Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
You don’t keep hold of the likes of Nuttall/Lubala/Howe/Sarkic and get rid of Bowler plain and simple.
Bowler
- Thread starter Micky Walsh
- Start date
TimperleyTangerine
Well-known member
26 appearances, 1566 minutes played, 3 assists 1 goal.
Dale has scope and we’ve not seen the best of him. CJ needs game time, but scoring ability and record of assists is far greater than Josh.
CJ got slaughtered on Saturday, but still delivered 2 crosses that Lavery somehow managed to miss. He’s had 28 appearances in 2 seasons, just 5 this season with 191 game time. For comparison purposes, he scored 5 and had 3 assists in 23 appearances last season.
Bowler looked anything but a star against a L2 team, same issues as previously.
BFC_53
Well-known member
I can think of five direct assists off the top of my head this season:
Vs Bristol City
Vs Millwall
Yates goal Vs Huddersfield
Both Yates and Anderson goals against Peterborough.
Splitting hairs really but I'm not sure where you're getting that info from. If you watch those goals they're all direct assists from Bowler. Also, his final ball has been improving. His through ball for Yates against Hudders was inch perfect, and against Peterborough he got his head up and played good balls into the box for those goals too.
CJ needs to be given time after injury, as does Dale. But I have my doubts as to whether they'll be as effective as Bowler. Neither are capable of scoring the goal that Bowler did against Fulham imo. Or providing the type of assist he provided in the Millwall game, because both relied on close ball control at pace. CJ has the pace but often not the close control, and Dale doesn't look like he has that kind of pace. Admittedly we haven't seem much of him though.
20togo
Well-known member
A statistic doesn't get me out of my seat. Bosom buddies Timps and Insy seem to be obsessed by them. What gets me out of my seat is the excitement of Bowler running at players and causing sheer panic to defenders. Some posters have had it in for Bowler pretty much from the outset.
Firstly, your stats are wrong.
1 against Bristol City
2 against Peterborough
1 against Huddersfield
Secondly, clubs and their recruitment department don't load up the top scorers and assisters and work their way down it. They'll look at the type of chances they create and whether their existing forwards feed off those chances. They'll also, shock horror, use their eyes to see a players influence on a game.
This isn't picking a Fantasy Football side this is picking a player to buy and integrate of real life players with their own strengths and characteristics.
20togo
Well-known member
...Oh and I don't need to recommend Bowler to Fulham. Clearly Fulham have already done their homework and again their scouts will be more knowledgeable and professional in what they see when they watch Bowler play. Perhaps though that makes my train of thought more in line with them than you are.
Insider
Well-known member
Despite putting words in my mouth you still haven't answered my question. Anyway I'm off on a scouting mission to Old Trafford shortly with a Villan. We are both in the Utd end of the ground.
I'll let you know what I think of Ronaldo when I get back or maybe you can tell me what I think now.
The sort of people who don't rate Andres Iniesta.
"But, but, he never got into double figures for goal and only once for assists"
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
I'll let you know what I think of Ronaldo when I get back or maybe you can tell me what I think now.
Would make a decent replacement for Bowler, but wages might be a bit of an issue.
TimperleyTangerine
Well-known member
No fantasy pal, I have shadowed a scout from a top club (albeit a good few years ago) and I’ve scored players that his club were interested in.
The stats I quoted are from recognised sites, but you’re really arguing over 1 assist.
You'll be aware that they don't just load up WhoScored then.
unless it was so long ago so as to be before the huge, huge influx of different kinds of indepth analytics used to assess players.And it may only be one league goal, but it shows how you are judging him. If you'd be watching you wouldn't be so reliant on stats sites.
Not all assists are equal, either.
tangerine_neil
Well-known member
This. ^
It’s what other Championship clubs’ would do.
Why should we be any different?
Insider
Well-known member
20s. You really are a dinosaur. Check the football staff lists and see how many analysts are employed supplying all that information you are so dismissive of.
