Starmer - idiot or just thick?

Bend it like Suddick said:
1966. I was making a reply to your point about Starmer can't be thick or stupid as he was head of the DPP. My response was basically yes he could when he was actually in charge when Saville allegations started to be in the public domain. I also thought he was at the DPP when the Brazilian got shot on the tube, but I stand to be corrected on that one.

I concede he must have a modicum of intelligence to achieve being the head of the DPP, but as in his Political career he seems to have dodged active involvement by staying in the Shadows.

Perhaps my title should have been...Thick, stupid or incompetent which would have probably been more accurate.
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Apparently he had nothing to do with the Savile case. Why not just give Labour a chance? It's not illegal. The Party is more than its leader and they have some good ideas. It feels to me as if you are determined for Starmer to fail. Loyalty to parties or political wings is not the be all and end all. Try Labour for a change. I promise they won't put you in jail.
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
Seriously Mac....more migrants and a return to Europe?
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Dear God, not this again.

Our public services - especially the NHS - would collapse without all the talented and dedicated people who came here to study and then have a career. As for Europe, we fought it worth fighting for twice in the last century. A more pertinent question might be, why on earth would they want a corrupt, under-performing and disturbingly xenophobic country back in their midst?

The real issue that we need to address is that of the kind of opportunities we are going to bequeath the young people of our nation. They deserve better than the mindless insularity and ignorance shown by my generation.
 
Flip the question.

Why would Rishi make a better PM after the next election?

In which areas will the Conservative government excel at now and after the next election?
 
basilrobbie3 said:
Dear God, not this again.

Our public services - especially the NHS - would collapse without all the talented and dedicated people who came here to study and then have a career. As for Europe, we fought it worth fighting for twice in the last century. A more pertinent question might be, why on earth would they want a corrupt, under-performing and disturbingly xenophobic country back in their midst?

The real issue that we need to address is that of the kind of opportunities we are going to bequeath the young people of our nation. They deserve better than the mindless insularity and ignorance shown by my generation.
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You've raised the discussion to too high a level. My approach is to hit 'em where they live.
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
I don't often stick up for Tory Migrant Policy, but they have repeatedly negotiated with France with at the time responsible agreements, so to say Labour would negotiate like grown-ups is somewhat churlish.
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But that is just not true. They have given France money for wishy washy objectives, but failed to staff a centre to process refugees in Northern France, that is the real and only viable solution.
 
Macseasider said:
Cannot wait till he gets started and get us back in. Far from stupid. It's what the people want.

Oh and he could do a new referendum. It's probably about time for another. I think the vote would go massively in favour of a return other than for a few RWNJ's and Boomers.
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I wouldn’t be so sure about the result of a referendum when people hear the terms of re- joining.
 
foggy said:
They will be more competent than the Tories who couldn't run a bath but they still choose to play by the same arbritrary fiscal rules Cameron and Osborne set out years ago so the country will largely continue to limp on in a zombie state handcuffed by not investing and cowering to NIMBYism. Debt has grown massively under the Conservatives and we have the highest tax burden in generations and yet you still get people who blame Labour for this. The lesson Starmer should have learnt is you will never win over these people so don't even bother, instead he continues pandering and playing nervous scared politics despite having a commanding lead and going up against a terrible opponent in Sunak who is losing credibility by the day. The only faint hope is he becomes a bit bolder if he gets a 200+ seat majority which he is on course to do, but it means breaking the hegemony of conservative fiscal rule.
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Labour have been out of office for 13 years and Corbyn achieved the worst result for Labour since 1935. I don't blame Starmer one bit for his caution. If he's singing the same song when Labour are in office with a marginal majority then so be it. If he gets a large majority then I want and expect the gloves to come off.
 
