An outbreak of facts and misinformation (long post)

catinstalbans

Well-known member
Well, half term is nearly over-lessons to prepare later and I said I would respond to some false accusations made by a certain poster. So here goes.

First a summary. I learnt only one bit of new information by watching the documentary which I was told would prove beyond doubt China's guilt and responsibility for every single death the world has suffered, how they covered it up for months and conned the WHO. None of which turned out to be true. Indeed there was no contradiction at all of the WHO timeline which I have already posted twice but which for unknown reasons is not accepted by conspiracy theorists and right wing defenders of the inadequate and negligent response to the virus by both the UK Conservative government and Trump's administration in the US.

So here are my objective notes made in chronological order as the programme proceeded. Comments are made in brackets.

The first comment in the preamble is a quote from Boris Johnson that "the country will get through coronavirus in good shape" (I know the willingness of some to accept no blame on their blonde idol but even the most starstruck supporter must acknowledge that with 120,000 deaths this statement has turned out to be just as false as Boris' many deliberate lies.)

Then we go to the timeline of the epidemic. The first indication of an issue are social media posts on December 31 coming from doctors in Wuhan about a SARS like infection. (This matches exactly the WHO timeline, but does not mention that the response to the WHO came from the local health commission in Wuhan. Of course the illness probably started to appear a few days earlier -we now know that it can take 7-10 day from infection and a further 7-10 days for symptoms to worsen to a point where medical support is required)
The questions immediately raised were 1) to what degree was it causing severe disease and 2) how transmissible was the infection? From a historical context the original SARS outbreak 20 years earlier had led to criticism of China by the WHO for its lack of information given to international agencies at this time. (It was a concern that the pattern should not be repeated)
A cluster of cases were linked to a Wuhan wet market and this was closed by authorities in early January. There was a meeting of hospital staff at the beginning of January where staff were told not to pass information about the infection on social media. (This seems to me to be the essence of claims of a cover up but let's be realistic-should social media be the vector for reporting medical information or recognised channels and procedures on infections through the medical agencies. Also is it any different to our own NHS trusts warning staff not to discuss the situation on PPE equipment which occured later in the UK. At any length this was quickly rescinded as National authorities took over control.
Yi Chun Lo - a spokesperson for the Taiwan CDC was trying to make contact with Wuhan to arrange a visit by Taiwanese disease control to Wuhan to assess the situation for themselves. He described the initial management of the outbreak as shambolic. On the 5 January the Chinese statement via the WHO was that there was no evidence of human to human transmission but that it could not be ruled out. The visit occured in mid January and in a meeting between the Taiwanese delegation on the 20 January human to human transmission was "reluctantly" admitted. According to the programme this was the cover up.
( It probably was true that the response to the initial infection was chaotic, after all it was a completely new virus, pictures from a hospital in Wuhan was very similar to pictures from Italy during their crisis in February and also to film of patients clustered on trollies from previous winters in the austerity starved NHS in Britain.)
(I have to point out that the WHO stated that human to human transmission was possible on 14 January-one week earlier than the programme stated and would seem to negate the Taiwanese claims of a cover up towards them)
23 January- China locks down Wuhan and the neighbouring province. (I will return to this later in response to comments by Desman Pilley made later in the programme.)
30 January-first case in the UK
UK scientists develop a test for Covid 19 based on the genetic sequence openly published by China on 12 January ( Note less than two weeks after the initial reports of a new infection.)
The virus spread initially with a few cases in South East Asia but then took hold in Italy. Quarantine was introduced in Northern Italy on 23 February ( the week after half term in the UK and thousands returning from skiing holidays in the region.
One Italian town Vo managed to control the infection by extensive testing of the population following the first Covid death in Italy followed by quarantining of positive cases. Based on this extensive testing Andrea Crisanti a microbiologist reported evidence of asymptomatic transmission of Covid 19. The British government was informed but did not respond (they certainly ignored the advice)
On the 3 March the UK was confident that they could test their way through coronavirus. On the 12 March the UK abandoned attempts to track positive cases. 25,000 patients were discharged into care homes without testing.
23 March-the UK was the last major European nation to lockdown.
2 April guidance stated that there was no requirement to test for Covid before care homes admitted patients. ( Of all the negligent and complacent responses to Covid in the UK this to me stands out as one of the most culpable)
In care homes relatives described no PPE being used and mixing between isolation and non isolation staff.