TANGERINETOWERPOWER
Well-known member
Not long since he was top dribbler in the 4 divisions...there's none so blind as those who cannot see
20togo
Well-known member
errr.... but that wasn't my point was it. I know stats are oft quoted. But I don't go to a game and count stats do I? Think that's what you do as you seem obsessedt by them. As I said, I go to games to watch players like Bowler get me out of my seat with excitement. Not sure, that's got anything to do with being a dinosaur.
TimperleyTangerine
Well-known member
To be fair Tango it was pre analytics, and I don’t refer to stats generally. I watch very closely and unfortunately the stats are exactly as I would expect, based on end product.You'll be aware that they don't just load up WhoScored then.
And it may only be one league goal, but it shows how you are judging him. If you'd be watching you wouldn't be so reliant on stats sites.
Not all assists are equal, either.
Josh gets me out of my seat, just like 20’s. It’s been great to see his recent all-round improvement and I hope we keep him.
The above is about CJ, the below is about Bowler.
Strange how one is being criticised and one being given an impassioned defence. CJ's were at a lower level too. And also shows why the inaccuracy of your stats is worth highlighting.
Albert Ross
Well-known member
I don’t think we are actually “ keeping hold” of Nuttall etc. They are under contract and if nobody wants them
TimperleyTangerine
Well-known member
You’ve gone off the deep end 20’s, suggest you re-read the posts. I don’t want him to leave, I’ve commented that he gets me off my seat and that he’s exciting to watch. I’ve also said he frustrating, but that he’s shown recent improvement in his all round game. What’s so bad about any of that?
As for your comment about Insider and me, it’s nonsense. I don’t often refer to stats, and Insider posts stats that whether you like it or not, are used by clubs & coaches. Players are tracked physically in-game (my youth team we use trackers). Every club maintains data on player impact e.g. assists. I’m afraid getting out of our seat and being excited isn’t part of the assessment.
Vince McLean
Well-known member
I like Bowler, he may not turn it on every game, and often neither the opposition nor himself knows what he's going to do next - that's great, anything that causes mayhem in the opponents defence is a good thing. Keshi and Josh provide the threats out wide. As for CJ, Demi and a few others - gotta ship them out and replace with better quality, otherwise we'll be back where we were last season.
TimperleyTangerine
Well-known member
Tango, I refer you to my last post to 20’s. I want the lad to stay and haven’t criticised him. All I’ve done is refer to end product, but that he’s improving.
20togo
Well-known member
I made no issue about stats as I know full well that clubs collate them. Pretty staggering that four clubs higher placed than us would be interested in a Bowler then when his stats are so bad. Why is that? Makes no sense using your logic.
And let's not try and deflect. You've been a critic of Bowler pretty much all season.
TimperleyTangerine
Well-known member
Because he has POTENTIAL to be better than he currently is - nothing we don’t know already. They are not buying a polished player and if they were, he’d be north of £10m like the lad at Forest or Gordon at Everton.
20togo
Well-known member
so if he has this potential why have you been so quick to criticise him every time. And I think I'm right in saying you [and/or Insy] think his best position is on the bench. Faith in his potential eh! I notice you started a thread defending CJ. Perhaps you prefer him to Bowler looking at your comments on both of them.
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TimperleyTangerine
Well-known member
Do me the courtesy of addressing the question I asked you - copied below for ease.
I don’t want him to leave, I’ve commented that he gets me off my seat and that he’s exciting to watch. I’ve also said he frustrating, but that he’s shown recent improvement in his all round game. What’s so bad about any of that?
My biggest issue with Josh was his lack of work out of possession - Critch referred to it, albeit not directly and that adjustments had been made. We saw at Huddersfield a much more complete contribution and I was quick to praise him.
td53
Well-known member
I'll cry if we sell Bowler, especially now Keshi is out.
He's the one player (literally the only one fit) we have who can hurt the opposition almost any time he gets the ball.
Yeah, he's frustrating sometimes and he doesn't defend so well but then tricky Dickie rarely skins three or four players and can't run faster than a mobility scooter on the last of its batteries.
Keep.
He's the one player (literally the only one fit) we have who can hurt the opposition almost any time he gets the ball.
Yeah, he's frustrating sometimes and he doesn't defend so well but then tricky Dickie rarely skins three or four players and can't run faster than a mobility scooter on the last of its batteries.
