Trans

Phil_bfc deux said:
Why the need for abuse?

Can you not debate the point without the need for name calling?

What don't you agree with, are you saying that biology lies and having a penis doesn't make you male anymore because your brain thinks different?
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This is a passage from the results section;

"The observed shift away from a male-typical brain anatomy towards a female-typical one in people who identify as transgender women suggests a possible underlying neuroanatomical correlate for a female gender identity. That is, all transgender women included in this study were confirmed to be genetic males who had not undergone any gender-affirming hormone therapy. Thus, these transgender women have been subject to the influence of androgens and grown up (at least up until a certain age) in an environment that presumably treated them as males. The combination of male genes, androgens, and (to some degree) male upbringing should ordinarily be expected to result in a male-typical brain [39,40,41,42,43,44,45], making a female-typical brain anatomy extremely unlikely. Yet, the brain anatomy in the current sample of transgender women is shifted towards their gender identity—an observation that is at least partly in agreement with previous reports, as discussed in the following."

To put it simply, their brain structure is not a typically male brain - it's shifted towards a female brain. Brain structure is also biology.
Why do you think this effect can be measured scientifically?
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
I'm not talking against anyone, I'm merely getting back to basic by suggesting that if you are born with a penis you are a male

If you disagree than fine
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When I worked at Victoria Hospial I came across a couple of distressing instances where babies were born with both genitalia. I understand that this can be corrected with surgery but what to do? Without the benefit of the developing mind it's almost impossible to know what is for the best.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
This is a passage from the results section;

"The observed shift away from a male-typical brain anatomy towards a female-typical one in people who identify as transgender women suggests a possible underlying neuroanatomical correlate for a female gender identity. That is, all transgender women included in this study were confirmed to be genetic males who had not undergone any gender-affirming hormone therapy. Thus, these transgender women have been subject to the influence of androgens and grown up (at least up until a certain age) in an environment that presumably treated them as males. The combination of male genes, androgens, and (to some degree) male upbringing should ordinarily be expected to result in a male-typical brain [39,40,41,42,43,44,45], making a female-typical brain anatomy extremely unlikely. Yet, the brain anatomy in the current sample of transgender women is shifted towards their gender identity—an observation that is at least partly in agreement with previous reports, as discussed in the following."

To put it simply, their brain structure is not a typically male brain - it's shifted towards a female brain. Brain structure is also biology.
Why do you think this effect can be measured scientifically?
Click to expand...
I couldn't give a sh!t what some strange scientist thinks

There are only 2 genders Male and Female
 
1966_and_all_that said:
When I worked at Victoria Hospial I came across a couple of distressing instances where babies were born with both genitalia. I understand that this can be corrected with surgery but what to do? Without the benefit of the developing mind it's almost impossible to know what is for
Click to expand...

You are using extreme cases to try and make a point

ElBurroSinNombre said:
Science is all about discovering the truth and understanding why things happen.
From your answer it's clear that you are not really interested in exploring that.
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Correct I'm not one bit bothered and to be frank i think its all a bit weird, i certainly won't lose any sleep over the subject

If someone is born male yet wants to be female then unfortunately they are still male and i honestly don't give a sh!t if you think otherwise
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
You are using extreme cases to try and make a point


Correct I'm not one bit bothered and to be frank i think its all a bit weird, i certainly won't lose any sleep over the subject

If someone is born male yet wants to be female then unfortunately they are still male and i honestly don't give a sh!t if you think otherwise
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No I wasn't I was just recalling the situation.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Agreed.
I'll just post this link again;
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or their ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The paper shows evidence that the brain structure / function of trans people is different from either male or female cis identifying people. This difference shows that there is a genuine biological difference between trans people and the rest of the population. Science is currently trying to understand the differences.

It's worth remembering that until fairly recently many thought that gayness could be 'cured'. We are currently at a similar stage in our understanding of trans issues.
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Firstly, that's transgender "women", aka men, so how applicable it is to natal females is unclear. (Edit: it is of course very, very clear).

