Will AZ just say fcuk it?

T

TSSeasider

Well-known member
Given the constantly negative rhetoric coming out of the EU and some member states, do you think they might just sack it off given their Covid vaccine is not for profit?
 
After today’s debacle of the Commission ‘suggesting’ to Italian special police they investigate a ‘stockpile’ of vaccine destined for export to dear old evil Britain, and the Italians duly complying with said ‘suggestion’ and finding the ‘stockpile’ and briefing media that it was proof of the AZ/UK stitch up only to find it to be fully produced vaccine awaiting distribution by AZ to the EU and poor countries ie) ready to go bar final quality checks in accordance with EU requirements, you’d like to think the almighty Commissioners might just wind their neck in a bit. The most embarrassing day in EU history was one quote from inside the Commission. AZ must be really keen on keeping their investments in the EU going after all this nonsensical witch huntery.
 
clappers said:
After today’s debacle of the Commission ‘suggesting’ to Italian special police they investigate a ‘stockpile’ of vaccine destined for export to dear old evil Britain, and the Italians duly complying with said ‘suggestion’ and finding the ‘stockpile’ and briefing media that it was proof of the AZ/UK stitch up only to find it to be fully produced vaccine awaiting distribution by AZ to the EU and poor countries ie) ready to go bar final quality checks in accordance with EU requirements, you’d like to think the almighty Commissioners might just wind their neck in a bit. The most embarrassing day in EU history was one quote from inside the Commission. AZ must be really keen on keeping their investments in the EU going after all this nonsensical witch huntery.
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The executives who run Astra Zeneca are infinitely cleverer than the knee-jerk apparatchiks of the EU Commission who are only interested in tomorrow’s news headlines about themselves.

AZ will play it coolly and for the long-term. And probably play the EU and the UK off against each other, for their own benefit.
 
Archibald Knox said:
Not in the UK though. We have fully indemnified AZ for any discrepancies in this regard. Which is why we have the vaccine and EU do not.
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I am starting to wonder whether or not there is a conspiracy against AZ because the decision to sell the vaccine at cost price is damaging a potential jackpot for other big Pharma.
Evidence as follows;
  • Clinical trial stopped in the US over safety concerns. Stopped for long enough so that the two US companies producing vaccines sold at a profit could get a head start and release their results early.
  • Unprecedented recent letter from US health officials casting doubt on AZ results (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ve-in-updated-u-s-trial-results-idUSKBN2BH03H). Discrepancy in the data was very small, the overriding message from the data is the same, that the vaccine is both effective and safe.
  • Various EU politicians undermining vaccine efficiency claims (Macron, German Health minister and others) which has affected confidence in the vaccine in the EU
  • Blood clot stoppage in EU and other countries without any real evidence. None of the other vaccines have been stopped or held to such a high level of scrutiny.
All of this undermines public confidence in the AZ vaccine and may help the sales of the other vaccine candidates. Maybe I am cynical but I am starting to wonder if there is an element of coordination about all of this negative messaging.
Personally I would be far more worried about the safety aspects of the RNA vaccines, a new untried technology, rather than AZ which is based on a well understood platform.
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
I am starting to wonder whether or not there is a conspiracy against AZ because the decision to sell the vaccine at cost price is damaging a potential jackpot for other big Pharma.
.............
All of this undermines public confidence in the AZ vaccine and may help the sales of the other vaccine candidates. Maybe I am cynical but I am starting to wonder if there is an element of coordination about all of this negative messaging.
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I've seem similar suggestions, particularly with regards to the EU, I doubt that there's any actual co-ordination and much of the noise is an attempt to deflect attention from the EC's failures over the vaccine programme, but it's not out of the question that behind the scenes some of AZ's rivals are giving the odd nudge here and there to try and undermine them.

The issue is perhaps less the decision to sell at cost, but more that the cost is much lower to start with (they could sell at 10x cost and still be one of the cheapest), and that fundamentally it seems to be a better practical vaccine than others, which is to say faster and easier to manufacture and easier to store and distribute.
 
TSSeasider said:
Given the constantly negative rhetoric coming out of the EU and some member states, do you think they might just sack it off given their Covid vaccine is not for profit?
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I suspect that they'll complete the current contract, but after that they'll be much more guarded about any future contracts AND manufacturing within the EU, something that may have significant consequences for vaccines against new variants and booster jabs for the autumn/winter.

Most likely manufacturing will be done outside of the EU, the companies may refuse to contract with the EU at all and negotiate with the individual member states, and the contracts will be written along the lines of ".........may supply, at a time of their choosing, at their discretion for massive profits and may cancel at any time of their choosing.......".

This isn't just going to affect AZ either, I suspect that all of the pharma companies are looking at the situation and asking themselves "do we really want to be involved with these clowns?" I suspect that post Covid the answer will be no and a lot of pharma and related industries will leave the EU, hopefully a large part of it ending up in the UK.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I am starting to wonder whether or not there is a conspiracy against AZ because the decision to sell the vaccine at cost price is damaging a potential jackpot for other big Pharma.
Evidence as follows;
  • Clinical trial stopped in the US over safety concerns. Stopped for long enough so that the two US companies producing vaccines sold at a profit could get a head start and release their results early.
  • Unprecedented recent letter from US health officials casting doubt on AZ results (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ve-in-updated-u-s-trial-results-idUSKBN2BH03H). Discrepancy in the data was very small, the overriding message from the data is the same, that the vaccine is both effective and safe.
  • Various EU politicians undermining vaccine efficiency claims (Macron, German Health minister and others) which has affected confidence in the vaccine in the EU
  • Blood clot stoppage in EU and other countries without any real evidence. None of the other vaccines have been stopped or held to such a high level of scrutiny.
All of this undermines public confidence in the AZ vaccine and may help the sales of the other vaccine candidates. Maybe I am cynical but I am starting to wonder if there is an element of coordination about all of this negative messaging.
Personally I would be far more worried about the safety aspects of the RNA vaccines, a new untried technology, rather than AZ which is based on a well understood platform.
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AZ do seem to have a record of poor trial data regarding this vaccine. The Americans have recently stated that the company has used out of date data in its latest efficacy trials. Could this be behind some of the issues they are experiencing and nothing to do with conspiracies.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I suspect that they'll complete the current contract, but after that they'll be much more guarded about any future contracts AND manufacturing within the EU, something that may have significant consequences for vaccines against new variants and booster jabs for the autumn/winter.

