Brexit means Brexit

ElBurroSinNombre said:
The simplest and quickest solution would be to rejoin the single market, but he is smart enough not to mention it at this point. The last thing he wants is another election where Brexit is the main political issue - i.e. 'Starmer the stealer trying to steal Brexit', 'Sir Beer Korma trying to curry favour with the EU' etc.
Starmer has to tread very carefully and is trying to look forwards, to make what we have work. It is a shitshow no doubt and some Tories may even think that losing the next election would be a good thing. We are in for a rough ride.
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Forgive me , I’m a bit confused re the single market... he says he is committed to not rejoining the single market ... are you suggesting this isn’t what he means?
 
Newholland said:
Forgive me , I’m a bit confused re the single market... he says he is committed to not rejoining the single market ... are you suggesting this isn’t what he means?
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My view is that he would rejoin the single market if he thought he could get away with it politically - that is the simplest way to remain outside the EU but solves many of the current problems at a stroke (NI, trade difficulties, labour shortage). But at the moment I guess that the calculation is that it is not worth reopening the Brexit debate over this because that will just invite another Brexit defined election. Give it a few years though.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
My view is that he would rejoin the single market if he thought he could get away with it politically - that is the simplest way to remain outside the EU but solves many of the current problems at a stroke (NI, trade difficulties, labour shortage). But at the moment I guess that the calculation is that it is not worth reopening the Brexit debate over this because that will just invite another Brexit defined election. Give it a few years though.
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Fair enough 👍
 
Newholland said:
Fair enough 👍
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And I would add, I would guess that there would be a referendum on rejoining the single market if we get to that point. It's about getting the type of Brexit that works for us, many can now see that what we have at the moment is very bad for the UK in many ways.
 
Malced said:
Sorry but that’s the typical negative drivel we see time and again. Leaving the EU is by all accounts, immensely complex and difficult. We were linked or should I say intertwined in many complex fundamental ways.
The technical fineries of unpicking that we’re never gonna be addressed in a surface level withdrawal agreement. That was obvious to anyone.
It’s quite apparent that the remainers will jump on any short term issues and blame Brexit and bemoan life outside the EU.
Whereas those supporting Brexit will see any issues as short term. It’s where we are in five/ten/twenty/thirty years that matters. Not where we are after 5, or 20 months.
There’s so much negotiation yet to do as we work with the EU to find mutually acceptable working level arrangements for the longer term. Our negotiation positions are typically tough because that’s how you have to be with the EU otherwise we won’t get a mutually acceptable arrangements. We’ve seen that already. Tough negotiation backed up by threats is the only thing that makes the EU listen and shift position.
It’s an extremely negative outlook you have for the future of UK business science - one I don’t share. But remainers have to find new things to keep moaning about when previous scare stories fall by the wayside. There’s too many to mention. Now we have the scare story that UK science will be ruined. I don’t buy it.
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www.theguardian.com

EU scraps 115 grants for UK scientists and academics amid Brexit row

Move follows dispute over Northern Ireland protocol, as one academic says UK is going down a ‘dark path’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Newholland said:
Firstly, I do not support the UK government tactics re NI .
However I find the EU response akin to politics of the playground.
2 wrongs don’t make a right.
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If we think that we can break treaties that we have signed, how can we complain when others do it?
The EU action is a graded response to the unlawful actions of our government, I don't like it but the alternative is to allow law breaking to go unpunished. The EU will also not want to get into agreements with the Uk if they think we are unreliable.
This is where they have lead us to.
It is clearly damaging to our national interest.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
If we think that we can break treaties that we have signed, how can we complain when others do it?
The EU action is a graded response to the unlawful actions of our government, I don't like it but the alternative is to allow law breaking to go unpunished. The EU will also not want to get into agreements with the Uk if they think we are unreliable.
This is where they have lead us to.
It is clearly damaging to our national interest.
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I agree with most of that... my principal point however remains... punishment dished out to your sector is unhelpful and unnecessary. The EU can refuse to accept any deal breaking in international law . Tit for tat politics is for children... just my opinion.
 