Keep.
20togo
Well-known member
As I've said, I've rightly always had the impression you've had a downer on Bowler. And to persistently just use stats to back up your case and even though they may be half accurate, proves my point. We all know, he's frustrating, we all know there's room for improvement, things to work on but I think most of us will make allowances for that because we know what a talent he is.
TimperleyTangerine
Well-known member
More nonsense, I have very rarely used stats in my posts. Today I have for Josh and CJ, the latter to demonstrate the harshness of the venom sent his way on Saturday. Feel free to look back through my posts to check the veracity of this response.
As for the stats, they are from an online site, repeated on all the others I looked at. Tell me the specifics of where they are even half-accurate.
If you want to bury your head and ignore his areas for improvement then fine. Offers to buy him don’t mean he doesn’t have those needs - the clubs won’t bury their heads - they are bidding on potential.
20togo
Well-known member
I pretty much stated there's always room for improvement so really don't get your last para. As for stats, well it's been established that he's had more than 3 assists this season, so yep they are inaccurate. Just for the record, CJ doesn't float my boat but i did comment that that thread title and some comment were rather poor.
And for the record, I've made no comment on any perceived valuation of Bowler. I;ve simply pointed out that four clubs higher placed than us are seemingly interested. It is intersting to note that Johnson at Forest, and last year at Lincoln on loan is considered a 20 million pound player yet Bowler is nowhere near that value. Are teams paying 20 mil for potential or is he the finished article. If so, he must have made remarkable strides this season.
Anyway, it's a monday and i'm out for the night now.
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TimperleyTangerine
Well-known member
You stated about improvement, so have I, but for some reason you jumped on me for criticising him. The stats I gave were league, as stated.
Anyway, seems after a silly long exchange we are somewhere near the same volume, if not same page.
voyeur
Well-known member
My thoughts are that Bowler and CJ both have weaknesses we all know about. CJ has been badly affected by injuries. He did look quick in the highlights I saw of the Hartlepool game, and did set up two very good chances, as well as miss a couple.
The key difference I think is that Bowler has been giving championship sides a tough time, and impressing their recruitment teams. CJ has yet to prove he can do that. Maybe some sub appearances this month might show that he can but he probably needs to go on loan to L1 to get back up to speed. If he can play in Yates and Lavery like he did twice in Saturday then maybe he will prove useful, but Saturday was L2 opposition.
The key difference I think is that Bowler has been giving championship sides a tough time, and impressing their recruitment teams. CJ has yet to prove he can do that. Maybe some sub appearances this month might show that he can but he probably needs to go on loan to L1 to get back up to speed. If he can play in Yates and Lavery like he did twice in Saturday then maybe he will prove useful, but Saturday was L2 opposition.
Insider
Well-known member
HT here at OT. For the record on current form I wouldn't swap Bowler for Rashford and the player I came to scout isn't playing.
Also for the record I'd keep Bowler unless we got a silly money offer. I simply pointed out before his strengths and weaknesses and currently the latter outweigh the former. He certainly gets me out if my seat both ways. As for the stats thread I just post them for interest. I don't prepare them. Feel free to ignore them.
Also for the record I'd keep Bowler unless we got a silly money offer. I simply pointed out before his strengths and weaknesses and currently the latter outweigh the former. He certainly gets me out if my seat both ways. As for the stats thread I just post them for interest. I don't prepare them. Feel free to ignore them.
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hertfordseasider
Well-known member
I think we'll see Bowler & CJ playing now, since Anderson has been injured and to be honest, if I was a defender I'd be cracking my pants. If they can click they are going to be so exciting to watch. They both need a proper run in the team, no chopping and changing. We don't want to be without either of them!
1950`spoolfan
Well-known member
Don `t be discouraged from doing the stats I and am sure many others like to see them.
“All in all if we get offered anything over £500k I'd let him go.” You must be joking! If top Championship clubs are after him surely he’s worth a lot more?
Adams Kebab
Well-known member
We won our next game
I am right here aren’t I? We beat Hull 1-0. I’m starting to think I’ve imagined it reading stuff on here.
