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Thread about the English Channel Tragedy

poolseasider

Well-known member
No, I'm not starting it up again. I didn't post on the original but I've just read it

Come on AVFTT, we've got to be better than that. People died here. The forum doesn't need a yaa-boo one-upmanship thread on occasions like this.
Always said rather than delete certain posts the lazy barstewards get rid of the lot never read it or posted but I can only guess how it went.
 

EagleDay

Well-known member
What makes them want to risk their lives on such a hazardous crossing to come here when they have already crossed several safe countries, I can't seriously believe it is because they think the streets are paved with gold and they can get anything they want just by the asking. After all, according to some, we are a nasty racist country, so what's the attraction? God rest the victim's souls.
 

EagleDay

Well-known member
And this is where I came in. Let's not do a finger point at any one. We all need to think about what can be done to sort it. Finger pointing does not help.
I don't see how it can be sorted, how do you solve the root cause? They don't seem to be able to live in peace with each other to begin with, T
that results in thousands trying to escape into Europe. If the west send in the military to restore peace we get blamed for destabilising those countries which also leads to the problem we have now.
 

Threepeaksphil

Well-known member
I don't understand why French/UK Police don't go undercover pretending to want to take a group across and flush out the evil monsters who are running this trade taking thousands off desparate people.
 

Chunkylad

Well-known member
I don't understand why French/UK Police don't go undercover pretending to want to take a group across and flush out the evil monsters who are running this trade taking thousands off desparate people.
If this is a debate purely about the policing element and not the human tragedy: look at all suppliers of rib dinghies and life jackets.
If 20k crossing have been attempted this year, that’s a lot of boats being supplied by someone Follow the leads from there.
 

Scaramanga

Well-known member
If this is a debate purely about the policing element and not the human tragedy: look at all suppliers of rib dinghies and life jackets.
If 20k crossing have been attempted this year, that’s a lot of boats being supplied by someone Follow the leads from there.
Clearly the local authorities have absolutely no intensions of doing this.
 

Jaffa_The_Hut

Well-known member
Cancel culture innit?

Rather than engage with posters/speakers/writers who may have opinions that differ from theirs, some prefer to simply shout them down, stop them from being heard, refuse to engage because maybe there are some uncomfortable truths that they'd prefer not to confront.
Exactly it’s all about opinions and some on here don’t like it because Joe Bloggs disagrees with their opinions.
 

Always tangerine

Well-known member
I don't understand why French/UK Police don't go undercover pretending to want to take a group across and flush out the evil monsters who are running this trade taking thousands off desparate people.
French newspapers saying that 1500 people smugglers arrested this year ( don't know what then happened) 4 or 5 arrested overnight. Suggested gangs controlled from other countries in Europe including by people in London.
 

1966_and_all_that

Well-known member
Look,

it's reverting to a falling out over who's stopping who from saying what and 'what do you think you're implying?'

I can see that some posters are trying to be discursive and considerate but unless we can be more generalistic about things without sniping then these threads will continue to be shut down.
I vote for ending this one now.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut

Well-known member
Look,

it's reverting to a falling out over who'se stopping who from saying what and 'what do you think you're implying?'

I can see that some posters are trying to be discursive and considerate but unless we can be more generalistic about things without sniping then these threads will continue to be shut down.
I vote for ending this one now.

Look, if people can’t sensibly debate a topic like grown adults we might as well close the whole News/Covid/Politics board down and the mods to simply say we no longer can debate any topic other than football is that what we want?
 

todayistheday

Well-known member
If this is a debate purely about the policing element and not the human tragedy: look at all suppliers of rib dinghies and life jackets.
If 20k crossing have been attempted this year, that’s a lot of boats being supplied by someone Follow the leads from there.
I like your way of thinking have you passed this on to the authorities.
 

Shandypants

Well-known member
Last time I checked France take 4x the refugees/migrants/people that we do. If some migrants want to come to the UK for reasons such as language or family what is the point in France stopping them? The UK border force also operate in France, if the French were being as difficult as the right wing element claim, they'd pull the rug on that one. I'm bored of hearing how it's the fault of the French, migrants are "illegally" travelling none of it is true. The right wing element should be delirious we have had a right wing government for a considerable period of time. All I hear is them blaming others and moaning?
 

TSSeasider

Well-known member
Last time I checked France take 4x the refugees/migrants/people that we do. If some migrants want to come to the UK for reasons such as language or family what is the point in France stopping them? The UK border force also operate in France, if the French were being as difficult as the right wing element claim, they'd pull the rug on that one. I'm bored of hearing how it's the fault of the French, migrants are "illegally" travelling none of it is true. The right wing element should be delirious we have had a right wing government for a considerable period of time. All I hear is them blaming others and moaning?
Took or were a transit point?

The root cause is global inequality.

There is zero desire to change that at supranational level.

The EU, NAFTA, Trans-Pacific and all the others are all protectionist trading blocks which keeps loads of countries very poor.

And that's before we get to the exploitation of the mineral wealth of some nations and the piss taking, fraudulent politicians which run them who take back handers from corrupt private companies.

Poor people want to move to areas with more wealth and therefore we have migration; create wealth in those places and they stay.

Far too many powerful people unaffected and probably benefitting from the global movement of people for it to change, especially as it will mean losing some of our own living standards as part of the deal.

File it under 'too hard to deal with' like climate change and the rest.

Meanwhile, 31 people dying is an acceptable price to pay to keep up the pretence that we and the French are doing something about it.

Nobody who can do anything about it anywhere genuinely gives a shit.
 

Shandypants

Well-known member
Took or were a transit point?

The root cause is global inequality.

There is zero desire to change that at supranational level.