Secondly, this is of course a hotly disputed area: https://www.buttonslives.news/p/debunked-the-transgender-brain-sex

The majority of the studies on the “transgender brain” have a fatal flaw: they didn’t control for confounding variables like cross-sex hormone use and, most importantly, sexual orientation. When a study doesn't control for confounding variables, it means that the researchers did not take into account other factors that could have affected the results of the study, which make it difficult or impossible to determine whether the relationship between the two variables being studied is truly causal or a byproduct of other unrelated factors.

Cross-sex hormone use can have effects on the brain, including changes in brain structure and function. But more importantly, many trans-identifying individuals are same-sex attracted, so the research on the “transgender brain” claiming to find structural regions that resemble the opposite sex are essentially rediscovering findings on the “gay brain” and reinterpreting the results to fit their preferred conclusion.

The first “brain sex” study that did take into account the participants' sexual orientation found that the brains of transgender individuals were similar to those of people of the same birth sex rather than the opposite sex.

When researchers scan the brains of heterosexual people who identify as transgender, they also find they are typical for their natal sex. Samuel Stagg, a U.K.-based Ph.D. student of neuroimmunology, explains: “The homosexual sub-group show brains skewed along the male-female dimension. However, this is predominantly due to their co-occurring homosexuality. When we scan the brains of the heterosexual type, we find they are more typical for their natal sex.”


And https://www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/

Fewer studies have been performed on trans-identified female brains. Looking at the structural aspects of the brain where we see a sex difference the transgender brain matches natal female controls. Notably, even cortex thickness for trans-identified females matches that of natal females. (No studies exist comparing white matter). So, there is no evidence to suggest that the brains of trans-identified females are any different to any other natal female.


Edit:

One final point, even if the "trans-brain" hypothesis is correct, that is still not evidence that medical intervention is beneficial to the individual.
 
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Lost Seasider said:
That thousands, if not tens of thousands, of vulnerable girls and young women, have been subjected to life changing treatments on the basis of zero clinical evidence, because, in the words of Alison Person. "as critics like me saw it, a bunch of social-justice cranks had taken up trans as their cause du jour and indoctrinated impressionable youngsters without caring what the costs were. In the future, this will be regarded as one of the most egregious acts of medical malpractice of all time, of that I am convinced".
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I think this is probably true
 
Lost Seasider said:
Firstly, that's transgender "women", aka men, so how applicable it is to natal females is unclear. (Edit: it is of course very, very clear).

Secondly, this is of course a hotly disputed area: https://www.buttonslives.news/p/debunked-the-transgender-brain-sex

The majority of the studies on the “transgender brain” have a fatal flaw: they didn’t control for confounding variables like cross-sex hormone use and, most importantly, sexual orientation. When a study doesn't control for confounding variables, it means that the researchers did not take into account other factors that could have affected the results of the study, which make it difficult or impossible to determine whether the relationship between the two variables being studied is truly causal or a byproduct of other unrelated factors.

Cross-sex hormone use can have effects on the brain, including changes in brain structure and function. But more importantly, many trans-identifying individuals are same-sex attracted, so the research on the “transgender brain” claiming to find structural regions that resemble the opposite sex are essentially rediscovering findings on the “gay brain” and reinterpreting the results to fit their preferred conclusion.

The first “brain sex” study that did take into account the participants' sexual orientation found that the brains of transgender individuals were similar to those of people of the same birth sex rather than the opposite sex.

When researchers scan the brains of heterosexual people who identify as transgender, they also find they are typical for their natal sex. Samuel Stagg, a U.K.-based Ph.D. student of neuroimmunology, explains: “The homosexual sub-group show brains skewed along the male-female dimension. However, this is predominantly due to their co-occurring homosexuality. When we scan the brains of the heterosexual type, we find they are more typical for their natal sex.”


