Appleton - Charlton Manager

Just for balance…if critchley hadn’t fucked off weeks after signing a long contract and left the club in the shit, we would never have had Appleton would we…😃…🏌️‍♂️
 
Some of the comments on here are totally ridiculous. It didn't work out with us but with hindsight, had there been a choice between Appleton and McCarthy, I know which one I would have chosen.

Wouldn't it be typical for those, who have now written Charlton off, to be eating their words at the end of the season.
 
One of our worst Managers of all time, and DEFINITELY the least inspirational. It was horrible seeing him stood on side line, hands in pockets, and not a word to the team. He lost the dressing room, he lost ( never had ) the fans and rightly lost his job. Just wish we‘d had the sense never to appoint him, or at least sacked him 3 months earlier than we did. He won’t be top 6 with Charlton .
 
Charlton forum....

"Don’t know much about the geezer but I can’t do the whole pessimistic thing straight from the off. Good luck to the fella and I hope it’s the perfect fit. That’s all it is in league one, right manager at the right time and you’re off and running."

"Why was he appointed Blackpool manager? A. Because they were shit.
They appointed him and expected him to turn a crap side into world beaters. Blackpool are much like Watford."

"He's certainly preferable to Cowley, and they were probably the only two in the running, but his record at Blackpool certainly leaves you uncertain. On the other hand, he had a terrible squad then."

"His analogy should have been, run the Blackpool Managers roundabout. They’ve had 7 managers in 3 years."

"Let's face it we're not able to turn many heads when we walk into a room these days, I think we need him more than he needs us. Our squad isn't all-conquering but there's some good bones there and he's a good coach, I'm in the glass half full camp." (I like the down to earthness of that)

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Looks like he should be coaching St Helens
 
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voyeur said:
Charlton forum....

"Don’t know much about the geezer but I can’t do the whole pessimistic thing straight from the off. Good luck to the fella and I hope it’s the perfect fit. That’s all it is in league one, right manager at the right time and you’re off and running."

"Why was he appointed Blackpool manager? A. Because they were shit.
They appointed him and expected him to turn a crap side into world beaters. Blackpool are much like Watford."

"He's certainly preferable to Cowley, and they were probably the only two in the running, but his record at Blackpool certainly leaves you uncertain. On the other hand, he had a terrible squad then."

"His analogy should have been, run the Blackpool Managers roundabout. They’ve had 7 managers in 3 years."


Looks like he should be coaching St Helens
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Manager roundabout is a bit harsh🤒
 
voyeur said:
Charlton forum....

"Why was he appointed Blackpool manager? A. Because they were shit.
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Well we were a long way from shit, before Appleton arrived on the scene, that’s for certain.

A promotion, followed by an extremely solid season in the Championship….

As for any Blackpool Managerial Roundabout…. Well in terms of recent history, Appleton was the man who started it spinning 😉
 
A good 80% of what you read about us on other clubs' forums is wrong. And the same will apply on here about other clubs.
 
Let's not forget this tit and the other tit played Maxwell ahead of a substantially better keeper in Grimshaw for the majority of his tenure.
 
I'm 1000% with @Phil_bfc deux on this.

Appleton is nowhere near as bad as he's made out to be by a lot of our fans and I think we stay up if he stays.

It is what I think. I'm not taking a position or being contrary - It's just my honest opinion. Could be wrong, often am but we'll never know.

What we do know is that the posters who clamoured for 'back to basics and common sense' got it in great big fistfuls of folksy Yorkshire grit and it was ** useless. Almost as if we might have been better off letting the previous manager utilise players like Bowler, Rogers, a fit again Keshi and Fiorini...

His sacking became inevitable because of the melodrama around him but actually, I honestly don't think we were that far off being ok. Most of his worst results came with a joke of a squad that had no width, no midfield bite, very little experience and whilst it's valid to say maybe he could have played his hand slightly better, it was, from about October onwards, a pretty crap hand.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
Critchley did a number on him in the final that's for sure.
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They came very close to a second and history could have been very different.

Critchley also has significantly more backing to get us where we did than he did Lincoln.
 
td53 said:
I'm 1000% with @Phil_bfc deux on this.

Appleton is nowhere near as bad as he's made out to be by a lot of our fans and I think we stay up if he stays.

It is what I think. I'm not taking a position or being contrary - It's just my honest opinion. Could be wrong, often am but we'll never know.

What we do know is that the posters who clamoured for 'back to basics and common sense' got it in great big fistfuls of folksy Yorkshire grit and it was ** useless. Almost as if we might have been better off letting the previous manager utilise players like Bowler, Rogers, a fit again Keshi and Fiorini...

His sacking became inevitable because of the melodrama around him but actually, I honestly don't think we were that far off being ok. Most of his worst results came with a joke of a squad that had no width, no midfield bite, very little experience and whilst it's valid to say maybe he could have played his hand slightly better, it was, from about October onwards, a pretty crap hand.
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td53 said:
I'm 1000% with @Phil_bfc deux on this.

