Wh9 is going to pay for this shit?

B

Bisphamtang

Well-known member
I am a Labour supporting trade unionist but consider myself realistic and not an ideologue ,just believe values of community and social justice are important


However on this Covid issue I have been finding myself isolated
Constantly reading furlough needscto be extended, (today) sick pat should be increased we need to save aviation, hospitality sector etc etc

Generally get it and understand where it's coming from but ...

Who the fk is going to pay for this unprecedented spending (ie. Borrowing)

No point in saying Amazon, Google ,Starbucks cos it ain't enough

Fully expect hike in income tax,end of triple lock pensions, increase in corporation tax but will that cover this shite

All for investment but surely furlough, increases financial support certian industries is going to cost

I'm still 14 years ofc retirement and working but surely we are not going to lose the kids with all this debt

Don't claim to be an economist but does anybody else wonder how much this is going to cost - Cor
 
Bisphamtang said:
I am a Labour supporting trade unionist but consider myself realistic and not an ideologue ,just believe values of community and social justice are important


However on this Covid issue I have been finding myself isolated
Constantly reading furlough needscto be extended, (today) sick pat should be increased we need to save aviation, hospitality sector etc etc

Generally get it and understand where it's coming from but ...

Who the fk is going to pay for this unprecedented spending (ie. Borrowing)

No point in saying Amazon, Google ,Starbucks cos it ain't enough

Fully expect hike in income tax,end of triple lock pensions, increase in corporation tax but will that cover this shite

All for investment but surely furlough, increases financial support certian industries is going to cost

I'm still 14 years ofc retirement and working but surely we are not going to lose the kids with all this debt

Don't claim to be an economist but does anybody else wonder how much this is going to cost - Cor
Click to expand...
Pensions will be reduced, child benefit scrapped, benefits frozen, but top end tax and corporation tax will remain unchanged if not reduced "to stimulate the economy". Self interest as always
 
Bisphamtang said:
I am a Labour supporting trade unionist but consider myself realistic and not an ideologue ,just believe values of community and social justice are important


However on this Covid issue I have been finding myself isolated
Constantly reading furlough needscto be extended, (today) sick pat should be increased we need to save aviation, hospitality sector etc etc

Generally get it and understand where it's coming from but ...

Who the fk is going to pay for this unprecedented spending (ie. Borrowing)

No point in saying Amazon, Google ,Starbucks cos it ain't enough

Fully expect hike in income tax,end of triple lock pensions, increase in corporation tax but will that cover this shite

All for investment but surely furlough, increases financial support certian industries is going to cost

I'm still 14 years ofc retirement and working but surely we are not going to lose the kids with all this debt

Don't claim to be an economist but does anybody else wonder how much this is going to cost - Cor
Click to expand...
Welcome to my dilemma, There is no money tree, we will all pay eventually 🥴
 
Wizaard said:
Pensions will be reduced, child benefit scrapped, benefits frozen, but top end tax and corporation tax will remain unchanged if not reduced "to stimulate the economy". Self interest as always
Click to expand...
I don’t think that’s what the chancellor’s exposed notes confirmed.
Massive tax hikes across the wealthy are definitely on the cards. They won’t scrap child benefits for the lower earners.
The workers, earners and high earners also will pay. No other solution.
 
The biggest problem will be getting the workers back to work when the furlough payments end. The country can't keep paying everyone's wages for much longer and the rest of us will have to pick up the tab.
 
With interest rates at historic lows there's plenty of scope for movement. I think one thing we can be sure of is that no Government will be setting short-term targets which should alleviate the immediate need for austerity or huge tax rises. The triple-lock pension has probably had its' day though - it was designed to bring pensioners up to the standards of workers but now the shoe seems on the other foot.
 
If anyone thinks the Tories will hit the wealthiest the hardest they're living in cloud cuckoo land. The main reason they have been so successful at winning elections is that they have been bankrolled by the millionaires and billionaires. I can't see them biting the hand that feeds them.
 
