Brexit means Brexit

I think he is playing it down the middle. The UK voted for Brexit, that has to be respected. Keep on the side of democracy, win the election, then try and engage with the EU to ameliorate the disastrous economic impact, whilst staying outside. Trade agreements, movement agreements.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
I think he is playing it down the middle. The UK voted for Brexit, that has to be respected. Keep on the side of democracy, win the election, then try and engage with the EU to ameliorate the disastrous economic impact, whilst staying outside. Trade agreements, movement agreements.
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He sounds like a grown-up in the room on this subject.
A complete contrast to the UK government.
 
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Wizaard said:
Source for that statement?
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Well seeing as yourself and plenty more on here are still whinging about it 6 years on, plus the fact he voted 48 times to stop it. Sort of stands to reason doesn't it.
 
Shandypants said:
I'd have thought a party that campaigned and pledged to get back into the EU would stand a pretty good chance of winning an election. Its panning out pretty poorly.
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My prediction is that we will be back in the single market within 20 years. Too soon to suggest it and a lot of politics to be done yet. In ten years time the Brexit decision will be looked back upon with embarrassment by most British people.
 
He might possibly have jumped before he needed to on this (although it is about time he started giving us a clue about his plans).
It could be upto two and a half years before the next election, and who knows what will be happening by then?
I doubt reentry to the Common Market will be the defining issue by then, but it’s not impossible if things carry on like this.
I don’t think he was under huge pressure on this issue yet, could have waited a while at least until it was clear he wasn’t going to get an FPN?
 
Newholland said:
Labour get off the fence.... thoughts?
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It's a puzzle at the moment. I can only think that a full on return to the EU or even the single market, is seen as a vote loser- "raking up the past." In that context, he may be turning to 'sound economic management' as his vote winner...a sort of, "trust in me" sell. That said, it's hardly 'homes fit for heroes.'
 
I thought we were saving £350m a week..🤣
Don’t worry rushi will just keep printing money, the magic money tree is endless and never needs paying back, look at the covid, it cost billions , just keep borrowing and printing money 👍
 
The country will be left to keep going down hill a while longer yet in order to allow more and more people to personally experience some form of direct sufferance. Only then will the right time come to alter the country's direction back along a path which it benefits from rather than damages itself.
 
When a certain demographic has moved on to the celestial sunlit uplands in 30 years or less we may find that the population of the UK may want to join the EU or something like it.
Much better to work and live in harmony with your neighbours than to be in constant dispute with them.
Brexit reminds me of these stubborn people I read about that go into legal battles with their neighbours over a 5 inch strip of land, all consuming, so little to gain and financially damaging.
 
Labour was dead set against Brexit. Now they are for it.
If they were a party of principle they would stick to their beliefs. But they aren’t. They’ve considered what stance will play out better as a vote winner. They’ve concluded that’s by supporting Brexit. It’s all about votes over principles.
Whatever they do they’re never going to get back in power. The country he moved and doesn’t need this left leaning socialist bunch of self-hating woke weirdos.
Starmer is the best thing going for the Tory’s. He’s a wet lettuce with the charisma of a slug. At least you knew what Corbyn stood for.
Brexit was so damaging and dangerous according to Labour and it’s shadow cabinet, that surely they would be campaigning ti rejoin the EU. Thing is, they know most of their potential supporters in the north etc have no affinity with the EU and actually have pride, self-belief and the confidence to forge their own future. So surprise surprise they’ve decided to commit to staying outside of the EU. That’s sums up this lot quite well. They’re chasing votes. They’re making it up as they go along. They’re comprised of the hard left and the more centre-left. They struggle to find the sweet spot that appeals as a sensible workable policy proposition both within and outside their party. Best thing they could do is to split and leave the hard left lot to campaign for communism. Otherwise they will always fail to be a viable party of government for the rational and reasonable voting public who shy away from the extremes on both the right and the left.
 