Newholland said:
I agree with most of that... my principal point however remains... punishment dished out to your sector is unhelpful and unnecessary. The EU can refuse to accept any deal breaking in international law . Tit for tat politics is for children... just my opinion.
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The EU are being forced to accept the UK law breaking - we are breaking the agreements we made on trade inside our own territories (and at the borders with the EU). The EU cannot really do nothing but they have no control over what happens inside the UK. Tit for tat is all that they can do, the alternative is an all out trade war which is even more damaging for both parties.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
The EU are being forced to accept the UK law breaking - we are breaking the agreements we made on trade inside our own territories (and at the borders with the EU). The EU cannot really do nothing but they have no control over what happens inside the UK. Tit for tat is all that they can do, the alternative is an all out trade war which is even more damaging for both parties.
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I do appreciate that and I think we’re agreed the UK government are at fault.Lets hope a change of UK governance, sooner rather than later, will return adults to the room.
 
It’s all posturing. You can choose to get hung up on something introduced as a means to apply pressure over the NI issue and see it as the ruination of UK science - or you can see it for what it is. As I’ve said, where we are today, especially as we’re negotiating with the EU on various post-Brexit arrangements, is not where we’ll be further down the line. You need to lift your head up and stop fretting about the here and now when we are in a state of flux with the EU.
It’s a good job our negotiatiors have a bit more steel about them when dealing with the EU who are notoriously hard to negotiate with. Stick to science please.
 
PS I’m sure an article penned by The Guardian is totally fair and balanced. Its the other end of the scale to the ERG.🤣🤣
 
Malced said:
It’s all posturing. You can choose to get hung up on something introduced as a means to apply pressure over the NI issue and see it as the ruination of UK science - or you can see it for what it is. As I’ve said, where we are today, especially as we’re negotiating with the EU on various post-Brexit arrangements, is not where we’ll be further down the line. You need to lift your head up and stop fretting about the here and now when we are in a state of flux with the EU.
It’s a good job our negotiatiors have a bit more steel about them when dealing with the EU who are notoriously hard to negotiate with. Stick to science please.
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And please can you stick to talking about something that you actually know something about as well.
I have never said that it is the ruination of UK science, but it is certainly damaging for UK science.
You initially dismissed this point.
I have since given you two bits of anecdotal evidence of the damage and two bits of evidence reported in the media that clearly show the damage being done.
And again you are completely dismissive.
Brexit is a failing policy for many reasons.
It is not showing steel to end up in a situation where both parties in a negotiation lose something, it is actually showing stupidity. And as has been pointed out time and time again, the UK actually loses the most because we are smaller than the EU. Research can continue inside the EU without the UK. In fact it seems that some of our talent has already jumped ship for the EU (read the article).
 
Seen several pics of Keith between 2🇬🇧🇬🇧 over recent months. Rumours he wears Union Jack Y- fronts and has just had "EU GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY" tattooed on his backside despite having voted 48 times against Brexit in parliament.
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1546131466857418752
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Was he standing on Everest or on the moon when he said that?

By the way, some of the projections about the UK's economic outlook post brexit are far fetched. The facts are that UK's economy grew by 0.8% in the first quarter of 2022. This was better than any other G7 economy except Canada. Since 2016, GDP has grown by 6.8%, compared with Spain (4.8%), Italy (4.4%) and Germany (2.8%).

It's likely that the UK as well as the US and Europe will enter recession in the coming months, but all the media hype about the UK suffering more than others is just unqualified hearsay. Nobody should be criticising our govt for being excluded from EU science collaborations or for its City banks being punished by the EU. It's Macron and Von der Leyen and her motley crew who deserve abuse. The EU's petty war games against the UK were never part of any Brexit agreement; they are just a desperate attempt to undermine the UK. And, even knowing this, people in this country would rather side with the EU against this country. I'm glad it's Ukraine and not UK who are fighting Russia for world freedom and democracy. We would have surrendered a long time ago.
 
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I'd like to see the figures you are quoting there.
Up to Q1 this year we are doing worse compared to the Euro zone as a whole;

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If the UK will not keep international agreements (like the NI protocol) how can you complain when others don't keep their agreements.

I'd much rather cooperate with our neighbours, as we were doing when we were in the EU. We are not in a war with them, they are our neighbours and allies against Russia. It is not a question of victory or surrender, it's a question of mutually beneficial behaviour. Calling people who are concerned about British science names doesn't change anything.