The economy will crumble if we don’t all pay.
Those that contribute anyways.
Time will tell and until then I reserve judgement on how this will pan out.
A total lockdown of society and the economy really hasn’t happened in any of our lifetimes so it’s really not possible for anybody to predict with certainty how any government will react.
Why don’t we score points after the event for a change 🙄
 
Lala said:
I don’t think that’s what the chancellor’s exposed notes confirmed.
Massive tax hikes across the wealthy are definitely on the cards. They won’t scrap child benefits for the lower earners.
The workers, earners and high earners also will pay. No other solution.
Click to expand...

Suspect you are right Lala, particularly with regard to higher (or I would say MIDDLE) earners. But as you say everyone will end up paying.
Good points about the Tories and high end earners raised in the thread already, which is why I'm of the view that they often target basic and middle earners. I'm certainly not in the know at all, but I hope this summary helps.

I have attached a lengthy report I found whilst browsing (go straight to page 40 for the quick look-up table for how much each action would raise - it related to labour manifesto and NHS funding at the last election, but the figures are helpful)

Main Points:
£6Bn raised (pa) if 1% on income tax rate (only £1.2m of this would be from higher rate payers) - basic rate payers suffer more
£10.8 Bn if pension contribution tax relief if restricted to basic rate (20%) - this would hit middle earners harder.
£6Bn if personal thresholds are frozen - everyone suffers

£53.2Bn raised if all zero/reduced VAT rates removed 😧
£28.9Bn if VAT exemptions removed

No idea what they will do personally, but I feel sorry for workers , particularly the young who are likely to be paying for this for many years.
 
Dave62 said:
Suspect you are right Lala, particularly with regard to higher (or I would say MIDDLE) earners. But as you say everyone will end up paying.
Good points about the Tories and high end earners raised in the thread already, which is why I'm of the view that they often target basic and middle earners. I'm certainly not in the know at all, but I hope this summary helps.

I have attached a lengthy report I found whilst browsing (go straight to page 40 for the quick look-up table for how much each action would raise - it related to labour manifesto and NHS funding at the last election, but the figures are helpful)

Main Points:
£6Bn raised (pa) if 1% on income tax rate (only £1.2m of this would be from higher rate payers) - basic rate payers suffer more
£10.8 Bn if pension contribution tax relief if restricted to basic rate (20%) - this would hit middle earners harder.
£6Bn if personal thresholds are frozen - everyone suffers

£53.2Bn raised if all zero/reduced VAT rates removed 😧
£28.9Bn if VAT exemptions removed

No idea what they will do personally, but I feel sorry for workers , particularly the young who are likely to be paying for this for many years.
Click to expand...
Total agree.. Will read article now 👍
 
the low hanging fruit of a very small personal wealth tax for those claiming to be billionaires and those with wealth over 500 million, a very small additional corporate profit tax for profits over 1 billion sterling maybe start at 500 million, make the tech companies pay tax on earnings, at the moment i think it is amazon who have the tax profile of a corner shop in the UK. Change the tax profile for unearned income increase and progresively higher rates, also change the tax rate for banks when they lend for asset growth, about 70% of lending currently (mortgages excluded).

allied to that would be to progressively reduce tax for all workers eventually to around 19%. lower and middle income earners spend more in the economy which stimulates growth and increases the tax take in general.
We ran the calculations recently it would easily cover the costs of UK Covid issues.
 
I know who's going to pay for it. We all are. Every last one of us.

Regardless of how little or much you think the poor or rich should be taxed... we're all going to pay for this for years to come. I'm not arguing that it's worth it or isn't. Just stating a fact.
 
GTFsTwinBrother said:
I know who's going to pay for it. We all are. Every last one of us.

Regardless of how little or much you think the poor or rich should be taxed... we're all going to pay for this for years to come. I'm not arguing that it's worth it or isn't. Just stating a fact.
Click to expand...
Absolutely right. The greater number of people who pay, the less burden on each, even though each will feel it. A policy to try and minimise the risk of severe discontent. Sadly, the Uber-rich are not that great in number and even if you try and soak them, they will be able to pay their accountants/banksters enough to hide their assets abroad.
 