In China the 76 day lockdown in Wuhan.
A couple of comments from leading scientists are worth noting here
Paul Nurse stated that China was ruthless in containing Covid 19 and as a result does not question the published number of deaths.It also meant that they were (In other comments not made in the programme he has stated that with modern travel pandemics are bound to spread around the world remarkably quickly and that preventing such spread is next to impossible. I have no doubt however that 20s will believe that he is right and that the Nobel prize winning geneticist does not know what he is talking about. He also described trying to advise the government as poking blancmange.)
Now I'm going to own up to a mistake in my note taking here. I am not sure if the next quote came from Paul Nurse or Deenan Pilley but as both are eminently more qualified to comment than myself I will still include it.
China was ruthless in enforcing testing, tracing and quarantine. As a result, fewer people died and they were also able to open up their economy more readily.
Deenan Pilley stated that China published the genetic sequence to the world within two weeks of the virus being identified. This collaboration allowed diagnostic testing and vaccine development to occur so rapidly across the world. This should be applauded. (This statement is so obvious that even the most devout China hater would agree-surely!)
Boris Johnson "we will have a world beating test, track and trace in place by June 1." (Remind me again, at what point did our privatised system actually prove effective in preventing a rise in infections? Certainly not by November or December. As lock down brings down infection rates then Serco has a third chance to get it right as the country opens up again from March. Let's hope that this time it works.)
As infection rates fell following the first lockdown the government introduced its eat out to help out the virus scheme and without a working test,track and trace system sent everybody back to work (threatening job losses), back to schools and universities. This allowed the virus to spread through the young and working population and then a couple of weeks later the virus takes hold in older patients causing the devastating second wave. It is all so predictable.(and damning)

So and this is definitely my opinion and comment to 20s. The programme did not prove that China covered up for months. The programme actually confirmed the WHO timeline that you have dismissed on two occasions now. At most the delay was a couple of weeks. Now this can be criticised but as a scientist with a biochemistry degree, two weeks to confirm genetic sequencing, transmission between humans does not seem unreasonable. You could make a valid argument that the precautionary principle should have made the decisive action China took occur sooner, but to quote the often used defence of Conservatives on here, it was about balancing the risk with the potential damage to the economy. Once the risk was clear the response was determined and effective. I doubt that any other nation on the planet would have responded differently. Indeed the response of most countries in the world was slower than China, even once the effects of the virus were becoming widely known.
Praise should go to those countries that did act swiftly to contain the virus, New Zealand, Vietnam and Taiwan being the best examples.
 

Threepeaksphil

Well-known member
An interesting article by Catinstalbans! The problem is we just don't know what happened in China as it seems the local people who raised questions at the start were told to shut up and that poor doctor who tried to alert the world to Covid "died" of Covid? Watch the award winning film on Chernobyl to see how closed regimes control information. Questions are being raised about the recent WHO fact finding team? We will have to see if Biden follows up their doubts. Is it true that the only research institute for covid type infections in the whole of China is in Wuhan, rather an interesting coincidence if true.
 

Chunkylad

Well-known member
We by nature are always desperate to blame someone for poor outcomes. It would be much neater for our minds, if we could say it was a failed lab experiment or a biological attack by China, but as Cat alludes, there doesn’t seem to be enough evidence of this yet.

