Shamima Begum

basilrobbie said:
I hold no brief for this wretched woman. But when she eventually gets the justice she deserves, I don't want there to be any scope for complaint that due process wasn't scrupulously followed, and the rule of law upheld. We are not only better than that, we should be seen to be.
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No argument with that but if she comes back she has to be punished, groomed or not. And there is the problem, how do we prevent her getting radicalised further if she is imprisoned?
 
The number of children admitted to hospital with malnutrition has doubled this year. What is concerning is the claims that thinking that one of the richest countries on the planet should do more to help its weakest and most vulnerable is the act of an extremist. Again it says a lot about a person's moral values.
 
catinstalbans said:
The number of children admitted to hospital with malnutrition has doubled this year. What is concerning is the claims that thinking that one of the richest countries on the planet should do more to help its weakest and most vulnerable is the act of an extremist. Again it says a lot about a person's moral values.
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The debate is about a young 15 year old girl who five years ago went to join ISIS. YOU deliberately switch the debate to a totally unrelated topic for what purpose? To politically point score. Again it says a lot about your aims and purposes for posting on here.
 
You are the one that made your tedious and oft repeated claims about my extremism on a thread where I have done nothing more than state that she was a minor when she left the UK and we should follow the law. You then cry foul because I give reasons why my viewpoints should not be regarded as extreme.
 
catinstalbans said:
You are the one that made your tedious and oft repeated claims about my extremism on a thread where I have done nothing more than state that she was a minor when she left the UK and we should follow the law. You then cry foul because I give reasons why my viewpoints should not be regarded as extreme.
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There's a quote from you about poverty.
 
Scaramanga said:
By definition of some on here she was too young and was vulnerable. Are We to assume then that young Greta Thunberg is just a silly little girl ? If so why is she telling the world what to do including politicians and there listening. So what is it ?
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But by the same logic we can also assume that 14/15 year old girls who are groomed for sex knew exactly what the deal was. Which is clearly totally untrue. A 15 year old of either sex is probably the most easily manipulated mind in society. A dangerous mix of no longer listening to anything a parent tells them and a desperate need to appeal or belong to something/someone, irrespective of how absurd or abhorrent that may be.

Don’t assume that just because your kids resisted those who want to corrupt or are wronguns that all kids can do that.

And to be clear, I’m not saying this is the case with beggum, but this is why these laws apply to kids.
 
Suppose she could apply for citizenship for Bangladesh as that is where her father is from.
Although they have already said if she does she will probably be executed.
Apparently there could be hundreds coming back from Syria after this.
 
How many of the international brigade who fought in the Spanish Civil War were banished and had their citizenship revoked when they came back to the UK? I personally can't see the difference.
 
Curryman said:
How many of the international brigade who fought in the Spanish Civil War were banished and had their citizenship revoked when they came back to the UK? I personally can't see the difference.
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Just to play devil’s advocate, the men and women of the International Brigades weren’t hell bent on destroying their own homelands.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Actually a good number of the International Brigade were communists so arguably they were.
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There were also anarchists who you could argue the same, but was their intention to go back to their home countries and carry on a military campaign? There were also many who joined up just to oppose Fascism. To compare the International Brigades to Islamic State is a bit disrespectful to say the least IMO.

Edit to add : being an anarchist or communist doesn’t mean you’re willing to kill anyone who disagrees with you.
 
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Johnno said:
There were also anarchists who you could argue the same, but was their intention to go back to their home countries and carry on a military campaign? There were also many who joined up just to oppose Fascism. To compare the International Brigades to Islamic State is a bit disrespectful to say the least IMO.
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Well I tend to agree with you that the ISIS/ International Brigade comparison is a poor one in terms of how they conducted themselves (although there were atrocities on both sides in the Spanish Civil War as in Syria), but it wasn’t me who made that comparison. Just pointing out that some members of the International Brigade (communists and anarchists as you say) were actually also committed to revolution in their own countries.
 
I was not intending to compare the IS to the IB, I was simply pointing out that both, so called fighters, had gone abroad to interfere in other country's disputes and then wanted to come home after it all went wrong.

I don't for one moment condone or agree with what she has done, but if she has broken the law, she should be dealt with in the time-honoured way, like any British Citizen who has fallen foul of the law.
 
Curryman said:
How many of the international brigade who fought in the Spanish Civil War were banished and had their citizenship revoked when they came back to the UK? I personally can't see the difference.
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This is probably the stupidest post I’ve ever read on either AVFTT, and that’s saying something.
 