And https://www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/

Fewer studies have been performed on trans-identified female brains. Looking at the structural aspects of the brain where we see a sex difference the transgender brain matches natal female controls. Notably, even cortex thickness for trans-identified females matches that of natal females. (No studies exist comparing white matter). So, there is no evidence to suggest that the brains of trans-identified females are any different to any other natal female.


Edit:

One final point, even if the "trans-brain" hypothesis is correct, that is still not evidence that medical intervention is beneficial to the individual.
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You clearly haven't read the paper. The trans people they used in that study hadn't had any hormone therapy. It says that in the paragraph that I posted.

Secondly I am not using it to justify anything, other than to understand more deeply this group of people which judging by some of the responses on this thread, we need to. Something must drive their behaviour and it might well be something biological. More research is needed.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Nice try Lost. Shoehorning the BBC in there at the end is quite ingenious. Emmerdale is on ITV, but to you they are probably co-conspirators.

The problem with the biological determinism (i.e. that you can only be the sex that you were born as) argument is that it doesn't quite tell the whole story even from the biological perspective. There is increasing evidence that the brains of trans people are somewhat different to the average brain for someone of their biological sex. i.e. there is actually a measurable biological difference in the trans population from non-trans. Here is a pop science article about it, there have been many other studies since then;

www.scientificamerican.com

Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?

Imaging studies and other research suggest that there is a biological basis for transgender identity
www.scientificamerican.com www.scientificamerican.com

When our society has recognised and digested this (scientific) truth, we can perhaps have a more nuanced debate about what is the appropriate treatment for this group of people (if any) instead of dismissing it as 'nonsense'.
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These are the basic biological facts, if you produce small gametes (sperm) you are a bloke, if you produce big gametes (eggs) you're a bird... Whoops sorry mods an esteemed female human who all men should set on a pedestal. Having got that snark out of the way any physical brain difference, which probably doesn't exist anyway, makes know odds its all about gametes not chromosomes or brain structure.

I have every sympathy for those with genuine gender dysphoria and even for those who are merely autogynophiliacs but that makes sod all odds to which sex you are. We all need help from time to time which should be given.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Edit:

One final point, even if the "trans-brain" hypothesis is correct, that is still not evidence that medical intervention is beneficial to the individual.
Click to expand...

I agree with this point.
Medical intervention is generally non reversable and there needs to be some strict protocols in place before it is carried out.

It's quite interesting that you are happy to accept that the 'gay brain' exists but then use it as an argument to attack the 'trans brain' hypothesis.
If a 'gay brain' exists, which you accept, is it really very far fetched to think that a 'trans brain' could also exist?
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
I agree with this point.
Medical intervention is generally non reversable and there needs to be some strict protocols in place before it is carried out.

It's quite interesting that you are happy to accept that the 'gay brain' exists but then use it as an argument to attack the 'trans brain' hypothesis.
If a 'gay brain' exists, which you accept, is it really very far fetched to think that a 'trans brain' could also exist?
Click to expand...

How would you identify the difference between a gay and trans brain? How could any study even begin to control for that?

It seems to me that most of these trans natal males are likely in fact simply good old-fashioned gay men who've been convinced they're something else by social pressure.

In any event, there appears to be no evidence for the existence of a "trans brain" in natal females, since the surge in trans is predominantly coming from that group, even if the unproven "trans brain" hypothesis were true, you must surely accept that it is of no relevance to that group.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
When I worked at Victoria Hospial I came across a couple of distressing instances where babies were born with both genitalia. I understand that this can be corrected with surgery but what to do? Without the benefit of the developing mind it's almost impossible to know what is for the best.
Click to expand...
Nobody disputes that (very rare) intersex disorders exist, nobody disputes that gender dysphoria exists, again as a very rare condition.

What is in dispute is that these very rare conditions should be used to support what appears to be a cult being propagated for very questionable reasons.