foggy said:
They will be more competent than the Tories who couldn't run a bath but they still choose to play by the same arbritrary fiscal rules Cameron and Osborne set out years ago so the country will largely continue to limp on in a zombie state handcuffed by not investing and cowering to NIMBYism. Debt has grown massively under the Conservatives and we have the highest tax burden in generations and yet you still get people who blame Labour for this. The lesson Starmer should have learnt is you will never win over these people so don't even bother, instead he continues pandering and playing nervous scared politics despite having a commanding lead and going up against a terrible opponent in Sunak who is losing credibility by the day. The only faint hope is he becomes a bit bolder if he gets a 200+ seat majority which he is on course to do, but it means breaking the hegemony of conservative fiscal rule.
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The difference is rates are much higher than they were in the Cameron and Osborne era and I don't think it is right to say that doesn't impose at least some constraints on borrowing [it does need to be said it takes some very special idiots [word of the day it seems!] to not borrow when it's free and then to announce expansionary tax cuts at a time of a tight labour market].

Taxes will have to go up. In any case the tax burden [that whole phrase is very loaded anyway] will rise due to other factors eg due to ageing Boomers. It's not like it is particularly high anyway which is where international comparisons might be revealing for some.

I am not really disagreeing much though.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
The same place as the £20 billion for the failed track and trace, £100 billion for HS2 or the £15 billion in contracts given to individuals connected to the Tory party?
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In Corbyn’s draft manifesto, which Starmer supported, he pledged to finish HS2 from London to Manchester and Leeds then continue it into Scotland. So not just the Tories.
 
Chunkylad said:
Flip the question.

Why would Rishi make a better PM after the next election?

In which areas will the Conservative government excel at now and after the next election?
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I’ll help you out with a starter for ten:

Rishi will increase inheritance tax levels to £1m I think. I suspect that that’ll help most of the posters on here and across the Gold Coast?

You wouldn’t want your estate hit with damaging taxes would you Albert?
 
Negotiations involve at least 2 parties. The EU have already stated they have no intention of negotiating with the UK over migration.
 
tommytwojags said:
I agree that Starmer is not the person to lead this country. He lacks authority or charisma and I would choose Sunak over him any day of the week. But this brings us back to the government v opposition nonsense we see every day. Yesterday it was about doctors. Starmer criticised the govt for not giving in and awarding them a huge pay rise. Last week it was about immigration. Next week it will be another topic. The BBC and other media stir the pot by asking Shadow ministers to comment on governmental policies. They seem reluctant to ask the govt, which always seems like an odd modus operandi. Surely if a minister makes a statement on policy, it's the minister who should be questioned about it.

Anyway, the opposition, whichever party that is, will always make promises to resolve all issues, without ever having the wherewithal to pay for it. Being in opposition is simple and being leader of the opposition is simpler still. No doubt Labour will win the next election and will find itself having to answer the serious questions in real life. It can't resolve the country's problems in government any better than it can now or than the Tories can now. Is there anyone on the other side of the Chamber in a better position than Keir to run the country? I'm struggling to see any suitable candidates. So maybe we are doomed.
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I have said for donkeys years the best job in the Country is leader of the opposition. All you have to do is promise the Earth, tell the Government what they’re doing wrong and say what you would do, knowing you don’t have to do it.
 
foggy said:
They will be more competent than the Tories who couldn't run a bath but they still choose to play by the same arbritrary fiscal rules Cameron and Osborne set out years ago so the country will largely continue to limp on in a zombie state handcuffed by not investing and cowering to NIMBYism. Debt has grown massively under the Conservatives and we have the highest tax burden in generations and yet you still get people who blame Labour for this. The lesson Starmer should have learnt is you will never win over these people so don't even bother, instead he continues pandering and playing nervous scared politics despite having a commanding lead and going up against a terrible opponent in Sunak who is losing credibility by the day. The only faint hope is he becomes a bit bolder if he gets a 200+ seat majority which he is on course to do, but it means breaking the hegemony of conservative fiscal rule.
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200+,dream on.
 
Chunkylad said:
I’ll help you out with a starter for ten:

Rishi will increase inheritance tax levels to £1m I think. I suspect that that’ll help most of the posters on here and across the Gold Coast?

You wouldn’t want your estate hit with damaging taxes would you Albert?
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Where have I mentioned inheritance, or any other tax? Neither have I said this Government is doing well, nor that I’m a Tory supporter. I just happen not to think that Labour or Starmer is the answer to a maiden’s prayer.
 
