🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿English Football Will Be Better Without Big Six

Lytham_fy8 said:
There won't be the same PL money coming in to the game as like it or not, Sky or whoever won't pay the same amount for the rights and how do you know it'll get distributed more equally, it's still the PL with the same chief exec.
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Don’t disagree Sky will pay less money but Other clubs will get more TV exposure.
At the moment a Big 6 club barely does not have there game screened.
I think there is a good chance that the lot will be better spread out down the leagues.
This could veil a massive opportunity to right the wrongs (in relation to tv money allocation) that clubs like Blackpool have suffered over the years.
I think individual opinion depends on how they values the cumulative value of the 86 clubs verses the Big Six.
Unfortunately, I think the ESL WON’T happen, the Big 6 will bottle it. 🚌🧡🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
 
I’ll wager the majority will still go and watch if they remain in the Premiership, they might not support them in the esl, but the clubs won’t mind, they’ve got guaranteed income and more than likely a whole new world to pay them. It’s a win, win for them unless it can be stopped.
 
I listened last night to the Seasider’s podcast and there was a mighty good and intelligent discussion. I couldn't do any work this morning because of a server issue so thought I'd put down what I've been thinking since I heard about these proposals.

I saw earlier a football financial expert saying it could be very lucrative for the owners of these clubs, but he thought it was a tawdry exercise. Several years ago there was an article in a marketing journal that asked the question; how do you turn customers into fans? Fans being better because of the loyalty attachments they have. Not long after, I saw an argument from a football finance company stating that the idea of fans was antiquated and clubs needed to looks at their fans more as customers, because football clubs are businesses after all, which I seem to remember was the exact opinion expressed by the bowl headed one.

In this example there are two opposing points of view, and they are opposing points of view, one view is pushing loyalty and lasting relationships, even if it is based on increasing earnings and profit, the other, maximal exploitation for maximal immediate gain. There is a common refrain now amongst those who study business that big companies no longer strive to be better than the competition, the model for success is to simply obliterate the competition; they buy them outright or use not entirely regular practices and methods to put any competition out of business, or they co-operate with competition and create a cartel.

Once real competition has been eliminated then it is a simple matter of how many people can you attract to your product. Anything new onto the market can be supressed. Anyone who works in banking or energy will understand the difficulties with setting up a new bank or energy company because the cartel is opposed to competition from outside the immediate group. At least one potential member has talked about leaving behind “legacy fans” to pursue Asian markets and all that entails. What we are in for is a travelling football circus, one week Real Madrid vs Manchester United played in a mega stadium in Las Vegas and the following week Liverpool vs Juventus in China somewhere, or Saudi Arabia or anywhere they can get enough corporate sponsorship. A 20 league team creates over 700 games per year that is 700 bids every year to host games. That’s another profit point.

A second point to understand from the business side is that ownership is currently much more preferable to production in respect of generating profit and wealth and securing ongoing success. Productive endeavour is always subject to the whims of customers, innovation, competition and so on. The participants own the league, the participants own the broadcasting rights and in this day and age could easily create the platform on which to broadcast. They control who enters, and they control who gets access, and with all of this ownership, their productive output ie, playing the game becomes a secondary concern, and it doesn’t even matter whether it’s a shit game they are not really playing for anything, other than money.

Because there is no relegation or promotion, the league gets structured to ensure that every game means something, all but the bottom couple of teams get involved in a play-off, which is something I suppose to play for, but it means that champions are no longer champions. Eventually every game will have to include some kind of trophy presentation at the end of it to give it meaning.

There will be no natural rivalries, most of the followers will be Asians simply based on population size, Asiatic Manure supporters will be told that they have to have an intense hatred of Asiatic Liverpool supporters; it will be promoted as such. We will get to see TV pictures on the preceeding days of a game of 13 year old Asian girls in their manga inspired I hate Man U shirts, pretending to hate classmates in similar I hate manure shirts.

Because it will be a travelling circus, clubs will not be based in home cities or even home countries. Everything can be moved to Luxembourg, or Panama or anywhere else where there are preferable tax regimes. Also, all those Asian supporters are going to want to see Asian players. There are already instances where big teams across Europe have players from regions to stimulate foreign viewers and attract foreign sponsors. That will only become more prevalent. I used to work in Formula One and once you go past the top 6 drivers everyone else is there because they bring sponsorship money. Good drivers start to interest sponsors from a very early age, expect the same to happen with an entirely financially driven football rather than just a mostly financially driven football.