Appleton is nowhere near as bad as he's made out to be by a lot of our fans and I think we stay up if he stays.

It is what I think. I'm not taking a position or being contrary - It's just my honest opinion. Could be wrong, often am but we'll never know.

What we do know is that the posters who clamoured for 'back to basics and common sense' got it in great big fistfuls of folksy Yorkshire grit and it was ** useless. Almost as if we might have been better off letting the previous manager utilise players like Bowler, Rogers, a fit again Keshi and Fiorini...

His sacking became inevitable because of the melodrama around him but actually, I honestly don't think we were that far off being ok. Most of his worst results came with a joke of a squad that had no width, no midfield bite, very little experience and whilst it's valid to say maybe he could have played his hand slightly better, it was, from about October onwards, a pretty crap hand.
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SeasideKurt said:
Let's not forget this tit and the other tit played Maxwell ahead of a substantially better keeper in Grimshaw for the majority of his tenure.
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He deserved sacking for this shit decision alone and he had truly lost the dressing room.
 
Simonized said:
He deserved sacking for this shit decision alone and he had truly lost the dressing room.
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Don't agree. As I said at the time, dropping Grimmy for Maxwell was a valid option because we needed someone, anyone to organize the back line.

I'm as bigger fan of Grimmy as there is. I didn't mind that decision. Grimmy was in as poor form as he's ever been for us.

Not bringing Grimmy back when Maxwell's form was nosediving was wrong. Whether that's on Appleton or Mick, or both, I don't know.

I didn't go to Watford, but I did go to both Hull - where we played perfectly acceptably and Forest at home, where we played well and in neither game did I think 'this lot aren't doing it for him'
 
What is the truth about Appleton?! I dunno but here's some thoughts that attempt a balance of sorts...

He got Oxford promoted from L2 and their fans seemed to date him.

He took Lincoln to a L1 play off final having built a good side in the summer with Brennan J, Rogers, Bridcutt, Montana, Eyoma etc. Blend of good young loans and some experience

He then had cancer and rushed back to work and struggled. And mutually departed.

He took over here from Critch and instantly said we'd over achieved under Critch. Not the brightest thing to say. Not how Holloway tackled a similar situation.

He crucially lost Kev Stewart to a whole season injury. KS made a big difference to us in our promotion run and ghen establishing is in the Championship.

He did acquire some good young Prem lads on loan but we lacked any solidity in midfield all season. Got played through. Not entirely MAs fault. But we gradually got worse. He didn't seem to inspire or organise the players.

McCarthy came in and made us appreciably worse. We may well have stayed up if we'd stuck with MA, remarkably. It was a close run thing.

Dobbie came in and made us appreciably better.

MA seemed a really nice but very dull guy. The buzz just drained away.

If I was a L1 club owner looking for a head coach I'd look for the young energetic types with personality and ideas, and coaching experience at a good club. It's a very harsh career and weve witnessed the damage it has done to the likes of Grayson and Appleton.

But success is never just about one man. A club needs to get various things aligned and sorted to achieve success. Managers tend to have periods of alignment and periods of non alignment. The best managers choose the best aligned clubs.

MA made a mistake coming to us, and SS made a mistake bringing him here, given the history. He may fare better at Charlton, but he needs the players. Like he had at Lincoln for one season.
 
td53 said:
I'm 1000% with @Phil_bfc deux on this.

Appleton is nowhere near as bad as he's made out to be by a lot of our fans and I think we stay up if he stays.

It is what I think. I'm not taking a position or being contrary - It's just my honest opinion. Could be wrong, often am but we'll never know.

What we do know is that the posters who clamoured for 'back to basics and common sense' got it in great big fistfuls of folksy Yorkshire grit and it was ** useless. Almost as if we might have been better off letting the previous manager utilise players like Bowler, Rogers, a fit again Keshi and Fiorini...

His sacking became inevitable because of the melodrama around him but actually, I honestly don't think we were that far off being ok. Most of his worst results came with a joke of a squad that had no width, no midfield bite, very little experience and whilst it's valid to say maybe he could have played his hand slightly better, it was, from about October onwards, a pretty crap hand.
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He definitely needed a fit DM or two that could do the job required. And that weakened us a lot.

And we didnt get to see what he could do with the January signings. It 3as crazy to sign those players and then appoint MM. That combination of thinking sent us down.

MA wasn't great though. We were disintegrating gradually under him. Losing shape and belief, and discipline. Things weren't right.
 
voyeur said:
He definitely needed a fit DM or two that could do the job required. And that weakened us a lot.

And we didnt get to see what he could do with the January signings. It 3as crazy to sign those players and then appoint MM. That combination of thinking sent us down.

MA wasn't great though. We were disintegrating gradually under him. Losing shape and belief, and discipline. Things weren't right.
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Things got worse when we got in someone famed for structure, simplicity and discipline...
 
voyeur said:
I'm glad you're starting to appreciate it.
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Going to spend the day hoovering my car mats in a polo shirt humming 'the lion sleeps tonight' and then applying weed killer to the base of all the walls in the garden whilst humming 'eye or the tiger' before having some plain ham sandwiches. All in loving tribute to the wee man and what he brings to my life.
 
td53 said:
I'm 1000% with @Phil_bfc deux on this.