Albert Ross said:
In Corbyn’s draft manifesto, which Starmer supported, he pledged to finish HS2 from London to Manchester and Leeds then continue it into Scotland. So not just the Tories.
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What's your point? HS2 might (I said might), be good. But even if not, Starmer and Labour might want to rethink what Corbyn was saying. I'd rather they be held to account on their manifesto this time around.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
What's your point? HS2 might (I said might), be good. But even if not, Starmer and Labour might want to rethink what Corbyn was saying. I'd rather they be held to account on their manifesto this time around.
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Lytham Fy8 was listing waste of money by tories. I was pointing out one thing he listed was also supported by Corbyn, Labour and by association Starmer.
 
Another Brexit referendum probably would go in favour of a return to the EU, mainly because Boris and his cronies have done the square root of fcuk all with it since we left. All of the legislation still copied and pasted. Nothing useful done. All of the hassle and no benefits to show. And people will argue they were right all along. Well if no political party has the drive and desire to do anything positive with it, we might as well be back in, imo.

As for Starmer, he will get in with a landslide. That’s not a glowing endorsement of him or the best party and leader, rather a reaction / protest vote against the Tories. No doubt he will promise giveaways they can’t afford, and use make-believe costings that will be left for the Tories to sort down the line.
Also, he doesn’t have what I would consider strong leadership qualities and doesn’t appear capable of having an original thought or idea.
There’s not a lot in the way of competition. I’m just a bit annoyed someone like Andy Burnam didn’t get the top job.
 
Chunkylad said:
I’ll help you out with a starter for ten:

Rishi will increase inheritance tax levels to £1m I think. I suspect that that’ll help most of the posters on here and across the Gold Coast?

You wouldn’t want your estate hit with damaging taxes would you Albert?
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You can already leave £1m tax free if your partner has pre-deceased and not used any of their allowance. And the Tories want it raising.

I had a guy I know moaning to me last year as he had to pay £120k on his parents estate - as an only child he was only left with £1.18m. I was really sympathetic.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Yes I can see that. The bit I'm interested in is your statement about Labour not being the answer to a maiden's prayer. I'm interested.
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Some of the avid Labourites on here appear to think that a Labour Government will provide all the answers and everything in the garden will be rosie. My point is the Tories have made a horlicks of their term however if Labour wins the national debt will still be heading towards £2 billion, migration will still be a Europe wide problem etc, etc. Things may, or may not improve but any changes for good or bad will take time. We aren’t going to wake up to a Labour administration and suddenly everything will be hunky dory.
 
Don’t vote for either party, both are a disgrace. Neither party are particularly pro British or appear to be proud of our history and heritage so fuck em.
 
tangerine_neil said:
Another Brexit referendum probably would go in favour of a return to the EU, mainly because Boris and his cronies have done the square root of fcuk all with it since we left. All of the legislation still copied and pasted. Nothing useful done. All of the hassle and no benefits to show. And people will argue they were right all along. Well if no political party has the drive and desire to do anything positive with it, we might as well be back in, imo.

As for Starmer, he will get in with a landslide. That’s not a glowing endorsement of him or the best party and leader, rather a reaction / protest vote against the Tories. No doubt he will promise giveaways they can’t afford, and use make-believe costings that will be left for the Tories to sort down the line.
Also, he doesn’t have what I would consider strong leadership qualities and doesn’t appear capable of having an original thought or idea.
There’s not a lot in the way of competition. I’m just a bit annoyed someone like Andy Burnam didn’t get the top job.
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What EU legislation would you want scrapping ?
 