Malced said:
Labour was dead set against Brexit. Now they are for it.
If they were a party of principle they would stick to their beliefs. But they aren’t. They’ve considered what stance will play out better as a vote winner. They’ve concluded that’s by supporting Brexit. It’s all about votes over principles.
Whatever they do they’re never going to get back in power. The country he moved and doesn’t need this left leaning socialist bunch of self-hating woke weirdos.
Starmer is the best thing going for the Tory’s. He’s a wet lettuce with the charisma of a slug. At least you knew what Corbyn stood for.
Brexit was so damaging and dangerous according to Labour and it’s shadow cabinet, that surely they would be campaigning ti rejoin the EU. Thing is, they know most of their potential supporters in the north etc have no affinity with the EU and actually have pride, self-belief and the confidence to forge their own future. So surprise surprise they’ve decided to commit to staying outside of the EU. That’s sums up this lot quite well. They’re chasing votes. They’re making it up as they go along. They’re comprised of the hard left and the more centre-left. They struggle to find the sweet spot that appeals as a sensible workable policy proposition both within and outside their party. Best thing they could do is to split and leave the hard left lot to campaign for communism. Otherwise they will always fail to be a viable party of government for the rational and reasonable voting public who shy away from the extremes on both the right and the left.
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Labour were against Brexit, but are facing the reality of it's gone and there's nothing to be gained in dividing the country, unlike the Tories who continue to prosper from division.

It's not a weakness to make the best of a bad lot and deal in the here and now.
 
Malced said:
Labour was dead set against Brexit. Now they are for it.
If they were a party of principle they would stick to their beliefs. But they aren’t. They’ve considered what stance will play out better as a vote winner. They’ve concluded that’s by supporting Brexit. It’s all about votes over principles.
Whatever they do they’re never going to get back in power. The country he moved and doesn’t need this left leaning socialist bunch of self-hating woke weirdos.
Starmer is the best thing going for the Tory’s. He’s a wet lettuce with the charisma of a slug. At least you knew what Corbyn stood for.
Brexit was so damaging and dangerous according to Labour and it’s shadow cabinet, that surely they would be campaigning ti rejoin the EU. Thing is, they know most of their potential supporters in the north etc have no affinity with the EU and actually have pride, self-belief and the confidence to forge their own future. So surprise surprise they’ve decided to commit to staying outside of the EU. That’s sums up this lot quite well. They’re chasing votes. They’re making it up as they go along. They’re comprised of the hard left and the more centre-left. They struggle to find the sweet spot that appeals as a sensible workable policy proposition both within and outside their party. Best thing they could do is to split and leave the hard left lot to campaign for communism. Otherwise they will always fail to be a viable party of government for the rational and reasonable voting public who shy away from the extremes on both the right and the left.
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More a question of accepting the will of the people and making the best of a bad lot.
The only way that we can sensibly work with Europe is through mutual cooperation and trust. We can find a way around the current problems, but is is unlikely that Johnson's government can because they don't really know what they want from Brexit. Or what they do want will never be acceptable to the EU (a free market but not adhering to EU standards and laws). Because of our refusal to abide by international law (in the NI Protocol) our inclusion in the EU funded Horizon science programme has been put on hold. This was one thing that we negotiated to stay in, in the 'oven ready' deal and European scientists generally want to collaborate with UK scientists. This development will cause a lot of damage to British science, one of the few things in which we lead Europe. It is an absolute disgrace and shows that Johnson doesn't care what he breaks. Fuck business and now fuck UK science.
The Conservatives would like to blame remainers for the mess that they have made but many people now realising that they were sold a crock of shit with Johnson's 'oven ready deal'. The most laughable accusation is Suella Bravaman blaming 'remainer civil servants' for the current shambles. The divisive tone is so destructive and unnecessary apart (of course) from being untrue.
 
