Transgender athlete qualifies for womens olympic weightlifting

1966_and_all_that said:
I think it's wrong and that transgender people should not be allowed to compete in sport for their chosen gender. There were many years when our female athletes suffered an unfair disadvantage because of the drugs used routinely by the iron-curtain countries. Now that is removed I think it only fair that a trans-gender advantage should also be ruled out.
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I can imaginne the Russki's fielding a squads of eunuchs for the women's sports teams.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I have no problem with anyone transitioning, though I would question exactly what it is that they transition into. It’s pretty insulting to suggest that being a Female is simply a ‘state of mind’ or for that matter a straightforward matter of reassignment surgery or hormonal modification…. They will never be biologically Male or Female, regardless.

So to that extent I don’t think it unreasonable to refuse access to competition that is currently categorised by biological sex. Whether there’s an argument to consider alternative classification for sports people I’m not sure.. One thing that I’m certain about is that we cannot simply shoehorn individuals into existing biologically determined categories and call that OK, because unfair advantage, to the point of diminishing the value of the competition and potentially excluding the highly skilled / competent female athletes from competition…. Crikey, women have fought long and hard to gain parity with their male counterparts in sport and then all of a sudden we think it’s acceptable for men to shove them to one side and essentially dominate their sport by stealth?

It’s also not remotely narrow minded to call ‘her’ a sports cheat. At the end of the day she is engaged in the competition in the full knowledge that she was grossly incapable of competing anywhere near this level in male competition and that under normal circumstances even her age would render competition at such a high level to be practically impossible. However such is her physical advantage (due to essentially being a biological male) she can suddenly ‘compete’ at Olympic level.🤔
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That argument has been made time and time again, it's another topic that goes round and round in circles with the usual accusations of isms and phobes if you happen to disagree.
 
If you only have to actually identify as female and not have any operations then it raises the issue that some blokes may do it who just want access to women’s locker and shower rooms to ogle.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I have no problem with anyone transitioning, though I would question exactly what it is that they transition into. It’s pretty insulting to suggest that being a Female is simply a ‘state of mind’ or for that matter a straightforward matter of reassignment surgery or hormonal modification…. They will never be biologically Male or Female, regardless.

So to that extent I don’t think it unreasonable to refuse access to competition that is currently categorised by biological sex. Whether there’s an argument to consider alternative classification for sports people I’m not sure.. One thing that I’m certain about is that we cannot simply shoehorn individuals into existing biologically determined categories and call that OK, because unfair advantage, to the point of diminishing the value of the competition and potentially excluding the highly skilled / competent female athletes from competition…. Crikey, women have fought long and hard to gain parity with their male counterparts in sport and then all of a sudden we think it’s acceptable for men to shove them to one side and essentially dominate their sport by stealth?

You mention her livelihood, yet zero recognition of the livelihood of those her inclusion affects. Female Athletes who’s achievements are based on merit as opposed to a very obvious biological advantage.

It’s also not remotely narrow minded to call ‘her’ a sports cheat. At the end of the day she is engaged in the competition in the full knowledge that she was grossly incapable of competing anywhere near this level in male competition and that under normal circumstances even her age would render competition at such a high level to be practically impossible. However such is her physical advantage (due to essentially being a biological male) she can suddenly ‘compete’ at Olympic level.🤔
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I agree being female isn’t just a state of mind, but at the same time if a person’s mental health is benefited from such a change then I’d say that’s a pretty fair reason to make the change, and you can’t then judge to what degree someone is a man or woman. It works both ways, is it insulting for a woman to transition? Would the same argument be made that it’s not just a state of mind?

As I’ve said, my opinion of the actual subject is tricky because I don’t know the right answer. I do see that she would have an unfair advantage, but at the same time I don’t think it’s fair or inclusive to have trans events. There could be an argument for having non contact sports mixed in some cases but that again opens up a new can of worms.

The point is she shouldn’t be labelled as a ‘sports cheat’ as she’s not set out with the intention of transitioning just for sporting gain. She has clearly felt that transitioning would enhance her life, and alongside that has had a lifelong hobby of power lifting, as a teenager she set records. If she then transitions and continues to compete in the sport she loves but is at a higher standard she is clearly going to pursue it, i don’t think many would do otherwise if they found them self in that very niche circumstance.
 
Clearly unfair and stretching the boundaries of political correctness way too far...

(Even though I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Kiwi)
 
Utmp15 said:
I agree being female isn’t just a state of mind, but at the same time if a person’s mental health is benefited from such a change then I’d say that’s a pretty fair reason to make the change, and you can’t then judge to what degree someone is a man or woman. It works both ways, is it insulting for a woman to transition? Would the same argument be made that it’s not just a state of mind?