With Asia being the prime market, gambling will play a big part and we know how that turns out. The Italian game is already riven with betting and game fixing scandals, the Spanish and South American Leagues have had more than one instance. It would be naïve to think that betting syndicates have not had influence in the English leagues. Expect this to become an issue for the league owners: one team running away with the league means that games potentially become too ones sided, potential viewer drop off, sponsor drop off and horror of horrors revenue drop off. So a little manoeuvring can smooth out and equalise the situation to maintain enough interest, an dthe betting profits.

The next big issue for the new league owners to resolve is potential rivals taking their revenues, national leagues will be taken over by this grouping and closed down because a cartel does not want any competition, expect very quickly a legal challenge that they own football rights globally. Any professional league or semi-professional and potentially quite a lot of amateur leagues that get formed will come under the scrutiny of very well paid legal enforcers. Anyone who knows American Football knows how the college Sports systems work, players are amateurs, earn nothing at all from the game while the institutions, the administrators, coaches etc all pocket millions. Some College stadiums in the US are as big as Wembley and get filled out. That is the way forward with local football, academy teams that are amateur but can create another stream of pure profit with almost no cost.

I base all of this on the idea that UEFA and FIFA and the FA et al will capitulate and grant the wishes of these clubs because the administrators who make the decisions will be given personal financial reward and we have already seen how that works. Once the cartel has purchased the approval of the administrators, then they can set about all the other changes in the game. The rules will quickly change to enable increased advertised, 4 hour televised extravaganzas with maybe half an hour of actual playing time, the Americans don’t like football because there are not enough goals, expect something that would change that: a closely matched and tactical 1-0 (think about what we saw last weekend, how many of you were on the edge of your seat the whole game) is not what the sponsors and American League oweners want for the internationally viewed highlights programme.

You can say goodbye to international football there will be no need; the Olympics can take care of that every four years or so because the OOC will gladly pull off the hand of any organisation that offers it money.

It’s a somewhat cynical point of view, but what is happening in football is happening in almost every industry. Big companies do not like competition, they don’t want competition it really fucks with the bottom line, and this thinking is driven by corporate leaders who are in it exclusively for themselves, customers don't matter, employees do not matter – get in line or get out, shareholders don’t matter and the worse is that the future doesn’t matter. Everything is thought of in two or three year cycles which drives radical profitising, risky management, abusive agreements and so on.

Just to raise another little point from the discussion last night, I’m not sure you can compare this situation to what Blackpool have been through. There are some similarities in that the EFL and PL enabled owners such as what we had, but I think what is going on here is a genuine fight for the future of football.

What’s the solution? Personally, I think let them go. You could say that the supporters of these clubs are the ones that lose out, but the reality is that they have already lost their clubs. Old Trafford, Anfield, Highbury, and the rest as the guys on the podcast last night said, are full of tourists and corporate hangers on. The fans have already been abandoned and have already been priced out of the game. Most of them probably can’t afford the subscriptions to watch the games on TV. The fans can build new clubs that will have the heart and soul of the community which made these corporate entities initially valuable. They can claim the history. The problem is going to be the administrators and regulators. If they capitulate and let it happen then we are on the road to my cynical world view. If they resist and kick these teams out of national competitions, then the ESL collapses in a few years, because the model is fundamentally unsustainable. The model needs the regulatory mechanisms to allow the Cartel to function. The EPL is successful because the authorities (FA, EFL, EPL) have and give it a regulatory leeway to do whatever it wants, whilst at the same time allowing it to supress the EFL teams and grass roots football through financial means.

There is a great comparison to the banking sector. Banks today in most parts of the world are fundamentally unsustainable, the only reason they are not all bankrupt is because national and internal banking regulations are specifically designed to ensure that banks do not collapse. As I think someone said last night on the podcast it’s time for a re-set of the game, this proposal might be it.
 
The Premier League wont throw the six out . How can they market a League where the biggest clubs are Everton , Villa and Leeds? The TV and sponsorship would massively be reduced for that and whether you like it or not, that will filter down the leagues. What they will do is fudge it and let them stay in. They will have a massive 300 million pound advantage every year over the other teams, be able to rest players whenever and not have to worry about qualification. They get exactly what they want and then Sky will try to market a much diminished product.
The fans of those big 6 clubs might be making a big noise now but the worm will turn. How long before they get sick of people attacking their clubs and start defending them? Its a natural reaction when everybody is having a go at your own club and football morals will eventually go out of the window. We will eventually arrive at a new normal and if you think football was lost before it will never be found again after this.
The thing that angers me is how we got here and gave so much power to a handful of clubs so that they can take over the game. Uefa, Sky etc are all complicit.
 
