Anyone else slowly starting to despise the prem?

20togo

Well-known member
"Tbh, I think there is some truth to the idea that the Premier League isn't simply for football fans. It's at least partly about creating stable and predictable brands so sponsors and the sort of corporations who invest in exec boxes can invest with a degree of confidence and those clubs remain consistently attractive on a global stage."

Trust me, I was up in the sponsors lounge at BFC for three seasons and there's plenty of people in there just for the day out/piss up and not really fussed on what was going on the other side of the windows and curtains. I'd say most Championship clubs also have flouring sponsorship deals with their executive boxes and lounges. It's not just the EPL. But again, that's moving away from the gist of my first point. The man in the street season ticket holder at these big clubs is every bit as devoted and knowledgeable about their team as the likes of you and me. Yet Robbie dismisses them in his usual sneering manner.
Football is developing as a global brand. And sure you see the financial imbalance as a problem. But the whole game is developing. It's not just the flat cap man that goes to games now. It's as much a family and community thing.
 

20togo

Well-known member
Once again you fail to appreciate the points that are being made to you. Expressing dissatisfaction with the EPL does not equate to being "happy" to be a L1 team. It's merely an observation that the EPL is a League that badly needs some improvements ; a League where the fan who attends matches in person is ripped off, messed about and generally treated like a second class citizen compared with the "fan" who sits at home and consumes the product from his sofa.

In fact, the EPL seems to be run entirely for the convenience of the people on the sofa. And many of those people don't understand the match experience as most of us know it. They wouldn't dream of travelling 50/100/500 miles for every home game ; they probably feel a bit faint when they are sitting out of sight of the fridge. It feels like the tail wags the dog ; indeed, if there is one good thing that has come out of COVID it is that people now have a better appreciation of how empty an experience watching football is without a crowd to give the game atmosphere and a sense of occasion. Hence my point about people who don't "get" football.

Have you ever stopped to consider whether it is YOU who is out of step with everyone else? After all, you are the bloke who supports Blackpool but has a second team in the EPL. Most people I know who follow football closely don't do that, and would baulk at the very idea of it.
Jeez, you get worse. Man U are well known for their season ticket holder fans travelling from all parts of the country including Scotland and Ireland to their HOME games. Blood will confirm that. You're inverted snobbery is shining thru. If you think that there aren't as many if not a load more fans of PL clubs who make all the sacrifices you do. And why do most PL clubs sell out their away allocation as well. Did most teams sell out their allocation when they came to BR in the PL? Of course they did. Why? Because they are prepared to travel the 50/100/500 miles to see their team play live. Why do they do that if they could watch the game on tv at nowhere near the cost of actually going to the game.
You really do come up with some utter nonsense.
 

basilrobbie

Well-known member
Jeez, you get worse. Man U are well known for their season ticket holder fans travelling from all parts of the country including Scotland and Ireland to their HOME games. Blood will confirm that. You're inverted snobbery is shining thru. If you think that there aren't as many if not a load more fans of PL clubs who make all the sacrifices you do. And why do most PL clubs sell out their away allocation as well. Did most teams sell out their allocation when they came to BR in the PL? Of course they did. Why? Because they are prepared to travel the 50/100/500 miles to see their team play live. Why do they do that if they could watch the game on tv at nowhere near the cost of actually going to the game.
You really do come up with some utter nonsense.

I said "many" of those people, not all of them. And I never mentioned myself directly, because I know my match day experience is a long way from typical. You are the one who is trying to make it personal to me.

I noticed that you ignored the points I made about the way the EPL markets itself. Presumably because you know you can't argue with them. And as for the kind of people you mentioned coming across in corporate - well, you kind of make my point. They are there to be seen, rather than because they have any intrinsic interest in the sport. And any business model that prioritises people who have such a transient interest in the sport is likely to be far less sustainable than one that prioritises people who invest emotional as well as financial capital in following a club. In my opinion.
 

20togo

Well-known member
I said "many" of those people, not all of them. And I never mentioned myself directly, because I know my match day experience is a long way from typical. You are the one who is trying to make it personal to me.