Appleton is nowhere near as bad as he's made out to be by a lot of our fans and I think we stay up if he stays.

It is what I think. I'm not taking a position or being contrary - It's just my honest opinion. Could be wrong, often am but we'll never know.

What we do know is that the posters who clamoured for 'back to basics and common sense' got it in great big fistfuls of folksy Yorkshire grit and it was ** useless. Almost as if we might have been better off letting the previous manager utilise players like Bowler, Rogers, a fit again Keshi and Fiorini...

His sacking became inevitable because of the melodrama around him but actually, I honestly don't think we were that far off being ok. Most of his worst results came with a joke of a squad that had no width, no midfield bite, very little experience and whilst it's valid to say maybe he could have played his hand slightly better, it was, from about October onwards, a pretty crap hand.
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I always try and be as positive as I possibly can about a manager (regardless of my personal reservations) and I applied that positivity to both Appleton and McCarthy, despite huge reservations about both appointments.

There's no doubt that McCarthy turned out to be a terrible appointment and let's face it, anyone who had half a clue about the relative strengths and weaknesses of that squad would have seen that it was quite possibly the biggest mismatch that the world has ever seen. For me... That one decision raised real alarm bells about the competency of those who were supposed to be running the Club at the time.

However, although McCarthy was probably the worst Blackpool Managerial appointment in my lifetime, I'm not sure that means that the bloke who preceded him was somehow competent, because he simply wasn't.

Of course, it's difficult to know exactly what part Appleton played in the recruitment process. It's popular to assume he had no part in it and was royally shafted, however the shift to a significant number of Loan Players would suggest to me that he played a pivotal role in shaping the strategy. He was unlucky with Injury's however (although the haphazard / stretched style of football may well have contributed to the problem) and we lacked a holding midfielder for certain.

I'm not sure I saw anything with Appleton that suggested he was capable of achieving anything much better than we saw though .... I'd be interested to know what it was that you saw in him that made you think he was remotely capable? I mean what positive attributes did he actually display during his time at Blackpool (on both occasions).

I mean at the very least if you believe your squad lacks quality (and personally I think he overplayed that) then you should set out to be well drilled and organised..... They were disorganised and ill-disciplined and players didn't seem to understand their roles.

You should try to be positive, confident and assured.... He was negative, defeated and seemed to have no clue as to what he was doing (remember the early interview after playing 3 at the back?).


It feels to me like the entire 'pro-Appleton' argument is founded on some kind of 'Benefit of the Doubt', 'If My Auntie had Bollocks, She'd be my Uncle' type of mentality, whereby we have somehow assumed that this serial loser would have somehow miraculously transformed into a serial winner, "if he had only........"
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I always try and be as positive as I possibly can about a manager (regardless of my personal reservations) and I applied that positivity to both Appleton and McCarthy, despite huge reservations about both appointments.

There's no doubt that McCarthy turned out to be a terrible appointment and let's face it, anyone who had half a clue about the relative strengths and weaknesses of that squad would have seen that it was quite possibly the biggest mismatch that the world has ever seen. For me... That one decision raised real alarm bells about the competency of those who were supposed to be running the Club at the time.

However, although McCarthy was probably the worst Blackpool Managerial appointment in my lifetime, I'm not sure that means that the bloke who preceded him was somehow competent, because he simply wasn't.

Of course, it's difficult to know exactly what part Appleton played in the recruitment process. It's popular to assume he had no part in it and was royally shafted, however the shift to a significant number of Loan Players would suggest to me that he played a pivotal role in shaping the strategy. He was unlucky with Injury's however (although the haphazard / stretched style of football may well have contributed to the problem) and we lacked a holding midfielder for certain.

I'm not sure I saw anything with Appleton that suggested he was capable of achieving anything much better than we saw though .... I'd be interested to know what it was that you saw in him that made you think he was remotely capable? I mean what positive attributes did he actually display during his time at Blackpool (on both occasions).

I mean at the very least if you believe your squad lacks quality (and personally I think he overplayed that) then you should set out to be well drilled and organised..... They were disorganised and ill-disciplined and players didn't seem to understand their roles.

You should try to be positive, confident and assured.... He was negative, defeated and seemed to have no clue as to what he was doing (remember the early interview after playing 3 at the back?).


It fees to me like the entire 'pro-Appleton' argument is founded on some kind of 'Benefit of the Doubt', 'If My Auntie had Bollocks, She'd be my Uncle' type of mentality, whereby we have somehow assumed that this serial loser would have somehow miraculously transformed into a serial winner, "if he had only........"
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I got what he wanted to do - under Critch we were solid and effective, but it was never going to take us to another level, at least not without Critch evolving what he'd done the previous season. I'm sure Critch himself realized that the second season would be a challenge.

