A work in progress or fundamentally flawed?

S

straightatthewall

Well-known member
I could write loads, but can't be arsed as it's been said before.

We can all see some obvious areas of improvement, but by the same token, we have 2/3's of the season to play and we're clearly in the battle for play off places. It's the inconsistency - both in games and over the season so far - that is the issue. We've seen some good stuff that could suggest we could easily get between 25-30 points over the next 16 games, but we've seen some shite that suggests 10-20 points would also be realistic.

It boils down to a simple question for me; will the current system and approach get better as the season progresses or is it fundamentally flawed and will never get the best out of the squad?
 
A system can't really be 'fundamentally flawed' can it?

I'm also not sure whether 'getting the best out of the squad' at least not in the immediate term is the right way of looking at this (we discussed the same thing at some length yesterday).

The whole 'square pegs in square holes' philosophy is in my opinion fundamentally flawed (or at least it's flawed in a certain context). I think it's fine to match a system to the players you have if you have a short term objective (stopping the rot to avoid relegation for example), but from a long term perspective I think it needs to work the other way around....

So you need to have a clear idea about the system you want to play and then over time you need to progressively coach the players to fit or bring new ones in if that doesn't work. Of course, that can result in the kind of hit and miss form that we are experiencing right now, but over the longer term it will ensure a much stronger platform on which to build.

Last time around under Critch has showed us where compromising on the system ultimately gets you...

What we should have done last time is hone our system and get it right in L1 and, if need be, sacrificed the immediacy of the promotion chase as a result. We should have focused on getting the system right first and then aimed to achieved promotion playing the way we wanted to play. Instead we compromised, then we were forced to compromise again and ultimately we'd have continued to compromise and never actually realised our ambition, because at Championship Level (for us at least) the stakes become too high to persevere with a system at the cost of results.

The moment we brought in Appleton and attempted to stop 'compromising' we were back to square one again and plummeted backwards. Because at Championship level a change of system or transition is essentially done at the risk of relegation, whereas addressing the system at L1 level for us is done at the risk of perhaps finishing Mid Table.

So to my mind.... We need to persevere ... There are certainly signs that we can work well, we've shown earlier in the season that we can be resilient and we've shown since that we can open sides up and create plenty of chances and score goals.... We need to find the balance, probably make a few changes to personnel, accept that a few players need time to develop and in the long term I think it will have been well worth it.
 
Compromising on the system ast time round got us promoted, and kept us up comfortably on a meagre budget at that level.

A change of manager and system back to the original 433 got us relegated.

So we have dumped 433 in favour of 352. Will Critch get his one to work? It's not going very well so far.

I think we are lacking old heads. The been there and done its. bit of a cliche, but our better times as a club have generally coincided with us having some experiential wisdom in the camp, on and off the pitch.

Get Norburn back in tandem with Kenny, get Dembele on from the start, and find an experienced centre back captain type and a grizzled old Scot to counter balance Critch at SG and on the bench with a bit of battle hardened pragmatism.
 
I'd say it can be flawed if it continually asks players to do things that they're always going to struggle with OR it consistently produces less than the sum of its parts rather than more. And for the record, I'm not saying that this IS the case at the moment, but I don't think anyone would also say that the system is working 'properly'.

I could easily flip your argument on its head and say working to a specific style and tactic could be a short-term measure to get results, whereas allowing your squad to do what comes naturally to them is the best longer-term approach. It's got to be if it's the approach that gets you the most success. Hasn't it?

Agree with your points around having a plan and sticking to it. Which is the crux of my original post. Despite the bed-wetting antics of some, our points tally and position in the table clearly shows that we've been relatively successful so far this season. We're in the play off mix and barring disaster, we'll still be there or thereabouts at the turn of the year. Worth noting that by December 5 2020 - after 15 games played, we were 12th in the table with an average of 1.46 per game. After 16 games of this season we're 8th, with 1.5 points per game. So is it REALLY bad?
 
That's not the system being flawed though, it's the system not being ideal for the particular squad. So it's only flawed to the extent that the particular plyers can't make it work as it should.

If the approach is constantly be to build your system around the squad, how do you ever establish any degree of consistency throughout the club?

How do you create this so called 'Blackpool DNA' that is supposed to be consistent through the Youth and Development squads... ?

If your objective is to have a particular style of play, then at some point you have to make the decision to do something other than just 'float with the punches'.