Also, a further point about an earlier post:

1966_and_all_that said:
What if the gender dysphoria is the result of social and familial pressures?
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Surely you're arguing against trans here. If the GD is a result of social pressures, then they're not really suffering from GD, they've just been brainwashed into thinking they are, when the real problems lie elsewhere, in which case stop the bloody brainwashing in the first place.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Nobody disputes that (very rare) intersex disorders exist, nobody disputes that gender dysphoria exists, again as a very rare condition.

What is in dispute is that these very rare conditions should be used to support what appears to be a cult being propagated for very questionable reasons.


Also, a further point about an earlier post:



Surely you're arguing against trans here. If the GD is a result of social pressures, then they're not really suffering from GD, they've just been brainwashed into thinking they are, when the real problems lie elsewhere, in which case stop the bloody brainwashing in the first place.
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Are there really people going round persuading some to change sex? Brainwashing implies some are being talked into it.

No one has ever mentioned it to me.
 
Lost Seasider said:
How would you identify the difference between a gay and trans brain? How could any study even begin to control for that?
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By identifying different brain structure and function in the two groups.
That is what the research is about, here is a meta study on gay vs trans brains;

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Structural, Functional, and Metabolic Brain Differences as a Function of Gender Identity or Sexual Orientation: A Systematic Review of the Human Neuroimaging Literature

This review systematically explored structural, functional, and metabolic features of the cisgender brain compared with the transgender brain before hormonal treatment and the heterosexual brain compared to the homosexual brain from the analysis of the ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This basically says (to me) that the jury is out - some studies find differences, some don't. Some are better quality, some are not as you pointed out.

The question I would ask you, is why have trans people always existed historically and in many (if not all) different cultures?

abcnews.go.com

LGBTQ people have 'been around for forever,' historians say

Historians say that transgender and gender diverse people are not a trend or new phenomenon.
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com

This alone suggests a biological reason rather than an environmental reason.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Nobody disputes that (very rare) intersex disorders exist, nobody disputes that gender dysphoria exists, again as a very rare condition.

What is in dispute is that these very rare conditions should be used to support what appears to be a cult being propagated for very questionable reasons.


Also, a further point about an earlier post:



Surely you're arguing against trans here. If the GD is a result of social pressures, then they're not really suffering from GD, they've just been brainwashed into thinking they are, when the real problems lie elsewhere, in which case stop the bloody brainwashing in the first place.
Click to expand...
No, I'm not thinking that at all. Maybe young people perceive both family and social pressures to accept role models that they are not comfortable with, to the point where they look for other avenues through which to express themselves. This may lead to gender dysphoria as individuals come to reject their upbringing and (what they perceive to be), pressures to behave in ways.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
This is a passage from the results section;

"The observed shift away from a male-typical brain anatomy towards a female-typical one in people who identify as transgender women suggests a possible underlying neuroanatomical correlate for a female gender identity. That is, all transgender women included in this study were confirmed to be genetic males who had not undergone any gender-affirming hormone therapy. Thus, these transgender women have been subject to the influence of androgens and grown up (at least up until a certain age) in an environment that presumably treated them as males. The combination of male genes, androgens, and (to some degree) male upbringing should ordinarily be expected to result in a male-typical brain [39,40,41,42,43,44,45], making a female-typical brain anatomy extremely unlikely. Yet, the brain anatomy in the current sample of transgender women is shifted towards their gender identity—an observation that is at least partly in agreement with previous reports, as discussed in the following."

