Total Lockdown Inevitable.

Levi501

Levi501

Well-known member
This Governments piecemeal approach throughout this pandemic, has caused untold misery. Ignoring expert advice, then U’turning later, trying this, trying that in different regions of the Country, till everyones head has almost spun off its neck! This is not political point scoring, it’s what has happened time and again, the ‘Unprecedented’ card has totally outrun its course now IMO. Personally I thought a Total Lockdown should have been brought into effect at the beginning of December, once it was known a vaccine was imminent.
Here we go again, but unfortunately too late!
 
Looks that way.

I wonder whether, of we had taken the war analogy seriously, the entire country was turned to war effort, whether we could have done more.

Imagine if the black out had been as loosely followed as hands, face, space etc.

Anyway, of we essentially shut down all public activity (with from home if you can etc) the UK for a month or two and turn out entire attention to vaccinating, whether we could get through day 10 million people.

That must surely be the aim, we'd then be looking at vaccinating people nearer to the 50's?

Might not even take that long of nothing else was in the way?

Anyway, let's see what they decide and then see how well we follow the rules.
 
Levi501 said:
This Governments piecemeal approach throughout this pandemic, has caused untold misery. Ignoring expert advice, then U’turning later, trying this, trying that in different regions of the Country, till everyones head has almost spun off its neck! This is not political point scoring, it’s what has happened time and again, the ‘Unprecedented’ card has totally outrun its course now IMO. Personally I thought a Total Lockdown should have been brought into effect at the beginning of December, once it was known a vaccine was imminent.
Here we go again, but unfortunately too late!
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Is that not the same situation throughout many other countries in Europe too? Restrictions, tighter restrictions, softening of restrictions repeat. Has any European country really got to grips with it? A simple google will find criticism of both Merkel and Macrons handling of the crisis. So it's not just our govt struggling to cope with this pandemic is it?.
 
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‘ If it keeps irresponsible people off Rivington Pike ‘ !

In all seriousness I can see it coming - even Boris isn’t too far behind the curve ball on this one
 
20togo said:
Is that not the same situation throughout many other countries in Europe too? Restrictions, tighter restrictions, softening of restrictions repeat. Has any European country really got to grips with it?
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Yes but we’ve got the Oxford -AstraZeneca vaccine now, which is an incredible achievement, but Sir John Bell, Regius professor of medicine at Oxford, who was instrumental in forging the partnership between the University & AstraZeneca, has now voiced frustration that years of neglect by successive governments had left the country without the means to manufacture the vaccine at the pace required in this pandemic! Last May the Government said that 30million doses could be available by September past, but then slashed this target, resulting in Hancock saying only 530.000 doses would be ready to go tomorrow! There is no way we can achieve these millions of doses necessary to inoculate the entire Nation before let’s say Easter. I hate to come across all negative, but we should be at the forefront of our European friends now, but as usual years of neglect re the running down of vaccine factories in this country have left us embarrassingly bereft of this essential manufacturing. I fear for these coming months now that everyone is on a high re the vaccine. ☹️
 
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It’s not what I would do.

The vaccination rollout needs to be massively stepped up or they won’t meet targets. Far too much red tape (no surprise there), for the people administering the vaccine. Mostly unnecessary. Just have a Doctor or two present. And if Doctors are unwilling or can’t help with the jabs, they should face a pay cut imo.

It should be local town & city lockdowns only. Those much lower on the daily infection rates should be in Tier 2, eg Blackpool.
It’s a great way to wreck the UK economy, if that’s what they want. I understand they are worried that people will travel eg 30+ miles into Blackburn to go shopping. Just tell people where they can & can’t go to and use the national network of ANPR cameras if necessary, and be seen to be enforcing it. I know for a fact they can tell who has travelled where at any given time.

I see that some schools are refusing to open tomorrow, against Gov wishes. Another fine mess and expect that will be a u-turn by this time next week.
 
The Tier system is open to abuse/accidental misinterpretation IMO, it doesn’t work. The economy is already bolluxed, and this on/off situation is pissing off small business, who buy in stock, perishable in a lot of cases, only to be told to close down again, People involved in Education, whether it be families arranging child care, teachers preparing lessons, school food ordering and preparation, all then to be told to go back into lockdown. As a lifelong libertarian, I hate the idea of this mass taking away of our freedom and rights, but it has to be carried out for our future. So it has got to be a Total no holds barred lockdown from now on.
 