As I’ve said, my opinion of the actual subject is tricky because I don’t know the right answer. I do see that she would have an unfair advantage, but at the same time I don’t think it’s fair or inclusive to have trans events. There could be an argument for having non contact sports mixed in some cases but that again opens up a new can of worms.

The point is she shouldn’t be labelled as a ‘sports cheat’ as she’s not set out with the intention of transitioning just for sporting gain. She has clearly felt that transitioning would enhance her life, and alongside that has had a lifelong hobby of power lifting, as a teenager she set records. If she then transitions and continues to compete in the sport she loves but is at a higher standard she is clearly going to pursue it, i don’t think many would do otherwise if they found them self in that very niche circumstance.
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In terms of mental health, I think there's a whole discussion to be had about acceptance TBH and I think that applies to a whole range of issues that relate to body confidence. I'm not entirely convinced that the types of surgical or pharmaceutical intervention are the answer personally, but that said, I'm not qualified to make tany particular judgement or argument in that regard, though from what experience I do have, acceptance is typically the way to genuine and lasting peace of mind.

In regard to this idea of "Making the change" of course you can judge to what degree someone is a man or a woman. If they are born biologically male, then they are simply a male regardless and 'degree' doesn't come into the equation.

I'm not really sure why we are required to have 'inclusivity' really? Both biological males and females are at liberty to compete in any sport of their choosing. The issues will only arise (as they would for any other athlete) if they are taking prohibited drugs or they are attempting to compete in the incorrect biological category.

As I said, the only other alternative, might be to completely overhaul how we categorise sports people, but I really don't see the need and TBH I think it would likely make an extremely straightforward distinction unecessarily complicated, just to satisfy a very small number of individuals. At the end of the day, I'd love to compete at the Olympics, but I had to accept that I didn't meet the grade...Tough Shit, that;s life etc... Are the olympics not exclusive because they don't make allowances for slightly overweight bald blokes, who eat and drink too much?

And again I disagree that she shouldn't be labelled a sports cheat.... As I said, she has seen female competitors excluded from gaining their olympic place and knowingly competes at the highest level in the full knowledge that she has a totally unfair physical advantage when compered to the other competitors. So she knows full well she has a completely unfair advantage and continues to compete... It's cheating plain and simple.

EDIT: Interesting article HERE and possible solution as to how trans people can be accomodated in competition, without impacting on how they feel about their gender identification.
 
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Utmp15 said:
I agree being female isn’t just a state of mind, but at the same time if a person’s mental health is benefited from such a change then I’d say that’s a pretty fair reason to make the change, and you can’t then judge to what degree someone is a man or woman. It works both ways, is it insulting for a woman to transition? Would the same argument be made that it’s not just a state of mind?

As I’ve said, my opinion of the actual subject is tricky because I don’t know the right answer. I do see that she would have an unfair advantage, but at the same time I don’t think it’s fair or inclusive to have trans events. There could be an argument for having non contact sports mixed in some cases but that again opens up a new can of worms.

The point is she shouldn’t be labelled as a ‘sports cheat’ as she’s not set out with the intention of transitioning just for sporting gain. She has clearly felt that transitioning would enhance her life, and alongside that has had a lifelong hobby of power lifting, as a teenager she set records. If she then transitions and continues to compete in the sport she loves but is at a higher standard she is clearly going to pursue it, i don’t think many would do otherwise if they found them self in that very niche circumstance.
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But if a gay individual does not want to be gay and wants treatment to combat it that individual is told to get therapy to accept himself/herself. That gay therapy as I understand is illegal and yet body mutilation seems quite acceptable to a lot of people. Why are transgender people not told to take therapy to accept who and what they are? Seems we have now started to delve into the realms of mad scientists, is that what all those experiments on helpless animals have led us to?
 
How the hell can this be allowed when Caster Semenyer isn’t able to run in her favoured event without undergoing weird medical treatments?
 
Whilst I understand the talking points with a trans athlete and her/his desire or right to compete in sport, that cannot come at the expense of other people's rights to do the same on an equal footing. Whether its a male transitioning or a female transitioning we cannot ignore their birth biology because whilst men and women absolutely should be treated equally, biologically we are different. This is the same in medicine, to diagnose or treat a condition, gender at birth cannot be ignored as males and females are different biologically and it can make a big difference in diagnosing a condition.
I wish her well but can't help thinking that her rights seem to have trumped the rights of female born athletes which i find wrong.
 
This is another case of one persons rights versus someone else's.

Transgender female versus female. JK Rowling got in big bother by raising the rights of females to safe spaces.

Like NI and the EU, there is no right answer for everyone.
 
The sad thing is now she is the most famous person in women's weightlifting, no doubt will earn big bucks by sponsorships, TV appearances and prize money.
The other women that some might of taken up in their teens don't get anyone recognition apart from those in the sport.