I noticed that you ignored the points I made about the way the EPL markets itself. Presumably because you know you can't argue with them. And as for the kind of people you mentioned coming across in corporate - well, you kind of make my point. They are there to be seen, rather than because they have any intrinsic interest in the sport. And any business model that prioritises people who have such a transient interest in the sport is likely to be far less sustainable than one that prioritises people who invest emotional as well as financial capital in following a club. In my opinion.
Nope, I don't want to argue with them either. Some of your points are perfectly valid. I've never claimed everything is perfect and beyond reproach.
 

Archibald Knox

Well-known member
I’ve watched quite a lot of South American football and there’s a gulf in entertainment. They are skilful, attack minded, run their hearts out, tackle hard, get up without moaning, the ref often waves play on, nowhere near as much cheating / feigning injury / time wasting. Basically like we used to see in the U.K. before the 90’s.
And yet they produce players like Neymar?
 

20togo

Well-known member
I can't really say, as I don't think I've watched a single PL game this season.

But the EPL as a whole has been absurdly over-hyped for a long time. It's football for people who don't really "get" football, and probably never will.

I said "many" of those people, not all of them. And I never mentioned myself directly, because I know my match day experience is a long way from typical. You are the one who is trying to make it personal to me.

I noticed that you ignored the points I made about the way the EPL markets itself. Presumably because you know you can't argue with them. And as for the kind of people you mentioned coming across in corporate - well, you kind of make my point. They are there to be seen, rather than because they have any intrinsic interest in the sport. And any business model that prioritises people who have such a transient interest in the sport is likely to be far less sustainable than one that prioritises people who invest emotional as well as financial capital in following a club. In my opinion.
Well your first post shown above didn't say "many" did it?
 

td53

Well-known member
"Tbh, I think there is some truth to the idea that the Premier League isn't simply for football fans. It's at least partly about creating stable and predictable brands so sponsors and the sort of corporations who invest in exec boxes can invest with a degree of confidence and those clubs remain consistently attractive on a global stage."

Trust me, I was up in the sponsors lounge at BFC for three seasons and there's plenty of people in there just for the day out/piss up and not really fussed on what was going on the other side of the windows and curtains. I'd say most Championship clubs also have flouring sponsorship deals with their executive boxes and lounges. It's not just the EPL. But again, that's moving away from the gist of my first point. The man in the street season ticket holder at these big clubs is every bit as devoted and knowledgeable about their team as the likes of you and me. Yet Robbie dismisses them in his usual sneering manner.
Football is developing as a global brand. And sure you see the financial imbalance as a problem. But the whole game is developing. It's not just the flat cap man that goes to games now. It's as much a family and community thing.
Why are you still answering me by talking about Robbie?

I'm not on about anything other than the financial doping that takes place as I've been perfectly explicit about.

I also disagree that the premier league is somehow more family friendly than say Morecambe or Accrington or ourselves are so I'm not sure what that's got to do with it.

In actual fact, the premier league has an aging fan base and less kids now go than did in the past largely because of the way tickets are mostly sold in season ticket form etc.

I think I'm right in saying the average age of a match going top flight fan is the oldest it's ever been. I haven't got a link for that, but I'm relatively confident that it's not completely wrong.

Locking the national sport behind a paywall is a really odd way of making it more inclusive if you ask me which seems to be what you're implying the premier league has done.
 

Toastrack

Well-known member
The hype around the Prem is totally OTT, to the extent that lots of media outlets now hardly mention football outside the top flight - I tire of radio commentators who barely let a minute pass without using the phrase “Premier League”.

Also, too many foreign players are only interested in joining clubs close to London (remember when Sunderland were considering basing their first team squad down south and only travelling up to the north east for matches?)
Consequently, clubs beyond the capital find it more difficult to attract quality players and progress to (or stay in) the Prem, causing ‘Londonification’ of the top flight and underrepresentation of the regions.
 

20togo

Well-known member
Why are you still answering me by talking about Robbie?

I'm not on about anything other than the financial doping that takes place as I've been perfectly explicit about.

I also disagree that the premier league is somehow more family friendly than say Morecambe or Accrington or ourselves are so I'm not sure what that's got to do with it.

In actual fact, the premier league has an aging fan base and less kids now go than did in the past largely because of the way tickets are mostly sold in season ticket form etc.

I think I'm right in saying the average age of a match going top flight fan is the oldest it's ever been. I haven't got a link for that, but I'm relatively confident that it's not completely wrong.