Your opinion rekt. But if you don't think about what I said in my two posts then I'm sorry to say it is you that cannot see a perfectly good argument and therefore must be the stupid one.
 
Curryman said:
Your opinion rekt. But if you don't think about what I said in my two posts then I'm sorry to say it is you that cannot see a perfectly good argument and therefore must be the stupid one.
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“A perfectly good argument” what are you rambling on about.

it comes across as an apologist for British ISIS fighters. You may as well have titled it
Curryman: In defence of ISIS fighters.

there are no similarities and yes I have read your posts. Still not seeing it.
 
Rektseasider said:
“A perfectly good argument” what are you rambling on about.

it comes across as an apologist for British ISIS fighters. You may as well have titled it
Curryman: In defence of ISIS fighters.

there are no similarities and yes I have read your posts. Still not seeing it.
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Ok then let's try another scenario. William Joyce, after being captured was returned to the UK after WW2 and was given a trial under English law, was found guilty of treason and sentenced to be hanged. He appealed, which was his right, and the Appeal upheld the sentence which was duly carried out. At least he had been tried.

This girl has not been tried, just summarily stripped of her citizenship, but should be given the opportunity, as Joyce was, of stating her case under English Law, which I'm sure you would expect if you were in her position.
 
Curryman said:
Ok then let's try another scenario. William Joyce, after being captured was returned to the UK after WW2 and was given a trial under English law, was found guilty of treason and sentenced to be hanged. He appealed, which was his right, and the Appeal upheld the sentence which was duly carried out. At least he had been tried.

This girl has not been tried, just summarily stripped of her citizenship, but should be given the opportunity, as Joyce was, of stating her case under English Law, which I'm sure you would expect if you were in her position.
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Curryman said:
Ok then let's try another scenario. William Joyce, after being captured was returned to the UK after WW2 and was given a trial under English law, was found guilty of treason and sentenced to be hanged. He appealed, which was his right, and the Appeal upheld the sentence which was duly carried out. At least he had been tried.

This girl has not been tried, just summarily stripped of her citizenship, but should be given the opportunity, as Joyce was, of stating her case under English Law, which I'm sure you would expect if you were in her position.
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Ah the old switcharoo,

your original point before you switched it to the Nazis, if you can remember was that there was no difference with the Brits who volunteered for the International Brigade during the Spanish Civil war. Now were any of those prosecuted when they returned?

They did however receive farewell parades in Spain, Republican honours and a jubilant crowd welcoming their return. There’s now memorials to them in London.

but apparently you can see no difference with them and her? I can however, therefore according to you I am stupid.



I believe she should face a hearing over her right to citizenship as it’s a very slippery slope when the government are enabled to remove rights that easily, even if I believe she should probably loose it because of her actions. I do believe that there’s a way if this ever does happen for it to be heard from a consulate or embassy overseas. As the ruling did not rule this out.
 
Perhaps we are singing from the same hymn sheet after all. I find no problem in her being heard from abroad in one of our consulates or an Embassy so long as she is given a fair hearing.
 
Even her own lawyer isn’t convinced she won’t slip back into isis mode. Does nobody else find this a bit disconcerting
 
basilrobbie said:
I'm struggling to see how this equates to being an apologist for British ISIS fighters.
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“How many of the international brigade who fought in the Spanish Civil War were banished and had their citizenship revoked when they came back to the UK? I personally can't see the difference.”

if you read the thread you’d understand the point I was making.

The basic point in the above statement, unintentionally or not was one of an apologist.

you of all people should know how apologist statements are formed, you were writing them for years on the old site.
 
Rektseasider said:
“How many of the international brigade who fought in the Spanish Civil War were banished and had their citizenship revoked when they came back to the UK? I personally can't see the difference.”

if you read the thread you’d understand the point I was making.

The basic point in the above statement, unintentionally or not was one of an apologist.

you of all people should know how apologist statements are formed, you were writing them for years on the old site.
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I think this is one of the most stupid failed attempts at comparison ive ever seen posted on here or the other board...
 
Rektseasider said:
“How many of the international brigade who fought in the Spanish Civil War were banished and had their citizenship revoked when they came back to the UK? I personally can't see the difference.”

if you read the thread you’d understand the point I was making.