Men compete against men, women against women, if they want to put in sports trans section let her/him win it as got to be equal playing field.
The thing that highlights it more its a sports event that uses strength other sports maybe but not weight lifting.
 
Memphisboy said:
If you only have to actually identify as female and not have any operations then it raises the issue that some blokes may do it who just want access to women’s locker and shower rooms to ogle.
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Does that say more about your mindset than transgender people?😉
 
The IOC allowable testosterone rate is 5x that of the average female competitor. That's quite a wide tolerance for natural occurrences.

It will be interesting to see how many unsuccessful male athletes change their gender and compete against women.

And let's be honest, that's plenty of totalitarian regimes thinking how many of their athletes are capable of bringing home gold with a change of pronoun. Absolutely inevitable.
 
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TSSeasider said:
The IOC allowable testosterone rate is 5x that of the average female competitor. That's quite a wide tolerance for natural occurrences.

It will be interesting to see how many unsuccessful make athletes change their gender and compete against women.

And let's be honest, that's plenty of totalitarian regimes thinking how many of their athletes are capable of bringing home gold with a change of pronoun. Absolutely inevitable.
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I remember watching some gymnastics a few years ago when a Chinese female looked incredibly suspicious.
 
If I decided to transition to female and was still young enough to compete etc, I honestly don't think I would have the nerve to compete against biological women. I would feel like I had an unfair advantage. I don't really have any respect for people who choose to use that advantage for their own ends. I have no problem whatsoever with their decision to transition.
 
voyeur said:
If I decided to transition to female and was still young enough to compete etc, I honestly don't think I would have the nerve to compete against biological women. I would feel like I had an unfair advantage. I don't really have any respect for people who choose to use that advantage for their own ends. I have no problem whatsoever with their decision to transition.
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I suppose its the reason behind the transition. If you're switching out of a deep sense of unhappiness because of your birth gender and desperate to change then that's one thing. If the underlying reason is to compete in the Olympics then that's a whole different kettle of fish.
 
Wizaard said:
I suppose its the reason behind the transition. If you're switching out of a deep sense of unhappiness because of your birth gender and desperate to change then that's one thing. If the underlying reason is to compete in the Olympics then that's a whole different kettle of fish.
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I'm pretty sure that there's nobody who has transitioned BECAUSE they want to compete in the Olympics.

Even so, i think there has to be an acceptance that whilst medical advances have allowed for great moves to accommodate the human condition and mental 'turmoil' created by a person's beliefs around their gender, there are certain roads that are going to be closed. We simply can't have it all, all of the time and there's a fundamental issue around fairness that needs to be applied in this situation.
 
Wizaard said:
I suppose its the reason behind the transition. If you're switching out of a deep sense of unhappiness because of your birth gender and desperate to change then that's one thing. If the underlying reason is to compete in the Olympics then that's a whole different kettle of fish.
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I don't think the reason matters, I wouldn't feel entitled to compete with biological women.
 
Utmp15 said:
I understand this is a forum for opinions but people would not be so blatantly racist on here as they are being transphobic. Regardless of your opinion on whether she should be able to compete (which personally I see as a tricky one. I think she’s undergone treatment for levelling out hormones to the average level for other elite female athletes and that has been given time to take affect, then that mitigates then advantage) the post has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she has transitioned so calling her him or even ‘shim’ not only is out of order and narrow minded but it’s nothing to do with the original post.
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The reduction of testosterone to the required levels DOESNT mitigate the advantage. I watched an interview with Sharon Davies yesterday in which she pointed out that Trans females have gone through their bodies’ formative years as a male, so bone density and muscle density are already that of a males, giving them a massive advantage of between 10-20% over females sporting results (depending on the sport).
 
As my sad used to say tears before this debate
"If your aunt had a coq she'd be toyr uncle "
Think it was aimed at the phrase what if but makes sense in this context
 
Bisphamtang said:
As my sad used to say tears before this debate
"If your aunt had a coq she'd be toyr uncle "
Think it was aimed at the phrase what if but makes sense in this context
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I wouldn't bring Toyah's uncle into this. She might Fripp. It'd ends in tears. Sad ones. 😉
 
Magic147 said:
It's not transphobic to suggest that this is bullshit FFS.

She is biologically a male and therefore should not be able to compete in women's sport. Anybody suggesting anything different has completely lost the plot.
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C'mon magic, you know if you disagree with some people opinions you are some kind of 'ist or 'phobe, it's got bloody boring seeing those accusations in every discussion.
 
Magic147 said:
You'll get that a lot of you're racist though.
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I notice the Royal Academy has done a u-turn on their decision not to stock any of Jess de Walhs work because of her "biological sex cannot be changed" belief. At the present time that may be true, but sometime in the future? I can see it happenning when the mad scientists are through experimenting on these deluded fools.
 
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