A bad day for Parliament

[1966_and_all_that]

Yes, it's all over the news and in the papers but behind every photo of MPs raging at the machine was a grubby little piece of local politics. Sufficiently grubby to sit embarrassingly alongside those former MPs (one still sitting), for whom grubbiness knows no bounds. Again, I turn to the wonderful John Crace in The Guardian to explain the issue succinctly and with clarity:

"What we got was....An SNP opposition day debate designed to highlight splits in the Labour party. A Labour amendment created to prevent a split in its own ranks. One that bridged the gap between the SNP position and the Labour leadership. A Tory amendment whose only function was to knock out Labour’s, as there was hardly a cigarette paper between them, under the parliamentary precedent that government amendments kick out opposition ones on such occasions.

"So there we had it. While more men, women and children were dying in Gaza, all UK parties were using the conflict for marginal, parochial gains. Just lip service to a higher calling. All claiming they cared only for bringing the war to an end. All so detached from reality they couldn’t even see they were lying to themselves. Just indulging in performative politics. Knowing there was no chance an IDF or Hamas commander was listening in. Nothing they said would make a difference. So they could say what they liked."

Add to that a UK defence force not fit for purpose, a childish spat between a Government Minister and the former Chair of the Post Office whilst Sub-post masters & mistresses still wait for adequate compensation over the Horizon scandal and a COVID enquiry dredging up the pathetic behaviour of senior politicians during a major pandemic and....where are we? We might as well have government by AVFTT!

 

[Sooty59]

Yes, it's all over the news and in the papers but behind every photo of MPs raging at the machine was a grubby little piece of local politics. Sufficiently grubby to sit embarrassingly alongside those former MPs (one still sitting), for whom grubbiness knows no bounds. Again, I turn to the wonderful John Crace in The Guardian to explain the issue succinctly and with clarity:

"What we got was....An SNP opposition day debate designed to highlight splits in the Labour party. A Labour amendment created to prevent a split in its own ranks. One that bridged the gap between the SNP position and the Labour leadership. A Tory amendment whose only function was to knock out Labour’s, as there was hardly a cigarette paper between them, under the parliamentary precedent that government amendments kick out opposition ones on such occasions.

"So there we had it. While more men, women and children were dying in Gaza, all UK parties were using the conflict for marginal, parochial gains. Just lip service to a higher calling. All claiming they cared only for bringing the war to an end. All so detached from reality they couldn’t even see they were lying to themselves. Just indulging in performative politics. Knowing there was no chance an IDF or Hamas commander was listening in. Nothing they said would make a difference. So they could say what they liked."

Add to that a UK defence force not fit for purpose, a childish spat between a Government Minister and the former Chair of the Post Office whilst Sub-post masters & mistresses still wait for adequate compensation over the Horizon scandal and a COVID enquiry dredging up the pathetic behaviour of senior politicians during a major pandemic and....where are we? We might as well have government by AVFTT!

First past the post or PR

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

I love and admire Lyndsay Hoyle I really do but he got it wrong yesterday.

He was man enough to apologise afterwards but the damage had already been done.

 

[April13th1970]

While more men, women and children were dying in Gaza

Men, woman & children are dying in Israel too, but I guess mention of that doesn't suit the Guardian's anti-Israel narrative

Frankly the whole thing could be solved quite simply without the involvement of the UK parliament or UN resolutions if Hamas just returned all the remaining Jewish hostages and desisted from launching (probably) Iranian supplied rockets into Israel

But we all know that won't happen as Hamas are not interested in the welfare of their Arab people but rather eradicating the state of Israel and wiping the Jewish "from the river to the sea" irrespective of the inevitable human cost to their people

 

[basilexile]

I love and admire Lyndsay Hoyle I really do but he got it wrong yesterday.

He was man enough to apologise afterwards but the damage had already been done.

I don't really understand why he went against advice. He has always appeared a very fair and decent chap, but as much as it is dressed up there appears to only be political motives behind it.
Is it really any wonder no one trusts politicians of all persuasions?