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Malced said:
Labour was dead set against Brexit. Now they are for it.
If they were a party of principle they would stick to their beliefs. But they aren’t. They’ve considered what stance will play out better as a vote winner. They’ve concluded that’s by supporting Brexit. It’s all about votes over principles.
Whatever they do they’re never going to get back in power. The country he moved and doesn’t need this left leaning socialist bunch of self-hating woke weirdos.
Starmer is the best thing going for the Tory’s. He’s a wet lettuce with the charisma of a slug. At least you knew what Corbyn stood for.
Brexit was so damaging and dangerous according to Labour and it’s shadow cabinet, that surely they would be campaigning ti rejoin the EU. Thing is, they know most of their potential supporters in the north etc have no affinity with the EU and actually have pride, self-belief and the confidence to forge their own future. So surprise surprise they’ve decided to commit to staying outside of the EU. That’s sums up this lot quite well. They’re chasing votes. They’re making it up as they go along. They’re comprised of the hard left and the more centre-left. They struggle to find the sweet spot that appeals as a sensible workable policy proposition both within and outside their party. Best thing they could do is to split and leave the hard left lot to campaign for communism. Otherwise they will always fail to be a viable party of government for the rational and reasonable voting public who shy away from the extremes on both the right and the left.
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
More a question of accepting the will of the people and making the best of a bad lot.
The only way that we can sensibly work with Europe is through mutual cooperation and trust. We can find a way around the current problems, but is is unlikely that Johnson's government can because they don't really know what they want from Brexit. Or what they do want will never be acceptable to the EU (a free market but not adhering to EU standards and laws). Because of our refusal to abide by international law (in the NI Protocol) our inclusion in the EU funded Horizon science programme has been put on hold. This was one thing that we negotiated to stay in, in the 'oven ready' deal and European scientists generally want to collaborate with UK scientists. This development will cause a lot of damage to British science, one of the few things in which we lead Europe. It is an absolute disgrace and shows that Johnson doesn't care what he breaks. Fuck business and now fuck UK science.
The Conservatives would like to blame remainers for the mess that they have made but many people now realising that they were sold a crock of shit with Johnson's 'oven ready deal'. The most laughable accusation is Suella Bravaman blaming 'remainer civil servants' for the current shambles. The divisive tone is so destructive and unnecessary apart (of course) from being untrue.
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Sorry but that’s the typical negative drivel we see time and again. Leaving the EU is by all accounts, immensely complex and difficult. We were linked or should I say intertwined in many complex fundamental ways.
The technical fineries of unpicking that we’re never gonna be addressed in a surface level withdrawal agreement. That was obvious to anyone.
It’s quite apparent that the remainers will jump on any short term issues and blame Brexit and bemoan life outside the EU.
Whereas those supporting Brexit will see any issues as short term. It’s where we are in five/ten/twenty/thirty years that matters. Not where we are after 5, or 20 months.
There’s so much negotiation yet to do as we work with the EU to find mutually acceptable working level arrangements for the longer term. Our negotiation positions are typically tough because that’s how you have to be with the EU otherwise we won’t get a mutually acceptable arrangements. We’ve seen that already. Tough negotiation backed up by threats is the only thing that makes the EU listen and shift position.
It’s an extremely negative outlook you have for the future of UK business science - one I don’t share. But remainers have to find new things to keep moaning about when previous scare stories fall by the wayside. There’s too many to mention. Now we have the scare story that UK science will be ruined. I don’t buy it.
 
Malced said:
Sorry but that’s the typical negative drivel we see time and again. Leaving the EU is by all accounts, immensely complex and difficult. We were linked or should I say intertwined in many complex fundamental ways.
The technical fineries of unpicking that we’re never gonna be addressed in a surface level withdrawal agreement. That was obvious to anyone.
It’s quite apparent that the remainers will jump on any short term issues and blame Brexit and bemoan life outside the EU.
Whereas those supporting Brexit will see any issues as short term. It’s where we are in five/ten/twenty/thirty years that matters. Not where we are after 5, or 20 months.
There’s so much negotiation yet to do as we work with the EU to find mutually acceptable working level arrangements for the longer term. Our negotiation positions are typically tough because that’s how you have to be with the EU otherwise we won’t get a mutually acceptable arrangements. We’ve seen that already. Tough negotiation backed up by threats is the only thing that makes the EU listen and shift position.
It’s an extremely negative outlook you have for the future of UK business science - one I don’t share. But remainers have to find new things to keep moaning about when previous scare stories fall by the wayside. There’s too many to mention. Now we have the scare story that UK science will be ruined. I don’t buy it.
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It's UK science not 'business science'.
I work in the area, so have a little bit of insight. Of course we will continue but in all likelihood our best talent will leave, probably for the US (like they used to), because Brexit has made UK science less competitive. We will no longer be a scientific powerhouse that we were because Brexit has introduced obstacles in the way. We cannot fill roles that we were able to before because people from the EU don't want to come here as much as before and it is much more difficult to put them into posts, with the result that some posts are unfilled these days. This is not a good situation to be in.
Here is one anecdote that I heard recently. Brain samples being shipped from the Netherlands to the UK for experimentation here were left in a warehouse and thawed out because of Brexit paper work issues rendering them completely useless. It costs a lot of money to collect and keep these samples (tens to hundreds of thousands) and they also reasonably rare. Ultimately they had to be thrown away because of Brexit. Do you think that the research group in the Netherlands, to whom their sample collection is a very precious commodity, will want to collaborate with the UK scientists again? This isn't a scare story, this really happened. I am yet to come across anyone in the scientific community who thinks that Brexit is a good idea.
It's easy to talk in generalities 'I don't think this, I think that' when you are completely removed from the situation and it's effects. What is happening right now is bad for science and the Horizon hold is yet another blow and one caused by the law breaking of the UK government.
 