I don't think it is really bad and I think its a case of Critchley being a victim of circumstance to a large degree. Of course some of that is down to him leaving (get over it ffs), but a lot of it has to do with the frustration of relegation, a shit season last year and our fans being seriously impatient and obviously desperate to just get back up there.

I'm absolutely certain that if you changed the name Dobbie for Critchley and all the circumstances were exactly the same this season, that the very same fans who are throwing the Toys out of the Pram would be fully behind him and talking about a positive end to the season. All of the slating of the manager for trying out different players would be excused as 'trying to bring on and develop players' and last nights result would have been a fantastic comeback after a conceding a couple of silly goals and a worldy at the end that nobody could do anything about etc... A couple of games ago the crowd were singing "Up the Football League We Go" .... I think that tells its own story TBH!!

Look, it's been up and down recently and it's been a bit of a frustrating time..., but on the whole I think there's plenty to be positive about.... I'm heartened by the courage and resilience we've shown to come back in recent games and we can take heart from that.... We're starting to see player's like Carey and CJ emerge from last season's fog... Dembele has turned out to be an absolute Gem... Rhodes is a goal machine and Lavery seems to be back to his best...
 
We had a terrible start in 2020, and we improved after a few things happened - we brought Calderwood in, we changed from 433 to 442, we signed Dougall and others on the mid October covid delayed deadline. Do we need some of that stuff now?

Just because we improved in that season, it doesn't automatically follow the same will happen again, or to the same extent, especially as there were triggers back then. So do we need to change system? Bring in another coach? Sign a player for a key position? We won't bring in an experienced coach as that would signal to the world that Critch is a coach, not a manager. It would compromise him. A system change would maybe help but I'm more inclined to think we need a more experienced/composed player in the middle of the back 3 than Casey or Ektoplasm. Bit of leadership. We've had solid defence at the start of the season, and some good attacking play recently, at times. We just need composure and leadership, maybe.
 
It's our away win rate that has me a bit worried. We have only won 1, albeit against Barnsley. On the flip side we have only lost 2 away from home. They say win your home games and draw your away games (Drawn 4) to go up and in parts we are doing that but doesn't feel like it. We have the 3rd best home record in the league but the 16th best away record and there lies in the problem. Had we picked up a couple more wins away then we could say the start has been great. Charlton and Fleetwood come to mind.
 
voyeur said:
We had a terrible start in 2020, and we improved after a few things happened - we brought Calderwood in, we changed from 433 to 442, we signed Dougall and others on the mid October covid delayed deadline. Do we need some of that stuff now?

Just because we improved in that season, it doesn't automatically follow the same will happen again, or to the same extent, especially as there were triggers back then. So do we need to change system? Bring in another coach? Sign a player for a key position? We won't bring in an experienced coach as that would signal to the world that Critch is a coach, not a manager. It would compromise him. A system change would maybe help but I'm more inclined to think we need a more experienced/composed player in the middle of the back 3 than Casey or Ektoplasm. Bit of leadership. We've had solid defence at the start of the season, and some good attacking play recently, at times. We just need composure and leadership, maybe.
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Regarding the CB, it seems to me like we need a player with Casey's comfort on the ball and Marvin's physical attributes. Which tells me we ain't getting said player because they'd be too good for League 1.
 
Hopefully it will turn out to be a work in progress. But I can't see what he's setting out to try and achieve. 'Passing for passing sake' as Jamie Hoyland on Radio Lancs comms said in the first half last night.

And coming back here as a 3-5-2 man would have been OK with a pair of recognised wing backs/attacking full backs to give the shape balance and meaning. Owen Dale has never played LWB in his career before and it shows.
 
straightatthewall said:
Regarding the CB, it seems to me like we need a player with Casey's comfort on the ball and Marvin's physical attributes. Which tells me we ain't getting said player because they'd be too good for League 1.
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That's an obvious conclusion to come to. But you never know. Wve had people before. Jackson, Evatt. Clarke. Quite a few others in fact.

poolfc said:
Hopefully it will turn out to be a work in progress. But I can't see what he's setting out to try and achieve. 'Passing for passing sake' as Jamie Hoyland on Radio Lancs comms said in the first half last night.