It will be a continued conspiracy theory going forward - certainly some of the time lines are contentious and anecdotal evidence (not verified) that the virus was in Europe long before the dates stated by Cat in his summary.
You have to go with what we know at this stage and this is what Cat lays out. It might be factually correct and China are blameless (looks most likely) or it might be that future evidence puts them back in the firing line with questions to answer
 

TANGERINETOWERPOWER

Well-known member
On a different topic Cat...How about school teachers and schools giving up the school holidays to allow children to catch up...maybe have a 1 week break instead of 7 weeks...just a thought?
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
On a different topic Cat...How about school teachers and schools giving up the school holidays to allow children to catch up...maybe have a 1 week break instead of 7 weeks...just a thought?
I've answered this before. No. The students need a break as much as the teachers.
Both have been working throughout the pandemic.
If a shorter holiday say 4 weeks was followed by the opportunity to offer a restructured school year for the future then it could have merits but as a retaliatory sanction against perceived "lazy" teachers then your suggestion has no value.
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
Sorry Cats you don't have to be a right wing conspiracy theorist to disbelieve your account. Some of it may be true. Some of it isn't.
It's not my account- it was the ITV programme. I made clear where objective detail ended and my opinion (brackets) was stated. Perhaps you could point out which parts of the account were not as in the documentary.

And for a third time I will include this timeline.


Again there was no evidence presented that this is incorrect.
 

southshorepool

Well-known member
On a different topic Cat...How about school teachers and schools giving up the school holidays to allow children to catch up...maybe have a 1 week break instead of 7 weeks...just a thought?
You are aware that we are working? Are you going to give up all your holidays to boost productivity?
 

TANGERINETOWERPOWER

Well-known member
You are aware that we are working? Are you going to give up all your holidays to boost productivity?
I genuinely didnt know if it is a viable option...I thought it may be a way to counteract the lost time...nobody will be going on proper holidays this year and 6 or 7 weeks seems excessive given they have been off for so long in the meantime. Incidentally I think it is disgusting that teachers havent been prioritised for the vaccine. I wasnt looking to offend you it was a genuine question.
 

southshorepool

Well-known member
I genuinely didnt know if it is a viable option...I thought it may be a way to counteract the lost time...nobody will be going on proper holidays this year and 6 or 7 weeks seems excessive given they have been off for so long in the meantime. Incidentally I think it is disgusting that teachers havent been prioritised for the vaccine. I wasnt looking to offend you it was a genuine question.
My fight or flight response. Smiles.
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
I genuinely didnt know if it is a viable option...I thought it may be a way to counteract the lost time...nobody will be going on proper holidays this year and 6 or 7 weeks seems excessive given they have been off for so long in the meantime. Incidentally I think it is disgusting that teachers havent been prioritised for the vaccine. I wasnt looking to offend you it was a genuine question.
I accept that except we haven't been off. Live lessons delivered remotely take far longer to plan, and without the feedback and buzz from students face to face are often more draining than normal lessons. My students tell me that remote lessons are more tiring and stressful than being in school. Again I think that is because in the classroom they can gauge the responses from others in the class and this allows them to feel more confident in where they are in terms of their understanding compared to other students. In front of a screen, on their own at home, they don't get that feedback and so worry over every point they struggle with and fear that they are the only one not getting it.
 

Wizaard

Well-known member
I genuinely didnt know if it is a viable option...I thought it may be a way to counteract the lost time...nobody will be going on proper holidays this year and 6 or 7 weeks seems excessive given they have been off for so long in the meantime. Incidentally I think it is disgusting that teachers havent been prioritised for the vaccine. I wasnt looking to offend you it was a genuine question.
Even when my daughter hasn't been physically in the building she's still been in lessons via zoom all day every day. I can only presume other schools are the same.

She has to register at 9.00 then is in discussions with the teacher and the other students all day.
 

Tangerinenick

Well-known member
It's not my account- it was the ITV programme. I made clear where objective detail ended and my opinion (brackets) was stated. Perhaps you could point out which parts of the account were not as in the documentary.

And for a third time I will include this timeline.