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Malced said:
Sorry but that’s the typical negative drivel we see time and again. Leaving the EU is by all accounts, immensely complex and difficult. We were linked or should I say intertwined in many complex fundamental ways.
The technical fineries of unpicking that we’re never gonna be addressed in a surface level withdrawal agreement. That was obvious to anyone.
It’s quite apparent that the remainers will jump on any short term issues and blame Brexit and bemoan life outside the EU.
Whereas those supporting Brexit will see any issues as short term. It’s where we are in five/ten/twenty/thirty years that matters. Not where we are after 5, or 20 months.
There’s so much negotiation yet to do as we work with the EU to find mutually acceptable working level arrangements for the longer term. Our negotiation positions are typically tough because that’s how you have to be with the EU otherwise we won’t get a mutually acceptable arrangements. We’ve seen that already. Tough negotiation backed up by threats is the only thing that makes the EU listen and shift position.
It’s an extremely negative outlook you have for the future of UK business science - one I don’t share. But remainers have to find new things to keep moaning about when previous scare stories fall by the wayside. There’s too many to mention. Now we have the scare story that UK science will be ruined. I don’t buy it.
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That is the biggest bit of back pedalling I have ever seen . Brexit was sold as a very simple process, easy agreements, single market but not in EU, science cooperation to continue, no paperwork at borders, no border in the Irish Sea.

It wasn't true and now you are claiming this was the plan all along?

We aren't all short memoried or stupid. I respect the decision made to leave, that's democracy, but to now come up with this utter twaddle that totally ignores the basic campaign and utterances of the Brexiteers insults the British Public's intelligence. Breaking treaties that you have signed will never lead to the other party trusting you. Own it. The Government appointed ONS has detailed how much it has cost us so far, the whole campaign was waged on how much its would save us.
 
Malced said:
Sorry but that’s the typical negative drivel we see time and again. Leaving the EU is by all accounts, immensely complex and difficult. We were linked or should I say intertwined in many complex fundamental ways.
The technical fineries of unpicking that we’re never gonna be addressed in a surface level withdrawal agreement. That was obvious to anyone.
It’s quite apparent that the remainers will jump on any short term issues and blame Brexit and bemoan life outside the EU.
Whereas those supporting Brexit will see any issues as short term. It’s where we are in five/ten/twenty/thirty years that matters. Not where we are after 5, or 20 months.
There’s so much negotiation yet to do as we work with the EU to find mutually acceptable working level arrangements for the longer term. Our negotiation positions are typically tough because that’s how you have to be with the EU otherwise we won’t get a mutually acceptable arrangements. We’ve seen that already. Tough negotiation backed up by threats is the only thing that makes the EU listen and shift position.
It’s an extremely negative outlook you have for the future of UK business science - one I don’t share. But remainers have to find new things to keep moaning about when previous scare stories fall by the wayside. There’s too many to mention. Now we have the scare story that UK science will be ruined. I don’t buy it.
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Acting tough really doesn't cut the mustard on trade agreements, unless your threat carries weight. Trade deals are governed by the size of economies and ours is dwarfed by the EU it's as simple as that. The tories will bluster and act tough for the domestic market but that's as far as it goes. If acting tough is to start messing with northern ireland/good Friday agreement that will end up badly with the US pulling the rug and the potential for irish violence.
Meanwhile the business world is pulling its hair out, fisherman and farmers were shafted. Who are the winners?
 
