing I`ve ever mildly disagreed with him.

As well as Brexit, he`d also have hated everything about this government and its media shills...

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Rather surprisingly the Great Man was also critical of international sport (football included), linking it to nationalism and believing it to be "an unfailing cause of ill-will (amongst nations)."

Taken from `Notes on nationalism - This sporting spirit`.

Possibly the only thing I`ve ever mildly disagreed with him.

As well as Brexit, he`d also have hated everything about this government and its media shills...

He was a bit homophobic as well, but then I suppose the majority were back then.

 

[TSSeasider]

He was a bit homophobic as well, but then I suppose the majority were back then.

Hope he isn't cancelled because of it

 

[TSSeasider]

That was....do we want to become more and more alienated from one another until we reach a point where.....

Well to be fair, the SNP are national socialists aided and abetted by their separatist friends The Greens.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Hope he isn't cancelled because of it

They could try...

Roald Dahl seems to have got away with his raging Anti Semitism and TS Eliot (this is the way the world ends, not with a bang, but a woker*) was a homophobic misogynist racist and he's still revered, although I'm not sure his reputation can withstand that last Cats film.



*One for 20s there.

 

[Kip]

What do you mean practical examples? It's a political philosophy, a state to aim for. There are plenty of English nationalists and there are plenty of shades of English nationalism: from Orwell, through Farrage to the BNP.

But then, you know this so stop coming the abused innocent.

Wtf are you on about?

You're all over the place on this. If there are no practical examples then it's only an idea and just another bogeyman to frighten the children with. Ideas don't hurt people - it's the implementation of bad ideas you should be railing against and there's no evidence of any meaningful form of English nationalism in this country. Never has been in our lifetimes either.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Wtf are you on about?

You're all over the place on this. If there are no practical examples then it's only an idea and just another bogeyman to frighten the children with. Ideas don't hurt people - it's the implementation of bad ideas you should be railing against and there's no evidence of any meaningful form of English nationalism in this country. Never has been in our lifetimes either.

See Michael Kenny: The Genesis of English Nationalism, published by the Centre on Constitutional Change.
Or, Gavin Esler: How Britain Ends, published by Head of Zeus.

 

[Tangojoe]

I think they would rather be ruled by the EU rather than Westminster. Pure Nationalist bile towards England. (Only an opinion of course)

FOI data from the Scottish Government revealed SNP led-Government ministers spent £1,411.20 of Scottish taxpayers' money on five new EU flags in the 2020/21 financial year. £1,138.20 was also allocated from the Scottish Government’s Constitution and External Affairs budget on seven brand new Saltire flags and £841.20 on four Union flags.

The new EU flags will be flown above all Scottish Government buildings at the request of the Scottish First Minister. In the Scottish Government’s flag flying guidance 2021, the First Minister has instructed that the European flag is flown from Scottish Government buildings on a daily basis. The new guidance also states the Union flag may only be flown once a year on Remembrance Sunday.

So, effectively, the Union flag has been banned in Scotland and Scottish government buildings have been told by Ms Sturgeon to fly the EU flag in its place.

 

[thefutureistangerine]

The thing that boils my piss about her is that she DID say that it was a once in a lifetime vote. Sincerity...out the window.

She did, but, to be fair, there has been a material change of circumstances with Brexit. And 62% of Scottish voters voted to remain.

Also, when Cameron campaigned against Scottish independence in 2014 it was with the assurance he would keep the UK in the EU.

 

[Curryman]

The Heading which includes the word This should be changed to Dis, because Disunited is nearer the truth than United!

 

[Wizaard]

What do you mean practical examples? It's a political philosophy, a state to aim for. There are plenty of English nationalists and there are plenty of shades of English nationalism: from Orwell, through Farrage to the BNP.

But then, you know this so stop coming the abused innocent.

There was a candidate for the English Democrats standing for the Yorkshire Mayor role won by Tracy Brabin.

Basically the BNP with a new name. Lost their deposit.