It's always someone else's fault. What is happening to UK science is very damaging.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I'd like to see the figures you are quoting there.
Up to Q1 this year we are doing worse compared to the Euro zone as a whole;

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication
www.ft.com www.ft.com

If the UK will not keep international agreements (like the NI protocol) how can you complain when others don't keep their agreements.

I'd much rather cooperate with our neighbours, as we were doing when we were in the EU. We are not in a war with them, they are our neighbours and allies against Russia. It is not a question of victory or surrender, it's a question of mutually beneficial behaviour. Calling people who are concerned about British science names doesn't change anything.

It's always someone else's fault. What is happening to UK science is very damaging.
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It's sad for UK science, but it's the EU that is going out of its way to exclude the UK, mainly as a totally unrelated punishment for what's happening in NI. For some reason you're trying to justify the EU's bizarre policy. Unfortunately it's the way the EU works whether it's in dispute with a member or a non-member. Witness it's feuds with Hungary, Poland, Switzerland. I'm pleased that you think the UK is not at war with the EU. Perhaps you could explain that to them, because the EU scientists want us on board and we want to be there. The only thing preventing that is that membership is being used as a weapon against us for no obvious reason.
 
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tommytwojags said:
It's sad for UK science, but it's the EU that is going out of its way to exclude the UK, mainly as a totally unrelated punishment for what's happening in NI. For some reason you're trying to justify the EU's bizarre policy. Unfortunately it's the way the EU works whether it's in dispute with a member or a non-member. Witness it's feuds with Hungary, Poland, Switzerland. I'm pleased that you think the UK is not at war with the EU. Perhaps you could explain that to them, because the EU scientists want us on boards and we want to be there. The only thing preventing that is that membership is being used as a weapon against us for no obvious reason.
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The alternative tactic that the EU could use is to start a trade war. Nobody wants this.
Do you think that the UK should be able to break agreements and laws at will?
What are other parties supposed to do when we break agreements that they signed in good faith?
All of this is incredibly damaging for our country and our reputation in the world.
We had a system before that worked very well. Now, as you concede, British science is being damaged by the effects of Brexit.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
The alternative tactic that the EU could use is to start a trade war. Nobody wants this.
Do you think that the UK should be able to break agreements and laws at will?
What are other parties supposed to do when we break agreements that they signed in good faith?
All of this is incredibly damaging for our country and our reputation in the world.
We had a system before that worked very well. Now, as you concede, British science is being damaged by the effects of Brexit.
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The EU is happy to start a trade war with the UK and is already saying as much. Note that all the threats of action are coming one way, whether it be a trade war, exclusion of the UK from science collaborations, blocking of City banks from EU finance transactions etc etc. Ultimately, British science should not suffer because of something unrelated and, ideally, the parties should reach some kind of compromise over NI to avoid this. However, it remains a fact that the potential amendment of the agreement was foreseen and drafted precisely for situations such as we presently have. UK legal experts seem to believe the UK's proposed actions will not breach the protocol, so who is in the wrong? There are plenty of posts on this thread condemning the UK, but not so many pointing the finger at UVDL and her cohort. You clearly have an interest in the science aspect of the dispute and it's a terrible shame that the scientists cannot be allowed to work together, but it's not the UK that is creating this problem.
 
tommytwojags said:
The EU is happy to start a trade war with the UK and is already saying as much. Note that all the threats of action are coming one way, whether it be a trade war, exclusion of the UK from science collaborations, blocking of City banks from EU finance transactions etc etc. Ultimately, British science should not suffer because of something unrelated and, ideally, the parties should reach some kind of compromise over NI to avoid this. However, it remains a fact that the potential amendment of the agreement was foreseen and drafted precisely for situations such as we presently have. UK legal experts seem to believe the UK's proposed actions will not breach the protocol, so who is in the wrong? There are plenty of posts on this thread condemning the UK, but not so many pointing the finger at UVDL and her cohort. You clearly have an interest in the science aspect of the dispute and it's a terrible shame that the scientists cannot be allowed to work together, but it's not the UK that is creating this problem.
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The simpler explanation is that a sociopathic career politician said he could deliver a workable brexit just so he could grab power.
The truth is there never was a workable brexit that didn't split Northern Ireland from the UK.
So he delivered a half arsed fudge, to the cheers and applause of those who'd been sold a golden brexit future.
Now he wants to unpick the mess because of the bizarre evidence it reveals regarding Brexit, simply NI is benefitting and Rest of the UK is not.