The way we played at Sheff U was genuinely fantastic (till sending off) and we dominated them. We played really well at QPR. we played really well at Coventry. We were irrisistable in two spells against PNE and Burnley.

When he had something like the right players, he got us playing in a way that Critchley never really tried to. We had fluidity and movement. We controlled games or, in the Burnley game, we took control back.

That fluidity came at a cost. It meant in other games we looked formless. His refusal to bellow instructions, I always took to be an ideology of trusting players to make decisions.

I could see why you'd try to do that after a few years of Critch's highly coached style. Ive no doubt Critch would have been looking for a bit more control in games too.

I think he was let down by his own man management style, but actually, I thought his football approach was quite coherent and even games like Wigan and Hull that I mentioned above, where we were really hamstrung by not having the right players on the pitch, we did ok.

I liked that he stuck to what he wanted and I honestly, honestly thought we were a fit DM and a new Bowler (who turned out to be Bowler) away from being actually ok because whilst we were losing and drawing, he never really went searching for answers that weren't there (as Mick did with a new formation every week) and that as I've said above, players like Keshi, Fiorini, Bowler, Rogers could have dropped in.

Oddly, I think, for a manager who is derided as 'lower league' - he tried to play a more sophisticated type of football than we had the players for.
 
td53 said:
Going to spend the day hoovering my car mats in a polo shirt humming 'the lion sleeps tonight' and then applying weed killer to the base of all the walls in the garden whilst humming 'eye or the tiger' before having some plain ham sandwiches. All in loving tribute to the wee man and what he brings to my life.
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Finally learning how to live. You have one man to thank. You're obviously still in development and still have some doubts. But. Don't forget the recent 12 months of turmoil in your life.

And trust the process.
 
td53 said:
I got what he wanted to do - under Critch we were solid and effective, but it was never going to take us to another level, at least not without Critch evolving what he'd done the previous season. I'm sure Critch himself realized that the second season would be a challenge.

The way we played at Sheff U was genuinely fantastic (till sending off) and we dominated them. We played really well at QPR. we played really well at Coventry. We were irrisistable in two spells against PNE and Burnley.

When he had something like the right players, he got us playing in a way that Critchley never really tried to. We had fluidity and movement. We controlled games or, in the Burnley game, we took control back.

That fluidity came at a cost. It meant in other games we looked formless. His refusal to bellow instructions, I always took to be an ideology of trusting players to make decisions.

I could see why you'd try to do that after a few years of Critch's highly coached style.

I think he was let down by his own man management style, but actually, I thought his football approach was quite coherent and even games like Wigan and Hull that I mentioned above, where we were really hamstrung by not having the right players on the pitch, we did ok.

I liked that he stuck to what he wanted and I honestly, honestly thought we were a fit DM and a new Bowler (who turned out to be Bowler) away from being actually ok because whilst we were losing and drawing, he never really went searching for answers that weren't there (as Mick did with a new formation every week) and that as I've said above, players like Keshi, Fiorini, Bowler, Rogers could have dropped in.

Oddly, I think, for a manager who is derided as 'lower league' - he tried to play a more sophisticated type of football than we had the players for.
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I'm gonna park the Critch conversation... Personally I'm more than confident he has the capability to move us on.... He's just not stupid enough to persist with a style that doesn't suit. Whichever way you look at it, a dislike of Critchley is no more a plus point for Appleton than the fact that McCarthy turned out to be shitter.

I'm not sure that wanting to do something or having an attractive idea, qualifies you as being a capable manager does it? Surely there has to be some element of actually achieving what you set out to achieve factored into the equation?

I think where you saw fluidity, I saw complete disarray and naivety. I saw young players who had no clear direction and a team that just fell apart at the seams... To my mind, fluidity doesn't come from just tipping up and letting everyone 'Express themselves'... It's built on a proper foundation , where individual players can shine or impose themselves, whilst other players understand how to plug the gaps. It requires intelligence and good quality coaching.

As I said above, It all feels very much a case of "He'd have been great if....." .. and then we need to imagine him being great, rather than actually seeing any of it for real.

It's possible he was trying to play a more sophisticated type of football than we had the players for, it's possible he was trying to play a more sophisticated stye of football than he had the capability of coaching and it's also possible that he was clueless and relies on better players to carry him.... Whichever way you look at it, the style was a poor fit for us and therefore a poor choice on his part, which in my opinion adds up to a poor manager... It also seems a bit odd that his supposedly more sophisticated style has shown itself to be more successful the lower down the leagues you go and has pretty much flopped every time he's tried to implement it at Championship level .... To my mind the way his results drop off the cliff edge as he moves up the level, suggests a competency gap

As I see it, Good Manager's / Coaches can achieve a lot with a limited squad.... Appleton (for whatever reason) simply cannot seem to work on a limited (relative to his peers) budget...
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I'm gonna park the Critch conversation... Personally I'm more than confident he has the capability to move us on.... He's just not stupid enough to persist with a style that doesn't suit. Whichever way you look at it, a dislike of Critchley is no more a plus point for Appleton than the fact that McCarthy turned out to be shitter.