Again there was no evidence presented that this is incorrect.
I think the documentary is flawed/bollox/incorrect.
I do not accept a great deal of the WHO account of how, when, what, where.
You can believe your 'objective' evidence.
👍
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
I think the documentary is flawed/bollox/incorrect.
I do not accept a great deal of the WHO account of how, when, what, where.
You can believe your 'objective' evidence.
👍
So what do you believe and more importantly- what evidence do you have to support it?
Or is it just another right wing conspiracy theory like Trump with his "stolen election" which disappears when scrutiny is applied.
By the way- the original post is a response to another poster who claimed that the documentary was irrefutable prove that China was to blame for every Covid death!
 

Tangerinenick

Well-known member
So what do you believe and more importantly- what evidence do you have to support it?
Or is it just another right wing conspiracy theory like Trump with his "stolen election" which disappears when scrutiny is applied.
By the way- the original post is a response to another poster who claimed that the documentary was irrefutable prove that China was to blame for every Covid death!
Honestly I have debated this to death. Believe what you want to believe.
Peace n love.
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
Is this the right place to share this: The Mail on Sunday.

Peter Mandelson assured the Chinese PM that critics of Beijing's human-rights record would be 'proved wrong' during a lobbying meeting on behalf of rich clients.

The Labour peer, who has been advising party leader Sir Keir Starmer on how to boost his poll ratings, told the meeting of business leaders and Chinese officials that Premier Li Keqiang 'would not be hearing complaints from the European side today' – despite mounting international criticism of China's authoritarian rule and alleged cover-up of the origins of the coronavirus pandemic.


Cat is Peter Madelson and I claim my £5.

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
Is this the right place to share this: The Mail on Sunday.

Peter Mandelson assured the Chinese PM that critics of Beijing's human-rights record would be 'proved wrong' during a lobbying meeting on behalf of rich clients.

The Labour peer, who has been advising party leader Sir Keir Starmer on how to boost his poll ratings, told the meeting of business leaders and Chinese officials that Premier Li Keqiang 'would not be hearing complaints from the European side today' – despite mounting international criticism of China's authoritarian rule and alleged cover-up of the origins of the coronavirus pandemic.


Cat is Peter Madelson and I claim my £5.

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
You are usually the one demanding concrete evidence. Seems all you have is irrelevant gossip to put against the WHO factual record.
 

northstand

Well-known member
This thread has probably shown me a different side to you cat. We may be at opposite sides of the political spectrum but I do agree in you viewpoint on this
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
From your post on the WHO last April.

"
Not the band but the world Heath Organization.

Forget Trump's rants and deflection - focus on the WHO.

Its stated aim is,...'To act as a directing and coordinating authority on international health work, to ensure valid and productive technical cooperation, and to promote research.'

Serious questions have to be asked about this organization. Not the rank and file people who work for it but its leadership.
Questions to be addressed are :
Why did it agree with a dictatorship over when it would announce that the Covid 19 virus was a pandemic when it knew that the virus was a person to person transmittable virus weeks before? Indeed they refused to acknowledge it was a pandemic for many weeks after -
Speaking at a press briefing in Geneva, Switzerland - 24th Feb - Tedros Ghebreyesus Director General said the spread of the covid 19 virus around the world is not yet at pandemic stage. This was stated despite the virus being identified as being in over 100 countries and that it was a person to person transmittable virus that kills. At this point many people all over the world had died.
Definition of pandemic (of a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world.
synonyms: widespread · prevalent · pervasive · rife · rampant · epidemic · universal · global
Why has the WHO never questioned how the Chinese authorities 'dealt' with doctors who identified and announced the presence of a deadly virus weeks before Chinese authorities announced it?
Why haven't the WHO not criticized, condemned, the way China did not lockdown the virus - allowing many, many, flights out of Wuhan & other parts of China which subsequently spread the virus both before and after China went into lockdown?
Why does the WHO (supposed to be independent) refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty of Taiwan - Republic of China (ROC), as it is in fact one of the five Permanent Members listed in the Charter of the UN. Admittedly many counties don't but the UN is supposed to be above political/state allegiances. Is this down as I suspect it is with many counties to a fear of upsetting China?