 

[tommytwojags]

"What we got was....An SNP opposition day debate designed to highlight splits in the Labour party. A Labour amendment created to prevent a split in its own ranks. One that bridged the gap between the SNP position and the Labour leadership. A Tory amendment whose only function was to knock out Labour’s, as there was hardly a cigarette paper between them, under the parliamentary precedent that government amendments kick out opposition ones on such occasions.

"So there we had it. While more men, women and children were dying in Gaza, all UK parties were using the conflict for marginal, parochial gains. Just lip service to a higher calling. All claiming they cared only for bringing the war to an end. All so detached from reality they couldn’t even see they were lying to themselves. Just indulging in performative politics. Knowing there was no chance an IDF or Hamas commander was listening in. Nothing they said would make a difference. So they could say what they liked."

A truly shocking game of politics playing out in Parliament. The SNP had no real concern for the people of Gaza. They merely wanted to discredit the Labour party before the General Election. Labour's amendment was designed to save their own skin. The Tories wanted no part in the debacle. A mess up by Lyndsay Hoyle. Politics at its absolute worst.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

A truly shocking game of politics playing out in Parliament. The SNP had no real concern for the people of Gaza. They merely wanted to discredit the Labour party before the General Election. Labour's amendment was designed to save their own skin. The Tories wanted no part in the debacle. A mess up by Lyndsay Hoyle. Politics at its absolute worst.

You say the Tories wanted no part in it and yet they put forward their own amendment with the sole purpose of screwing up the Labour amendment. In that instance protocol dictates only the government amendment should be dealt either. It was Hoyle’s decision to hear both motions (Labour and Tory) that caused the Tories and SNP to flounce.

So let’s not pretend the Tories wanted no part in the bunfight. They were very active and enthusiastic participants.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Men, woman & children are dying in Israel too, but I guess mention of that doesn't suit the Guardian's anti-Israel narrative

Frankly the whole thing could be solved quite simply without the involvement of the UK parliament or UN resolutions if Hamas just returned all the remaining Jewish hostages and desisted from launching (probably) Iranian supplied rockets into Israel

But we all know that won't happen as Hamas are not interested in the welfare of their Arab people but rather eradicating the state of Israel and wiping the Jewish "from the river to the sea" irrespective of the inevitable human cost to their people

My OP was about the behaviour of the UK Parliament. You may wish to start a thread of your own for your topic.

 

[Archibald Knox]

I love and admire Lyndsay Hoyle I really do but he got it wrong yesterday.

He was man enough to apologise afterwards but the damage had already been done.

Hoyle defied "convention". Possibly unwisely for his own position. But there aren't any rules, just Erskine May to indicate convention.
Erskine May is not a rigid set of rules but a description of how parliamentary procedure evolved and of the conventions.
It continues to evolve and EM is revised periodically; it was first published in 1844 and the last revision was the 25th edition in July 2019.
It might be revised again as a result of Hoyle's intervention; we shall see in a few years' time.

 

[Archibald Knox]

You say the Tories wanted no part in it and yet they put forward their own amendment with the sole purpose of screwing up the Labour amendment. In that instance protocol dictates only the government amendment should be dealt either. It was Hoyle’s decision to hear both motions (Labour and Tory) that caused the Tories and SNP to flounce.

So let’s not pretend the Tories wanted no part in the bunfight. They were very active and enthusiastic participants.

The additional Conservative amendment only went in because there was a Labour one which they wanted to displace, not because the Govt one had any real effect on the motion. The SNP tried to shaft Labour, Labour tried to protect itself and the Tories tried to remove that protection. All using Gaza as a plaything.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

I don't think anyone comes out of this looking good.
Hoyle probably saw the Conservative amendment for what it was (a tactic) and acted accordingly.
He shouldn't have, Starmer has made this mess, he should have faced the consequences.
Hoyle's days are numbered now presumably.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Hoyle defied "convention". There aren't any rules, just Erskine-May to indicate convention.
Erskine-May is not a rigid set of rules but a description of how parliamentary procedure evolved and of the conventions.
It continues to evolve and E-M is revised periodically; it was first published in 1844 and the last revision was the 25th edition in July 2019.

A worthwhile addition to the thread Archie but yesterday's shenanigans showed Erskine-May up as being antiquated. Now, I believe in upholding Parlamentary democracy. We don't have a written constitution in this country and convention plays an important role in moderating Parluamentary procedures. However, we live in frightening times and Hoyle was trying to be flexible for good reasons. Unfortunately, the SNP and the Tories used his 'conventional' indiscretion as a weapon to beat him with.