It should be paid for by long-term borrowing.

Interest rates are at an historically low level. Many investors are awash with money and would happily lend this to the Government as it'd be a rock solid investment.

During and after the First World War the then Government raised millions of pounds (equivalent to billions now) issuing War Stock and Bonds at much higher rates of interest than we have now. There's absolutely nothing wrong in borrowing in times of emergency, and by the time the debt matures it will have a much lower value in real terms.
 
Ollygon said:
It should be paid for by long-term borrowing.

Interest rates are at an historically low level. Many investors are awash with money and would happily lend this to the Government as it'd be a rock solid investment.

During and after the First World War the then Government raised millions of pounds (equivalent to billions now) issuing War Stock and Bonds at much higher rates of interest than we have now. There's absolutely nothing wrong in borrowing in times of emergency, and by the time the debt matures it will have a much lower value in real terms.
Click to expand...
There's a misconception dating back to Thatchers time that public finances are akin to a household. The image became prevalent then that we need to balance the books at all times or we'd face dire consequences. It was wrong then and still is. There is simply no comparison and nor should there be. Spending on infrastructure projects such as HS2 is a good thing because it generates tax revenues and keeps local business going. It's exactly what Government should be doing, not reducing spending, as that will simply exacerbate the financial situation.
 
Dave62 said:
Suspect you are right Lala, particularly with regard to higher (or I would say MIDDLE) earners. But as you say everyone will end up paying.
Good points about the Tories and high end earners raised in the thread already, which is why I'm of the view that they often target basic and middle earners. I'm certainly not in the know at all, but I hope this summary helps.

I have attached a lengthy report I found whilst browsing (go straight to page 40 for the quick look-up table for how much each action would raise - it related to labour manifesto and NHS funding at the last election, but the figures are helpful)

Main Points:
£6Bn raised (pa) if 1% on income tax rate (only £1.2m of this would be from higher rate payers) - basic rate payers suffer more
£10.8 Bn if pension contribution tax relief if restricted to basic rate (20%) - this would hit middle earners harder.
£6Bn if personal thresholds are frozen - everyone suffers

£53.2Bn raised if all zero/reduced VAT rates removed 😧
£28.9Bn if VAT exemptions removed

No idea what they will do personally, but I feel sorry for workers , particularly the young who are likely to be paying for this for many years.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Dave.
I have just altered my pension contributions in case the second point is enacted (this one - £10.8 Bn if pension contribution tax relief if restricted to basic rate (20%) - this would hit middle earners harder).
I am not sure that this would be a good move because;
- it effects many natural Conservative voters
- it is a disincentive to save for retirement
- most of the tax saving gets spent in the UK economy albeit at a later date
- some / most of the tax saving gets taxed as income at a later date, leaving the government open to arguments of taxing income twice

Is the next budget in the Spring or is there an earlier mini COVID budget to raise a bit of cash?
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Thanks for that Dave.
I have just altered my pension contributions in case the second point is enacted (this one - £10.8 Bn if pension contribution tax relief if restricted to basic rate (20%) - this would hit middle earners harder).
I am not sure that this would be a good move because;
- it effects many natural Conservative voters
- it is a disincentive to save for retirement
- most of the tax saving gets spent in the UK economy albeit at a later date
- some / most of the tax saving gets taxed as income at a later date, leaving the government open to arguments of taxing income twice

Is the next budget in the Spring or is there an earlier mini COVID budget to raise a bit of cash?
Click to expand...
Next budget is in the Autumn. The specific date has yet to be announced I believe, although someone mentioned October to me this morning.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Thanks for that Dave.
I have just altered my pension contributions in case the second point is enacted (this one - £10.8 Bn if pension contribution tax relief if restricted to basic rate (20%) - this would hit middle earners harder).
I am not sure that this would be a good move because;
- it effects many natural Conservative voters
- it is a disincentive to save for retirement
- most of the tax saving gets spent in the UK economy albeit at a later date
- some / most of the tax saving gets taxed as income at a later date, leaving the government open to arguments of taxing income twice

Is the next budget in the Spring or is there an earlier mini COVID budget to raise a bit of cash?
Click to expand...