Locking the national sport behind a paywall is a really odd way of making it more inclusive if you ask me which seems to be what you're implying the premier league has done.
I'm getting lost in all this. Sometimes there is a need to reference what some-one else has said in order to make a point in reply to some-one else. And without going back I'm pretty sure I haven't said the EPL is more friendly than any other division. I'm sure I was only making the point about how the game with an audience has evolved over the last 100 years or so.
 

Hazi

Well-known member
I think football without fans is absolutely nothing unless it’s your own club your watching.
 

Wizaard

Well-known member
The hype around the Prem is totally OTT, to the extent that lots of media outlets now hardly mention football outside the top flight - I tire of radio commentators who barely let a minute pass without using the phrase “Premier League”.

Also, too many foreign players are only interested in joining clubs close to London (remember when Sunderland were considering basing their first team squad down south and only travelling up to the north east for matches?)
Consequently, clubs beyond the capital find it more difficult to attract quality players and progress to (or stay in) the Prem, causing ‘Londonification’ of the top flight and underrepresentation of the regions.
Apart from cosmopolitan Manchester of course.
 

tangerine_neil

Well-known member
The exception that proves the rule?
Nah. He’s embarrassing. Representative of what’s wrong with the game. A massive talent and a massive cheat.

Seen plenty of the Brazil, Colombia, Mexico, Panama, Venezuela, Chile, Uruguay, etc matches these last few years and they all put the Prem to shame. It’s like they are playing a different game.
 

td53

Well-known member
I'm getting lost in all this. Sometimes there is a need to reference what some-one else has said in order to make a point in reply to some-one else. And without going back I'm pretty sure I haven't said the EPL is more friendly than any other division. I'm sure I was only making the point about how the game with an audience has evolved over the last 100 years or so.
Yes it has. But actually, there were sizable groups of women at at least some of the early professional games in 1888 (this is fact) and as I've said, the main way in which the EPL crowds have evolved is to get older. They're slightly more diverse in terms of ethnicity and gender but definitely older and definitely higher earning.... In fact, you could argue based on some studies (I've checked my facts now) that far from it becoming a game more welcoming of the young, it's actually become the opposite. I think it was 1968 when a study showed the average age of the Stretford End was 17. I think it's now about 49. Chuck in ticket price inflation and it's not hard to see why. It's also true that crowds are drawn from much wider areas. The norwegians and irish descending on Liverpool for example. All that has an impact on supply and demand and access to the cubs that bear the names of the places they belong to.

Now, to return to the point - why are those people flocking to Liverpool (or United/Chelsea/Arsenal etc) - it's because those clubs are almost bullet proof successful brands with global appeal. Same reason why kids where Real Madrid tops. They wouldn't be wearing Real Madrid tops if Madrid got relegated. English kids don't wear Getafe tops or Deportivo ones.

That brand value is the way the Premier League is arranged the way it is. And as such, I think the point Robbie is possibly making is - the 'Premier League' as an entity - (not 'the top flight') is organised not for 'football fans' (i.e. the person who follows the team through thick and thin, takes rough with the smooth) but for the interests of maintaining the larger clubs global appeal to a fanbase who cannot even conceptualise that Man Utd could ever even possibly play in the 2nd division. The sort of supporter for whom the only reason they follow their club is a kind of weird reflected glory. For whom their club is essentially a status symbol. The global audience who wants to see the big names on TV and maybe never even thinks of setting foot in the country, let alone the ground.

Now, I think there's some truth in that. Not, I might add, that I think that what Liverpool or Man Utd fans are like by default. It's not. I know United fans who don't really care if they win stuff, just want to see the kids brought through, I cited a City fan above I work with who has sacked off his season ticket after 30 yrs cos it's boring, flat and sterile, I know a couple of Liverpool fans who are involved in the Spirit of Shankly stuff and are very vocal about the same shit I bang on about and don't want their club to be some kind of next level super corporation. But they're not the fans the Premier League is organised for cos they *actually go to games* and their input and concerns are nothing compared to the global TV market share.

There's probably truth in the fact that some lower league fans follow their clubs as a kind of badge of stoicism and a symbol of some kind of perverse commitment as well but actually, as I'm sure you do, I enjoy it when we win. I'm just stuck with our club. I think the point Robbie *might* be trying to make is that lower league football is not organised in the same way because those fans (the global TV audience, the big corporation who wine and dine clients with tunnel club tickets etc) don't exist and thus, it retains more of the link between actual supporters who physically support their team and the team itself.

