Are we being duped with EV's

Bennys_was_a_mob

Bennys_was_a_mob

Well-known member
Just seen these headlines on a politics program as I entered the brew room but never got to hear the end results.
So what's the general consensus here on "a view" ?
My wife is getting a EV next week swapping the 3.0l diesel Merc for a 50kw e2006, I'm not concerned about the swap as we will save a fortune on diesel costs and to charge the 2006 from 0 to 100% will cost us about £10 as we are still on a fixed deal till November 2024.
Range of about 170 miles may be a problem but it would mostly be used locally and if we were going any further we would probably use the van.
So to me it's a 👍 on this swap but would be interesting to know others views.
 
My main concern with electric cars is the infrastructure for charging them up. Not everyone, in fact i would say a massive %age, lives in a house with a drive where it can be charged up overnight.

One of the sales guys at my work got one. Stopped at services to charge up when out in the road one day and there were 15 cars in front of him waiting to do the same. Had a wait of over an hour.

Fundamentally I guess they are a great idea and gets us away from a dependency on petrol/diesel and the issues they bring up. Just not sure that as a country we are ready for full scale replacements to electric.
 
Pauls_Boutique said:
My main concern with electric cars is the infrastructure for charging them up. Not everyone lives in a house with a drive where it can be charged up overnight.

One of the sales guys at my work got one. Stopped at services to charge up when out in the road one day and there were 15 cars in front of him waiting to do the same. Had a wait of over an hour.

Fundamentally I guess they are a great idea and gets us away from a dependency on petrol/diesel and the issue they bring up. Just not sure that as a country we are ready for full scale replacements to electric.
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My mate has one, living in a terraced house with no front garden. Council won't let you run a power cable from the house.

He has to go to a charging station and wait 45 mins.
 
If you can charge from home, it's cheaper, if you have to use a public charger it's more expensive.

But............

The above only applies because petrol is usually 60% - 70% tax, and the treasury isn't going to give up the £30bn or so easily, so it's only a matter of time before some kind of road-pricing scheme comes in to replace it, at which point you're going to be paying for the as expensive as petrol electricity, plus the same again in toll charges.

So, in the long run, most of us are going to be walking everywhere.
 
Lost Seasider said:
If you can charge from home, it's cheaper, if you have to use a public charger it's more expensive.

But............

The above only applies because petrol is usually 60% - 70% tax, and the treasury isn't going to give up the £30bn or so easily, so it's only a matter of time before some kind of road-pricing scheme comes in to replace it, at which point you're going to be paying for the as expensive as petrol electricity, plus the same again in toll charges.

So, in the long run, most of us are going to be walking everywhere.
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Until this year parking for EVs was free in Leeds. It isn't any more.
 
Where I live totally impractical, and as far as I can see impractical in most of the world

I liked the idea when I first saw Tesla’s but now, not a chance for the foreseeable
 
We swapped a Q7 diesel for a Kuga hybrid last year. Felt a full EV at this stage was premature so obviously we don’t have any issues with charging with a hybrid.

The new car is much cheaper to run, and it’s nice to see the electrics kick in as they are “free miles”, but there are things I miss about the Audi. Basically it was like driving a tank and was pretty much unstoppable whatever the weather conditions. Comparing chalk and cheese really. But I don’t regret the switch.

We have a four wheel drive petrol car for longer/poor weather journeys.
 
Single worst idea of progression in my lifetime. So many down sides to them. They will prove to be the Betamax of the vehicle industry.

Even hearing now of new problems with them, their batteries make them much heavier leading to more pot holes and the threat of older multi-story car parks collapsing under a weight they were never built for.
 
I have a Tesla EV and would never even consider going back to a petrol / diesel. Unfortunately the range is just insufficient to get to home game and back without a stop; the Tesla charging point at Tebay makes it really quick mind you. That's OK in warmer months but in winter it aint as good. Charging at home is great - get home and put it on charge. I did it on the carbon footprint issues TBH, but no regrets in any other regards.
 
How will our electricity infrastructure cope with hundreds of thousands/millions of new electric vehicles being charged at peak times? Without looking into it I'd hazard a guess charging a car uses a lot more power than charging a mobile phone.
 
HighfieldSeasider said:
How will our electricity infrastructure cope with hundreds of thousands/millions of new electric vehicles being charged at peak times? Without looking into it I'd hazard a guess charging a car uses a lot more power than charging a mobile phone.
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At current levels it won't, electricity demand (as oppposed to oil and gas) is expected to increase massively over the next decade or so in the UK. We've been enjoying a long period now of reduction in demand despite increasing population, thanks to improvements in energy efficiency of household appliances. But going forwards we will need to generate a lot more electrical power, which is why it is essential we invest in more production and stop NIMBYism from preventing this. The effective ban on onshore wind coming to an end would be a good start.
 