We’ve never done a proper total lockdown and this won’t be it either. The list of exceptions and places that remain open is far too long. Tell people when it’s going to take place and do it. Better to do a hard lockdown over a shorter period imo. Only places to stay open should be hospitals, emergency GP appointments and care homes or similar.
 
tangerine_neil said:
We’ve never done a proper total lockdown and this won’t be it either. The list of exceptions and places that remain open is far too long. Tell people when it’s going to take place and do it. Better to do a hard lockdown over a shorter period imo. Only places to stay open should be hospitals, emergency GP appointments and care homes or similar.
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tangerine_neil said:
We’ve never done a proper total lockdown and this won’t be it either. The list of exceptions and places that remain open is far too long. Tell people when it’s going to take place and do it. Better to do a hard lockdown over a shorter period imo. Only places to stay open should be hospitals, emergency GP appointments and care homes or similar.
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Plus well supervised supermarkets.
 
Nah. Shut them all. Emergency food and supplies parcels from outdoor pickup points only. Supermarkets are and always have been one of the biggest problems.
 
We've been told we can't wreck the economy so many times. I would wager that had we locked down really hard each time there's a wave, then we'd be in a better position economically (or at least no worse) and would actually have had overall, equal or less disruption. Proper lockdown for less time versus this endless 'life on hold but not quite' limbo where nothing quite functions and no one really knows what they can do.

The same argument, time and time again - that we can walk a path between health and wealth. Yet both seem pretty fucked to me.

The problem with localised measures is also that people work. I travel an hour to work. So do many. People crossing in and out of areas all the time. So, realistically, how is that containing the spread? I then mix with my partner who works locally, but people come from an hour in the other direction to her work. We're between us, exposed to people from as far as Ulverston and Southport in fairly close quarters (who are obviously in turn exposed to our potential virulence). But that's allowed and fine under localised tier rules, even though that's three different areas completely...

I dunno tbh, just sick of this and I know someone will go 'but it's different' but fed up of my mate in NZ talking about his exciting weekends and basically normal life.
 
Why would you be asking for another lockdown when every single one of them has failed? Please provide evidence,some data,anything that shows that a lockdown has previously worked. If they worked we wouldnt be in this situation now asking for another one.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
 
Ormergod said:
Why would you be asking for another lockdown when every single one of them has failed? Please provide evidence,some data,anything that shows that a lockdown has previously worked. If they worked we wouldnt be in this situation now asking for another one.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
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No lockdowns don’t work ... except in China, Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam, Taiwan and other places that have the virus under control.

Obviously lockdowns don’t work if you end then prematurely and then encourage every moron on the continent to go and mix germs in Spain all summer. Full, hard lockdown needed now. And sort the borders out!
 
I’m not sure why it ought to be inevitable?

The case numbers appear to have stabilised (so far) over the course of the last week, despite Xmas mixing.

They probably need to hang fire on sending kids back to school for a couple of weeks and see what happens, before implementing even more measures.
 
Levi501 said:
Yes but we’ve got the Oxford -AstraZeneca vaccine now, which is an incredible achievement, but Sir John Bell, Regius professor of medicine at Oxford, who was instrumental in forging the partnership between the University & AstraZeneca, has now voiced frustration that years of neglect by successive governments had left the country without the means to manufacture the vaccine at the pace required in this pandemic! Last May the Government said that 30million doses could be available by September past, but then slashed this target, resulting in Hancock saying only 530.000 doses would be ready to go tomorrow! There is no way we can achieve these millions of doses necessary to inoculate the entire Nation before let’s say Easter. I hate to come across all negative, but we should be at the forefront of our European friends now, but as usual years of neglect re the running down of vaccine factories in this country have left us embarrassingly bereft of this essential manufacturing. I fear for these coming months now that everyone is on a high re the vaccine. ☹️
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mmmm.... I think that's quite a different tack to your original point. My point remains the same. The whole of Europe and their govts are struggling with and trying to control this virus. Like I said in my edit it's not hard to find recent criticism of Macron and Merkel from the people of those countries. I really don't get why people think that we should be unique and know how to handle it any better [or worse] than others.
seasideone said:
Lockdowns do work, but not the way the UK gov do it and the way the UK population behave.
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Are they working in the rest of Europe? Their numbers are rising too. You can split hairs all you want over this type of lockdown, that type of lockdown but to me it seems that whatever type of lockdown you have, as soon as it's relaxed numbers rise again. This virus ain't going anywhere at the moment and a lockdown of any type is only a temporary fix.
 