We should pity the sane members of the EU who have to watch this kafkaesque nonsense and are expected to somehow attempt to negotiate with a UK that holds a reality defying position.

If I was them I'd refuse to tolerate the UKs insane ramblings too.
 
Foolweary said:
The simpler explanation is that a sociopathic career politician said he could deliver a workable brexit just so he could grab power.
The truth is there never was a workable brexit that didn't split Northern Ireland from the UK.
So he delivered a half arsed fudge, to the cheers and applause of those who'd been sold a golden brexit future.
Now he wants to unpick the mess because of the bizarre evidence it reveals regarding Brexit, simply NI is benefitting and Rest of the UK is not.

We should pity the sane members of the EU who have to watch this kafkaesque nonsense and are expected to somehow attempt to negotiate with a UK that holds a reality defying position.

If I was them I'd refuse to tolerate the UKs insane ramblings too.
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I hope they do.
 
tommytwojags said:
The EU is happy to start a trade war with the UK and is already saying as much. Note that all the threats of action are coming one way, whether it be a trade war, exclusion of the UK from science collaborations, blocking of City banks from EU finance transactions etc etc. Ultimately, British science should not suffer because of something unrelated and, ideally, the parties should reach some kind of compromise over NI to avoid this. However, it remains a fact that the potential amendment of the agreement was foreseen and drafted precisely for situations such as we presently have. UK legal experts seem to believe the UK's proposed actions will not breach the protocol, so who is in the wrong? There are plenty of posts on this thread condemning the UK, but not so many pointing the finger at UVDL and her cohort. You clearly have an interest in the science aspect of the dispute and it's a terrible shame that the scientists cannot be allowed to work together, but it's not the UK that is creating this problem.
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" UK legal experts seem to believe the UK's proposed actions will not breach the protocol "
Who? No one with any credibility.
 
Trammo said:
Seen several pics of Keith between 2🇬🇧🇬🇧 over recent months. Rumours he wears Union Jack Y- fronts and has just had "EU GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY" tattooed on his backside despite having voted 48 times against Brexit in parliament.
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Bump.😜
 
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tommytwojags said:
It's sad for UK science, but it's the EU that is going out of its way to exclude the UK, mainly as a totally unrelated punishment for what's happening in NI. For some reason you're trying to justify the EU's bizarre policy. Unfortunately it's the way the EU works whether it's in dispute with a member or a non-member. Witness it's feuds with Hungary, Poland, Switzerland. I'm pleased that you think the UK is not at war with the EU. Perhaps you could explain that to them, because the EU scientists want us on board and we want to be there. The only thing preventing that is that membership is being used as a weapon against us for no obvious reason.
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So that's why the president of the Royal Society recently said that Brexit (not specifically the NI Protocol issue) has been a disaster for British Science, is it?
 
Brazil said:
So that's why the president of the Royal Society recently said that Brexit (not specifically the NI Protocol issue) has been a disaster for British Science, is it?
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The UK was a principal contributor to, and participant in, science collaborations within the EU. It has now been excluded and 115 grants from EU research programmes were terminated as retaliation for the UK's stance over Northern Ireland. 150 grants were approved for British applicants after the UK successfully negotiated associate membership of the £80bn Horizon Europe programme, but most will now be cancelled by Brussels. Ratification of the membership has been in abeyance because the UK has not implemented the Brexit trading arrangements agreed under the Northern Ireland protocol. So, the UK reached agreement with the EU over participation in Horizon and the EU pulled the plug. Brussels is using science to punish the UK and renage on its agreement. Read all about it in that right wing Tory rag, The Guardian.
 