I think you sometimes characterise questioning the 'Premier League' as some kind of willful rejection of the idea of the top flight. I've said this before very plainly and I'll say it again. I don't seek some kind of communist football (and lets be honest, the communist's record was one of producing some spectacular monopolies on success for one or two clubs!) Manchester United will always be bigger than Rochdale. All I want is for the clubs which are ALREADY big to have a tiny bit more precarity on the pitch and the clubs which are small to have a bit more hope of actually achieving *something* without going bankrupt or having to sell themselves to Monsanto or something.

For me, that would be good for everyone. It would make the game more exciting. You'd still, as you always have, have honours mostly shared by larger city clubs but other clubs would get a look in from time to time. It would be particularly good for the casual viewer who has little or no allegiance.

We've done this about a million times before - you'll say - yeah, but what about Europe and it is the way it is and we'll go on all night and I'll be right and you'll be right and we'll never agree!
 

20togo

Well-known member
Im not gonna copy all of your post as it fills up a lot of space but make no mistake about it, it's not the advent of the EPL that means fans flock to certain teams. It goes back way beyond then. As a kid at school in the sixties it was full of Liverpool and Man U fans. Even though you may not like it that'ss the way it is. Nothing has changed in that respect.
And as you brought up Robbies name, I'll reference it again. If he wants to distinguish between the different types of fan attracted to the top clubs then he should have done so. The fact is he didn't. And imo he belittled the hardcore fan -see my reply to his at post 110. And also reference my point about the hardcore fan who does the away trips too.
 

20togo

Well-known member
One more point. Apart from BFC, I'd say the PL and the PL games get a far greater discussion on AVFTT than anything the Championship, including the Nobbers, or L1 or L2 clubs have to offer. Why do you think that is? Because as it has always been the case, generally people have far more interest in what's happening at the top than at the bottom. And that will never change.
 

td53

Well-known member
Im not gonna copy all of your post as it fills up a lot of space but make no mistake about it, it's not the advent of the EPL that means fans flock to certain teams. It goes back way beyond then. As a kid at school in the sixties it was full of Liverpool and Man U fans. Even though you may not like it that'ss the way it is. Nothing has changed in that respect.
And as you brought up Robbies name, I'll reference it again. If he wants to distinguish between the different types of fan attracted to the top clubs then he should have done so. The fact is he didn't. And imo he belittled the hardcore fan -see my reply to his at post 110. And also reference my point about the hardcore fan who does the away trips too.

No shit 20s. I literally said "big clubs are big"

The point is, that size is now being leveraged to create a dominance far beyond that era. The way the EPL was and is set up and financially regulated and prize money distributed is explicitly designed to do that.

The hype is only a small part of it. United have had over a billion quid from just being a premier league club. A billion quid. Not revenue. Just money they've been handed. In the same period, Leeds have had a fraction of that.

United and Leeds used to be broadly similar size clubs. It's mentalism. We're paying the already big clubs to be big clubs which maintains them as big clubs so they stay big clubs.

And if, like Leeds you gamble and fail, you're fucked for 20ish years.

It's a shit system. The double used to be an achievement. Now it's just 'oh, someone won the double again'

It's devalued success and it's boring.

You disagree.
 

20togo

Well-known member
No shit 20s. I literally said "big clubs are big"

The point is, that size is now being leveraged to create a dominance far beyond that era. The way the EPL was and is set up and financially regulated and prize money distributed is explicitly designed to do that.

The hype is only a small part of it. United have had over a billion quid from just being a premier league club. A billion quid. Not revenue. Just money they've been handed. In the same period, Leeds have had a fraction of that.

United and Leeds used to be broadly similar size clubs. It's mentalism. We're paying the already big clubs to be big clubs which maintains them as big clubs so they stay big clubs.

And if, like Leeds you gamble and fail, you're fucked for 20ish years.

It's a shit system. The double used to be an achievement. Now it's just 'oh, someone won the double again'

It's devalued success and it's boring.

You disagree.
You're obsessed with the money in the game, I'm obsessed with the game itself. Ican't do anything about the money in the game so I'm not gonna get uptight about it.

So yep, we disagree.
 