There is something very dodgy about the WHO."

Not one bit of evidence provided.

From the Boris admitted to hospital thread also last April.

”So a bat from a dirty market - bit someone (or they ate it) with a side salad of amino acids to alter the sequence of the covid DNA) caused all this.........nah sorry I have a family member who is a research chemist and he told me 100% that this is a man made virus."

Again no evidence and contrary to the opinion of every expect on viral diseases and epidemiology that has been quoted on the subject.
 

20togo

Well-known member
Unfortunately the programme This World is no longer available to watch. But the evidence of China's cover up was pretty damning.

Here's another article explaining Chinas cover up.

Cat has no sense of objectivity whatsoever. He tries to play down the point about staff being told to not say anything. Again, I've never stated that the lockdown in Wuhan wasn't anything but extremely effective but that's the nature of the Chinese govt and the control they have over their people. It's a case of shut up or you might disappear. Cat loves to talk about the official timeline when it's pretty clear the cover up had already been attempted but the worlds eyes could see what was really happening.
 

Tangerinenick

Well-known member
From your post on the WHO last April.

"
Not the band but the world Heath Organization.

Forget Trump's rants and deflection - focus on the WHO.

Its stated aim is,...'To act as a directing and coordinating authority on international health work, to ensure valid and productive technical cooperation, and to promote research.'

Serious questions have to be asked about this organization. Not the rank and file people who work for it but its leadership.
Questions to be addressed are :
Why did it agree with a dictatorship over when it would announce that the Covid 19 virus was a pandemic when it knew that the virus was a person to person transmittable virus weeks before? Indeed they refused to acknowledge it was a pandemic for many weeks after -
Speaking at a press briefing in Geneva, Switzerland - 24th Feb - Tedros Ghebreyesus Director General said the spread of the covid 19 virus around the world is not yet at pandemic stage. This was stated despite the virus being identified as being in over 100 countries and that it was a person to person transmittable virus that kills. At this point many people all over the world had died.
Definition of pandemic (of a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world.
synonyms: widespread · prevalent · pervasive · rife · rampant · epidemic · universal · global
Why has the WHO never questioned how the Chinese authorities 'dealt' with doctors who identified and announced the presence of a deadly virus weeks before Chinese authorities announced it?
Why haven't the WHO not criticized, condemned, the way China did not lockdown the virus - allowing many, many, flights out of Wuhan & other parts of China which subsequently spread the virus both before and after China went into lockdown?
Why does the WHO (supposed to be independent) refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty of Taiwan - Republic of China (ROC), as it is in fact one of the five Permanent Members listed in the Charter of the UN. Admittedly many counties don't but the UN is supposed to be above political/state allegiances. Is this down as I suspect it is with many counties to a fear of upsetting China?

There is something very dodgy about the WHO."

Not one bit of evidence provided.

From the Boris admitted to hospital thread also last April.

”So a bat from a dirty market - bit someone (or they ate it) with a side salad of amino acids to alter the sequence of the covid DNA) caused all this.........nah sorry I have a family member who is a research chemist and he told me 100% that this is a man made virus."

Again no evidence and contrary to the opinion of every expect on viral diseases and epidemiology that has been quoted on the subject.


Honestly I cannot be arsed.
Read the WHO statement 24th Feb - Tedros Ghebreyesus WHO website. Decide for yourself if that's totally transparent and accurate.
Check Flight Radar its an App - flights before lockdown in China Dec - Jan 2020 - 17,000+(that aint a lockdown bro) Chinese New Year. All there to see.