Wizaard said:
Labour were against Brexit, but are facing the reality of it's gone and there's nothing to be gained in dividing the country, unlike the Tories who continue to prosper from division.

It's not a weakness to make the best of a bad lot and deal in the here and now.
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By saying it's not a weakness to make the best of a bad lot, then I'd agree with you.
But are you also insinuating that Starmer isn't weak? If you are I'd have to strongly disagree with you on that one.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
That is the biggest bit of back pedalling I have ever seen . Brexit was sold as a very simple process, easy agreements, single market but not in EU, science cooperation to continue, no paperwork at borders, no border in the Irish Sea.

It wasn't true and now you are claiming this was the plan all along?

We aren't all short memoried or stupid. I respect the decision made to leave, that's democracy, but to now come up with this utter twaddle that totally ignores the basic campaign and utterances of the Brexiteers insults the British Public's intelligence. Breaking treaties that you have signed will never lead to the other party trusting you. Own it. The Government appointed ONS has detailed how much it has cost us so far, the whole campaign was waged on how much its would save us.
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Totally right.

'Vote Leave - you might possibly be better off in 30 years but you probably won't be'

Don't think that plastered on the side of a bus would have garnered many votes. :)
 
RUSTY_2_STANDS said:
By saying it's not a weakness to make the best of a bad lot, then I'd agree with you.
But are you also insinuating that Starmer isn't weak? If you are I'd have to strongly disagree with you on that one.
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I think hes portrayed by the Tory dominated media as weak as a deflection from the omnishambles that is Johnson.

His lawyer training means he always projects as considered and thoughtful. He doesn't therefore come across as passionate. Doesn't mean he isn't.
 
He also comes across as a wet lettuce who sits on the fence. Then comes down off the fence on whatever side he thinks
public opinion is. A man of no substance or convictions.
And it doesn't take the Tory press to portray that. It's plain for everyone to see.
So we have Johnson and Starmer. What an awful PM and Leader of Oppostion we're blessed with at the moment 😫
 
Shandypants said:
Acting tough really doesn't cut the mustard on trade agreements, unless your threat carries weight. Trade deals are governed by the size of economies and ours is dwarfed by the EU it's as simple as that. The tories will bluster and act tough for the domestic market but that's as far as it goes. If acting tough is to start messing with northern ireland/good Friday agreement that will end up badly with the US pulling the rug and the potential for irish violence.
Meanwhile the business world is pulling its hair out, fisherman and farmers were shafted. Who are the winners?
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If Johnson's messing starts to seriously put the Belfast Agreement in peril then Biden will tell him to stop.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
More a question of accepting the will of the people and making the best of a bad lot.
The only way that we can sensibly work with Europe is through mutual cooperation and trust. We can find a way around the current problems, but is is unlikely that Johnson's government can because they don't really know what they want from Brexit. Or what they do want will never be acceptable to the EU (a free market but not adhering to EU standards and laws). Because of our refusal to abide by international law (in the NI Protocol) our inclusion in the EU funded Horizon science programme has been put on hold. This was one thing that we negotiated to stay in, in the 'oven ready' deal and European scientists generally want to collaborate with UK scientists. This development will cause a lot of damage to British science, one of the few things in which we lead Europe. It is an absolute disgrace and shows that Johnson doesn't care what he breaks. Fuck business and now fuck UK science.
The Conservatives would like to blame remainers for the mess that they have made but many people now realising that they were sold a crock of shit with Johnson's 'oven ready deal'. The most laughable accusation is Suella Bravaman blaming 'remainer civil servants' for the current shambles. The divisive tone is so destructive and unnecessary apart (of course) from being untrue.
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Its more a question of accepting the will of a minority of the electorate and a substantial minority of the population,but hey ho i wont go there.