To put it simply, their brain structure is not a typically male brain - it's shifted towards a female brain. Brain structure is also biology.
Why do you think this effect can be measured scientifically?
Click to expand...
I don’t buy it, women consider themselves equal to men, especially in brain power, that’s why millions of women are now in top jobs and in government. Now they’re trying to justify their research by saying women’s brains are different to mens.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
By identifying different brain structure and function in the two groups.
That is what the research is about, here is a meta study on gay vs trans brains;

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Structural, Functional, and Metabolic Brain Differences as a Function of Gender Identity or Sexual Orientation: A Systematic Review of the Human Neuroimaging Literature

This review systematically explored structural, functional, and metabolic features of the cisgender brain compared with the transgender brain before hormonal treatment and the heterosexual brain compared to the homosexual brain from the analysis of the ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
This basically says (to me) that the jury is out - some studies find differences, some don't. Some are better quality, some are not as you pointed out.
Click to expand...
It seems to me there's a fundamental problem separating out the genuine GD cases from the "socially trans" and other confounding variables, especially when, as you admit, the evidence for a "trans brain" is very weak.


ElBurroSinNombre said:
he question I would ask you, is why have trans people always existed historically and in many (if not all) different cultures?

abcnews.go.com

LGBTQ people have 'been around for forever,' historians say

Historians say that transgender and gender diverse people are not a trend or new phenomenon.
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com
This alone suggests a biological reason rather than an environmental reason.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a reinterpretation of history, or cultural traditions, to support the modern day trans cult, and seems very poor evidence to me.

In any event, nobody disputes that GD and intersex conditions exist, just that they are very rare and are not adequate support for the cult.

Finally, none of what you have posted has any relevance to natal females, who appear to be the primary victims of the trans cult.
 
Lost Seasider said:
It seems to me there's a fundamental problem separating out the genuine GD cases from the "socially trans" and other confounding variables, especially when, as you admit, the evidence for a "trans brain" is very weak.




That sounds like a reinterpretation of history, or cultural traditions, to support the modern day trans cult, and seems very poor evidence to me.

In any event, nobody disputes that GD and intersex conditions exist, just that they are very rare and are not adequate support for the cult.

Finally, none of what you have posted has any relevance to natal females, who appear to be the primary victims of the trans cult.
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I haven't admitted anything. I'm just broadening the debate. It's an area of research that is very interesting and will inform the trans debate. It's all about trying to understand things as they are, not as we would like them to be. Talk of 'cults' isn't helpful.
If there is no biological cause of trans behavior, as it seems you would prefer to believe, why on earth would somebody identify as being a different sex to their natal sex? It seems like a lot of trouble to go to. These people, generally IMO, have a need to do what they do. It must be very, very difficult to be in their position, particularly when there are so many uninformed and dismissive attitudes towards them around. They are essentially putting themselves in the position of social pariahs to a lot of society. Why on earth would anybody do that if they didn't need to?
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I haven't admitted anything. I'm just broadening the debate. It's an area of research that is very interesting and will inform the trans debate. It's all about trying to understand things as they are, not as we would like them to be. Talk of 'cults' isn't helpful.
If there is no biological cause of trans behavior, as it seems you would prefer to believe, why on earth would somebody identify as being a different sex to their natal sex? It seems like a lot of trouble to go to. These people, generally IMO, have a need to do what they do. It must be very, very difficult to be in their position, particularly when there are so many uninformed and dismissive attitudes towards them around. They are essentially putting themselves in the position of social pariahs to a lot of society. Why on earth would anybody do that if they didn't need to?
Click to expand...

Either way, do you accept that there appears to be zero evidence for a "trans brain" that is relevant to natal females?


Edit:

In terms of "cult", we're talking about some strange beliefs, totally unsupported by scientific evidence, that have become popular and fashionable in certain parts of society, that's the dictionary definition of a cult.
 
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Lost Seasider said:
Either way, do you accept that there appears to be zero evidence for a "trans brain" that is relevant to natal females?


Edit:

In terms of "cult", we're talking about some strange beliefs, totally unsupported by scientific evidence, that have become popular and fashionable in certain parts of society, that's the dictionary definition of a cult.
Click to expand...
I don't accept that completely, I haven't searched for it specifically. I'm sure there have been studies on it and more research will be carried out..
Do you accept that some evidence does exist for the trans brain in mtf trans cases?
If we accepted your very broad definition of cults there would be a lot of them, all religions for instance.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Either way, do you accept that there appears to be zero evidence for a "trans brain" that is relevant to natal females?


