Wizaard
Well-known member
You're wrong, of course. On the day and afterwards there were plenty of threads universally condemning the attack.
Should the UK suspend arms sales to Israel
- Thread starter 1966_and_all_that
- Start date
20togo
Well-known member
How do you know that another hundred or so Palestinians have been killed? Is that a fact? Or a fact reported by the Hamas news agency. Funny how you condemn me for believing what is reported by the BBC but you seem to accept and believe everything being released by Hamas news. See what i did there?
Gaza: Israeli Strike Killing 106 Civilians an Apparent War Crime
An Israeli airstrike on a six-story apartment building sheltering hundreds of people in central Gaza on October 31, 2023, is an apparent war crime, Human Rights Watch said today. The attack, which killed at least 106 civilians, including 54 children, is among the deadliest single incidents for...www.hrw.org
I see that another hundred or so Palestinians have been killed. Just thought I’d mention it otherwise you’d probably not consider it of any importance or relevance to events happening in Gaza. The IDF are clearly continuing with indiscriminate attacks with no thought that the longer they do this then more and more innocent people are going to be killed.
Did you see what I did there?
1966_and_all_that
Well-known member
The Isrseli attack was reported by Human Rights Watch a non-profit organisation based in New York. Human Rights Watch has no association with Hamas.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Eh? But it began with a H? So that must mean Hamas surely?
Wizaard
Well-known member
No wonder Meghan and Prince Hamas get so much stick in the media
1966_and_all_that
Well-known member
As part of a larger group they also won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1997(?) for their anti-landmine work.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Yes. And to address 20s insinuation that the information was obtained via Hamas so is untrue, if he’d read the article he’d have seen the identities of many of the victims were verified from open source material.
54 of the victims were children.
1966_and_all_that
Well-known member
I don't know what's driving him on this one.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Interesting article on how the death figures are almost certainly fabricated: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/16/could-be-devastating-proof-hamas-faking-death-figures/
Professor Abraham Wyner, a data scientist at the University of Pennsylvania, has conducted a thorough analysis. He found that Hamas’s official civilian death toll was statistically impossible. “Most likely, the Hamas ministry settled on a daily total arbitrarily,” he wrote in an incendiary essay in Tablet. “We know this because the daily totals increase too consistently to be real. Then they assigned about 70 per cent of the total to be women and children, splitting that amount randomly from day to day. Then they in-filled the number of men as set by the predetermined total. This explains all the data observed.”
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Linkies?
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Try to War Again thread. Easy enough to search for.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Does his analysis take account of the bodies buried which haven’t been found?
Some independent analysts put the death figure much higher than the official figures.
20togo
Well-known member
based in NY? Are they on the ground in Gaza, free to roam wherever they want and counting dead bodies? Or are Hamas controlling the narrative. Like i said, i get crticisedfor quoting the BBCand here are others quoting imo are far less likely verifiable source.
20togo
Well-known member
that's because that's what you want to believe.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Well have you seen pictures from Gaza?
Do you think it’s possible to blow up that many buildings and there be no buried bodies?
1966_and_all_that
Well-known member
And if the death count has been fabricated by Hamas. Are they the only source? What causes you so much grief about that? What drives you to want to find misrepresentation in a war where hostages have been taken and killed and the IDF has come back with a discomensurate response? Is it a game to you. Do you badly need one side to win, like a football match? This conflict has gone way beyond the allowable.
1966_and_all_that
Well-known member
What's driving you 20s? You've contributed 69 replies on here in a very determined manner. Why?
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
You haven’t been criticised for quoting the BBC.
You’ve been pulled up for claiming that because the BBC report IDF claims then that must mean the IDF claims are true. The BBC said no such thing.
They said “This is what the IDF claimed.” They did NOT say “This is what the IDF claimed. So it must be true”. That second bit is what you made up.
20togo
Well-known member
you said i'd been misrepresenting the bbc. All i did was quote what they said. Doesn't matter whether it's true or not what they said, I was NOT misrepresenting them.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
But you’ve posted loads of times talking about Hamas gunmen in the WCK warehouse. Definitely. And UNWRA personnel being involved in 7/10. Definitely. As if those were proven facts.
Who knows? Maybe those things happened. But the truth is I don’t know. You don’t know. And the BBC don’t know. All the BBC are doing is reporting IDF claims. But you’ve then asserted the IDF claims must therefore be true because they were repeated by the BBC.