Matesrates said:
I see Boris is holding talks this afternoon with leaders of the FA, Premier League and fans groups this afternoon to discuss the situation. Quick reaction and very welcome. I wonder if other European governments and Eu leaders are doing the same.
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Talk is cheap.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
I listened last night to the Seasider’s podcast and there was a mighty good and intelligent discussion. I couldn't do any work this morning because of a server issue so thought I'd put down what I've been thinking since I heard about these proposals.

I saw earlier a football financial expert saying it could be very lucrative for the owners of these clubs, but he thought it was a tawdry exercise. Several years ago there was an article in a marketing journal that asked the question; how do you turn customers into fans? Fans being better because of the loyalty attachments they have. Not long after, I saw an argument from a football finance company stating that the idea of fans was antiquated and clubs needed to looks at their fans more as customers, because football clubs are businesses after all, which I seem to remember was the exact opinion expressed by the bowl headed one.

In this example there are two opposing points of view, and they are opposing points of view, one view is pushing loyalty and lasting relationships, even if it is based on increasing earnings and profit, the other, maximal exploitation for maximal immediate gain. There is a common refrain now amongst those who study business that big companies no longer strive to be better than the competition, the model for success is to simply obliterate the competition; they buy them outright or use not entirely regular practices and methods to put any competition out of business, or they co-operate with competition and create a cartel.

Once real competition has been eliminated then it is a simple matter of how many people can you attract to your product. Anything new onto the market can be supressed. Anyone who works in banking or energy will understand the difficulties with setting up a new bank or energy company because the cartel is opposed to competition from outside the immediate group. At least one potential member has talked about leaving behind “legacy fans” to pursue Asian markets and all that entails. What we are in for is a travelling football circus, one week Real Madrid vs Manchester United played in a mega stadium in Las Vegas and the following week Liverpool vs Juventus in China somewhere, or Saudi Arabia or anywhere they can get enough corporate sponsorship. A 20 league team creates over 700 games per year that is 700 bids every year to host games. That’s another profit point.

A second point to understand from the business side is that ownership is currently much more preferable to production in respect of generating profit and wealth and securing ongoing success. Productive endeavour is always subject to the whims of customers, innovation, competition and so on. The participants own the league, the participants own the broadcasting rights and in this day and age could easily create the platform on which to broadcast. They control who enters, and they control who gets access, and with all of this ownership, their productive output ie, playing the game becomes a secondary concern, and it doesn’t even matter whether it’s a shit game they are not really playing for anything, other than money.
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Really good post that.

I listened to the pod cast last night and thought it was a good listen although I disagreed with some points they raised, largely around the capitalism element.
For me the super league largely moves away from the parts of capitalism that made football the success it was prior to 9:30 on Sunday evening.

All football clubs need self interest for the essence of the game to work, but it has to be rational. The Super League is completely irrational for all the points you raise in detail.

I’ve come to pretty much the same conclusions as yourself, it’s going to happen because the global market is a bigger pull than this small rock, get rid of the 12 from everything. Let them become the Globetrotters of football, we have to use this as the great reset in football.

The fans of the 6 in this country will likely have to start Phoenix clubs.

The biggest reset will need to come from the governors of our game. It has to be fairer, more balanced and more entertaining in the future.
 
Torycorner said:
No another missing my point.

I am FOR the ESL as I believe English Football will be better off without the greedy Big 6.

What’s mushroom about me choosing to watch “Circus Football” on TV but not in preference to me watching my “Beloved” BFC play “CompetitiveFootball” live.??? 🚌🧡🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
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Stop confusing people, Tory. 😁
 
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Agree with much of what Costero P said.

On Sunday night my first thought was let the Dirty Dozen go, kick them out of their domestic leagues.
A knee-jerk reaction, I admit.
But thinking again, it's what needs to be done.

For the last 30 years or so, the big clubs (either in England or across Europe) have been threatening to break away.
Every time, they've been bought off by being given a bigger share of the pot, more influence or a revamped European Cup / Champs League that suits them better.
But still they come back every few years saying it's not enough, we want / "need" more. Often because they've mismanaged and run up more debt.
And the authorities cave in again and again and give them more.