My view is that there will be a MyElectricCarClaim advert on TV before long.

Hanging on for a decent Hydrogen option. Now that will be a game changer
 
tangerine_neil said:
My view is that there will be a MyElectricCarClaim advert on TV before long.

Hanging on for a decent Hydrogen option. Now that will be a game changer
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What's the deal with Hydrogen? I've read bits but everyone seems to believe it's so much more expensive and harder to scale than electric that it'a very unlikely to play a big role, so I haven't bothered much to learn further about it.
 
It’s a new tech, but basically runs off water. 😁
BMW seem to be ahead of the game.
I’d like to see a scaled out version of that U.K. blokes invention in his shed that ran off compressed air. 😅
 
foggy said:
At current levels it won't, electricity demand (as oppposed to oil and gas) is expected to increase massively over the next decade or so in the UK. We've been enjoying a long period now of reduction in demand despite increasing population, thanks to improvements in energy efficiency of household appliances. But going forwards we will need to generate a lot more electrical power, which is why it is essential we invest in more production and stop NIMBYism from preventing this. The effective ban on onshore wind coming to an end would be a good start.
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I googled it after I posted and came across this, it's in the US but surely the principles are the same?

 
HighfieldSeasider said:
I googled it after I posted and came across this, it's in the US but surely the principles are the same?

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I tend to agree that at the moment we are scant on details and I believe the political willpower to modernise our infrastructure as needed, so perhaps we are heading towards a wake up call on this. It's one of the reasons I will vote for the party I think will best dedicate themselves to this and I encourage others to do the same. That being said, I've come across a lot of anti renewable, anti ev stuff. Some well intentioned, some not. I find the problems intensely solvable. I don't think ensuring the health of the planet and it's people needs to be profitable, but I happen to think it could save us money anyway, as we vastly underappreciate the cost of pollution and climate change to our health and economy.

Edit to add - I am also optimistic. We have come along way. Right now, at this very moment, 70% of the UK's energy is coming from renewables. Solar, wind and nuclear are powering our homes and restaurants and offices right now. It's easier in the summer of course, and we cant sustain this all year and the issues of intermittency and storage needs to be solved, NIMBYs will stand in the way of progress, the UK's continued failure at bringing in any major development on time and at cost. However, I don't think we could have imagined a day just a few years ago where nearly three quarters of our energy would be carbon free. And the support for green energy, at least at theoretical level, is strong across all the political spectrum.
 
We’ve transitioned from high powered petrol cars to now having 2 EV’s. I’m a total petrol head, but it’d be very hard to go back now. They are a joy to drive and quick.

I will though get myself another weekend sporty toy to look after.

We have a charger at home and have rarely needed to use public charging stations. My strong advice is never buy an EV outright, as technology and range are improving fast. It does not have to be expensive if you do your homework.

Also, if you need 2 EV’s, don’t get cars with the same range.
 
foggy said:
I tend to agree that at the moment we are scant on details and I believe the political willpower to modernise our infrastructure as needed, so perhaps we are heading towards a wake up call on this. It's one of the reasons I will vote for the party I think will best dedicate themselves to this and I encourage others to do the same. That being said, I've come across a lot of anti renewable, anti ev stuff. Some well intentioned, some not. I find the problems intensely solvable. I don't think ensuring the health of the planet and it's people needs to be profitable, but I happen to think it could save us money anyway, as we vastly underappreciate the cost of pollution and climate change to our health and economy.

Edit to add - I am also optimistic. We have come along way. Right now, at this very moment, 70% of the UK's energy is coming from renewables. Solar, wind and nuclear are powering our homes and restaurants and offices right now. It's easier in the summer of course, and we cant sustain this all year and the issues of intermittency and storage needs to be solved, NIMBYs will stand in the way of progress, the UK's continued failure at bringing in any major development on time and at cost. However, I don't think we could have imagined a day just a few years ago where nearly three quarters of our energy would be carbon free. And the support for green energy, at least at theoretical level, is strong across all the political spectrum.
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Do you have an engineering or scientific background?
 
Not bothered about having one any time soon, costs to replace batteries, range and charging issues, plus the loss of value as the car ages and the battery gets knackered, the cars are worthless almost once the battery has gone due to the replacement cost.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Do you have an engineering or scientific background?
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No it's my own opinion, based on reading a lot about it and listening to experts. I think I'm a good learner and researcher, which very much is my background. I also have opinions on, I don't know, football, despite not being a professional footballer.
 
I have an EV and a petrol.
Prefer the EV and of course yes I can charge at home. On long journeys I plan were my charge stop is and that’s when I eat and rest so no issue at all for me.
Every year the new models charge quicker and go further just like all inventions they get better and better over time.