Most likely manufacturing will be done outside of the EU, the companies may refuse to contract with the EU at all and negotiate with the individual member states, and the contracts will be written along the lines of ".........may supply, at a time of their choosing, at their discretion for massive profits and may cancel at any time of their choosing.......".

This isn't just going to affect AZ either, I suspect that all of the pharma companies are looking at the situation and asking themselves "do we really want to be involved with these clowns?" I suspect that post Covid the answer will be no and a lot of pharma and related industries will leave the EU, hopefully a large part of it ending up in the UK.
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Just to add that after the latest actions by the EU an unnamed AZ executive has said that they would not do this again if the situation ever arose - I think that they are referring to manufacture at sell at cost not dealing with the EU.
SomersetSeasider said:
AZ do seem to have a record of poor trial data regarding this vaccine. The Americans have recently stated that the company has used out of date data in its latest efficacy trials. Could this be behind some of the issues they are experiencing and nothing to do with conspiracies.
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The US plc has a vested interest in AZ not being trusted / licensed. Pfizer are charging $35 a course for their treatment compared with $5 or so for AZ. The longer AZ can be delayed the more profit for the likes of Pfizer as any country would probably choose AZ if they had a choice and not just on price but because of ease of transportation and storage, tried and tested tech etc.
No doubt that AZ / OU have not covered themselves in glory with the way that they have released data, with the US results being the latest botch. However the difference between 76% and 79% efficacy is sort of small potatoes in the scheme of things as we are facing a world wide epidemic. The figures have now been adjusted based on up to date data that actually increased efficacy in the over 65 age group for the vaccine. But in a way the clinical trial data is now a little bit irrelevant because the results of mass vaccination with AZ can be seen very clearly in the daily UK hospitalisation and death figures. You have to ask yourself why there is the drip feed of negative information against one thing that could really be a game changer in the worldwide fight against covid.
 
SomersetSeasider said:
AZ do seem to have a record of poor trial data regarding this vaccine. The Americans have recently stated that the company has used out of date data in its latest efficacy trials. Could this be behind some of the issues they are experiencing and nothing to do with conspiracies.
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Doubt it, the issues are the sort of thing you would expect given the speed at which things are being deployed, I suspect you will find the exact same issues in all of the other vaccines' trial data, just people aren't looking for them or at least "bigging them up".

AZ are undoubtedly getting extra scrutiny that is not being applied to Pfizer and others, largely because of the EU's attempts to shift their own failures onto them, but also I suspect there's an element of disbelief, how is a supposed basket case that's botched the pandemic response (both claims false but possibly a mindset some will hold) able to develop and deploy a vaccine at 1/10th the cost of others that is also the easiest to store and distribute?

If AZ have made a mistake it's that they didn't anticipate the politics, the contract is I'm sure legally sound and I'm confident that AZ are complying with it, but there's just enough ambiguity in it that they can be spun differently provided that no-one checks too carefully and they were perhaps naive to think this wouldn't happen.

Perhaps if someone at the top of AZ had taken a step back and considered the wider picture, that the EU were way behind where they needed to be in the vaccine race and that they didn't want to end up being the scapegoat for those failures, then the contract would've been much more explicit, "AZ will supply what it wants, when it likes and no the UK is not in the EU" but this really is being hypercritical.
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
Just to add that after the latest actions by the EU an unnamed AZ executive has said that they would not do this again if the situation ever arose - I think that they are referring to manufacture at sell at cost not dealing with the EU.
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I suspect what they're saying is "not get involved with vaccines at all", AFAIK it's not an area they've previously worked in, I think they've done a fantastic job but one can understand how they might feel quite bruised by the experience thanks entirely to the EU.
 
AZ have now released the 'latest' trials figures. They explained that the previous results were issued early at the specific request of the EU and were provisional. So once again, provocation and propaganda follows the AstraZenica drug, the most tested and proven of all the vaccines.

In case anyone is interested, the latest figures show a drop of 2% in efficacy for under 65s and an increase of 5% for over 65s. Who's turn is it next to undermine the drug?
 
I know what's coming next. EU and America will refuse traveller's from the UK who have been vaccinated with AZ.
They really are peeved how many in the uk have been vaccinated lol
 
I think we all know what this is about. Firstly, to look for a 'patsy' to unjustifiably take the blame for the EU's incompetent vaccine procurement, delayed clearance and roll out. Even moreso when France and Germany both have elections. Unfortunately for Macron and Merkel their media and populations know the truth. Secondly, to favour a German manufacturer that is making a huge profit over one that is favoured by the WHO because it is easier to store and much cheaper.
Because they cocked up the procurement they have rubbished the testing, rubbished the efficacy, created scare stories about clotting, all of which have been shown to be groundless. They have also created the ridiculous situation were they said it wasn't safe for anyone, then it wasn't safe for their over 65s, then it was safe for everyone and now it is ok for just the over 60s! Utterly irresponsible narrative from the politicians who have undermined confidence in the vaccine so much that millions of doses are unused and millions of their populations remain unprotected when they have a third wave. At the end of the day it is the European people who will suffer.
 
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