I'm not sure that wanting to do something or having an attractive idea, qualifies you as being a capable manager does it? Surely there has to be some element of actually achieving what you set out to achieve factored into the equation?

I think where you saw fluidity, I saw complete disarray and naivety. I saw young players who had no clear direction and a team that just fell apart at the seams... To my mind, fluidity doesn't come from just tipping up and letting everyone 'Express themselves'... It's built on a proper foundation , where individual players can shine or impose themselves, whilst other players understand how to plug the gaps. It requires intelligence and good quality coaching.

As I said above, It all feels very much a case of "He'd have been great if....." .. and then we need to imagine him being great, rather than actually seeing any of it for real.

It's possible he was trying to play a more sophisticated type of football than we had the players for, it's possible he was trying to play a more sophisticated stye of football than he had the capability of coaching and it's also possible that he was clueless and relies on better players to carry him.... Whichever way you look at it, the style was a poor fit for us and therefore a poor choice on his part, which in my opinion adds up to a poor manager... It also seems a bit odd that his supposedly more sophisticated style has shown itself to be more successful the lower down the leagues you go and has pretty much flopped every time he's tried to implement it at Championship level .... To my mind the way his results drop off the cliff edge as he moves up the level, suggests a competency gap

As I see it, Good Manager's / Coaches can achieve a lot with a limited squad.... Appleton (for whatever reason) simply cannot seem to work on a limited (relative to his peers) budget...
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Nothing I said was about a dislike of Critchley though. 🤷

I had and have, a lot of respect for what Critch has achieved.

We played a particular way under Critchley in the first season. That was effective, but limited in long term scope. It was quite inventive in terms of using what he had cleverly but it wasn't good for controlling a game.

We played significantly better football under Critchley at the back end of the League promotion year. That didn't translate to the way we played in the division above. That's not criticism. It's just context.

The point I am making, is not Appleton v Critch - it is that the challenge was to get us playing more football, regardless of who the manager is because our style was not viable over a long period of time and certainly wasn't viable without both Bowler or Keshi.

Which is a hard challenge, regardless of who the manager was

I've offered 5 or 6 games where we played well. I could add more, we scored 3 against Bristol, we played pretty well against Norwich and were unlucky to lose.

We were in plenty more games. The Wigan game is one example of a game we could have easily gone 2 or more up in. We didn't.

I'm certainly not trying to paint the guy as Bill Shankly or Herbert Chapman. I'm just saying, I, personally think he would have got us over the line in a season that was always going to be difficult and that a lot of posters and fans who got on his back could see nothing positive about anything he did. I felt that season was an extremely difficult one and it was a minority who were prepared to look at it as such.

In my opinion, that contributed to an atmosphere that was pretty grim to play in and, when, as you say, you've got a load of kids who've barely played in front of a crowd in their life, isn't ideal.

Some of those same fans are ones who lecture others on 'supoorting' when people they like are objects of criticism.

I was, to be honest, pretty horrified when we went for Appleton in the first place. He wasn't someone I backed or ever hugely warmed to - i just came to feel that I liked what he was clearly *trying* to do and felt it would come good (or at least better) with Jan players in and that the reaction to pretty much everything he did was frankly, a bit grim.
 
td53 said:
Nothing I said was about a dislike of Critchley though. 🤷

I had and have, a lot of respect for what Critch has achieved.

We played a particular way under Critchley in the first season. That was effective, but limited in long term scope. It was quite inventive in terms of using what he had cleverly but it wasn't good for controlling a game.

We played significantly better football under Critchley at the back end of the League promotion year. That didn't translate to the way we played in the division above. That's not criticism. It's just context.

The point I am making, is not Appleton v Critch - it is that the challenge was to get us playing more football, regardless of who the manager is because our style was not viable over a long period of time and certainly wasn't viable without both Bowler or Keshi.

Which is a hard challenge, regardless of who the manager was

I've offered 5 or 6 games where we played well. I could add more, we scored 3 against Bristol, we played pretty well against Norwich and were unlucky to lose.

We were in plenty more games. The Wigan game is one example of a game we could have easily gone 2 or more up in. We didn't.

I'm certainly not trying to paint the guy as Bill Shankly or Herbert Chapman. I'm just saying, I, personally think he would have got us over the line in a season that was always going to be difficult and that a lot of posters and fans who got on his back could see nothing positive about anything he did. I felt that season was an extremely difficult one and it was a minority who were prepared to look at it as such.

In my opinion, that contributed to an atmosphere that was pretty grim to play in and, when, as you say, you've got a load of kids who've barely played in front of a crowd in their life, isn't ideal.

Some of those same fans are ones who lecture others on 'supoorting' when people they like are objects of criticism.

I was, to be honest, pretty horrified when we went for Appleton in the first place. He wasn't someone I backed or ever hugely warmed to - i just came to feel that I liked what he was clearly *trying* to do and felt it would come good (or at least better) with Jan players in and that the reaction to pretty much everything he did was frankly, a bit grim.
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OK… let me put it differently then…

A dislike of Critchley’s style…. Is that a fair assessment?