Ormergod said:
Why would you be asking for another lockdown when every single one of them has failed? Please provide evidence,some data,anything that shows that a lockdown has previously worked. If they worked we wouldnt be in this situation now asking for another one.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
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Thank god for common sense👍🏻
 
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seasideone said:
It is simple really....

Full lockdown and enforced
Borders locked - only allowed in after two weeks gov controlled quarantine
Let virus burn out, lift lockdown
Only open borders again when nation fully immunised.
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This is basically what I’m getting at. A hard, China style lockdown and no travel for 2 wks, with only a few exceptions. We’ve just been playing at it up to now, hence why it hasn’t had significant or quick results in the past. Rather that than drag these tiers out for months.
No other country in the world has such an extensive ANPR camera network which could be used to control borders.
 
20togo said:
mmmm.... I think that's quite a different tack to your original point. My point remains the same. The whole of Europe and their govts are struggling with and trying to control this virus. Like I said in my edit it's not hard to find recent criticism of Macron and Merkel from the people of those countries. I really don't get why people think that we should be unique and know how to handle it any better [or worse] than others.

Are they working in the rest of Europe? Their numbers are rising too. You can split hairs all you want over this type of lockdown, that type of lockdown but to me it seems that whatever type of lockdown you have, as soon as it's relaxed numbers rise again. This virus ain't going anywhere at the moment and a lockdown of any type is only a temporary fix.
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Thing is 20s Europe has played at it....

When we did it here (Singapore) it was enforced and the borders were closed unless you did 2 weeks gov quarantine (in a hotel).

They let the virus burn out and stopped throwing flames on the fire by not letting people in.

They did have major problems in the dorms with the construction sector BUT they tightly locked it down as well and eventually got rid of it.

What we are seeing here now is an average of a couple of cases a week apart from the people in quarantine where it’s about 30 a day.

Reality is if the borders hadn’t been locked then there would be hundreds of people wandering round with the virus and re-spreading it.

Also mask wearing needs to be made mandatory when out of your home as it does help.
 
20togo said:
Is that not the same situation throughout many other countries in Europe too? Restrictions, tighter restrictions, softening of restrictions repeat. Has any European country really got to grips with it? A simple google will find criticism of both Merkel and Macrons handling of the crisis. So it's not just our govt struggling to cope with this pandemic is it?.
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You are correct stating all other countries are using similar tactics. The government are keeping their eye on the situation but every day things are changing and that is why different rules are coming in , not because of a u turn. If we did go into a complete lockdown as many people have wanted, you watch this board go into overdrive.
 
seasideone said:
Thing is 20s Europe has played at it....

When we did it here (Singapore) it was enforced and the borders were closed unless you did 2 weeks gov quarantine (in a hotel).

They let the virus burn out and stopped throwing flames on the fire by not letting people in.

They did have major problems in the dorms with the construction sector BUT they tightly locked it down as well and eventually got rid of it.

What we are seeing here now is an average of a couple of cases a week apart from the people in quarantine where it’s about 30 a day.

Reality is if the borders hadn’t been locked then there would be hundreds of people wandering round with the virus and re-spreading it.

Also mask wearing needs to be made mandatory when out of your home as it does help.
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A couple of points.

I'd say the citizens of China are far more compliant than the countries of Europe and like it or not that is a factor. And that applies to their govt too. Their crackdown on people breaking the rules is far tougher too. That's the price we pay for having our freedom and I'd much prefer the freedoms we have.
Secondly, the virus is already here and rife everywhere. A two week lockdown like you suggest will not imo eradicate the virus. As soon as we came out of that two week lockdown the virus would take hold again and the death rates would start to rise quicker again.
 
C_C_C_Cider said:
You are correct stating all other countries are using similar tactics. The government are keeping their eye on the situation but every day things are changing and that is why different rules are coming in , not because of a u turn. If we did go into a complete lockdown as many people have wanted, you watch this board go into overdrive.
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This board goes into overdrive whatever decision is made. That's AVFTT for you. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Everybody on here offering an opinion is a goddam expert.
 
20togo said:
A couple of points.