This will never end, the mega clubs will never be satisfied, they'll always demand more.
So sod 'em, kick them out.
Like you say, let them all become a travelling circus pandering to the Asian market.
That's the dream scenario anyway for the Glazers, Fenway Sports Group and their pals, pocketing the TV rights directly and milking their millions of global followers. The fans who go to games, even the expanded fanbase across the UK, are insignificant small fry to them.
 
Genuine fans of the big 6 will need to copy NAPM
Fans of all clubs should contact their tv suppliers to let them know they will stop their contracts
 
I'm 100% against any ESL and have always been. However football in this country is and will not be the same without those six clubs. That's the way it's been for over a hundred years. If push comes to shove though and those clubs persist with this course of action then yep, let's kick 'em out. The problem then is for the players to decide on which path to take and will be more of a problem for the English players involved at those clubs.
 
Toastrack said:
Like you say, let them all become a travelling circus pandering to the Asian market.
PNENIL said:
The Premier League wont throw the six out . How can they market a League where the biggest clubs are Everton , Villa and Leeds? The TV and sponsorship would massively be reduced for that and whether you like it or not, that will filter down the leagues. What they will do is fudge it and let them stay in. They will have a massive 300 million pound advantage every year over the other teams, be able to rest players whenever and not have to worry about qualification. They get exactly what they want and then Sky will try to market a much diminished product.

The thing that angers me is how we got here and gave so much power to a handful of clubs so that they can take over the game. Uefa, Sky etc are all complicit.
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The thing is for me, ultimately you cannot have both versions, if the ESL is going to work it has to control football globally, in the same way that the NFL controls amercian football globally through its franchise system, the financial models do not work if you cannot monopolise / cartelise it. Either the current football authorities take the initiative and re-shape the game (and exclude these clubs), or they capitulate and they will be irrelevant in a decade, they will just be absorbed into the Super League system through sheer financial weight. it would start small the super league wants and buys representation on the PL, FA and EFL boards, then it buys influence and implements change.

If the EPL throws out the six, and lets say UEFA ban the players involved from international competition ( i understand that there would be legal challenges), we suddenly have a situation where players have to make a decison mega money or ambition rather than ambition and lots of money and some will go, you can imagine Neymar, Suarez, and quite a few others who have been totally mercenary. i think the majority of players are in the first instance fans they play because they love playing.

Imagine you were promoting a league where the mega money had left: at the start of the season you had 20 teams where any one of them could win the league and any three of them could be relegated. That is something that is very, very marketable.
 
They were prattling on about "legacy fans" yesterday, i.e. fans who liked or at least tolerated things as they are. They had another ready term that I can't recall for the spoonfed TV/"would you like more onions (mushrooms?) with your Dog and Coors Ultra Pisslight sir" brigade that they are now clearly targeting. They've realised there is way more money to be squeezed from the tourist or TV devotee than the traditional somewhat demanding fan.
 
Bloodtangerine said:
I can’t see it happening the more I read, hear about it.

But what the hell do I know. Plenty of fans of the Shitly owned 6 on radio and tv saying they will not go to see their teams ever again if this happens including fans who have had season tickets for 30 years etc
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The problem is the owners of the 6 have little regard for their domestic fans when they can make more money from TV and foreign revenue. It will interesting to see what the PL and the other 14 clubs say today. I would vote them out of the PL. These clubs really do want to cream most of the income from both Europe and England
 
I think it will happen. These Yank owners have no concept of tradition and community. They don't understand tribalism at its worst and the deep hatred for certain opponents. They don't understand that vicious intimidating atmosphere where you don't know whether or not you are going to get home from an away game unscathed. Legging it down the prom away from 300 Birmingham Zulu warriors and all you were doing was having a stroll with the mrs.
Liverpool fans have threatened to burn down the stadium. I for one believe them and if I were those Yank owners I would get out of dodge rapido because there is one thing scousers understand "People power is far more powerful than the people in power."
It really is a case of watch this space.
 
Jakeyr said:
We can easily lose the 6 if we replace them with Rangers and Celtic
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That’s something I’d consider as well. But obviously they’d have to start down the pyramid.

I think they’d both go for it as well.
 
It's the Champions League that is the problem and the absolute financial necessity for the Dirty Dozen (DD) to be in it every year.