Micky Walsh
Well-known member
Stats and assists blan blah, sheer nuisance value to the opposition defences is his great value, he can pull them apart and you cannot really plan for him too much. Funny to read all our scouting reports on here.
PdxTangerine
Well-known member
Jeez, they don't hang about up here do they. Charlie Adam was the best player in the championship and I don't remember anyone coming in for him until Tottenham/Liverpool in the prem season.
You wouldn't blame him wanting to go to Fulham though, could probably stick an extra 10k a week on his wage. With the money they've spent though it's 3-5mill or nothing and that's only if he forces our hand.
You wouldn't blame him wanting to go to Fulham though, could probably stick an extra 10k a week on his wage. With the money they've spent though it's 3-5mill or nothing and that's only if he forces our hand.
Adams Kebab
Well-known member
This is spot on.
I find it so strange the way Bowler is put down when he’s one of the most exciting players we’ve got and had in years.
We’ve had people saying Mitchell was better than him on here, we’ve got people talking about CJ on Saturday all to try and out Bowler down. Hamilton has had bad injuries but I can’t remember him having a good game since the start of last season and he’s missed crucial sitters this season. Please don’t compare him and Bowler it’s actually so disrespectful.
All this whilst 3 of the top 10 Clubs in our League are after him and opposition teams have doubled up on him in many games because of the threat he poses.
He gains us 50-60 yards in many games and occupies their defence regular. He’s our best attacking threat without a doubt.
Do people know that players don’t play well every week? He’s had a stop start career so far before us but the last month has produced. Without him we would be struggling. He’s still young.
He won the pen v Hull, does that not count for stat man as an assist
Adams Kebab
Well-known member
Stats are useful but I prefer my eyes.
Luke Garbutt probably completed 90% of his passes on Saturday but all probably backwards, so useless stat.
If you would take £500,000 for Bowler I’m baffled. Who would we replace him with? Oh Nathan Shaw yeh
Insider
Well-known member
Unfortunately Winkey's injured.
The football World use stats. Utd signed Ronaldonbecause he scores lots of goals not just because he's got a nice haircut.
But like you I prefer to use my eyes without blinkers on. I'd probably be picking Bowler every week but that doesn't mean I can't see his weaknesses..And no we don't have a replacement.
The football World use stats. Utd signed Ronaldonbecause he scores lots of goals not just because he's got a nice haircut.
But like you I prefer to use my eyes without blinkers on. I'd probably be picking Bowler every week but that doesn't mean I can't see his weaknesses..And no we don't have a replacement.
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straightatthewall
Well-known member
Pretty simple really.
We need the right bid.
We need a replacement in mind and ready to come in.
If both elements work for us then the business of football dictates that we sell.
We need the right bid.
We need a replacement in mind and ready to come in.
If both elements work for us then the business of football dictates that we sell.
Henshman
Well-known member
Over my many years of supporting The Mighty Pool, I haven't seen that many players like Josh Bowler, who can run at defenders with pace. It's brilliant to watch, and teams having to double-up on him gives our other forwards more space, and our defence some respite. For that reason, unless clubs come in with an unrefusable offer, we mustn't sell him this transfer window. I can't quite work out a fee for Josh, but I think our defence wouldn't like to have to face him later this season.
SeasideKurt
Well-known member
If we're hoping CJ is good enough for this level, we've messed up.
He seems a lovely lad, with lightening pace but the rest of his play isn't good enough.
Adams Kebab
Well-known member
I’m not blinkered at all to Bowler. Can see his weaknesses, but can also see what he gives us and what the opposition think of him. Nobody else gives us what he can.
Of course the Football world uses stats but we’re in danger of it taking over. We’re a few months away from someone saying Keogh should start playing in midfield as he’s got the most completed passes in our squad.
Adams Kebab
Well-known member
28 appearances in two seasons, quality that. Hardly reliable.
Bowler has looked the star man against numerous Championship teams, no argument.
Bowler’s assists are also debatable. Millwall way should count and he won the pen v Hull. In the Championship. You can’t honestly think CJ provides a greater threat based on records? From different leagues??
You are so far off with this view.