There are many experts on virology etc that argue that SARS is man made. In 2003 Nikolai Filatov, head of Moscow's epidemiological services believed SARS was man made.
The virus, according to Academy of Medicine member Sergei Kolesnikov, is a cocktail of mumps and measles, whose mix could never appear in nature.
"We can only get that in a laboratory," he told a conference in the Siberian city of Irkutsk, quoted by RIA Novosti news agency.
Of course you can show me one back.



Or you can give me the 100% correct undisputable natural host (since you say it is not man made) for SARS-CoV-2? That will be easy. Get on Google. Good luck. No its not bats/pangolins in the Wuhan wet market.

Let me save you some time going down them rabbit holes - there isn't one.


Go read about accelerated viral evolution. Very interesting.
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
If anyone is interested in finding out more about the post above then just search Covid 19 conspiracy theories.
Do not try and find evidence in any reputable science publication as you would be wasting your time.
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
Unfortunately the programme This World is no longer available to watch. But the evidence of China's cover up was pretty damning.

Here's another article explaining Chinas cover up.

Cat has no sense of objectivity whatsoever. He tries to play down the point about staff being told to not say anything. Again, I've never stated that the lockdown in Wuhan wasn't anything but extremely effective but that's the nature of the Chinese govt and the control they have over their people. It's a case of shut up or you might disappear. Cat loves to talk about the official timeline when it's pretty clear the cover up had already been attempted but the worlds eyes could see what was really happening.
Can you provide a single piece of evidence for your statement that they covered up for months. The article you put up is just the accompanying piece to publicise the TV programme. It says nothing new that was not covered in my analysis of the documentary.
You know your argument is weak and without foundation.
 

rockontommy

Well-known member
I thought it was clearly established fact that China impeded investigations, silenced whistleblowers and made people disappear?? It is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. All pretty non-controvertial observations I would say.
 

Matesrates

Well-known member
Well, half term is nearly over-lessons to prepare later and I said I would respond to some false accusations made by a certain poster. So here goes.

First a summary. I learnt only one bit of new information by watching the documentary which I was told would prove beyond doubt China's guilt and responsibility for every single death the world has suffered, how they covered it up for months and conned the WHO. None of which turned out to be true. Indeed there was no contradiction at all of the WHO timeline which I have already posted twice but which for unknown reasons is not accepted by conspiracy theorists and right wing defenders of the inadequate and negligent response to the virus by both the UK Conservative government and Trump's administration in the US.

So here are my objective notes made in chronological order as the programme proceeded. Comments are made in brackets.

The first comment in the preamble is a quote from Boris Johnson that "the country will get through coronavirus in good shape" (I know the willingness of some to accept no blame on their blonde idol but even the most starstruck supporter must acknowledge that with 120,000 deaths this statement has turned out to be just as false as Boris' many deliberate lies.)