That is what these DD clubs want and to control their own TV rights. It makes me laugh when the UEFA and FIFA try to take the moral high ground. Year after year of corrupt behavior and now this faux outrage because their cozy little existence is being threatened. It is quite telling that the Bundesliga have not made any comment yet probably because they haven't sold their souls to the devil and maintain fan ownership.

Why not let them have this ESL? There is a certain inevitability to it if you look at how American sports is packaged. As long as there is a mechanism where other leading clubs in Europe (including clubs from the DD countries) can qualify on merit each year to supplement the Dirty Dozen to give 24 (to 32) teams then I can live with that. Let's face it the prestige of FA Cup (and League Cup) has been eroded by the Big 6 and if they are excluded and it may pave the way for "The Rest" to qualify for the ESL via that route. As a result it may re-energise these competitions.

A revised version of the Europa League could also provide an additional route to qualify for the ESL. There will be winners and losers in this upheaval but not the disaster that is looming if the DD (and their players) are ostracized from European and International football.
 
I don’t know what everyone is moaning at. As soon as Sky got involved in football and started throwing stupid money at it this was inevitable and we are the ones feeding it. Now the likes of Netflix, Amazon and Disney will be bidding for rights an ESL makes total sense. Remember this is just the beginning and as time goes on more clubs will be invited to join.
As this thing grows and becomes more lucrative then it could morph into a global league or similar and that is exciting.
Football as a single nation sport is dead so it is time to expand and reform with the strongest clubs prospering and the weaker clubs withering away, which for some would be a blessing.
 
Jefflynnessongsheet said:
I don’t know what everyone is moaning at. As soon as Sky got involved in football and started throwing stupid money at it this was inevitable and we are the ones feeding it. Now the likes of Netflix, Amazon and Disney will be bidding for rights an ESL makes total sense. Remember this is just the beginning and as time goes on more clubs will be invited to join.
As this thing grows and becomes more lucrative then it could morph into a global league or similar and that is exciting.
Football as a single nation sport is dead so it is time to expand and reform with the strongest clubs prospering and the weaker clubs withering away, which for some would be a blessing.
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Exactly. I was having a look last year at the season ticket prices in the NFL and they are outrageous, but supply and demand dictates the price of those.

All down to people paying to watch it on TV which is also mirrored with the movie industry-particularly the British Film industry which used to be the hallmark of quality.
 
GrahamwantshisOates said:
What’s all the fuss about!

I clearly remember 1991 when there was an outcry of changing the league system.
There was a suggestion of forming a Premier League.
Surely it cannot go ahead was the general opinion.
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In many ways I wish it hadn't . Best thing about the Premier league is that we lit it up in bright tangerine for a season:)
 
Toastrack said:
Agree with much of what Costero P said.

On Sunday night my first thought was let the Dirty Dozen go, kick them out of their domestic leagues.
A knee-jerk reaction, I admit.
But thinking again, it's what needs to be done.

For the last 30 years or so, the big clubs (either in England or across Europe) have been threatening to break away.
Every time, they've been bought off by being given a bigger share of the pot, more influence or a revamped European Cup / Champs League that suits them better.
But still they come back every few years saying it's not enough, we want / "need" more. Often because they've mismanaged and run up more debt.
And the authorities cave in again and again and give them more.

This will never end, the mega clubs will never be satisfied, they'll always demand more.
So sod 'em, kick them out.
Like you say, let them all become a travelling circus pandering to the Asian market.
That's the dream scenario anyway for the Glazers, Fenway Sports Group and their pals, pocketing the TV rights directly and milking their millions of global followers. The fans who go to games, even the expanded fanbase across the UK, are insignificant small fry to them.
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When the Premier League was formed, they took 97% of central monies away from the Football League. The divide only got wider and wider in the years thereafter.

As you stated, the bigger clubs kept getting more and more of the revenues with continual threats to leave the league. So this errosion of competition has been steadily accumulating in the background and by and large out of sight of the average fan. It made for an increasingly boring, non-competitive league which was only really tolerated by bigging up the cost of relegation to sides competing at the bottom.

The only real change this week is that instead of clandestine moves in the background to gradually grab more and more of the revenue, they have given up on the charade predending there is any sporting integrity left, and instead gone the whole hog and blatently tried to grab it all and guarantee never ending streams of wealth.

This is exactly why, for nearly 30 years of The Premier League, I have never given a single penny to Sky or any similar broadcasters as they were happy to promote such an uneven distribution of money which was inevitably going to lead to the events we've seen this week.
 
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