its not that Johnsons government dont know what they want, they cant agree what they want, but the likes of Johnson and Rees Mogg and the rest of the brexiters actually still want all the benefits of free trade with Europe but will not accept any of the responsibilities and obligations of those agreements, and in the main they still see themselves as having a winning hand in a negotiation where the UK has all those benefits and none of the obligations. There is a clear issue with the Northern ireland agreement and what Johnson claims which Johnson et al just refuse to accept. its delusional, but the truth is they will have to continually double down because if they dont then they have to admit they whole thing was a complete clusterfuck
 
Tangerinemoss said:
That is the biggest bit of back pedalling I have ever seen . Brexit was sold as a very simple process, easy agreements, single market but not in EU, science cooperation to continue, no paperwork at borders, no border in the Irish Sea.

It wasn't true and now you are claiming this was the plan all along?

We aren't all short memoried or stupid. I respect the decision made to leave, that's democracy, but to now come up with this utter twaddle that totally ignores the basic campaign and utterances of the Brexiteers insults the British Public's intelligence. Breaking treaties that you have signed will never lead to the other party trusting you. Own it. The Government appointed ONS has detailed how much it has cost us so far, the whole campaign was waged on how much its would save us.
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Nonsense. I can’t be responsible for the dimwits who didn’t look into Brexit beyond the strap lines or whatever was plastered on the side of a bus. For those more tuned in, there was much analysis, debate, scrutiny etc over a very long duration.
One thing very apparent was that unpicking a relationship of 40 years was going to be complex. The initial withdrawal/transitional agreements we reached were high level and merely the framework for the future relationship with the EU. It was common knowledge there would need to be many detailed mini-deals across sectors of all types. Now if for some reason (maybe you were busy over the two years this was all detailed in every news channel) your understanding of Brexit was limited to a poster or a strap line such as ‘oven-ready’ then that’s your fault not mine.
The whole campaign was waged on multiple hard and soft benefits not merely on what it would save us.
 
Malced said:
Nonsense. I can’t be responsible for the dimwits who didn’t look into Brexit beyond the strap lines or whatever was plastered on the side of a bus. For those more tuned in, there was much analysis, debate, scrutiny etc over a very long duration.
One thing very apparent was that unpicking a relationship of 40 years was going to be complex. The initial withdrawal/transitional agreements we reached were high level and merely the framework for the future relationship with the EU. It was common knowledge there would need to be many detailed mini-deals across sectors of all types. Now if for some reason (maybe you were busy over the two years this was all detailed in every news channel) your understanding of Brexit was limited to a poster or a strap line such as ‘oven-ready’ then that’s your fault not mine.
The whole campaign was waged on multiple hard and soft benefits not merely on what it would save us.
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Except that it was the 'oven ready Brexit' wot won it for Johnson.
 
Wizaard said:
I think hes portrayed by the Tory dominated media as weak as a deflection from the omnishambles that is Johnson.

His lawyer training means he always projects as considered and thoughtful. He doesn't therefore come across as passionate. Doesn't mean he isn't.
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We’ve heard this before -oh the media showed Corbyn in a bad light. His terrorist sympathising was misunderstood. Now it’s the media to blame for Starmer being as dull as dishwater. Well the Tory dominated media that is. 🤷‍♂️
The Tory’s don’t need to media to characterise Starmer. It’s plain for all to see. Rightly or wrongly, personality matters when you’re a leader and wanting to be PM. He has to make a connection with the public across a wide base. But his personality prevents him doing that. He also doesn’t state his position soon enough or at all. He sits on the fence to see which way the wind will blow. He ain’t gonna be PM at any time soon unless his has a personality transplant and grows a pair.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Except that it was the 'oven ready Brexit' wot won it for Johnson.
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If you recall, deals were indeed reached with the EU. He achieved what Therese May couldn’t and he forced the EU to budge despite the ‘clock is ticking’ and insults about us not eating cake.
 
