2 MPs in trouble today

Mexboroseasider said:
Obviously Israeli children deserve as much protection as Palestinian children. A ceasefire would achieve that, although I agree Hamas can’t be trusted.

Meanwhile 80% of Israelis blame Netanyahu for the 7th October terror attacks. And he knows a ceasefire would only allow that criticism to grow.

news.sky.com

Few trust Netanyahu in Israel and he will struggle to convince West of 'axis of evil' threat

A recent poll said 80% of Israelis think Netanyahu should be held responsible for the 7 October terror attacks. He is not supported by many in the security establishment and although calls for him to resign are small right now in the middle of a war, he knows that moment is coming.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
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It was Hamas who carried out the terrorist attacks. They are to blame. Netanyahu is responsible for the Israeli response.
 
Lost Seasider said:
What is Labour's policy on a ceasefire?

Sir Keir might not have called for one personally, but many of his front bench have, as well as many other prominent Labour figures, all without sanction so far.

Who is espousing the true Labour position? Sir Keir, or those who are calling for a ceasefire.
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The party position is to have a pause for humanitarian reasons, which doesn't extend to a full ceasefire demand, in line with the UN.
 
Lost Seasider said:
As I said, you're effectively calling for the destruction of Israel, and all the Jews who live there, if you don't think that's extreme then so be it.
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The two state solution doesn’t call for the destruction of Israel. And that solution was accepted by the PLO and several Arab countries several decades ago. That was the direction the Middle East was slowly heading in under Rabin. Until he was murdered by an extremist Zionist.

Now ask yourself what’s happened since then and who has been refusing to abide by Accords and treaties. And who has been cosying up to the fanatics and murderers in Hamas so he can sideline the more moderate Palestinian Authority is the West Bank. I’ll answer that for you. His name is Netanyahu.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
The two state solution doesn’t call for the destruction of Israel. And that solution was accepted by the PLO and several Arab countries several decades ago. That was the direction the Middle East was slowly heading in under Rabin. Until he was murdered by an extremist Zionist.

Now ask yourself what’s happened since then and who has been refusing to abide by Accords and treaties. And who has been cosying up to the fanatics and murderers in Hamas so he can sideline the more moderate Palestinian Authority is the West Bank. I’ll answer that for you. His name is Netanyahu.
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For every ying there is a yang. Rabin was killed by zionist extremists. Hamas defeated Abbas in elections which, whilst democratic, has allowed the terrorists to govern (and dictate to) the Palestinians.
 
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1966_and_all_that said:
For every ying there is a yang. Rabin was killed by zionist extremists. Hamas defeated Rabin in elections which, whilst democratic, has allowed the terrorists to govern (and dictate to) the Palestinians.
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Rabin was the PM of Israel and was murdered in 1995. Hamas won the elections in Gaza in 2006 so I can’t see how they beat Rabin? I haven’t checked but I think that election was principally between Hamas and Fatah.

Hamas only control Gaza. Fatah control the West Bank. So Hamas don’t govern all Palestinians.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Rabin was the PM of Israel and was murdered in 1995. Hamas won the elections in Gaza in 2006 so I can’t see how they beat Rabin? I haven’t checked but I think that election was principally between Hamas and Fatah.

Hamas only control Gaza. Fatah control the West Bank. So Hamas don’t govern all Palestinians.
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Sorry, wrong person. I meant Abbas.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Sorry, wrong person. I meant Abbas.
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Well I hope you’re not advising Starmer on his current stance if you’re confusing a former Israeli PM (probably the best and most decent that country has ever had) who was murdered by an Israeli fanatic in 1995, with the current leader of Fatah and the West Bank.

Fatah by the way have renounced armed resistance against Israel. A green light to Netanyahu and the extremist settlers to grab more land in the West Bank. Close to 90 dead Palestinians since the 7th October. Entirely separate to what’s happening in Gaza by the way.
 
Sven said:
No, I'm not calling for that at all. What a horrible thing to insinuate.
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We've seen unambiguously what Hamas's vision for a free Palestine is, the fact that you're calling for it 2 days after 7/10 seems to imply that you are.

Taking you at your word, what geographical area do you think a free Palestine should cover?
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Well I hope you’re not advising Starmer on his current stance if you’re confusing a former Israeli PM (probably the best and most decent that country has ever had) who was murdered by an Israeli fanatic in 1995, with the current leader of Fatah and the West Bank.

Fatah by the way have renounced armed resistance against Israel. A green light to Netanyahu and the extremist settlers to grab more land in the West Bank. Close to 90 dead Palestinians since the 7th October. Entirely separate to what’s happening in Gaza by the way.
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Yes I know all that. It was an error of distraction. Don't push it.
 
Lost Seasider said:
We've seen unambiguously what Hamas's vision for a free Palestine is, the fact that you're calling for it 2 days after 7/10 seems to imply that you are.

Taking you at your word, what geographical area do you think a free Palestine should cover?
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That's a good and very difficult question. I think it had to be both Gaza and the West Bank, free from settlements. It has to be a Palestinian population run by Fatah without the terrorists, with Israel removing the West Bank settlements and the apartheid against Palestinians within Israel.
 