 

[Bottle]

FOI data from the Scottish Government revealed SNP led-Government ministers spent £1,411.20 of Scottish taxpayers' money on five new EU flags in the 2020/21 financial year. £1,138.20 was also allocated from the Scottish Government’s Constitution and External Affairs budget on seven brand new Saltire flags and £841.20 on four Union flags.

The new EU flags will be flown above all Scottish Government buildings at the request of the Scottish First Minister. In the Scottish Government’s flag flying guidance 2021, the First Minister has instructed that the European flag is flown from Scottish Government buildings on a daily basis. The new guidance also states the Union flag may only be flown once a year on Remembrance Sunday.

So, effectively, the Union flag has been banned in Scotland and Scottish government buildings have been told by Ms Sturgeon to fly the EU flag in its place.


View attachment 6077

The UK is still part of the Council of Europe, which shares the same flag as the European Union - of which, it may come as a surprise to many, the UK is no longer a part of.

So Scotland, and indeed England, Wales and “Norn Iron”, are perfectly entitled to fly this flag if they so wish.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I think we need to maybe have a ‘cuddle a jock’ week once Covid is over. Try and let the miserable bastards know that we still love them really

 

[Ragnarok]

There was a candidate for the English Democrats standing for the Yorkshire Mayor role won by Tracy Brabin.

Basically the BNP with a new name. Lost their deposit.

Sorry you're wrong about this. English Democrats are nothing to do with the BNP and they were around during the BNP being relatively successful (in European Elections) so I think you need to re educate yourself on this particular point

I wonder what happened to The Natural Law Party. I actually remember voting for them once as I liked the cut of their jib at that specific point in time

 

[Wizaard]

Sorry you're wrong about this. English Democrats are nothing to do with the BNP and they were around during the BNP being relatively successful (in European Elections) so I think you need to re educate yourself on this particular point

I wonder what happened to The Natural Law Party. I actually remember voting for them once as I liked the cut of their jib at that specific point in time

Our candidate was a former member. I did my research. Thank you.

 

[Junior_BentsPlatformShoes]

Only when as a race if we stop waving flags and calling bits of land names and having borders, fighting etc will the world actually live in harmony. Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush n all that. Idealistic but needs to happen with the state the globe is in, but never will.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Sorry you're wrong about this. English Democrats are nothing to do with the BNP and they were around during the BNP being relatively successful (in European Elections) so I think you need to re educate yourself on this particular point

I wonder what happened to The Natural Law Party. I actually remember voting for them once as I liked the cut of their jib at that specific point in time

George Harrison - he died you know.

 

[Ragnarok]

Our candidate was a former member. I did my research. Thank you.

Wasn't meant to be a dig. Was just pointing out they are deffo not one and the same

 

[Wizaard]

Wasn't meant to be a dig. Was just pointing out they are deffo not one and the same

No, they're not, but a significant number have moved in.

 

[Scaramanga]

Only when as a race if we stop waving flags and calling bits of land names and having borders, fighting etc will the world actually live in harmony. Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush n all that. Idealistic but needs to happen with the state the globe is in, but never will.

That’s never going to happen, believe it or not lots of other countries are also patriotic and believe in having borders. Living in harmony is a nice thought but unfortunately not possible.

 

[Junior_BentsPlatformShoes]

That’s never going to happen, believe it or not lots of other countries are also patriotic and believe in having borders. Living in harmony is a nice thought but unfortunately not possible.

Aye I know but at some point the human race has to understand we essentially live in a snow globe and that we need to work on problems globally or else it doesn’t end well. We’ll probably not be so bad but dread to think what my kids will have when they’re my age.

 

[Scaramanga]

Aye I know but at some point the human race has to understand we essentially live in a snow globe and that we need to work on problems globally or else it doesn’t end well. We’ll probably not be so bad but dread to think what my kids will have when they’re my age.

Yes I know, I genuinely fear for the future, sometimes I like to refer back to the pale blue dot to put things into perspective.

Pale Blue Dot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Cuthbert]

This Government has betrayed Northern Ireland and cut is loose. It is clearly intent on seeing Scotland go the same way.