As you acknowledge, Critchley has shown himself capable of adapting his ‘style’ and so essentially what we saw in our first championship season was simply a demonstration of pragmatism and a means to an end…. In many ways the coaching intelligence to realise that AppleBall wasn’t an option.

I’m not sure that the challenge was to get us playing more football either. At least not in the immediate term… The challenge was very much to consolidate our position in the championship within the context of our budgetary constraints… I think the ideas about entertainment and what have you became an unwanted distraction …. A longer term goal, of course, but we needed to be practical.

I too think he might have just about scraped us over the line, but I’m by no means certain. Much of that rests in McCarthy being super-shit and the fact that other clubs lost points (through deductions) as opposed to any genuine faith in his ability though. I also think he’d have relegated us sooner or later.

The atmosphere was grim and I was very vocal at the time is saying our fans should get behind the manager… (until Watford away when my head fell off) …The kids though were down to him imho…

Top and bottom of it… his results were shit and he was pretty shit too.
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
OK… let me put it differently then…

A dislike of Critchley’s style…. Is that a fair assessment?

As you acknowledge, Critchley has shown himself capable of adapting his ‘style’ and so essentially what we saw in our first season was simply a demonstration of pragmatism and a means to an end…. In many ways the coaching intelligence to realise that AppleBall wasn’t an option.

I’m not sure that the challenge was to get us playing more football either. At least not in the immediate term… The challenge was very much to consolidate our position in the championship within the context of our budgetary constraints… I think the ideas about entertainment and what have you became an unwanted distraction …. A longer term goal, of course, but we needed to be practical.

I too think he might have just about scraped us over the line, but I’m by no means certain. Much of that rests in McCarthy being super-shit and the fact that other clubs lost points as opposed to any genuine faith in his ability though. I also think he’d have relegated us sooner or later.

The atmosphere was grim and I was very vocal at the time is saying our fans should get behind the manager… (until Watford away when my head fell off) …The kids though were down to him imho…

Top and bottom of it… his results were shit and he was pretty shit too.
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It's not a dislike. It's just a fact. We couldn't expect to continue to play the same way.

Even if we had set up the same, Keshi out all year and Bowler toddling off would have rendered it impossible.

I think the point I'm making is that whoever was the manager, Critchley, Appleton, Uncle Tom Cobley would have had their work cut out last season.

A lot of people (I'm not saying you, I don't take notes as I read the boards) wanted him to 'go back to what worked last year) but that wasn't an option. What worked the year before just wasn't there. We were so short of width he ended playing Beesley wide ffs.

I agree the young players were likely down to him - but he didn't injure Stewart and Bridcutt and in signing Trybull (who then got injured) and Bridcutt he clearly knew we needed (and didn't possess) the older head in midfield we desperately needed. Neither did he injured Fiorini who, of the young players probably had the most mature head on his shoulders.

Of course it's if, but, maybe but without him staying till the end of the season it can never be anything else.

Long and short for me, is, I wouldn't have sacked him when they did. On the pod I think I reluctantly agreed that his position has become untenable but I'd like to think, had I appointed the lad and believed in that process by which I'd appointed him, I'd have stuck to it because in not doing so, we made a difficult situation much worse - at the time, the cry of half this board was...

"We can't do any worse"

We could and we did. It got a lot worse. I would put some of the Mick games as the most depressing experiences I've ever had at a football match. I didn't feel that way when Appleton was there. It wasn't great sometimes. It was pretty poor sometimes in fact, but I didn't feel the complete pointlessness of it all making me want to just go home and fuck it off.

I'm not trying to remake history and say 'he's a combination of Ollie, Joe Smith and Billy Ayre' - I'm just saying there's a slightly different set of circumstances (including him staying and using what we'd bought better than Mick) where actually, he shows himself to be a semi competent football manager with some strengths and flaws, (like most) as opposed to the despised, clueless moron he is painted as.

Hey ho. He'll either do ok at Charlton or he won't. Or somewhere in between.

It's history. We read it differently. 🤷
 
The loss of Bowler Keshi and Stewart were pretty major definitely. Critch would've struggled with that scenario. I think he would've picked up more points though. Better preparation, better morale, better use of the players he had and probably more pragmatic signings to create something that functioned better.

In hindsight (for me) we should have seen what MA could do with the january signings. I wanted rid of him though cos we were just deteriorating. Also in hindsight, the best option was to replace him with Dobbie. The sooner the better really. But nobody knows how any of the options would have worked out. Critch may have had a disaster season. Dobbie may have fizzled out. MA may have turned us round. We'll never know. Thy all have strengths and weaknsss, inc McCarthy, and thy are all stuck in a specific set of circumstances that only apply at that time. Slightly different squads, injuries, mood in the club, supporter behaviour, tattoo acceptance levels etc.
 
td53 said:
It's not a dislike. It's just a fact. We couldn't expect to continue to play the same way.