That’s what you’ve been pulled up on.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
That's one, and it was hijacked by the "free Palestine" brigade from day one.
Where's the "plenty of threads universally condemning the attack"?
Link, if anyone wants to check: https://avftt.co.uk/index.php?threads/war-again.47314/
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Well that’s your take.
Before you try to claim the moral highground I seem to recall you advocated the forcible removal (ie ethnic cleansing) of all Palestinians from Gaza as the only viable long term solution. That was one of 20s redlines before he likes your post.
You then failed to address what impact the ethnic cleansig of Gaza would have on illegal immigration to the U.K.
Well I’m sorry Mr Impartial but you fell at the first hurdle. Send the bot back to Tufty Street for a reboot.
20togo
Well-known member
mmmm...but the bbc post updates about the daily increase in number of deaths by the claims of Hamas. It cuts both ways and i'm sure there's plenty of posts in some form or another about that.
And you come across as being about just as impartial as Lost. Let's face it, this thread was started with the sole intention of being anything but impartial.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Whereas you are in favour of permanent war in Palestine, so not exactly beyond reproach yourself.
In any event, @Wizaard's claim was a fabrication, as usual.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Well I agree. Sort of. It is difficult to be impartial when thousands of children have been killed.
My one constant is that we have to stop the killing. Will a ceasefire provide a long term solution? No. So why do it? To save the lives of more children alive now but otherwise who will be dead soon.
That was my point months ago. Since when many, many children have died. And without a ceasefire many more will die.
And, longer term, you’re not going to find a solution while the killing continues. But obviously a solution a long way away. It’s the killing right now that’s the issue. So stop it. And take the first step.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Obviously I don’t favour permanent war. See my last post to 20s. In a nutshell, you won’t find a solution while you continue killing. All you’ll find are more corpses. Many of which will be children.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Really?
I'd suggest I'm much more impartial than most, that's why I often end up holding unpopular opinions, and if I agree with everybody, then what's the point in posting anyway?
The fact that I come down heavily on the side of Israel (and I've barely posted on this thread) is not a pro-Israeli bias, it's my reading of the facts as I see them.
The reality is that those calling for a ceasefire, or a "two-state solution", are simply asking for Hamas to be given the opportunity to regroup and go again, and I don't see how any country in the world could allow such a situation to persist.
Plus, there is the issue that we are now, de facto, at war with Russia, Iran, and to a lesser extent China/NK, and I'd much rather our ally, Israel, won rather than lost.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Fuck me!! And you accused me of wanting permanent war.
Let’s dump 2m refugees in Egypt. That’ll add to World Peace and stability in the west when a good number of them start wandering through Europe and rocking up at Dover. To say nothing of Israeli security when Egypt collapses under the strain, the Muslim Brotherhood returns to power and the country becomes an Islamic state.
Are you actually a Russian Bot? Or just incredibly dense?
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
You've no better idea, though, have you?
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
How you think any of that follows from the post you quoted is beyond me.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
@Mexboroseasider
One final point, I've never advocated forced deportation, what I have asked is if anyone has any better ideas, so far the silence is deafening.
One final point, I've never advocated forced deportation, what I have asked is if anyone has any better ideas, so far the silence is deafening.
Wizaard
Well-known member
In what way? The attack was condemned by all, just as most sane people now condemn the disproportionate response.
You really follow the Goebbels Theory of tell a lie often enough and it becomes accepted.
Over the last few weeks you've said that the sewage issue was nothing thst could be controlled for starters.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Not on any thread I've seen it wasn't, but if you feel like providing links to the "plenty of threads universally condemning the attack" I'll stand corrected.
20togo
Well-known member
yep i can buy into a lot that. I'm not sure how we can get a permanent cease fire as things stand. Long term? Well. there's clearly a great deal of dissent in Israel about how the situation is being handled by Netanyahu and questions are being asked if this is the right or best way to bring about the release of the hostages. So Netanyahu may well be gone next election time. But who is gonna get rid of Hamas if Netanyahu and the IDF can't?
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
For peace in the Middle East? No I don’t have a magic wand.
But anyone with half a brain can see that dumping 2m refugees into Egypt, pushing a currently non belligerent nation into chaos and creating an Islamic republic on Israel’s doorstep, is unlikely to enhance the security of Israel.
FFS!!! Do you never learn? Bomb the shit out of Libya, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan and Libyan, Syrian, Iraqi and Afghan refugees turn up in the U.K. Well feck me!!! How did that happen?