I'd say the citizens of China are far more compliant than the countries of Europe and like it or not that is a factor. And that applies to their govt too. Their crackdown on people breaking the rules is far tougher too. That's the price we pay for having our freedom and I'd much prefer the freedoms we have.
Secondly, the virus is already here and rife everywhere. A two week lockdown like you suggest will not imo eradicate the virus. As soon as we came out of that two week lockdown the virus would take hold again and the death rates would start to rise quicker again.
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Regarding compliance from population I totally agree - although China is not a free country where Singapore is.

Yes the punishments are harder in Singapore than the UK if you don’t follow the rules - which I think is fair enough as it works!!!

Not sure where you get two weeks lockdown from as that is the quarantine period for entering the country.

The lock down here was about 2.5 months.
 
seasideone said:
See my reply to 20s above.
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Yes, but we’ve been through that debate already. There are all sorts of reasons why Europe has has a totally different experience, though none of it matters a jot.

The situation is as it is and I don’t see how lamenting the past or making massive assumptions based on imaginary scenarios really helps us tbh.

Given our current circumstances lockdown is only a very temporary and hugely damaging option.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Yes, but we’ve been through that debate already. There are all sorts of reasons why Europe has has a totally different experience, though none of it matters a jot.

The situation is as it is and I don’t see how lamenting the past or making massive assumptions based on imaginary scenarios really helps us tbh.

Given our current circumstances lockdown is only a very temporary and hugely damaging option.
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The point I am making is that it does work if done properly, where you original point is that it doesn’t work.

I was just showing you an example of how it should be done where the results are conclusive 👍
 
seasideone said:
Regarding compliance from population I totally agree - although China is not a free country where Singapore is.

Yes the punishments are harder in Singapore than the UK if you don’t follow the rules - which I think is fair enough as it works!!!

Not sure where you get two weeks lockdown from as that is the quarantine period for entering the country.

The lock down here was about 2.5 months.
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Apologies. I mis-read your post, Thought you were talking two weeks. But if you are talking 2-3 months well I'm afraid for reasons I've already mentioned I just don't see it happening or working. The virus will resurrect itself.
 
Ormergod said:
Why would you be asking for another lockdown when every single one of them has failed? Please provide evidence,some data,anything that shows that a lockdown has previously worked. If they worked we wouldnt be in this situation now asking for another one.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
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Because weve never had a lockdown in the strictest sense of the word, whereas other countries have and have had success with it.

The way out of this is vaccination, of course, but that takes time. Limiting contact in the interim is the next best thing.
 
I noticed a short while ago that over Southern England arriving aircraft from Seattle, Washington, Dallas, Moscow, Ukraine, Milan, Turing, Doha and Dubai and although most of these will be carrying cargo of some sort they are bound for passenger terminals, I did not include dedicated cargo aircraft, so my question is in a total lockdown what is the procedure for incoming passenger arrivals, is it isolation, testing etc and who monitors the thousands arriving each day.
 
20togo said:
Apologies. I mis-read your post, Thought you were talking two weeks. But if you are talking 2-3 months well I'm afraid for reasons I've already mentioned I just don't see it happening or working. The virus will resurrect itself.
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No worries.

I don’t see the UK doing a 2.5 months lockdown either, but whether it would work IF it was followed properly is definitely up for debate.

The main problem as already mentioned, is population compliance.

Unless that could be sorted out, I would suggest it is probably a waste of time.
 
seasideone said:
The point I am making is that it does work if done properly, where you original point is that it doesn’t work.

I was just showing you an example of how it should be done where the results are conclusive 👍
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I don’t agree with you....

Firstly, it hasn’t worked in Singapore, because (as you admit) the virus is still circulating (and) it is still circulating internationally.

So Singapore have only succeeded in suppressing the virus and need to maintain ongoing measures to keep the virus at bay.

That’s before we even consider the significant differences in how the virus was seeded in Singapore when compared to the U.K..
 
How long do you want the lockdown to be because as proven with the November month one is a complete waste of time.
This virus is going nowhere fast and it's going to take a few months to get the over 65's first vaccine then start on the over 50's and give then the second one it could be June before myself and the rest of under 50's get vaccinated should we keep us in Lockdown until then?

So let's us all catch it at some point keep away from the elderly until they have had the jab crack on with life pay our taxes and keep people in work.
 