We need to move on and accept that in today's world of aggressive, on-line social media, our democracy needs more weapons at its disposal to protect our democratic values and our liberties. It also needs MPs to not use Parliamentary procedure as a blunt weapon for political advantage.

 

[20togo]

said it a long time go on the war thread, that it's just everybody wanting their fifteen minutes of fame and people believing they are more important than they really are and that their words will have some sort of effect on what is happening in Gaza. It won't.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

said it a long time go on the war thread, that it's just everybody wanting their fifteen minutes of fame and people believing they are more important than they really are and that their words will have some sort of effect on what is happening in Gaza. It won't.

These people (MPs) are important but they should respect each other. After all, they do call each other Honourable.

 

[Mark_GT]

I don't think anyone comes out of this looking good.
Hoyle probably saw the Conservative amendment for what it was (a tactic) and acted accordingly.
He shouldn't have, Starmer has made this mess, he should have faced the consequences.
Hoyle's days are numbered now presumably.

That is an accurate assessment. The Tories saw an open goal and went for it. Anything to deflect from their own disgracefulness. Starmer should be showing some backbone but is terrified of blowing Labour's opportunity to lead. The ScotNats are just making trouble as they like to do. Hoyle will probably have to fall on his sword. Shambles.

 

[Eternaloptimist]

I love and admire Lyndsay Hoyle I really do but he got it wrong yesterday.

He was man enough to apologise afterwards but the damage had already been done.

Likewise Jaffa, but he has certainly damaged his reputation beyond repair IMO
I also read that he was “forced” to apologise so not good all round. He will resign tomorrow
Some backbenchers were calling for the return of that snidy, bullying, egotistical, poison dwarf and if that happens it shows that the whole lot of them or rotten to the core.
As I’ve said many times the Government needs a complete overhaul by a totally independent body but sadly they are a law unto themselves so anyone who did come in to look at them would be bribed by someone or other.

 

[Matesrates]

I see Paul Maynard is facing a full investigation into claims he spent taxpayers money on his campaign.

If Trump was here, he’d look at all the investigations into Tory MPs and say it’s a witch hunt

 

[hertfordseasider]

Lets be honest all the bluff and bluster in the House of Commons means absolutely fuck all to the people in the Gaza or in Israel, it means nothing.

It is down to the 2 fighting sides and as it stands they both want to fight, they both want to eradicate each other and it is, as is usual, the innocent people, Palestinian and Jewish who suffer for this terrible state of affairs.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

The additional Conservative amendment only went in because there was a Labour one which they wanted to displace, not because the Govt one had any real effect on the motion. The SNP tried to shaft Labour, Labour tried to protect itself and the Tories tried to remove that protection. All using Gaza as a plaything.

Tories this morning were confirming that they had so many rebels, the Tory Amendment would not have carried.

I have to smile at the calls from Tories for the Speaker to resign, considering how much they have abused process for the last 14 years. Remember the illegal prorogation of Parliament to prevent Brexit scrutiny?

 

[Roy Kent]

These people (MPs) are important but they should respect each other. After all, they do call each other Honourable.

The definition of oxymoronic!

 

[Shandypants]

I love and admire Lyndsay Hoyle I really do but he got it wrong yesterday.

He was man enough to apologise afterwards but the damage had already been done.

Do you know him? I grew up on the same street as him, his dad Dougie had more brains. Lindsey is thick as two short planks, that's a fact

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Do you know him? I grew up on the same street as him, his dad Dougie had more brains. Lindsey is thick as two short planks, that's a fact

Said I loved and admired him don’t recall saying how intelligent or as you say how thick he is.

 

[Shandypants]

Said I loved and admired him don’t recall saying how intelligent or as you say how thick he is.

Loving him is a bit strong

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Loving him is a bit strong

Not strong at all I love him for all his charity work and thousands of pounds he’s raised for various charities over the years.

Is that ok?

I could call him a thick cnut from Chorley if it’s any better with you?