Malced said:
If you recall, deals were indeed reached with the EU. He achieved what Therese May couldn’t and he forced the EU to budge despite the ‘clock is ticking’ and insults about us not eating cake.
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Yes I do recall. And it's those deals that he now wants to rewrite to his advantage and without EU agreement
 
Malced said:
Nonsense. I can’t be responsible for the dimwits who didn’t look into Brexit beyond the strap lines or whatever was plastered on the side of a bus. For those more tuned in, there was much analysis, debate, scrutiny etc over a very long duration.
One thing very apparent was that unpicking a relationship of 40 years was going to be complex. The initial withdrawal/transitional agreements we reached were high level and merely the framework for the future relationship with the EU. It was common knowledge there would need to be many detailed mini-deals across sectors of all types. Now if for some reason (maybe you were busy over the two years this was all detailed in every news channel) your understanding of Brexit was limited to a poster or a strap line such as ‘oven-ready’ then that’s your fault not mine.
The whole campaign was waged on multiple hard and soft benefits not merely on what it would save us.
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Repeating the same nonsense doesn't make it true. Also calling someone a dimwit because they don't agree with your view emphasises the weakness of your case. I read everything in the media from both sides, I have several friends who I totally respect who voted leave, and we discussed it many times, swapping sources. Not a single one ever spoke about it taking years to accrue any benefit, not a single speaker ever detailed what you seem to think everyone knew. My friends believed that Brexit meant the UK would be better off, as it would stay in the Free Trade area, as promised by so many speakers, and would have the freedom to make independent trade agreements. We wouldn't be paying into the EU, wouldn't have to abide by their political project, and would therefore prosper.

As a simple example, please lead me to any Brexiteer statement explaining how Northern Island could both Brexit and honour the Good Friday agreement, and I challenge you yet again to explain why the Government signed up to an agreement which it then decided to break. Lead me to any manifesto which said the UK would be much worse off for a long time, with the single exception of the barking mad JRM.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Repeating the same nonsense doesn't make it true. Also calling someone a dimwit because they don't agree with your view emphasises the weakness of your case. I read everything in the media from both sides, I have several friends who I totally respect who voted leave, and we discussed it many times, swapping sources. Not a single one ever spoke about it taking years to accrue any benefit, not a single speaker ever detailed what you seem to think everyone knew. My friends believed that Brexit meant the UK would be better off, as it would stay in the Free Trade area, as promised by so many speakers, and would have the freedom to make independent trade agreements. We wouldn't be paying into the EU, wouldn't have to abide by their political project, and would therefore prosper.

As a simple example, please lead me to any Brexiteer statement explaining how Northern Island could both Brexit and honour the Good Friday agreement, and I challenge you yet again to explain why the Government signed up to an agreement which it then decided to break. Lead me to any manifesto which said the UK would be much worse off for a long time, with the single exception of the barking mad JRM.
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By your own proclamations you reveal you actually knew a lot less about Brexit than you realised. That’s what ignorance is I suppose. I don’t mean that rudely. But you were clearly ignorant to the well publicised complexities of leaving.
Everything I’ve said about higher levels deals forming the framework for future smaller more detailed deals, to be progressed over time, was much spoken of and widely documented.
The success of Brexit will be measured over time as I’ve said. You may characterise it as much worse off for a long time. But you perhaps forget that you and your loved ones and friends were at the front of the world wide queue to receive their covid vaccines exactly because we could act on our own volition without the shackles of the EU. There are other early benefits too and the benefits will continue to build.

The Northern Ireland issue is again complex and it’s a moving feast. So you can talk emotively about breaking the law etc but we need to see how that plays out. Signing an agreement is one thing, but you don’t carry on with arrangements ad infinitum if the deal isn’t working and isn’t being implemented by the other party in the right spirit. Deals can be revisited. But if one party frustrates that it’s only reasonable to act resolutely. As I’ve said, the EU sit up and take note when we show we are willing to take action.
 
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Malced said:
By your own proclamations reveal you actually knew a lot less about Brexit than you realised. That’s what ignorance is I suppose. I don’t mean that rudely. But you were clearly ignorant to the well publicised complexities of leaving.
Everything I’ve said about higher levels deals forming the framework for future smaller more detailed deals, to be progressed over time, was much spoken of and widely documented.
The success of Brexit will be measured over time as I’ve said. You may characterise if as much worse off for a long time. But you perhaps forget that you and your loved ones and friends were at the front of the world wide queue to receive their covid vaccines exactly because we could act on our own volition without the shackles of the EU.