Albert Ross said:
Lytham Fy8 was listing waste of money by tories. I was pointing out one thing he listed was also supported by Corbyn, Labour and by association Starmer.
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OK. That I understand. However, using Harold Wilson's maxim, 'a week is a long time in politics', things change. I don't see HS2 as a Labour (or Tory) principal - ie. Handed down from the Mount - but, how does it fit in with the manifesto? Are major infrastructure projects good? Generally, I'd say yes. Do they fit in with the green agenda? That has to be tested.
 
no9 said:
Don’t vote for either party, both are a disgrace. Neither party are particularly pro British or appear to be proud of our history and heritage so fuck em.
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You will have to live in the country they shape. Better to have a voice in the ballot than simply crowing 'I hate them' from the sidelines. The polling station will be closer to you than the supermarket, probably. Turn out and have your say.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
OK. That I understand. However, using Harold Wilson's maxim, 'a week is a long time in politics', things change. I don't see HS2 as a Labour (or Tory) principal - ie. Handed down from the Mount - but, how does it fit in with the manifesto? Are major infrastructure projects good? Generally, I'd say yes. Do they fit in with the green agenda? That has to be tested.
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It depends what the major projects are whether they are good or not. Some are some aren’t, I personally think HS2 is a complete waste of money, but that’s my opinion.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
You will have to live in the country they shape. Better to have a voice in the ballot than simply crowing 'I hate them' from the sidelines. The polling station will be closer to you than the supermarket, probably. Turn out and have your say.
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That we can agree on. Ihave voted in every election since I was old enough. As I have said to many people over the years, our ancestors fought, and some died to win us the right to vote and I think its an insult to them not to use that right.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
Dear God, not this again.

Our public services - especially the NHS - would collapse without all the talented and dedicated people who came here to study and then have a career. As for Europe, we fought it worth fighting for twice in the last century. A more pertinent question might be, why on earth would they want a corrupt, under-performing and disturbingly xenophobic country back in their midst?

The real issue that we need to address is that of the kind of opportunities we are going to bequeath the young people of our nation. They deserve better than the mindless insularity and ignorance shown by my generation.
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Which is all well and good, but what is your argument to the swathes of migrants only here for economic or criminal purposes. Just wait until the next terrorist attack, and there will be one, and it identifies a perpetrator as being a 'boat person', watch the balloon go up then.
 
Albert Ross said:
Some of the avid Labourites on here appear to think that a Labour Government will provide all the answers and everything in the garden will be rosie. My point is the Tories have made a horlicks of their term however if Labour wins the national debt will still be heading towards £2 billion, migration will still be a Europe wide problem etc, etc. Things may, or may not improve but any changes for good or bad will take time. We aren’t going to wake up to a Labour administration and suddenly everything will be hunky dory.
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Absolutely not. And you are right to say so. But, the country has to be set on a better course. It may well take two, three Governments and that could take 15 years. But look at what we've had. 13 years, 5 Prime Ministers in 4 elections and- as you say - a Horlicks of a situation. Give Labour an opportunity. I do it because I'm philosophically wedded to the Labour Party. You don't need to be. Just make it a common sense choice.
 
Albert Ross said:
200+,dream on.
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The current polling average is Lab 44%/Cons 26%. Using the website Electoral Calculus to convert this into estimated seats using their models this translates to a 214 seat majority. Now polls have a margin of error and on average you can expect them to be a few points out. So maybe the Tories are lucky and that 18 point lead actually is a 14 point lead. Of course since there is no pattern to which way the average error goes, it is also possible that instead of tighten the lead it actually widens. A poll today from YouGov has the Tories at 24% which produces a 300 seat majority. FPTP produces some very odd results once a main party gets into the mid to low 20s and if you think a 200 seat majority is the stuff of dreams I would recommend familiarising yourself with the polls and Sunak's approval rating. The model doesn't even take into account tactical voting which we know voters are doing more and more of to vote against the Tories.
 
Albert. Please tell me then what Rishi will do better now than Labour and again after the election.

I’m genuinely interested and you’ll see from my last postings that I’m not a great fan of either party.
 
cside said:
You sailed right past the point there chief.

I’m pointing out that as a commentator on an internet forum, it’s unlikely you have been either the leader of the opposition, or the director of public prosecutions (though do tell me if I’m in the wrong there). You are calling someone who has achieved those things an idiot, or calling him thick, when it’s clear that he isn’t.