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20togo

Well-known member
I said "many" of those people, not all of them. And I never mentioned myself directly, because I know my match day experience is a long way from typical. You are the one who is trying to make it personal to me.

I noticed that you ignored the points I made about the way the EPL markets itself. Presumably because you know you can't argue with them. And as for the kind of people you mentioned coming across in corporate - well, you kind of make my point. They are there to be seen, rather than because they have any intrinsic interest in the sport. And any business model that prioritises people who have such a transient interest in the sport is likely to be far less sustainable than one that prioritises people who invest emotional as well as financial capital in following a club. In my opinion.
Robbie, I need to make one other point. As much as I disagree with a lot of the points you make and as I have said I believe you have this inverted snobbery attitude to the EPL and it's fans, you DO have my utmost respect for your commitment and dedication to watching BFC play and the lengths and breadth of the country that you travel each weekend following the team. There are very few as dedicated as you are. So once again, respect.
 

td53

Well-known member
You're obsessed with the money in the game, I'm obsessed with the game itself. Ican't do anything about the money in the game so I'm not gonna get uptight about it.

So yep, we disagree.

I'm not obsessed. I just don't like as it spoils the game as a contest and yeah, you can do something. You just don't want to.
 

Davepick

Well-known member
Personally I watch lots of Prem matches, one has to see the best football and the best footballers.
OK, I agree about the diving, gamesmanship etc being a pain in the RS but if you don't see it how do you know about it??
Apart from the mass of foreign players, what about the foreign owners?
Why are they here? Probably because we invented the 'beautiful game' and they want to be a part of it.
I agree about them flooding the Prem with money. Some people will spend anything to be winners and get noticed world wide.
One thing to remember, EVERY manager, owner, player and supporter wants to be in the Prem.
Are some on here saying that they wouldn't watch BFC if they were in the Prem?
 

Mark_GT

Well-known member
Idly listening to Arsenal vs leicester reminded me of this thread. A couple of right cheaty teams and no mistake. From the commentary the match seems to consist of Pepe getting within a foot of the opposition players then throwing himself to the deck. Now he's scored.

Absolute turn off of course. It's a good job we never go down cheaply 🤔🤣
 

Shiggy

Well-known member
Idly listening to Arsenal vs leicester reminded me of this thread. A couple of right cheaty teams and no mistake. From the commentary the match seems to consist of Pepe getting within a foot of the opposition players then throwing himself to the deck. Now he's scored.

Absolute turn off of course. It's a good job we never go down cheaply 🤔🤣
😂😂 Yates would never
 

Davepick

Well-known member
If you're really injured, as that guy undoubtedly was 🙄 , you don't roll about and aggravate the injury.
The Ref should have booked him for 'feigning an injury'.
 

Kyle Seasider

Well-known member
There's a distinct lack of real passion in the prem most years, but this season has highlighted that within the players.
Obviously it's not going to be the same, but I'm still seeing player's showing passion in the EFL. I watched Wycombe v Norwich, it wasn't a great game but you could see the fight in the players.
Most prem games are like training matches this season and I think that shows in the results. Man U vs Chelsea today was awful, they just looked like they didn't want to be there.
 

20togo

Well-known member
There's a distinct lack of real passion in the prem most years, but this season has highlighted that within the players.
Obviously it's not going to be the same, but I'm still seeing player's showing passion in the EFL. I watched Wycombe v Norwich, it wasn't a great game but you could see the fight in the players.
Most prem games are like training matches this season and I think that shows in the results. Man U vs Chelsea today was awful, they just looked like they didn't want to be there.
It's oh so easy to highlight one bad game isn't it? I watched the Spurs v Burnley and Leicester vArsenal matches and both were great games. Total lack of objectivity.
 

Wizaard

Well-known member
It's oh so easy to highlight one bad game isn't it? I watched the Spurs v Burnley and Leicester vArsenal matches and both were great games. Total lack of objectivity.
When you say total lack of objectivity I presume you're talking about you watching the Spurs game 😉

Oh, and Palace v Fulham was a training match too. That's 50% 😂
 

Kyle Seasider

Well-known member
It's oh so easy to highlight one bad game isn't it? I watched the Spurs v Burnley and Leicester vArsenal matches and both were great games. Total lack of objectivity.
There's been alot of games like that this season.
Didn't see Leicester vs Arsenal so can't comment on that, but the Spurs vs Burnley game only one team showed up.
Palace vs Fulham, West Brom vs Brighton (even with the 2 penalty misses), Leeds vs Villa, Newcastle vs Wolves, were all pretty poor games this weekend.
I can't remember when I personally watched a prem game and though 'wow what a game'. That's just my opinion.
 