Shandypants said:
Acting tough really doesn't cut the mustard on trade agreements, unless your threat carries weight. Trade deals are governed by the size of economies and ours is dwarfed by the EU it's as simple as that. The tories will bluster and act tough for the domestic market but that's as far as it goes. If acting tough is to start messing with northern ireland/good Friday agreement that will end up badly with the US pulling the rug and the potential for irish violence.
Meanwhile the business world is pulling its hair out, fisherman and farmers were shafted. Who are the winners?
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Jacob Rees-Mogg's Hedge Fund.
 
tommytwojags said:
The UK was a principal contributor to, and participant in, science collaborations within the EU. It has now been excluded and 115 grants from EU research programmes were terminated as retaliation for the UK's stance over Northern Ireland. 150 grants were approved for British applicants after the UK successfully negotiated associate membership of the £80bn Horizon Europe programme, but most will now be cancelled by Brussels. Ratification of the membership has been in abeyance because the UK has not implemented the Brexit trading arrangements agreed under the Northern Ireland protocol. So, the UK reached agreement with the EU over participation in Horizon and the EU pulled the plug. Brussels is using science to punish the UK and renage on its agreement. Read all about it in that right wing Tory rag, The Guardian.
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Renage on the agreement, that's rich, given what the UK Gov is going to do. However, back to my original question:is that why the president of the Royal Society recently said that Brexit has been a disaster for British Science?
 
Always tangerine said:
" UK legal experts seem to believe the UK's proposed actions will not breach the protocol "
Who? No one with any credibility.
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The govt's legal experts have held that the 'doctrine of necessity' provides a clear basis in international law to justify the non-performance of international obligations under certain exceptional and limited conditions. They claim this is established law accepted by the International Court of Justice and is reflected in the International Law Commission’s 2001 Articles on State Responsibility. The term ‘necessity’ is used in international law to lawfully justify situations where the only way a State can safeguard an essential interest is the non-performance of another international obligation.

Apart from the 'necessity' argument, art. 16 of the Protocol permits the UK to take safeguarding measures if the application of the Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade.

The Attorney General believes both of the above legally justify the UK's stance under last month's Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, although I expect she omitted to consult the AVFTT legal team before reaching that conclusion.
 
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Brazil said:
However, back to my original question:is that why the president of the Royal Society recently said that Brexit has been a disaster for British Science?
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Maybe he's lost his grant like so many others being punished by the EU. Or maybe he can't now justify taking his secretary to Paris for a science convention weekend.
 
tommytwojags said:
Maybe he's lost his grant like so many others being punished by the EU. Or maybe he can't now justify taking his secretary to Paris for a science convention weekend.
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Not interested in what he's doing at the weekends but I'm more interested in why the UK Gov is preparing to pull the plug on 80 billion programme for joint research projects across Europe.
 
tommytwojags said:
The govt's legal experts have held that the 'doctrine of necessity' provides a clear basis in international law to justify the non-performance of international obligations under certain exceptional and limited conditions. They claim this is established law accepted by the International Court of Justice and is reflected in the International Law Commission’s 2001 Articles on State Responsibility. The term ‘necessity’ is used in international law to lawfully justify situations where the only way a State can safeguard an essential interest is the non-performance of another international obligation.

Apart from the 'necessity' argument, art. 16 of the Protocol permits the UK to take safeguarding measures if the application of the Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade.

The Attorney General believes both of the above legally justify the UK's stance under last month's Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, although I expect she omitted to consult the AVFTT legal team before reaching that conclusion.
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So it's a question of interpretation. No surprise there. The basic issue, it seems to me, is that Johnson signed up to this agreement so he could claim to have got Brexit done, threw NI under a bus to do it then woke up to reality and the Unionist opposition. T May said that no British PM could sign up to what Johnson subsequently signed up to.
 
tommytwojags said:
The govt's legal experts have held that the 'doctrine of necessity' provides a clear basis in international law to justify the non-performance of international obligations under certain exceptional and limited conditions. They claim this is established law accepted by the International Court of Justice and is reflected in the International Law Commission’s 2001 Articles on State Responsibility. The term ‘necessity’ is used in international law to lawfully justify situations where the only way a State can safeguard an essential interest is the non-performance of another international obligation.

Apart from the 'necessity' argument, art. 16 of the Protocol permits the UK to take safeguarding measures if the application of the Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade.

The Attorney General believes both of the above legally justify the UK's stance under last month's Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, although I expect she omitted to consult the AVFTT legal team before reaching that conclusion.
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Glad you brought that up. The doctrine of necessity that is.

“The basis on which EXTRA constitutional actions which are designed to restore order or attain power on the pretext of stability”.