Makes sense now?
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The terms “thick” and “idiot” have been used by posters on here to describe people who have actually achieved the position of PM and indeed President of the USA , so I think it is possible for Sir KS to achieve PM...😳
 
foggy said:
The current polling average is Lab 44%/Cons 26%. Using the website Electoral Calculus to convert this into estimated seats using their models this translates to a 214 seat majority. Now polls have a margin of error and on average you can expect them to be a few points out. So maybe the Tories are lucky and that 18 point lead actually is a 14 point lead. Of course since there is no pattern to which way the average error goes, it is also possible that instead of tighten the lead it actually widens. A poll today from YouGov has the Tories at 24% which produces a 300 seat majority. FPTP produces some very odd results once a main party gets into the mid to low 20s and if you think a 200 seat majority is the stuff of dreams I would recommend familiarising yourself with the polls and Sunak's approval rating. The model doesn't even take into account tactical voting which we know voters are doing more and more of to vote against the Tories.
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There's time for Starmer to drop one almighty b*****k. His advisors must have extremely sore sphincters looking after him.
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
There's time for Starmer to drop one almighty b*****k. His advisors must have extremely sore sphincters looking after him.
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He's a fundamentally pretty normal and a bit boring man who is playing a very conservative game of not making any major slipups. The Tories have been hoping he does for two years now and he's barely given them a hint this will happen. You seem to think he is some Boris type who is prone to making a calamity at any moment which is the exact opposite of how he is going about his business. Trust me as someone who wants him to be more bold he isn't going to give you an inch. He will continue to be uninspiring and maybe that puts a roof on his support but it will still lead to a +10 percentage point victory. The Tories are falling as low in the polls as they were when Truss left.
 
bollieboy said:
What EU legislation would you want scrapping ?
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It would need prioritising, as you’d expect with 20,000 individual pieces of legislation.
We don’t have enough Gov legal people to wade through that lot. It would take years. Maybe some could be combined / grouped?
Might even involve an update rather than a complete scrapping, eg Human Rights Act, to close the loopholes currently exploited. Although I’d be more than happy to simply scrap some of the more bonkers ones, eg width of doorways, light bulbs, power limits on vacuum cleaners and traffic light signal specifics.
So a keep / scrap / update list, or similar 🤔
 
foggy said:
He's a fundamentally pretty normal and a bit boring man who is playing a very conservative game of not making any major slipups. The Tories have been hoping he does for two years now and he's barely given them a hint this will happen. You seem to think he is some Boris type who is prone to making a calamity at any moment which is the exact opposite of how he is going about his business. Trust me as someone who wants him to be more bold he isn't going to give you an inch. He will continue to be uninspiring and maybe that puts a roof on his support but it will still lead to a +10 percentage point victory. The Tories are falling as low in the polls as they were when Truss left.
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As I alluded to before, he's made a misguided effort about the migrant crisis which has been criticised universally, and this will be just the start with him. I accept your statistical evaluation however.
 
tangerine_neil said:
It would need prioritising, as you’d expect with 20,000 individual pieces of legislation.
We don’t have enough Gov legal people to wade through that lot. It would take years. Maybe some could be combined / grouped?
Might even involve an update rather than a complete scrapping, eg Human Rights Act, to close the loopholes currently exploited. Although I’d be more than happy to simply scrap some of the more bonkers ones, eg width of doorways, light bulbs, power limits on vacuum cleaners and traffic light signal specifics.
So a keep / scrap / update list, or similar 🤔
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Scrapping the Human Rights Act ? So you don't want the right to education, the right to participate in free elections, right to a fair trial, etc, etc.

Alright I get it.

I am not aware of EU rules on width of doorways and why it is bonkers. Can you enlighten me ?
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
As I alluded to before, he's made a misguided effort about the migrant crisis which has been criticised universally, and this will be just the start with him. I accept your statistical evaluation however.
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The problem with hoping that immigration policies/views will help the Tories is that the Conservatives are massively underwater on the issue themselves. Only 10% of 2019 Tory voters think they are handling immigration well. That is impressively bad numbers, that's their own voters saying this! Immigration was always going to come back into the headlines after a few years of the public caring less about it but I think it was a bizarre decision from the Tories to really push it as one of their 'pledges' and even hold a 'small boats week'. They've helped push an issue everyone thinks they are terrible at right into the forefront of public discussion. They've only nosedived in the polls since doing so.
 