And coming back here as a 3-5-2 man would have been OK with a pair of recognised wing backs/attacking full backs to give the shape balance and meaning. Owen Dale has never played LWB in his career before and it shows.
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We play with more urgency at times, get the ball forward quicker. I was a bit freaked when we hit transfer deadline without signing any wing backs and said so at the time. You choose a system heavily reliant on them and don't sign any - and proceed with Connolly, CJ and Dale. Strange planning that.
 
voyeur said:
We play with more urgency at times, get the ball forward quicker. I was a bit freaked when we hit transfer deadline without signing any wing backs and said so at the time. You choose a system heavily reliant on them and don't sign any - and proceed with Connolly, CJ and Dale. Strange planning that.
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And I think that's the biggest point of concern for many and the basis of the 'fundamentally flawed' camp (if there is one...) It's OK to have a system in mind, but it's pointless if you a) don't have suitable players to effectively pull it off or b) by sticking rigidly too it, you negate the strengths of players that would otherwise be dangerous and effective players.

From what I've seen to date, I agree with poolfc's comment of 'I can't see what he's setting out to try and achieve.' Maybe it's my lack of games watched, but it's hard to identify our style or what our 'Plan A' approach to creating and scoring goals is.
 
straightatthewall said:
And I think that's the biggest point of concern for many and the basis of the 'fundamentally flawed' camp (if there is one...) It's OK to have a system in mind, but it's pointless if you a) don't have suitable players to effectively pull it off or b) by sticking rigidly too it, you negate the strengths of players that would otherwise be dangerous and effective players.

From what I've seen to date, I agree with poolfc's comment of 'I can't see what he's setting out to try and achieve.' Maybe it's my lack of games watched, but it's hard to identify our style or what our 'Plan A' approach to creating and scoring goals is.
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Well yesterday I put the case that our wing backs are not wing backs and need defenders behind them. We have an uncertainty arising from that. And gaps appear cos Hubby and Penno have to cover behind them and we get stretched. We do have some wing backs though - Thommo, Lyons and Gabriel. None featuring much, for various reasons. For me, if you choose CJ and Dale, you play full backs behind them. Call me old fashioned.
 
poolfc said:
Hopefully it will turn out to be a work in progress. But I can't see what he's setting out to try and achieve. 'Passing for passing sake' as Jamie Hoyland on Radio Lancs comms said in the first half last night.

And coming back here as a 3-5-2 man would have been OK with a pair of recognised wing backs/attacking full backs to give the shape balance and meaning. Owen Dale has never played LWB in his career before and it shows.
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Although, to be fair, Hoyland's game was all about knocking it long and big defensive headers. Two passes for him is one too many.
 
Any system works if you have players who can play that system, particularly in their natural positions. Critchley doesn’t do that for some unfathomable reason. Bringing on the likes of Dembele both last night and on Saturday, showed it can work, but his cautious nature stops him playing them from the start.
 
Wizaard said:
Although, to be fair, Hoyland's game was all about knocking it long and big defensive headers. Two passes for him is one too many.
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Agree with this. Hoyland is likely to wonder what a load of passing is all about. what I would dsay though is that wv want to play a possssion game but we choose players who give the ball away too much. Like CJ. When someone like Apter is much more likely to help us retain possssion, with his excellent technique. Or Lyons. NC is scared to play Dembele but ok with CJ losing possession repeatedly. Dembele is less of a risk, IMO.
 
As I keep saying, it all depends on your ultimate objective. If you view ‘Jam Today’ as the over-arching requirement, then you can talk about the system bein flawed (but that will always be the case, because you never give yourself the opportunity to do anything other than focus on the short term).

I think the point about the CB made by Voy is a valid one. I think Eki showed us once again exactly why he was dropped in the first instance… And as sad as it is, he’s not going to work in a 3 or a 4 where we’re building from the back…

Casey probably has the potential to improve with experience , but I think his lack of pace is a problem.

Come January we need to be looking to fill that position… I don’t agree that it’s simply a case of nobody at L1 lever having the attributes… In any case our sights ought to be set on promotion… So if need be a solid loan of an older head.
 
Regarding the C/B position, Husband is amassing bookings so we need a left sided C/B in January along with a quality midfielder
and a good winger who knows how to operate down the flanks.
 
FLATBACKFOR said:
Regarding the C/B position, Husband is amassing bookings so we need a left sided C/B in January along with a quality midfielder
and a good winger who knows how to operate down the flanks.
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Why buy a winger that knows how to operate down the flanks? He would only be asked to play on his wrong foot and asked to learn to defend.
 
some-one made the valid point that Husband has probably played more games for us as a left[wing] back than he has as a centre half. We all know Connelly can play as a centre half. So if he wants to bring CC on why not switch Husband to left[wing[ back and on his natural foot and put CC in the middle?