But instead of learning the lesson, the big takeaway is let’s turn a blind eye to the bombing of Gaza. Let’s drive 2m refugees out of their homes.
You’d think national self interest alone (before we get into the issue of the morality of it) would engage a few brain cells. But apparently not.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
The short answer is I don’t think you can get rid of Hamas in the sense of eradicating it. If Netanyahu hasn’t achieved that in six months, then it’s not going to happen.
The immediate objective is to do a deal to achieve a ceasefire. There’s plenty of examples of how Israel and its “implacable enemies” (including Hamas) have done that in the past. Without that there’s only bodies. And frankly a ceasefire is in Israel’s interest. Even Trump recognises they have gone too far and are haemorrhaging support around the world.
After that it’s a case of baby steps over decades (with set backs along the way). Rabin would be a good example of that. Hawk to Dove and killed by more hawkish hawks. But he was moving slowly in the right direction.
On a smaller scale we achieved it in NI. A seemingly intractable problem resolved with what for many was an unpalatable accommodation.
In short I don’t have an answer. But I do know it doesn’t lie in killing and ethnic cleansing.
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To be fair it’s an unbelievably mad
Good point, another 2 million muslim brothers to come and live in Europe this year, wonderful
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Lets be honest it’s insane - How many people lived in the UK in the 60’s, 50 million.
What are we now and growing.
Worst still we are importing a crazy religion.
Mad but uck it
Archibald Knox
Well-known member
I think you mean Yitzhak Rabin as the peacemaker, who was assassinated by a far-right Jewish terrorist in Tel Aviv in 1995. A decent and perceptive man. Sadly, that’s been called the “most successful” political assassination in recent history, given the extreme rightward direction Israel followed afterwards in expanding the “Greater Israel” into the West Bank.
Not Ariel Sharon, who was a Likud founder member and as Defence Minister directly responsible for the invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Sharon stood by and did nothing for a week, thus condoning the ethnic cleansing and massacre of a thousand or more Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut by Lebanese Maronite “Christian” militia, while the IDF army tanks watched their backs. He was eventually forced to resign for that indefensible and sickening behaviour. So, you see Likud has form for this sort of thing going back many years.
But your point is essentially correct. It is going to take decades for this atrocious violence on both sides to be overcome. Long after the guilty men are all dead. But someone needs to see the long view or the violence will grow and could result in an even greater conflagration in the Middle East. Israel has nuclear weapons and, given what they have sanctioned in Gaza, I would not put it beyond these Likud hawks to use them if threatened by another country (we all know which one).
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Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
just watched it thought it needed it’s own thread to get the message over.No doubt it will end up a slagging match again between common sense and the anti Israeli brigade.
Wizaard
Well-known member
I've said it many times over the last six months, the events of 7th October are completely indefensible. I don't think there has been a single post by anyone saying they were.
No doubt it will end up a slagging match again between common sense and the anti Israeli brigade.
Six months later, the revenge goes on unabated, with over 30,000 dead, the vast majority of whom are innocent bystanders.
No one comes out well of the whole situation and I can't see either side really pushing to resolve it either.
I'm not, and never have been, anti Israeli.
I'm against the needless slaughter of men women and children on all sides.
What I have said is that the understandable Israeli response has gone way, way, way beyond being proportionate.
Don't forget common sense isn't all that. William Wragg was on the Committee for Common Sense chaired by Esther McVey, the Minister for Common Sense. That went well for him.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Yeah you’re right. I did mean Rabin. Edited thanks.
20togo
Well-known member
Israel-Gaza: Inside IDF's detailed briefing on aid convoy attack
Israel's military gives its account of how mistakes led to the killing of seven aid workers in Gaza.
www.bbc.co.uk
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
And that glosses over a lot of the worst things that happened on 7/10.
Archibald Knox
Well-known member
Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh says three of his sons and several of his grandchildren have been killed in an Israeli air strike in Gaza.
His response? He said he thanked God for what he called the "honour bestowed on me with the martyrdom of my children and grandchildren".
I would expect nothing less from the Leader of a Death Cult.
By the way, he has lived quite safely for the past few years in Qatar,
... there’s that Qatar link again.
His response? He said he thanked God for what he called the "honour bestowed on me with the martyrdom of my children and grandchildren".
I would expect nothing less from the Leader of a Death Cult.
By the way, he has lived quite safely for the past few years in Qatar,
... there’s that Qatar link again.