Yep, as Mex says, there is an Autumn budget but no date has been announced yet.
I attached the document to show how much the government could hypothetically raise for each action, but as you and others have pointed out already, most/all actions would impede any recovery to the economy / consumer spending, so in my view I think the recovery will be a long term effort (how can it not be?). Surely the Chancellor should be considering ways to stimulate the economy (as he has during the pandemic to be fair), rather than short to medium term proposals to recover revenues?

You raise a good point about paying tax twice, this potentially being on the earnings over the basic rate of course.

As I said last night, I think we'll all be paying for this for many years to come, especially the young sadly. I would be interested to see a little more detail in what Costero Poderoso was suggesting.
 
You really ought to read this article by Marina Hyde. It’s both perceptive and funny. The first picture sums it all up. The manic ** cannot even button his shirt up properly.
www.theguardian.com

The Tories' biggest trick? Convincing the world they have a cunning plan | Marina Hyde

As the cock-ups continue to pile up, some people bizarrely still seem to think it’s all part of an ingenious strategy, says Guardian columnist Marina Hyde
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

The Govt is simply making it up as they go along and Cummings has them all transfixed that he is a genius somehow, with Rasputin-like cunning. It was obvious in Bozo’s press statement yesterday. At times, he would be talking normally and apparently rationally about the difficulties then he would pause, his eyes glaze over as the Cummings presence intruded into his mind, and then suddenly bark something about the “Rule of Six”.

Another meaningless three-word soundbite, conveying zero sound advice, given that pubs, cinemas, restaurants are all still open and anyone can easily get around the rules. And who are the Covid Commissars who are going to try and enforce it?
 
Last edited:
Archibald Knox said:
You really ought to read this article by Marina Hyde. It’s both perceptive and funny. The first picture sums it all up. The manic ** cannot even button his shirt up properly.
www.theguardian.com

The Tories' biggest trick? Convincing the world they have a cunning plan | Marina Hyde

As the cock-ups continue to pile up, some people bizarrely still seem to think it’s all part of an ingenious strategy, says Guardian columnist Marina Hyde
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

The Govt is simply making it up as they go along and Cummings has them all transfixed that he is genius somehow, with Rasputin-like cunning. It was obvious in Bozo’s press statement yesterday. At times, he would be talking normally and apparently rationally about the difficulties then he would pause, his eyes glaze over as the Cummings presence intruded into his mind, and then suddenly bark something about the “Rule of Six”.

Another meaningless three-word soundbite, conveying zero sound advice, given that pubs, cinemas, restaurants are all still open and anyone can easily get around the rules. And who are the Covid Commissars who are going to try and enforce it?
Click to expand...
im not usually a big fan opf the guardian but that is a very funny article, the thing is proper journalism just isnt useful anymore, you cannot be analytical when what you are reporting on is so f*****g ridiculous.
 
Archibald Knox said:
You really ought to read this article by Marina Hyde. It’s both perceptive and funny. The first picture sums it all up. The manic ** cannot even button his shirt up properly.
www.theguardian.com

The Tories' biggest trick? Convincing the world they have a cunning plan | Marina Hyde

As the cock-ups continue to pile up, some people bizarrely still seem to think it’s all part of an ingenious strategy, says Guardian columnist Marina Hyde
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

The Govt is simply making it up as they go along and Cummings has them all transfixed that he is genius somehow, with Rasputin-like cunning. It was obvious in Bozo’s press statement yesterday. At times, he would be talking normally and apparently rationally about the difficulties then he would pause, his eyes glaze over as the Cummings presence intruded into his mind, and then suddenly bark something about the “Rule of Six”.

Another meaningless three-word soundbite, conveying zero sound advice, given that pubs, cinemas, restaurants are all still open and anyone can easily get around the rules. And who are the Covid Commissars who are going to try and enforce it?
Click to expand...
I’m a big fan of Marina Hyde. She is always funny and always nails the point.