C_C_C_Cider said:
How can hammas be defeated when their HQ is underneath the biggest hospital in Gaza, laden with explosives and other arms. Hammas control that hospital, and doctors and nurses are terrified of them.
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If Hamas wants to fight there, what happens to the hospital is on them.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
The two state solution doesn’t call for the destruction of Israel. And that solution was accepted by the PLO and several Arab countries several decades ago. That was the direction the Middle East was slowly heading in under Rabin. Until he was murdered by an extremist Zionist.

Now ask yourself what’s happened since then and who has been refusing to abide by Accords and treaties. And who has been cosying up to the fanatics and murderers in Hamas so he can sideline the more moderate Palestinian Authority is the West Bank. I’ll answer that for you. His name is Netanyahu.
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It's Hamas who dont want peace and refuse to even discuss the two state solution

It was also Hamas who broke the ceasefire

Hamas rule the Gaza strip and are responsible for the people who live there

Are you forgetting the above 3 facts?
 
Lost Seasider said:
We've seen unambiguously what Hamas's vision for a free Palestine is, the fact that you're calling for it 2 days after 7/10 seems to imply that you are.

Taking you at your word, what geographical area do you think a free Palestine should cover?
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That's twice you've attempted to put words in my mouth. I explained clearly here:
Sven said:
There is nothing extreme about stating the Palestinian state should be free from illegal occupation by the State of Israel.
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You're trying to imply I meant something sinister and it's just not true.
 
Sven said:
That's twice you've attempted to put words in my mouth. I explained clearly here:

You're trying to imply I meant something sinister and it's just not true.
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What geographical area do you think "free Palestine" should occupy?

From the river to the sea? If not, then what?

Also, how do you stop Hamas from using "free Palestine" as a base to launch further attacks on Israel, with the aim of beating their score on 7/10?
 
Lost Seasider said:
What geographical area do you think "free Palestine" should occupy?

From the river to the sea? If not, then what?

Also, how do you stop Hamas from using "free Palestine" as a base to launch further attacks on Israel, with the aim of beating their score on 7/10?
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Why should I spend time answering your questions when all you've done is make assumptions and try and put words in my mouth?

I don't owe you an explanation, you owe me an apology.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
It's Hamas who dont want peace and refuse to even discuss the two state solution

It was also Hamas who broke the ceasefire

Hamas rule the Gaza strip and are responsible for the people who live there

Are you forgetting the above 3 facts?
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Whatever was agreed previously is irrelevant. Hamas unambiguously want the destruction of Israel.

Palestinians in Gaza don't all support Hamas but are caught in the retribution.

It's a complete shit show.
 
Wizaard said:
Whatever was agreed previously is irrelevant. Hamas unambiguously want the destruction of Israel.

Palestinians in Gaza don't all support Hamas but are caught in the retribution.

It's a complete shit show.
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To be honest I dont believe the second sentence is necessarily correct

For example when the poor German girl was getting dragged around Gaza with her leg hanging off there were loads of people celebrating

Are you honestly telling me it was just Hamas celebrating

Maybe and it's a big maybe if that was correct then why dont they do something about it?

Maybe it's time for the poor people of Gaza to start taking some responsibility
 
Sven said:
Why should I spend time answering your questions when all you've done is make assumptions and try and put words in my mouth?
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It's the fact that you refuse to answer the question that leads to the assumptions, and also leads me to think they're correct.


Sven said:
I don't owe you an explanation, you owe me an apology.
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Prove me wrong first, answer the questions, until then you owe the people of Israel an apology.
 
Lost Seasider said:
It's the fact that you refuse to answer the question that leads to the assumptions, and also leads me to think they're correct.



Prove me wrong first, answer the questions, until then you owe the people of Israel an apology.
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Are you joking? I have to disprove your assumption based opinion of me. I have to do this by taking time out of my day to answer a list of questions you provide. That's a very arrogant way of conducting yourself.

Believe what you want, I am comfortable in the fact that you are barking up the wrong tree on this one and I have nothing to prove to anyone 👍
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
To be honest I dont believe the second sentence is necessarily correct

For example when the poor German girl was getting dragged around Gaza with her leg hanging off there were loads of people celebrating

Are you honestly telling me it was just Hamas celebrating

Maybe and it's a big maybe if that was correct then why dont they do something about it?

Maybe it's time for the poor people of Gaza to start taking some responsibility
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Are you honestly saying it was ALL of them?

If there's a bloke at the door with a big gun you tend to do what he tells you rather than enter into a philosophical discussion.
 
Sven said:
Are you joking? I have to disprove your assumption based opinion of me. I have to do this by taking time out of my day to answer a list of questions you provide. That's a very arrogant way of conducting yourself.

Believe what you want, I am comfortable in the fact that you are barking up the wrong tree on this one and I have nothing to prove to anyone 👍
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Fine, but don't complain about "extremists" when you look like one yourself.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Fine, but don't complain about "extremists" when you look like one yourself.
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Sven said:
From google:

a person who holds extreme political or religious views, especially one who advocates illegal, violent, or other extreme action.

There is nothing extreme about stating the Palestinian state should be free from illegal occupation by the State of Israel. Supporting the illegal occupation of another state by an apartheid regime who consistently ignores international law and murders civilians is much closer to the definition.
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👍
 
Sven said:
From google:


There is nothing extreme about stating the Palestinian state should be free from illegal occupation by the State of Israel. Supporting the illegal occupation of another state by an apartheid regime who consistently ignores international law and murders civilians is much closer to the definition.
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Is Palestine a fully recognised state? If not, then how is it being illegally occupied? Has Israel the right to exist?
 
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