Then we go to the timeline of the epidemic. The first indication of an issue are social media posts on December 31 coming from doctors in Wuhan about a SARS like infection. (This matches exactly the WHO timeline, but does not mention that the response to the WHO came from the local health commission in Wuhan. Of course the illness probably started to appear a few days earlier -we now know that it can take 7-10 day from infection and a further 7-10 days for symptoms to worsen to a point where medical support is required)
The questions immediately raised were 1) to what degree was it causing severe disease and 2) how transmissible was the infection? From a historical context the original SARS outbreak 20 years earlier had led to criticism of China by the WHO for its lack of information given to international agencies at this time. (It was a concern that the pattern should not be repeated)
A cluster of cases were linked to a Wuhan wet market and this was closed by authorities in early January. There was a meeting of hospital staff at the beginning of January where staff were told not to pass information about the infection on social media. (This seems to me to be the essence of claims of a cover up but let's be realistic-should social media be the vector for reporting medical information or recognised channels and procedures on infections through the medical agencies. Also is it any different to our own NHS trusts warning staff not to discuss the situation on PPE equipment which occured later in the UK. At any length this was quickly rescinded as National authorities took over control.
Yi Chun Lo - a spokesperson for the Taiwan CDC was trying to make contact with Wuhan to arrange a visit by Taiwanese disease control to Wuhan to assess the situation for themselves. He described the initial management of the outbreak as shambolic. On the 5 January the Chinese statement via the WHO was that there was no evidence of human to human transmission but that it could not be ruled out. The visit occured in mid January and in a meeting between the Taiwanese delegation on the 20 January human to human transmission was "reluctantly" admitted. According to the programme this was the cover up.
( It probably was true that the response to the initial infection was chaotic, after all it was a completely new virus, pictures from a hospital in Wuhan was very similar to pictures from Italy during their crisis in February and also to film of patients clustered on trollies from previous winters in the austerity starved NHS in Britain.)
(I have to point out that the WHO stated that human to human transmission was possible on 14 January-one week earlier than the programme stated and would seem to negate the Taiwanese claims of a cover up towards them)
23 January- China locks down Wuhan and the neighbouring province. (I will return to this later in response to comments by Desman Pilley made later in the programme.)
30 January-first case in the UK
UK scientists develop a test for Covid 19 based on the genetic sequence openly published by China on 12 January ( Note less than two weeks after the initial reports of a new infection.)
The virus spread initially with a few cases in South East Asia but then took hold in Italy. Quarantine was introduced in Northern Italy on 23 February ( the week after half term in the UK and thousands returning from skiing holidays in the region.
One Italian town Vo managed to control the infection by extensive testing of the population following the first Covid death in Italy followed by quarantining of positive cases. Based on this extensive testing Andrea Crisanti a microbiologist reported evidence of asymptomatic transmission of Covid 19. The British government was informed but did not respond (they certainly ignored the advice)
On the 3 March the UK was confident that they could test their way through coronavirus. On the 12 March the UK abandoned attempts to track positive cases. 25,000 patients were discharged into care homes without testing.
23 March-the UK was the last major European nation to lockdown.
2 April guidance stated that there was no requirement to test for Covid before care homes admitted patients. ( Of all the negligent and complacent responses to Covid in the UK this to me stands out as one of the most culpable)
In care homes relatives described no PPE being used and mixing between isolation and non isolation staff.

In China the 76 day lockdown in Wuhan.
A couple of comments from leading scientists are worth noting here
Paul Nurse stated that China was ruthless in containing Covid 19 and as a result does not question the published number of deaths.It also meant that they were (In other comments not made in the programme he has stated that with modern travel pandemics are bound to spread around the world remarkably quickly and that preventing such spread is next to impossible. I have no doubt however that 20s will believe that he is right and that the Nobel prize winning geneticist does not know what he is talking about. He also described trying to advise the government as poking blancmange.)
Now I'm going to own up to a mistake in my note taking here. I am not sure if the next quote came from Paul Nurse or Deenan Pilley but as both are eminently more qualified to comment than myself I will still include it.
China was ruthless in enforcing testing, tracing and quarantine. As a result, fewer people died and they were also able to open up their economy more readily.
Deenan Pilley stated that China published the genetic sequence to the world within two weeks of the virus being identified. This collaboration allowed diagnostic testing and vaccine development to occur so rapidly across the world. This should be applauded. (This statement is so obvious that even the most devout China hater would agree-surely!)
Boris Johnson "we will have a world beating test, track and trace in place by June 1." (Remind me again, at what point did our privatised system actually prove effective in preventing a rise in infections? Certainly not by November or December. As lock down brings down infection rates then Serco has a third chance to get it right as the country opens up again from March. Let's hope that this time it works.)
As infection rates fell following the first lockdown the government introduced its eat out to help out the virus scheme and without a working test,track and trace system sent everybody back to work (threatening job losses), back to schools and universities. This allowed the virus to spread through the young and working population and then a couple of weeks later the virus takes hold in older patients causing the devastating second wave. It is all so predictable.(and damning)