The EU, NAFTA, Trans-Pacific and all the others are all protectionist trading blocks which keeps loads of countries very poor.

And that's before we get to the exploitation of the mineral wealth of some nations and the piss taking, fraudulent politicians which run them who take back handers from corrupt private companies.

Poor people want to move to areas with more wealth and therefore we have migration; create wealth in those places and they stay.

Far too many powerful people unaffected and probably benefitting from the global movement of people for it to change, especially as it will mean losing some of our own living standards as part of the deal.

File it under 'too hard to deal with' like climate change and the rest.

Meanwhile, 31 people dying is an acceptable price to pay to keep up the pretence that we and the French are doing something about it.

Nobody who can do anything about it anywhere genuinely gives a shit.
We (the west) also created instability in Iraq, Libya, Syria the kins of places people are fleeing.
 

EagleDay

Well-known member
Look,

it's reverting to a falling out over who's stopping who from saying what and 'what do you think you're implying?'

I can see that some posters are trying to be discursive and considerate but unless we can be more generalistic about things without sniping then these threads will continue to be shut down.
I vote for ending this one now.
If we closed down every thread that included sniping we wouldn't be able to discuss anything. Maybe it would be more adult to tolerate the snipers as we know they are just trying to be irritating.
 

gjr69

Well-known member
Governments and politicians don't often deal in what's morally right or wrong. They do what their biggest benefactors want and they tend to avoid anything that might lose them votes in an election.
With this in mind they will do nothing to fix this problem. As there is nothing in it for billionaires and a massive number of voters have very negative feelings about immigration in any form.
The safest thing would be to build a joint Anglo /French facility for refugees to be housed in decent conditions on French soil. Asylum seekers and refugees could then have their cases assessed fairly, maybe by an independent body.
In the meantime we stop meddling in the affairs of middle Eastern countries if the intention is purely the selling of weapons or the stripping of wealth or assets from them.
If the likes of Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Iraq become safe places to live most people won't want to leave their own families and cultures.
Those that don't pass the vetting process should probably be given one opportunity to appeal and if unsuccessful returned to their original home.
Allowing gangsters to profit from the innocent and desperate, resulting in many being killed is a terrible thing to have on your conscience if you were in a position to stop it.
 

TSSeasider

Well-known member
We (the west) also created instability in Iraq, Libya, Syria the kins of places people are fleeing.
I agree.

Do you think anybody in power gives a shit about that either?

Other than a small number of back benchers in this country, most were quite happy to send other people's kids to die trying to impose our values on other places which to be frank appear quite happy living under barbaric leaders.

They don't care about the collateral damage of 250k locals caught up in it either.

We should help those who helped our forces but other than stay well clear of overseas nation building for as long as possible.

But those leaving aren't the only ones heading to the UK via France. Loads are from other parts of the Africa (in particular).

The broader point should be to enable people to live well in their country of origin without the desperate need to flee for their lives to the UK.
 

gjr69

Well-known member
What makes them want to risk their lives on such a hazardous crossing to come here when they have already crossed several safe countries, I can't seriously believe it is because they think the streets are paved with gold and they can get anything they want just by the asking. After all, according to some, we are a nasty racist country, so what's the attraction? God rest the victim's souls.
I agree with a lot of what you say, making the world a better place for the majority rather than letting it be a plaything for a handful of billionaire psychopaths has to be the way forward.
The problem is our government and the business interests of British companies contributes to the problems in many of these countries.
Do we not have an obligation to help the widowed, orphaned, injured and homeless as a result of that?
But ultimately I agree if people feel safe and happy they generally stay at home, we need to stop contributing to their misery and insecurity.
 

Wizaard

Well-known member
Look,

it's reverting to a falling out over who's stopping who from saying what and 'what do you think you're implying?'

I can see that some posters are trying to be discursive and considerate but unless we can be more generalistic about things without sniping then these threads will continue to be shut down.
I vote for ending this one now.
It's not a debate when someone posts they have no sympathy at all with 27 drowned people because 'they knew the risks.'

That's just sick.
 

1966_and_all_that

Well-known member
It's not a debate when someone posts they have no sympathy at all with 27 drowned people because 'they knew the risks.'

That's just sick.
Of course it is. My point is that we need to stay clear of such extremes when posting. TSSeasider's last post contains stuff I have issues with but it's a considered and thoughtful view that deserves an audience who can then agree with it or show reasoned opposition. It's the name-calling, petulance and extreme views that we should offload.
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
QUOTE="1966_and_all_that, post: 592197, member: 209"]
Of course it is. My point is that we need to stay clear of such extremes when posting. TSSeasider's last post contains stuff I have issues with but it's a considered and thoughtful view that deserves an audience who can then agree with it or show reasoned opposition. It's the name-calling, petulance and extreme views that we should offload.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with that, but when saying that there should be a safe route to asylum (supported by charities such as Amnesty International, Caroline Lucas, and Alf Dubs (a child refugee himself) results in accusations of extremism, and deliberately targeted personal abuse it can be difficult to avoid.
 

parker14

Well-known member
It's not a debate when someone posts they have no sympathy at all with 27 drowned people because 'they knew the risks.'

That's just sick.
Children aside they knew the risks, yet they are still coming. These people have smart phones, better clothes than me and 5000 euros in their pockets to pay criminal gangs to enter the country illegally.
 

Wizaard

Well-known member
Children aside they knew the risks, yet they are still coming. These people have smart phones, better clothes than me and 5000 euros in their pockets to pay criminal gangs to enter the country illegally.
If you sold everything you owned you'd have that kind of money easily enough. Still sick to have no sympathy. Says a lot about you, I venture to suggest.
 
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