The countries who have managed it best have a working test and trace system, we don't, after 9 months, we have a broken app and an excel spreadsheet and billions thrown at people who don't know what they're doing.

I don't know why the media aren't asking where our money has gone instead of constantly shaming the population, the BBC reporting has been awful for example, stop parroting the government line and ask some questions for fucks sake.
 
Wizaard said:
Because weve never had a lockdown in the strictest sense of the word, whereas other countries have and have had success with it.

The way out of this is vaccination, of course, but that takes time. Limiting contact in the interim is the next best thing.
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Seems you want to keep ignoring other European countries such as Germany and France and no doubt Italy and Spain where cases are rising again. So how is that a success if they can't control or get to grips with it. They've pretty much done the same with regards to regions, hard lockdowns, soft lockdowns etc.
 
Whitstabletangerine said:
I noticed a short while ago that over Southern England arriving aircraft from Seattle, Washington, Dallas, Moscow, Ukraine, Milan, Turing, Doha and Dubai and although most of these will be carrying cargo of some sort they are bound for passenger terminals, I did not include dedicated cargo aircraft, so my question is in a total lockdown what is the procedure for incoming passenger arrivals, is it isolation, testing etc and who monitors the thousands arriving each day.
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Here - everyone goes into isolation in a hotel for two weeks and are tested multiple times during their stay.

They are bussed in designated busses from the airport to the hotel.

You are not allowed to leave your room, as all food will be delivered three times a day - although you can use a food delivery ap.

There is a fixed cost to this of about 1500 quid which is paid for by the passenger.

A lot of hotels here are full at the moment with COVID quarantine people - helps the hotels as well as they are at least letting rooms!!!!
 
20togo said:
Seems you want to keep ignoring other European countries such as Germany and France and no doubt Italy and Spain where cases are rising again. So how is that a success if they can't control or get to grips with it. They've pretty much done the same with regards to regions, hard lockdowns, soft lockdowns etc.
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Other's failures don't excuse our failures.
 
Track and trace is completely futile when dealing with the levels of infection faced by the U.K. and other EU Countries...

It wouldn’t have mattered how good our system was.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
Other's failures don't excuse our failures.
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absolute bollox. Every country in Europe is failing if you want to call it that. Jeez, people slag off our country and now suddenly you want to put us on this pedestal and think we should know better than the rest of them.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I don’t agree with you....

Firstly, it hasn’t worked in Singapore, because (as you admit) the virus is still circulating (and) it is still circulating internationally.

So Singapore have only succeeded in suppressing the virus and need to maintain ongoing measures to keep the virus at bay.

That’s before we even consider the significant differences in how the virus was seeded in Singapore when compared to the U.K..
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Singapore is open internally and I am free to go out shopping, go for a beer or a meal and have been able since the main lockdown finished in July.

Therefore it has worked.

The only cases in the community recently (past few months) have come from local marine workers checking or working in docked ships or working with people in quarantine or at the airport - which they have now sorted with different protocols.

The fact the UK has shut pretty much everything and here is pretty much open - it’s fair to say it HAS worked.

Today we had zero cases in the community and 25 found in quarantine from travelers.

Yes they are protecting themselves with border closures from the international threat - but that is common sense!!!

Singapore went hard and early when the virus was taking hold - unlike the UK government.

Test and trace also works.
 
20togo said:
absolute bollox. Every country in Europe is failing if you want to call it that. Jeez, people slag off our country and now suddenly you want to put us on this pedestal and think we should know better than the rest of them.
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Do you ever read what you type?

Let's never criticise the manager of the team as other teams are struggling as well.
 
20togo said:
Seems you want to keep ignoring other European countries such as Germany and France and no doubt Italy and Spain where cases are rising again. So how is that a success if they can't control or get to grips with it. They've pretty much done the same with regards to regions, hard lockdowns, soft lockdowns etc.
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I'm saying we've never had a hard lockdown. We're ignoring what Europe are doing on everything else. What's one more thing. I wasnt thinking of Europe, I was thinking wider as we're now supposed to. The successful countries in containing the virus have done it through a far more stringent lockdown than we've attempted. Don't think there's any debate on that.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Track and trace is completely futile when dealing with the levels of infection faced by the U.K. and other EU Countries...

It wouldn’t have mattered how good our system was.
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Perhaps you should’ve had a word in Mr, Johnson’s ear then and saved the Nation £22billion.
 
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