So and this is definitely my opinion and comment to 20s. The programme did not prove that China covered up for months. The programme actually confirmed the WHO timeline that you have dismissed on two occasions now. At most the delay was a couple of weeks. Now this can be criticised but as a scientist with a biochemistry degree, two weeks to confirm genetic sequencing, transmission between humans does not seem unreasonable. You could make a valid argument that the precautionary principle should have made the decisive action China took occur sooner, but to quote the often used defence of Conservatives on here, it was about balancing the risk with the potential damage to the economy. Once the risk was clear the response was determined and effective. I doubt that any other nation on the planet would have responded differently. Indeed the response of most countries in the world was slower than China, even once the effects of the virus were becoming widely known.
Praise should go to those countries that did act swiftly to contain the virus, New Zealand, Vietnam and Taiwan being the best examples.
Suggest you write short summaries with punchlines rather than long, boring posts. I haven’t read a word of it, as soon as I saw how long it was, that was it for me.
 

rockontommy

Well-known member
Xi’s World Pt.3 | Xi’s Infectious Model The Very Opinionated Kate Wand Show.


If you were a western leader would you admit being scammed by Chinese propaganda?
 

Tangerinenick

Well-known member
If anyone is interested in finding out more about the post above then just search Covid 19 conspiracy theories.
Do not try and find evidence in any reputable science publication as you would be wasting your time.

So you are basically in a patronising manner saying that any belief that opposes your own is a conspiracy theory?

The whole question of whether SARS-CoV-2 is man made or natural has not been conclusively proven.Until it has I suggest you have more of an open mind.

I asked you to look critically at the statement by Tedros Ghebreyesus (Director general WHO) 24th Feb. You said conspiracy theory.

Ok.
 

20togo

Well-known member
Can you provide a single piece of evidence for your statement that they covered up for months. The article you put up is just the accompanying piece to publicise the TV programme. It says nothing new that was not covered in my analysis of the documentary.
You know your argument is weak and without foundation.
Did I actually say covered up for months? They certainly covered up going back into last year. The last link I provided told you about the cover up, lies and deceit. You are in denial Cat just like the Chinese are.
You come on this board with no interest in anything else other than stirring up political hatred with your extremist beliefs. You don't post for discussion, you just post hate filled rants. Tell me why you would use the emblem of the communist party as an avatar if you didn't have their beliefs?

All that is not weak at all. All with foundation.
 

Wizaard

Well-known member
Did I actually say covered up for months? They certainly covered up going back into last year. The last link I provided told you about the cover up, lies and deceit. You are in denial Cat just like the Chinese are.
You come on this board with no interest in anything else other than stirring up political hatred with your extremist beliefs. You don't post for discussion, you just post hate filled rants. Tell me why you would use the emblem of the communist party as an avatar if you didn't have their beliefs?

All that is not weak at all. All with foundation.
This avatar stuff is pretty weak to be fair. Are you Simon or Garfunkel? Am I Harry Johnson or Stanley Matthews?
 

20togo

Well-known member
This avatar stuff is pretty weak to be fair. Are you Simon or Garfunkel? Am I Harry Johnson or Stanley Matthews?

Ooh, I'm gonna enjoy this one Wiz. It's not weak at all and you know it. Simon and Garfunkel are idols of mine. I love them and their music. Just like people have avatars of Blackpool players and emblems of BFC. Is that not reasonable for them to do so. Bet you won't call out anyone who does that because why not have an avatar of something that means something to you.

So go on then, explain away Cats communist logo.
 

Wizaard

Well-known member
Ooh, I'm gonna enjoy this one Wiz. It's not weak at all and you know it. Simon and Garfunkel are idols of mine. I love them and their music. Just like people have avatars of Blackpool players and emblems of BFC. Is that not reasonable for them to do so. Bet you won't call out anyone who does that because why not have an avatar of something that means something to you.

So go on then, explain away Cats communist logo.
When was it? I haven't seen it.
 
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