Thought it a perfectly valid point.
 
20togo said:
some-one made the valid point that Husband has probably played more games for us as a left[wing] back than he has as a centre half. We all know Connelly can play as a centre half. So if he wants to bring CC on why not switch Husband to left[wing[ back and on his natural foot and put CC in the middle?

Thought it a perfectly valid point.
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I'm watching the game back and done the first half. Our general play was ok, I reckon, not slow, not passing for the sake of it, in my opinion, but....

- the back three are exposed and pulled about a lot.
- CJ and Dale poor defensively
- CJ and Dale no quality delivery. Wasteful
- Cods get balls in easily and we don't pick up the runners
- Carey and TOB doing little defensive work and playing high so Dougall and Marv are under pressure
- Marriott Omechere and Mayor combine well and good technique. Use the spaces well.

If we're going to play this system we need Hubby at LWB I think and probably Lyons at RWB. Then the CBs can stay tighter and mark better. Apter also would be better than CJ, for me, more control and accuracy.
If TOB is playing high then Dembele would be loads better.
- Kouassi great against Barrow reserves, Liverpool U21s and a young Reading side, but struggling against L1 men's teams. Good for his age.

We weren't cautious enough last night, did Critch think a back three plus Dougall was sufficient defensive cover? Did he expect CJ, Dale and TOB to defend better? If he did, what made him think they would? Wishful thinking?

Change the wing backs, Dembele in for TOB, Lavery for Kouassi. Seems obvious to me. 😀
 
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voyeur said:
I'm watching the game back and done ghe first half. Our general play wass ok, I reckon, not slow, not passing for the sake of it, in my opinion, but....

- the back three are exposed and pull about a lot.
- CJ and Dale poor defensively
- CJ and Dale no quality delivery. Wasteful
- Cod's get balls in easily and we don't pick up the runners
- Carey and TOB doing little defensive work and playing high so Dougall and Marv are under pressure
- Marriott Omechere and Mayor combine well and good technique

If we're going to play this system we need Hubby at LWB and probably Lyons at RWB. Then the CBs can stay tighter and mark better. Apter would be better than CJ, for me, more control and accuracy.
If TOB is playing high then Dembele would be loads better.
- Kouassi great against Barrow reserves, Liverpool U21s and a young Reading side, but struggling against L1 men's teams.

We weren't cautious enough last night, did Critch think a back three plus Dougall was sufficient defensive cover? Did he expect CJ, Dale and TOB to defend better? If he did, what made him think they would? Wishful thinking?
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I haven’t rewatched the entire game like you Voy, but I have watched the back end of the game again to look at the subs in the closing stages, which I’ve already commented about. So to that extent, I can only draw upon what I saw in real time.

Having read a lot of the comments on here though last night and today and in particular accusations of cowardice and ‘defensively minded’ etc… and I’m simply scratching my head and wondering if I’m going barmy.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I haven’t rewatched the entire game like you Voy, but I have watched the back end of the game again to look at the subs in the closing stages, which I’ve already commented about. So to that extent, I can only draw upon what I saw in real time.

Having read a lot of the comments on here though last night and today and in particular accusations of cowardice and ‘defensively minded’ etc… and I’m simply scratching my head and wondering if I’m going barmy.
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Yes I agree. Thought we played well second half. I feel pretty positive after watching it through, because we played some very good football and Dembele is a cut above.

And we actually lost because of an almost complete abdication of cautiousness. We just went gung ho from the start and left the back door wide open. We get stuck in narratives at times. Our problem is mostly around the wing backs I think. There's not enough attacking quality from them, and very little defensive contribution, and so the three defenders gave to work the full width of the pitch. Which teams are exploiting.

We can fix this. Or he can. More than one solution. Fleetwood couldn't live with us second half. But the back door was left unlocked
 
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Three points from me. Firstly, NC has not started our best available starting lineup. Our last two matches should have started Dembele, Lavery and probably Connolly or (to support Dougall). Secondly, we have not got sufficient quality to play wing backs currently. Thirdly, we would be better if all our squad were available, including Norburn, Virtue, Joseph, Lyons and Gabriel. I hope some of these and the likes of Beesley are given a run at Bromley.
 
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