Even if we had set up the same, Keshi out all year and Bowler toddling off would have rendered it impossible.

I think the point I'm making is that whoever was the manager, Critchley, Appleton, Uncle Tom Cobley would have had their work cut out last season.

A lot of people (I'm not saying you, I don't take notes as I read the boards) wanted him to 'go back to what worked last year) but that wasn't an option. What worked the year before just wasn't there. We were so short of width he ended playing Beesley wide ffs.

I agree the young players were likely down to him - but he didn't injure Stewart and Bridcutt and in signing Trybull (who then got injured) and Bridcutt he clearly knew we needed (and didn't possess) the older head in midfield we desperately needed. Neither did he injured Fiorini who, of the young players probably had the most mature head on his shoulders.

Of course it's if, but, maybe but without him staying till the end of the season it can never be anything else.

Long and short for me, is, I wouldn't have sacked him when they did. On the pod I think I reluctantly agreed that his position has become untenable but I'd like to think, had I appointed the lad and believed in that process by which I'd appointed him, I'd have stuck to it because in not doing so, we made a difficult situation much worse - at the time, the cry of half this board was...

"We can't do any worse"

We could and we did. It got a lot worse. I would put some of the Mick games as the most depressing experiences I've ever had at a football match. I didn't feel that way when Appleton was there. It wasn't great sometimes. It was pretty poor sometimes in fact, but I didn't feel the complete pointlessness of it all making me want to just go home and fuck it off.

I'm not trying to remake history and say 'he's a combination of Ollie, Joe Smith and Billy Ayre' - I'm just saying there's a slightly different set of circumstances (including him staying and using what we'd bought better than Mick) where actually, he shows himself to be a semi competent football manager with some strengths and flaws, (like most) as opposed to the despised, clueless moron he is painted as.

Hey ho. He'll either do ok at Charlton or he won't. Or somewhere in between.

It's history. We read it differently. 🤷
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OK maybe I’ve completely misunderstood your regular references to Critchball, downer on his appointment and expressed distaste for the brand of football as somehow not particularly liking it🤷

Anyway.. swiftly moving on..

Critchley ‘had his work cut out’ in the previous season. We signed players (under his watch) and adapted our style (even from game to game) to meet the challenge.

I’m not sure it was so much of ‘going back to what worked’ as stopping doing stuff that didn’t work and making the most of what we had. I think he made a lot of his own problems with an ill considered policy of over-reliance on loans and appointing a complete crock in Bridcutt, as well as the poor discipline that resulted in so many cards. I also wonder how many signings we missed out on because of him…Critchley seem to have the opposite effect!!!

All that said, I don’t think I would have sacked him either. In fact I’ve said previously that I wouldn’t have. Once we’d committed to going through the Window with him, I think we needed to give him a few more games to turn things around… I can’t remember back now, but there was a point that could have been used as a natural cut off point.

Saying that, I’m also not entirely sure that the ‘Clueless Moron’ tag is entirely unfounded. He’s certainly a bit of a thicko and that doesn’t help his cause… Poor choice of words was a consistent theme in his pre / post match interviews, the sulky persona and the inability to engage in a way that served him… He comes across as struggling to manage his relationships and a lot of that boils down to him operating (intellectually) on a pretty basic level… A classic ‘Gym Head’ tbh. (Makes you wonder, especially given the recent comments about how over-use of gym affects Hamstring Injuries, whether he was even to blame for the sudden increase too).
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
OK maybe I’ve completely misunderstood your regular references to Critchball, downer on his appointment and expressed distaste for the brand of football as somehow not particularly liking it🤷

Anyway.. swiftly moving on..

Critchley ‘had his work cut out’ in the previous season. We signed players (under his watch) and adapted our style (even from game to game) to meet the challenge.

I’m not sure it was so much of ‘going back to what worked’ as stopping doing stuff that didn’t work and making the most of what we had. I think he made a lot of his own problems with an ill considered policy of over-reliance on loans and appointing a complete crock in Bridcutt, as well as the poor discipline that resulted in so many cards. I also wonder how many signings we missed out on because of him…Critchley seem to have the opposite effect!!!

All that said, I don’t think I would have sacked him either. In fact I’ve said previously that I wouldn’t have. Once we’d committed to going through the Window with him, I think we needed to give him a few more games to turn things around… I can’t remember back now, but there was a point that could have been used as a natural cut off point.

Saying that, I’m also not entirely sure that the ‘Clueless Moron’ tag is entirely unfounded. He’s certainly a bit of a thicko and that doesn’t help his cause… Poor choice of words was a consistent theme in his pre / post match interviews, the sulky persona and the inability to engage in a way that served him… He comes across as struggling to manage his relationships and a lot of that boils down to him operating (intellectually) on a pretty basic level… A classic ‘Gym Head’ tbh. (Makes you wonder, especially given the recent comments about how over-use of gym affects Hamstring Injuries, whether he was even to blame for the sudden increase too).
Click to expand...