 

[poolseasider]

SNP total shit stirring yet those on here have been defending them for ages because of their point scoring against the Tories.
Horrible party and hopefully Labour give them a good kicking at the next GE.

 

[Shandypants]

Not strong at all I love him for all his charity work and thousands of pounds he’s raised for various charities over the years.

Is that ok?

I could call him a thick cnut from Chorley if it’s any better with you?

That would be more accurate. He fucked his 1st wife off and daughter. When she died it was all tears in parliament. Saville did loads for charity

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

That would be more accurate. He fucked his 1st wife off and daughter. When she died it was all tears in parliament. Saville did loads for charity

So you are now comparing Hoyle with Saville?

What a warped mind you must have.

I give up.

 

[TSSeasider]

A worthwhile addition to the thread Archie but yesterday's shenanigans showed Erskine-May up as being antiquated. Now, I believe in upholding Parlamentary democracy. We don't have a written constitution in this country and convention plays an important role in moderating Parluamentary procedures. However, we live in frightening times and Hoyle was trying to be flexible for good reasons. Unfortunately, the SNP and the Tories used his 'conventional' indiscretion as a weapon to beat him with.

We need to move on and accept that in today's world of aggressive, on-line social media, our democracy needs more weapons at its disposal to protect our democratic values and our liberties. It also needs MPs to not use Parliamentary procedure as a blunt weapon for political advantage.

I don't think we live in times which are any more frightening than we've lived through in the past.

I'm 51, I've seen far more civil unrest than we currently have, or own civil war in Ireland is less dangerous than it was, the USSR is a lot less of an issue than it was when I was growing up notwithstanding Russia continues is being run but a madman, the Chinese Communist Party are going to have enough issues of their own keeping the peace inside its existing borders now the economy is shrinking and climate change is the new hole in the ozone/acid rain.

We are going through the 30 year cycle of needing a bit of a global ruckus before it all settles down to relative harmony in the next couple of years, when everyone recognises it's not worth the hassle which will take us to 2050 - when it will start all over.

We've used our traditions and conventions to steer this nation through much worse periods, I honestly don't think it needs to change - but that's not to say we don't need to consider how we create better governance, the current crop of politicians aren't great.

 

[Shandypants]

So you are now comparing Hoyle with Saville?

What a warped mind you must have.

I give up.

I'd put money on it that I know him a damn site better than you do. Next door neighbour for 15 years..... I wasn't comparing him to Saville, I was pointing out that praising people for charity work isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I don't think we live in times which are any more frightening than we've lived through in the past.

I'm 51, I've seen far more civil unrest than we currently have, or own civil war in Ireland is less dangerous than it was, the USSR is a lot less of an issue than it was when I was growing up notwithstanding Russia continues is being run but a madman, the Chinese Communist Party are going to have enough issues of their own keeping the peace inside its existing borders now the economy is shrinking and climate change is the new hole in the ozone/acid rain.

We are going through the 30 year cycle of needing a bit of a global ruckus before it all settles down to relative harmony in the next couple of years, when everyone recognises it's not worth the hassle which will take us to 2050 - when it will start all over.

We've used our traditions and conventions to steer this nation through much worse periods, I honestly don't think it needs to change - but that's not to say we don't need to consider how we create better governance, the current crop of politicians aren't great.

So what is your prediction for when America is run by a madman once more?

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

I'd put money on it that I know him a damn site better than you do. Next door neighbour for 15 years..... I wasn't comparing him to Saville, I was pointing out that praising people for charity work isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Have I said said I know him more than you do? No I haven’t so feckin chill out I’ve never even mentioned anything at all about knowing him so read what I’ve actually posted.

You’ve obviously got a massive chip on your shoulder with Hoyle that’s fine but it’s pointless debating it any further so I’m out.

I’d get that anger management course booked though it’ll do you good.

 

[Shandypants]

Have I said said I know him more than you do? No I haven’t so feckin chill out I’ve never even mentioned anything at all about knowing him so read what I’ve actually posted.

You’ve obviously got a massive chip on your shoulder with Hoyle that’s fine but it’s pointless debating it any further so I’m out.

I’d get that anger management course booked though it’ll do you good.

So despite not knowing him you've declared your love . I'm spitting facts about the bloke, that's not a chip on my shoulder.