20togo

Well-known member
There's been alot of games like that this season.
Didn't see Leicester vs Arsenal so can't comment on that, but the Spurs vs Burnley game only one team showed up.
Palace vs Fulham, West Brom vs Brighton (even with the 2 penalty misses), Leeds vs Villa, Newcastle vs Wolves, were all pretty poor games this weekend.
I can't remember when I personally watched a prem game and though 'wow what a game'. That's just my opinion.
Only one team turned up because Spurs played really well and a Spurs side playing really well will beat a Burnley side comfortably.And it's easy to not recall gsmes like Villa scoring seven against Liverpool and saying yeah I didn't see it so I can't say if it was a good game or not. And I'd bet if you pretty much watched any L2, L1 and even Championship fixture you'd be equally if not moreso unimpressed. That's the nature of the beast for so many football fans watching teams they have no association or affiliation to. That's not a criticism it's just stating the reality of it.s
 

Hertsseasider

Well-known member
Of course I care very much about Spurs, I was born within sight of the ground and first went in 1968. I'll watch them on TV whenever I can.
However, its not about glory and the so called big teams, it's about finding a team, a town and a bunch of fans you want to follow and be with. Not blowing my own trumpet but I fell in love with BFC in 1983. I was at Bury, Torquay, all the Play off Finals (except Exeter), have see Pool in all 4 divisions, in Latvia and on around 90 odd grounds ( even Barnet). I guess the point I'm making is that you don't have to from Blackpool to love and support BFC.
 

SEASIDE2020

Well-known member
Personally, I can't be @rsed watching that many games live on the box.

I might watch the big games and am less likely to watch the others.

No doubt this will mean that I will miss a few bore draws and a few classics but why is there such an obsession on here with running the Premier League down at every opportunity ?

Are we judging the quality of the Premier League based on the distribution of the revenues generated ?

There are good and bad games in all divisions in all countries and surely the standard of players in the Premier League compares favourably with most other leagues ?

I find myself wondering if the Mighty were to get a bigger slice of the Premier League, would we perhaps see folk referring more to the classic 4-3 games than the boring 0-0's ?
 

SEASIDE2020

Well-known member
Of course I care very much about Spurs, I was born within sight of the ground and first went in 1968. I'll watch them on TV whenever I can.
However, its not about glory and the so called big teams, it's about finding a team, a town and a bunch of fans you want to follow and be with. Not blowing my own trumpet but I fell in love with BFC in 1983. I was at Bury, Torquay, all the Play off Finals (except Exeter), have see Pool in all 4 divisions, in Latvia and on around 90 odd grounds ( even Barnet). I guess the point I'm making is that you don't have to from Blackpool to love and support BFC.

Herts

I agree with all you say there but not sure anybody has a problem with your love of Tottenham or the Mighty ?
 

Kyle Seasider

Well-known member
Only one team turned up because Spurs played really well and a Spurs side playing really well will beat a Burnley side comfortably.And it's easy to not recall gsmes like Villa scoring seven against Liverpool and saying yeah I didn't see it so I can't say if it was a good game or not. And I'd bet if you pretty much watched any L2, L1 and even Championship fixture you'd be equally if not moreso unimpressed. That's the nature of the beast for so many football fans watching teams they have no association or affiliation to. That's not a criticism it's just stating the reality of it.s
I've already said that I watched a Championship game this weekend and found the passion from the players to be much better. So no, you're wrong with that.
I've got to the point that if there is a lower league game on TV then I will watch that over a Premiership game.
Like I said, it's my opinion, you don't have to agree with it.
 

20togo

Well-known member
I've already said that I watched a Championship game this weekend and found the passion from the players to be much better. So no, you're wrong with that.
I've got to the point that if there is a lower league game on TV then I will watch that over a Premiership game.
Like I said, it's my opinion, you don't have to agree with it.
No problem, we disagree, but just to be clear I haven't mentioned the passion of the players. My point was centred around FANS watching tv games of teams they basically had no interest in.
 
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