The basic point in the above statement, unintentionally or not was one of an apologist.

you of all people should know how apologist statements are formed, you were writing them for years on the old site.
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You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist about not very much. I'm still not sure exactly what it is that you were objecting to about the very reasonable assertion that the girl should be fairly tried before she gets condemned and punished. It's called the rule of law, and if that is to mean anything it has to apply to all of us.
 
basilrobbie said:
You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist about not very much. I'm still not sure exactly what it is that you were objecting to about the very reasonable assertion that the girl should be fairly tried before she gets condemned and punished. It's called the rule of law, and if that is to mean anything it has to apply to all of us.
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Read the thread before you post, it would probably help you form a reply.

I’ve said she should be heard on her Citizenship case, the ruling in that case would then dictate how we proceed.

Comparing the return of the International brigade to how we should treat returning ISIS fighters. Takes some stretch to make.
 
I agree that it might seem a stretch - now. Though not that much of one, in the scheme of things. In fifty years time the conventional view of history might have changed quite a lot.
 
The international brigade were welcomed home as hero’s in some quarters, even by a future British Prime Minister. If we’re at that point in fifty years somethings gone very wrong.
 
Fifty years ago it was still thought OK to call black people "sambo" and "nignog" on national TV.

In fifty years time there is no certainty that this country will have the same attitude to Muslim militancy that it has now.
 
basilrobbie said:
Fifty years ago it was still thought OK to call black people "sambo" and "nignog" on national TV.

In fifty years time there is no certainty that this country will have the same attitude to Muslim militancy that it has now.
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ISIS is not militancy, its a death cult, but hey by following you rationale maybe by next year Stalin will be cool eh. Whats 20 million murdered in the gulags amongst friends
 
Ragnarok said:
ISIS is not militancy, its a death cult, but hey by following you rationale maybe by next year Stalin will be cool eh. Whats 20 million murdered in the gulags amongst friends
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My point was that the world changes, and it is usually the winners of wars who get to write the history. And I'm not sure that the West is winning its fight with Islam.
 
Curryman said:
Perhaps we are singing from the same hymn sheet after all. I find no problem in her being heard from abroad in one of our consulates or an Embassy so long as she is given a fair hearing.
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We have withdrawn all consular staff from Syria as a result of the civil war. It would only be possible to do it from the British consulate in a third country which for obvious reasons won't happen.
 
Scaramanga said:
And we’re not likely to either with people like you who are happy to let people from a murderous cult back into the country.
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Rightly or wrongly there are many who would welcome Ms Begum and her ilk back into the country they (have clearly stated) that they hate.

I agree she should face the law and a fair trial but there will come a time when further attacks are carried out by ISIS returnees and the left wing lynch mob currently demanding their return (Cat, Lytham, Mex, BRR etc...) will adopt their usual modus operandi when an unfortunate truth confronts them - they will either go very quiet, change the subject to some totally unrelated Tory misdemeanour (perceived or real) or lash out and blame the right wing press and/or Tory government and/or Brexit. Bit of a poor show by the self styled moral / intellectual elite me thinks.
 
John Craven's Newsround said:
Rightly or wrongly there are many who would welcome Ms Begum and her ilk back into the country they (have clearly stated) that they hate.

I agree she should face the law and a fair trial but there will come a time when further attacks are carried out by ISIS returnees and the left wing lynch mob currently demanding their return (Cat, Lytham, Mex, BRR etc...) will adopt their usual modus operandi when an unfortunate truth confronts them - they will either go very quiet, change the subject to some totally unrelated Tory misdemeanour (perceived or real) or lash out and blame the right wing press and/or Tory government and/or Brexit. Bit of a poor show by the self styled moral / intellectual elite me thinks.
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Oooh... that Craven Character is a bit of a fibber isn’t he.

And he seems so nice on Countryfile.
 
Scaramanga said:
And we’re not likely to either with people like you who are happy to let people from a murderous cult back into the country.
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I want her to come back so she can be subject to criminal proceedings. I want her to pay a price for what she has done and have no grounds for complaint about unfair treatment or denial of her legal rights. What part of all that do you not understand?

It's like trying to debate with a five year old. I suppose it is my own fault for trying.
 
basilrobbie said:
I want her to come back so she can be subject to criminal proceedings. I want her to pay a price for what she has done and have no grounds for complaint about unfair treatment or denial of her legal rights. What part of all that do you not understand?

It's like trying to debate with a five year old. I suppose it is my own fault for trying.
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Robbie, these days if you believe in the rule of law then apparently you must be a commie/marxist/LWNJ/etc. That seems to be the consensus.
 
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