Edit:

In terms of "cult", we're talking about some strange beliefs, totally unsupported by scientific evidence, that have become popular and fashionable in certain parts of society, that's the dictionary definition of a cult.
Click to expand...
Like Christianity then.

and no, I do not accept your reasoning. Your insistence - evidenced in your posts - of there being no possibility of naturally occurring stimulators of transexual behaviours, forestalls (for you) any concerns there may be for the welfare of individuals going through that trauma.
 
My job brings me into contact with both men and women who are Trans and their families.
Each case is unique, each case is taken on it's merits and each case has years and years of discussion, examination and goals that are set before they even begin the major 'transformation' which cant be reversed.

Most in the North are referred to Leeds's and the waiting list for this process is (i was told) 6 - 8 years...
So not a passing phase or sudden 'trend' to change sex that people imagine in their minds or read about in the Daily Mail

I have contact with one lady who said she was gutted because she lost her daughter and then gained a son....but she really missed her daughter
But she knew her daughter would be dead by now, if her son hadn't appeared.....this took him 15 years.
And his family are OK with it, they know he's happy and safe....don't think they spent that much time talking about genitalia!!!

This has always been around since the 1st Century....Today, it's about the access on the NHS and the development of surgery that's expanded it.
In the 60's & 70's it was an expensive op in Turkey.....but it was very popular and thousands had it done.

So here's a little stat to make you think
Statistically, a Man is more likely to commit suicide compared to trans-gender person
You know....you 'normal' northern men....Wife, kids, jobs, mortgages.....Makes you wonder who's the most f##ked up??
 
B_Side_The_C_Side said:
My job brings me into contact with both men and women who are Trans and their families.
Each case is unique, each case is taken on it's merits and each case has years and years of discussion, examination and goals that are set before they even begin the major 'transformation' which cant be reversed.

Most in the North are referred to Leeds's and the waiting list for this process is (i was told) 6 - 8 years...
So not a passing phase or sudden 'trend' to change sex that people imagine in their minds or read about in the Daily Mail

I have contact with one lady who said she was gutted because she lost her daughter and then gained a son....but she really missed her daughter
But she knew her daughter would be dead by now, if her son hadn't appeared.....this took him 15 years.
And his family are OK with it, they know he's happy and safe....don't think they spent that much time talking about genitalia!!!

This has always been around since the 1st Century....Today, it's about the access on the NHS and the development of surgery that's expanded it.
In the 60's & 70's it was an expensive op in Turkey.....but it was very popular and thousands had it done.

So here's a little stat to make you think
Statistically, a Man is more likely to commit suicide compared to trans-gender person
You know....you 'normal' northern men....Wife, kids, jobs, mortgages.....Makes you wonder who's the most f##ked up??
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Excellent post - there are real people at the centre of all of this.
Glad also that you recognise the historical aspect, that perhaps suggests a biological root.
It's being used as a part of a culture war atm - I am certain we will accept and move on in the future.
We have witnessed the same process with both race and homosexuality in our society in my lifetime.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I don't accept that completely, I haven't searched for it specifically. I'm sure there have been studies on it and more research will be carried out..
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I have provided sources that claim no studies in the area show a "trans brain" in natal females, the fact that there are few studies in the area seems to suggest that is the consensus position among researchers.


ElBurroSinNombre said:
Do you accept that some evidence does exist for the trans brain in mtf trans cases?
Click to expand...
Weak and unreliable evidence that appears to point in either direction, the "trans brain" hypothesis remains unproven, and is not the established fact that some seem to think it is.


ElBurroSinNombre said:
If we accepted your very broad definition of cults there would be a lot of them, all religions for instance.
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I am happy to describe all religions as cults.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I have provided sources that claim no studies in the area show a "trans brain" in natal females, the fact that there are few studies in the area seems to suggest that is the consensus position among researchers.