Honestly the people who are dead against them are rarely the ones who have ever owned or driven one. I’m yet to meet in real life someone who is choosing to go from EV back to ICE cars
 
foggy said:
No it's my own opinion, based on reading a lot about it and listening to experts. I think I'm a good learner and researcher, which very much is my background. I also have opinions on, I don't know, football, despite not being a professional footballer.
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That's a no then, and your opinion is based on blind faith in whatever your chosen expert tells you, backed up no doubt by an unhealthy dose of environmental brainwashing at school.

FWIW, I do have somewhat of a scientific background, and whilst you listen to experts I question them, and I don't think that the problems with renewables and EV are anywhere near as "intensely solvable" as you think they are.
 
Lost Seasider said:
That's a no then, and your opinion is based on blind faith in whatever your chosen expert tells you, backed up no doubt by an unhealthy dose of environmental brainwashing at school.

FWIW, I do have somewhat of a scientific background, and whilst you listen to experts I question them, and I don't think that the problems with renewables and EV are anywhere near as "intensely solvable" as you think they are.
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Ok, good for you 👍
 
Elephants in the room :

Generator capacity. In part due to the Tories incapability of actually doing anything, we do not have close to the capacity we need by 2030. This could be solved if sustainable energy was given its head, but they aren't paying the Tories like the Carbon companies do.

Battery production, currently not enough rare earths available to mine to fulfil battery production needs.

Battery recycling. Germany is the world leader in this and only processed low thousands last year.

Charging for those without a drive, totally changes the economics. Needs a real push for chargers built into street lights, etc, at domestic rates.

Range. For many commuters they work well, for those of us living in isolated areas, they are a no no.

All solvable with a joined up plan, so I won't hold my breath.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Generator capacity. In part due to the Tories incapability of actually doing anything, we do not have close to the capacity we need by 2030. This could be solved if sustainable energy was given its head, but they aren't paying the Tories like the Carbon companies do.
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23 GW of wind and a further 14 GW of solar installed since 2010, compared to however many GW of coal/gas plants closed down, but why let facts get in the way of a good rant.
 
Lost Seasider said:
23 GW of wind and a further 14 GW of solar installed since 2010, compared to however many GW of coal/gas plants closed down, but why let facts get in the way of a good rant.
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Facts? You are talking facts? Sorry, thought you were a spin bot.

It isn't even close to enough. We need more power, not the same, hugely more.
 
Spoke to the boss of a large local building company the other week who travels up and down the country he's just got rid and gone back to petrol hated the vehicle and all the problems with charging.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Facts? You are talking facts? Sorry, thought you were a spin bot.

It isn't even close to enough. We need more power, not the same, hugely more.
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You're sounding like a spin-bot yourself.

How is 5.5 times increase since 2010 "the same"?

How is 60 GW in planning and construction not "hugely more"?
 
Biggest con going, the govt are playing to the gallery with EVs. Mining lithium is causing problems and disposing batteries will be a white elephant. The range isn't great and I can see electric bills soaring when they are the norm. Oh and you gave to generate electricity in the first place.
 
I think currently just under half of all electricity is generated by burning carbon based fuel…so as more people get EV that will go up, obviously all electric generated isn’t just used for cars though…hybrid cars seem more sensible to me..
 
Chunkylad said:
I have an EV and a petrol.
Prefer the EV and of course yes I can charge at home. On long journeys I plan were my charge stop is and that’s when I eat and rest so no issue at all for me.
Every year the new models charge quicker and go further just like all inventions they get better and better over time.

Honestly the people who are dead against them are rarely the ones who have ever owned or driven one. I’m yet to meet in real life someone who is choosing to go from EV back to ICE cars
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I've heard for and against from people that have driven them. I'll stick to my petrol car.
 
Electric cars are here to stay and anything to move away from fuel derived from oil is a no brainer. I like this battery swap system under trial in Scandinavia, it would appear a more efficient approach and would remove the waiting around time to fully charge an integral battery.
insideevs.com

NIO Launches Its First Battery Swap Station In Sweden

On November 17, NIO officially opened its first battery swap station in Sweden to support its expansion in Europe.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
 
Lost Seasider said:
You're sounding like a spin-bot yourself.

How is 5.5 times increase since 2010 "the same"?

How is 60 GW in planning and construction not "hugely more"?
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9GW in Scotland, nowt to do with the Tories

In planning??? 🤣 🤣 You including the nuclear that we may see in about 10 years time?, maybe, and massively over budget.

Onshore wind ban, reduced support for small solar, continued subsidies and tax breaks to oil which could have transformed sustainable power if used for such. Reduced blue skies research, eg tidal / wave.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
9GW in Scotland, nowt to do with the Tories

In planning??? 🤣 🤣 You including the nuclear that we may see in about 10 years time?, maybe, and massively over budget.