foggy said:
The problem with hoping that immigration policies/views will help the Tories is that the Conservatives are massively underwater on the issue themselves. Only 10% of 2019 Tory voters think they are handling immigration well. That is impressively bad numbers, that's their own voters saying this! Immigration was always going to come back into the headlines after a few years of the public caring less about it but I think it was a bizarre decision from the Tories to really push it as one of their 'pledges' and even hold a 'small boats week'. They've helped push an issue everyone thinks they are terrible at right into the forefront of public discussion. They've only nosedived in the polls since doing so.
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Agreed
 
Reason said:
The difference is rates are much higher than they were in the Cameron and Osborne era and I don't think it is right to say that doesn't impose at least some constraints on borrowing [it does need to be said it takes some very special idiots [word of the day it seems!] to not borrow when it's free and then to announce expansionary tax cuts at a time of a tight labour market].

Taxes will have to go up. In any case the tax burden [that whole phrase is very loaded anyway] will rise due to other factors eg due to ageing Boomers. It's not like it is particularly high anyway which is where international comparisons might be revealing for some.

I am not really disagreeing much though.
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I do appreciate that it is a much tougher time to borrow than it was a few years ago, which makes it all the more frustrating that Cameron and Osborne implemented austerity in a time of tiny interest rates. It can never be understated how disastrous the pair was. So I agree now is a time when tightening of belts makes sense. However I don't think Starmer and Reeves would have done much different if they were running the election in 2015, for example. Reeves often talks about how they can't be 'seen' to be spending money, or how voters dont 'trust' them. They care about the perception of the sort of people who will never ever change their mind on them, and this is having an effect on their policy making as much as interest rates does, in my opinion.

Now is the time to point out how ludicrous it was for the Conservatives to spend the last 13 years telling us austerity would all be worth it and how we need to play by fiscal rules they made up to make themselves look better. How stupid it is to spend hundreds of millions of pounds delaying HS2 just so you can say you didnt add any debt this year, even if it costs you more next year. Instead they are still playing by that rule set. They need to change the narrative. Unburden us from the handcuffs of the type of thinking that conservatives around the world sold people post 2010. That the government needs to balance its budget like a household does (even though most households dont). Unless they do that they haven't defeated the real monster, the economic orthodoxy of conservatism.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Labour have been out of office for 13 years and Corbyn achieved the worst result for Labour since 1935. I don't blame Starmer one bit for his caution. If he's singing the same song when Labour are in office with a marginal majority then so be it. If he gets a large majority then I want and expect the gloves to come off.
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This was my view for a long time, and still is, but I have to admit to myself it's becoming more and more hopeful and less and less realistic, and it's not fun to be in a position voting for a party where you think hopefully by their second term they will do things they should stand for. Not supporting the reversal of the 2 child cap which pushes so many children into poverty is unacceptable to me, and I dont think their 18 point lead in the polls will be wiped out by reversing a very unpopular policy, and yet they have refused to. Stuff like that makes it very hard to just pass it off as understandable caution, even though I also know that when Starmer took over they were 20 points behind and now they are 20 points ahead, I'm not discounting that at all.
 
foggy said:
I also know that when Starmer took over they were 20 points behind and now they are 20 points ahead, I'm not discounting that at all.
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Realistically foggy, that cannot be construed as the 'Starmer Effect', the general census with people I talk to is they cannot stand him, but they hate the alternative even more.
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
Realistically foggy, that cannot be construed as the 'Starmer Effect', the general census with people I talk to is they cannot stand him, but they hate the alternative even more.
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I'm not saying it's down to him I'm just saying that in my criticisms of him I have to acknowledge the circumstances of where Labour was two years ago when we had a thread on this forum titled 'Labour is as dead as disco' to where we are now, where Labour getting 500 seats, while not likely and not something I would predict, is a real possibility. Like, well within the range of realistic outcomes. I also have to accept that another five years of the Tories is a future so bleak and so horrible to imagine that it is understandable to some degree to just want to not rock the boat and do anything wrong until we know Labour has finally won.
 
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