Weak and unreliable evidence that appears to point in either direction, the "trans brain" hypothesis remains unproven, and is not the established fact that some seem to think it is.



I am happy to describe all religions as cults.
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It's funny isn't it.
Scientific studies that support your world view are cut and dried and the final word on everything.
Scientific studies that don't support your world view are unreliable and unproven.

It seems that often you start from the conclusion that you want and work backwards from there.

The truth probably lies somewhere in-between in all of this. Clearly there is something going on that causes these people to behave in this way ( a way that will cause them massive inconvenience in their daily lives). And there are probably environmental triggers as well as biological ones. This doesn't make anybody's experience less valid btw. Earlier on you dismissed it all as 'nonsense'.

Of course science doesn't know everything but it will formulate hypothesis and test them. This is the key to our future understanding.
 
Lost Seasider said:
In terms of "cult", we're talking about some strange beliefs, totally unsupported by scientific evidence, that have become popular and fashionable in certain parts of society, that's the dictionary definition of a cult.
Click to expand...

Bit like religion then, except nowhere near as harmful.

They're just people getting on with their lives posing no threat to anyone else, leave them the fuck alone eh?
 
1966_and_all_that said:
and no, I do not accept your reasoning. Your insistence - evidenced in your posts - of there being no possibility of naturally occurring stimulators of transexual behaviours, forestalls (for you) any concerns there may be for the welfare of individuals going through that trauma.
Click to expand...

To be clear, gender dysphoria is a recognized condition estimated to occur in somewhere between 1/8000 - 1/20,000 adult natal males (1/20,000 - 1/40,000 females), and I certainly don't discount natural factors in those cases, what I dispute is:
  • that any study can reliably identify these differences in a "trans brain";
  • that any evidence for a "trans brain" in natal females can be found;
  • that any of this would explain the current trans craze, especially among young females.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
Bit like religion then, except nowhere near as harmful.

They're just people getting on with their lives posing no threat to anyone else, leave them the fuck alone eh?
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I'd say that most are actually victims of this cult, and performing irreversible medical treatments on young girls and women, which they later come to regret, might be considered fairly harmful, Keira Bell being the poster child for this.

I'm happy to leave the victims alone, my ire is directed at the cult leaders plus the useful fools who help them.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
The truth probably lies somewhere in-between in all of this. Clearly there is something going on that causes these people to behave in this way ( a way that will cause them massive inconvenience in their daily lives). And there are probably environmental triggers as well as biological ones. This doesn't make anybody's experience less valid btw. Earlier on you dismissed it all as 'nonsense'.
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Deleted, offensive content.
 
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Lost Seasider said:
To be clear, gender dysphoria is a recognized condition estimated to occur in somewhere between 1/8000 - 1/20,000 adult natal males (1/20,000 - 1/40,000 females), and I certainly don't discount natural factors in those cases, what I dispute is:
  • that any study can reliably identify these differences in a "trans brain";
  • that any evidence for a "trans brain" in natal females can be found;
  • that any of this would explain the current trans craze, especially among young females.
Click to expand...
And my point stands. Why can you not bring yourself to recognise and accept the need for support of those suffering from this condition.
 
Lost Seasider said:
offensive content.
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How do you know all this?
Can you provide some evidence to support this rather astonishing claim or is it just wishful thinking on your part?
Have you ever considered that people might know more about what they want for themselves than the agenda driven columnists of the Daily Telegraph?
 
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Isn't it more simple in Thailand, with ladyboys... rather than... "they are women" etc.

The issues many people have is not what others do behind closed doors etc, but when a tiny minority has a major effect on wider society.

Safe female spaces, children with impressionable minds etc.

When you throw some of the 'I can identify as anything' logical back at someone using it, suddenly its rubbished.

Why can't I identify as 60 years old? 18 again maybe? Why not a different race?

Where does it end?
 
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