Onshore wind ban, reduced support for small solar, continued subsidies and tax breaks to oil which could have transformed sustainable power if used for such. Reduced blue skies research, eg tidal / wave.
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It's all on wiki, some of it's a few years off, some of it's being built now, you set the deadline as 2030, didn't you?

In any event, how is this plus closing down coal generation the Tories being in the pay of the carbon companies?
 
Lost Seasider said:
It's all on wiki, some of it's a few years off, some of it's being built now, you set the deadline as 2030, didn't you?

In any event, how is this plus closing down coal generation the Tories being in the pay of the carbon companies?
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Nice distraction, let's talk oil and new licences
 
Remember the government ramming diesels down our throat….. ‘better for the environment, more economical etc, etc - what a load of bullshit that turned out to be.
I mean, the idea of electric is great, but the mining for the lithium throws the ‘green’ ideology into doubt! I’ll stick with my petrol for the time being. Can’t see electric planes anytime soon and, as a country our pollution output isn’t too bad - China need a kick up the arse!
In some ways I’m rebelling against those just stop oil twats! As long as they keep climbing bridges and causes mayhem - the longer I’ll keep my petrol car! Justice would be served nicely if one of those twonks got run over by a Tesla!
 
Bennys_was_a_mob said:
Just seen these headlines on a politics program as I entered the brew room but never got to hear the end results.
So what's the general consensus here on "a view" ?
My wife is getting a EV next week swapping the 3.0l diesel Merc for a 50kw e2006, I'm not concerned about the swap as we will save a fortune on diesel costs and to charge the 2006 from 0 to 100% will cost us about £10 as we are still on a fixed deal till November 2024.
Range of about 170 miles may be a problem but it would mostly be used locally and if we were going any further we would probably use the van.
So to me it's a 👍 on this swap but would be interesting to know others views.
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duped dont know but plug in electric cars are not the future, certainly not in their current guise. Bearing in mind i am a bit eco mentalist, im designing an off grid house and advise on renewables, i cannot get my head around most electric cars, limited range, limited longevity. I said on a different thread a couple of days ago that electric cars feel a bit like Rabbit phones from the 90's or electric typewriters.

Can kind of understand the little runabouts being electric but two and a half or three ton SUV's dont make any sense at all, if what you want is a local runabout, an electric bike is a decent alternative, i rarely use my car nowadays. and my bike will do 50 to 60km on a charge that costs about 16p.

Most countries also dont have the generating capacity for mass electric car ownership, under the current network models, and most green generation cannot be just plugged into current network models without serious issues with reliability of supply. An average commute 35-40 miles uses about the same as the daily average electrical use for a two to three bed family home (the car about (9-10 kw, a typical house 7-8 kw per day), if you have to do regular long trips then it just doesnt stack up. I'm not sure your numbers stack up for costs.

I nearly bought a Fisker about 7 or 8 years ago which i think is the model for hybrids that makes the most sense, electric motors for propulsion with a smallish battery (60 mile range for local trips) and plug in capability with potential for domestic solar charging and a petrol engine for creating electricity, that directly feeds the engine and charges the batteries on a longer run. The car itself though was shiisser at Aston Martin money.
 
Can’t see it lasting to be honest - low mileage journeys , long time to charge ,expensive , replacement battery ?, the non ethical way the batteries are made -
 
The latest info regarding future EV's sound promising - solid state batteries is where the development seems to be going. No lithium needed (green issue sorted) much smaller and lighter in size (weight issue sorted) much quicker to charge (charging cost and time sorted) and much greater range.
This is development like the ICE has had in the last 200 years or so.
So maybe the EV does have a future but maybe not with the battery technology that we have today, having said that some of the more exclusive EV's now have ranges of well over 400 mile.
 
Bennys_was_a_mob said:
The latest info regarding future EV's sound promising - solid state batteries is where the development seems to be going. No lithium needed (green issue sorted) much smaller and lighter in size (weight issue sorted) much quicker to charge (charging cost and time sorted) and much greater range.
This is development like the ICE has had in the last 200 years or so.
So maybe the EV does have a future but maybe not with the battery technology that we have today, having said that some of the more exclusive EV's now have ranges of well over 400 mile.
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Oh look .... a Rainbow, lets go gather the gold.... 😂
 
tangerine.com said:
I've heard for and against from people that have driven them. I'll stick to my petrol car.
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That’s all fine.
If you’re Norwegian you can say with confidence that you’re generating electricity mainly through renewable and not pumping toxins into the air as you drive by schools. That’s a pretty good case for EV despite all the issues on Lithium etc.

In the UK it is still the same, no air toxins. Ask children with asthma how they feel?
Issue is do we generate enough electricity with renewables to sustain this.
 
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