I've made many positive references to Critchley. Many. I wrote a ** book about what he achieved. I might have called him a snaky body warmer prick a few times too, but I've stopped myself now . . 🤣

I absolutely didn't want him back, no. I didn't get my way and he's here and I'm happy for him to be so. My preference was for a fresh start, a new project and a new young manager with new ideas. Sadler went for the effective but, to me, more prosaic choice.

The cult of Critch is a bit weird. The truth is, he's achieved roughly the same with us as Simon Grayson achieved. He's made us a good and at times very good, almost never less than functional football team and hopefully he will do so again. He's not always entertaining and he sometimes frustrates with caution. I don't undervalue that.

His drawbacks in terms of thrills and spills are counter balanced by his obvious intelligence and ability to create some very odd but effective formations and his ability to run a club as a whole and create a sense of harmony and purpose.

He doesn't play the football I would try to play were I managing a football team. He's no doubt more effective in just about every aspect than I would be.

What I find odd is the idea that me saying 'Critchball' is pragmatic and based around certain principles of solidity is seen as criticism. It is. That is borne out by almost every aspect of his tenure.

Even this year, we put in our best performance (Wigan) when we played a more counter attacking game because they came on to us.

I'm hoping Critch evolves with time into a coach who can harness his many strengths to a slightly bolder approach.

I think the gym bunny comment is a bit one dimensional. I mean, someone like Henry Rollins, or for that matter our own John Robb are both noted for both their depth and their biceps but also for being characters with some sharp angles.

I always liked to imagine Appleton lifting weights with a bit of Black Flag in the background.

Ultimately, I agree with your point about timing. We're I in Sadler's shoes I'd like to think I'd have given him 5 or 6 games with his new players and then reviewed it. Kind of as he did with Larry. See the window out and a game or two more and look if it's getting better or not.
 
td53 said:
I'm 1000% with @Phil_bfc deux on this.

Appleton is nowhere near as bad as he's made out to be by a lot of our fans and I think we stay up if he stays.

It is what I think. I'm not taking a position or being contrary - It's just my honest opinion. Could be wrong, often am but we'll never know.

What we do know is that the posters who clamoured for 'back to basics and common sense' got it in great big fistfuls of folksy Yorkshire grit and it was ** useless. Almost as if we might have been better off letting the previous manager utilise players like Bowler, Rogers, a fit again Keshi and Fiorini...

His sacking became inevitable because of the melodrama around him but actually, I honestly don't think we were that far off being ok. Most of his worst results came with a joke of a squad that had no width, no midfield bite, very little experience and whilst it's valid to say maybe he could have played his hand slightly better, it was, from about October onwards, a pretty crap hand.
Click to expand...
Bang on

That's why I bought your book

Actually........
 
td53 said:
I've made many positive references to Critchley. Many. I wrote a ** book about what he achieved. I might have called him a snaky body warmer prick a few times too, but I've stopped myself now . . 🤣

I absolutely didn't want him back, no. I didn't get my way and he's here and I'm happy for him to be so. My preference was for a fresh start, a new project and a new young manager with new ideas. Sadler went for the effective but, to me, more prosaic choice.

The cult of Critch is a bit weird. The truth is, he's achieved roughly the same with us as Simon Grayson achieved. He's made us a good and at times very good, almost never less than functional football team and hopefully he will do so again. He's not always entertaining and he sometimes frustrates with caution. I don't undervalue that.

His drawbacks in terms of thrills and spills are counter balanced by his obvious intelligence and ability to create some very odd but effective formations and his ability to run a club as a whole and create a sense of harmony and purpose.

He doesn't play the football I would try to play were I managing a football team. He's no doubt more effective in just about every aspect than I would be.

What I find odd is the idea that me saying 'Critchball' is pragmatic and based around certain principles of solidity is seen as criticism. It is. That is borne out by almost every aspect of his tenure.

Even this year, we put in our best performance (Wigan) when we played a more counter attacking game because they came on to us.

I'm hoping Critch evolves with time into a coach who can harness his many strengths to a slightly bolder approach.

I think the gym bunny comment is a bit one dimensional. I mean, someone like Henry Rollins, or for that matter our own John Robb are both noted for both their depth and their biceps but also for being characters with some sharp angles.

I always liked to imagine Appleton lifting weights with a bit of Black Flag in the background.

Ultimately, I agree with your point about timing. We're I in Sadler's shoes I'd like to think I'd have given him 5 or 6 games with his new players and then reviewed it. Kind of as he did with Larry. See the window out and a game or two more and look if it's getting better or not.
Click to expand...
I think Apples would be lost in a conversation with John Robb and Henry Rollins.

I suspect he’d be more at home with Keith Harris & Orville 😂
 
td53 said:
I'm 1000% with @Phil_bfc deux on this.

Appleton is nowhere near as bad as he's made out to be by a lot of our fans and I think we stay up if he stays.
Click to expand...
I agree but I also don't think he's as good as you and Phil seem to think he is either. And I think the Championship is above his level. Decent L1/L2 coach.
 
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