There is no cunning plan. They just don’t know what they’re doing.
 
Archibald Knox said:
You really ought to read this article by Marina Hyde. It’s both perceptive and funny. The first picture sums it all up. The manic ** cannot even button his shirt up properly.
www.theguardian.com

The Tories' biggest trick? Convincing the world they have a cunning plan | Marina Hyde

As the cock-ups continue to pile up, some people bizarrely still seem to think it’s all part of an ingenious strategy, says Guardian columnist Marina Hyde
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

The Govt is simply making it up as they go along and Cummings has them all transfixed that he is a genius somehow, with Rasputin-like cunning. It was obvious in Bozo’s press statement yesterday. At times, he would be talking normally and apparently rationally about the difficulties then he would pause, his eyes glaze over as the Cummings presence intruded into his mind, and then suddenly bark something about the “Rule of Six”.

Another meaningless three-word soundbite, conveying zero sound advice, given that pubs, cinemas, restaurants are all still open and anyone can easily get around the rules. And who are the Covid Commissars who are going to try and enforce it?
Click to expand...
Absolutely nails it. @Tangojoe this is exactly what I meant. The country is being ruined and I'm not happy about it.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Exactly.

It cracks me up how the ones responsible for ** up the country claim exclusive dibs on patriotism. And then demand the rest of us stay quiet about the havoc and damage they are wreaking.
Click to expand...

Post-truth politics, innit?

Everything is up for grabs if you are brazen enough - including patriotism.

Trump is the case in point. Wraps himself in the American flag as America`s greatest partriot, yet dodged the draft four times and demeans war heroes (McCain), 5 star generals (Kelly, Mattis) and the fallen soldiers (suckers). And boasts about not paying taxes.

Debate is largely defunct - why bother explaining - just dismiss accusations as fake and move on.

Scrutiny is so passe - as we are now finding in this country with Johnson and his merry band of Moonspaffers.

Great article by Marina Hyde, Wiz....
 
spudgun said:
Post-truth politics, innit?

Everything is up for grabs if you are brazen enough - including patriotism.

Trump is the case in point. Wraps himself in the American flag as America`s greatest partriot, yet dodged the draft four times and demeans war heroes (McCain), 5 star generals (Kelly, Mattis) and the fallen soldiers (suckers). And boasts about not paying taxes.

Debate is largely defunct - why bother explaining - just dismiss accusations as fake and move on.

Scrutiny is so passe - as we are now finding in this country with Johnson and his merry band of Moonspaffers.

Great article by Marina Hyde, Wiz....
Click to expand...
I have this theory now. Whatever Trump or Johnson say, on any topic, then the complete opposite is true.

I suppose there may be the rare occasion when they aren’t actually telling porkies, but as a rule of thumb this approach works and allows you to suss out exactly what is going on.

As an example:

Johnson - “We must breach the withdrawal agreement in order to preserve the union and ensure peace in NI.”
The Truth - “Breaching the Withdrawal Agreement will certainly stoke up the calls for independence in Scotland and Wales and is more likely to jeopardise the peace process in Ireland”.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I have this theory now. Whatever Trump or Johnson say, on any topic, then the complete opposite is true.

I suppose there may be the rare occasion when they aren’t actually telling porkies, but as a rule of thumb this approach works and allows you to suss out exactly what is going on.

As an example:

Johnson - “We must breach the withdrawal agreement in order to preserve the union and ensure peace in NI.”
The Truth - “Breaching the Withdrawal Agreement will certainly stoke up the calls for independence in Scotland and Wales and is more likely to jeopardise the peace process in Ireland”.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I think your theory holds water, and I think we can also extend it to most of this third rate cabinet.

For Johnson to be such a prolific liar he is dependant on an army of sophists and enablers, who quid pro quo, know that as long as they propagate his misinformation they are virtually unsackable. Hence people promoted to cabinet positions based on loyalty and moral flexibility, and not ability...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top