“That which is NOT LAWFUL is made lawful by necessity”

Used in dubious circumstances in

Pakistan 1954
Grenada 1985
Nigeria 2010
U.K. 2022.

As for article 16. “Serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties”

Economic difficulties? NI is doing quite well being allowed unfettered access to the EU single market.

Environmental difficulties? Please expand on what they might be.

Societal difficulties? You mean the DUP aren’t happy. To be honest that’s a bit like a drunk coming over and demanding your pint under “the doctrine of necessity” ie if you don’t give it to him it’ll all kick off.

“Clutching at straws” springs to mind.

Edit to add: the Attorney General in question was Suella Braverman. Who seems to be a bit conflicted?
 
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Brazil said:
So it's a question of interpretation. No surprise there. The basic issue, it seems to me, is that Johnson signed up to this agreement so he could claim to have got Brexit done, threw NI under a bus to do it then woke up to reality and the Unionist opposition. T May said that no British PM could sign up to what Johnson subsequently signed up to.
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That’s a fair description of the corner Johnson and his government painted the U.K. into.
 
Brazil said:
So it's a question of interpretation. No surprise there. The basic issue, it seems to me, is that Johnson signed up to this agreement so he could claim to have got Brexit done, threw NI under a bus to do it then woke up to reality and the Unionist opposition. T May said that no British PM could sign up to what Johnson subsequently signed up to.
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Maybe you should take your blinkers off and look at the facts. David Frost signed the UK up to participation in the EU's Horizon programme as part of the brexit negotiations. I'm not sure what part of the EU is excluding the UK from the programme to punish it you don't understand?
 
tommytwojags said:
Maybe you should take your blinkers off and look at the facts. David Frost signed the UK up to participation in the EU's Horizon programme as part of the brexit negotiations. I'm not sure what part of the EU is excluding the UK from the programme to punish it you don't understand?
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Frost says UK WILL scrap £15bn EU project to fund own research: 'Not in our interest!' | Science | News | Express.co.uk

LORD DAVID FOST has confirmed that the UK is prepared to scrap funding for the EU's Horizon Europe project if an agreement is not reached over the Northern Ireland Protocol.
www.express.co.uk www.express.co.uk

But here he’s saying we don’t want Horizon?

Are you saying the Express can’t be trusted?
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Glad you brought that up. The doctrine of necessity that is.

“The basis on which EXTRA constitutional actions which are designed to restore order or attain power on the pretext of stability”.

“That which is NOT LAWFUL is made lawful by necessity”

Used in dubious circumstances in

Pakistan 1954
Grenada 1985
Nigeria 2010
U.K. 2022.

As for article 16. “Serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties”

Economic difficulties? NI is doing quite well being allowed unfettered access to the EU single market.

Environmental difficulties? Please expand on what they might be.

Societal difficulties? You mean the DUP aren’t happy. To be honest that’s a bit like a drunk coming over and demanding your pint under “the doctrine of necessity” ie if you don’t give it to him it’ll all kick off.

“Clutching at straws” springs to mind.
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It's difficult to take seriously a post denying societal difficulties in a province split by the threat of sectarian violence and struggling through political breakdown with no working government, but thanks for cheering me up.
 
tommytwojags said:
Maybe you should take your blinkers off and look at the facts. David Frost signed the UK up to participation in the EU's Horizon programme as part of the brexit negotiations. I'm not sure what part of the EU is excluding the UK from the programme to punish it you don't understand?
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No blinkers here. The facts are that this Gov has realised it signed up to something it couldn't adhere to. That has a direct bearing on those Brexit negotiations you referred to. From the EU's point of view, it changes the game. Anyway, what about the 80 billion?
 
tommytwojags said:
It's difficult to take seriously a post denying societal difficulties in a province split by the threat of sectarian violence and struggling through political breakdown with no working government, but thanks for cheering me up.
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But it’s the DUP who voted against May’s plan that would’ve prevented a border between NI and GB.

And who supported Johnson when it was clear that was what he was going to do (even though he denied it i.e. he lied to them as well).

And who have thrown their toys out of the pram and refuse to form a government because the Republicans have secured a majority even though there’s still a balance of power.

How long are we going to allow them to hold us to ransom?

Like I said - it’s a bit like giving in to the pub bully who thinks everyone else owes him a living.
 
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