The Northern Ireland issue is again complex and it’s a moving feast. So you can talk emotively about breaking the law etc but we need to see how that plays out. Signing an agreement is one thing, but you don’t carry on with arrangements ad infinitum if the deal isn’t working and isn’t being implemented by the other party in the right spirit. Deals can be revisited. But if one party frustrates that it’s only reasonable to act resolutely. As I’ve said, the EU sit up and take note when we show we are willing to take action.
Click to expand...
Some revision of history there.

'It will be the easiest deal in history'

'£350 million to the NHS a week'

'Easier access to markets'

Just for starters. We were sold a pup and will be on the debit side for generations. There is no 'sunlit uplands' for decades.

If you're claiming that all this was clearly pointed out by Brexiteers before the referendum (which was advisory and not binding, but everyone seems to have forgotten that) then you're completely deluded.

It was pointed out, but dismissed as Project Fear. Turns out it was prescient.

As for Northern Ireland, it was us who wrote it, and us who want to scrap it unilaterally within 18 months, with the Minister responsible saying he never wrote it.
 
Malced said:
If you recall, deals were indeed reached with the EU. He achieved what Therese May couldn’t and he forced the EU to budge despite the ‘clock is ticking’ and insults about us not eating cake.
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Theresa May had a deal agreed with the EU that didn't put a 'border in the Irish Sea - Boris and the ERG rejected this deal. Both Theresa May and Boris said that no PM could agree a dealt that put a 'border between GB and NI'.

The deal that Boris finally agreed effectively put a border between GB and NI. The EU were gobsmacked when Boris agreed to that rather than the TM deal. Unsurprisingly Boris now wants to unpick this deal.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
It's UK science not 'business science'.
I work in the area, so have a little bit of insight. Of course we will continue but in all likelihood our best talent will leave, probably for the US (like they used to), because Brexit has made UK science less competitive. We will no longer be a scientific powerhouse that we were because Brexit has introduced obstacles in the way. We cannot fill roles that we were able to before because people from the EU don't want to come here as much as before and it is much more difficult to put them into posts, with the result that some posts are unfilled these days. This is not a good situation to be in.
Here is one anecdote that I heard recently. Brain samples being shipped from the Netherlands to the UK for experimentation here were left in a warehouse and thawed out because of Brexit paper work issues rendering them completely useless. It costs a lot of money to collect and keep these samples (tens to hundreds of thousands) and they also reasonably rare. Ultimately they had to be thrown away because of Brexit. Do you think that the research group in the Netherlands, to whom their sample collection is a very precious commodity, will want to collaborate with the UK scientists again? This isn't a scare story, this really happened. I am yet to come across anyone in the scientific community who thinks that Brexit is a good idea.
It's easy to talk in generalities 'I don't think this, I think that' when you are completely removed from the situation and it's effects. What is happening right now is bad for science and the Horizon hold is yet another blow and one caused by the law breaking of the UK government.
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Read an article re the UK science situation in The Times last Saturday, they termed it the new ‘brain drain’.
 
Malced said:
By your own proclamations you reveal you actually knew a lot less about Brexit than you realised. That’s what ignorance is I suppose. I don’t mean that rudely. But you were clearly ignorant to the well publicised complexities of leaving.
Everything I’ve said about higher levels deals forming the framework for future smaller more detailed deals, to be progressed over time, was much spoken of and widely documented.
The success of Brexit will be measured over time as I’ve said. You may characterise it as much worse off for a long time. But you perhaps forget that you and your loved ones and friends were at the front of the world wide queue to receive their covid vaccines exactly because we could act on our own volition without the shackles of the EU. There are other early benefits too and the benefits will continue to build.

The Northern Ireland issue is again complex and it’s a moving feast. So you can talk emotively about breaking the law etc but we need to see how that plays out. Signing an agreement is one thing, but you don’t carry on with arrangements ad infinitum if the deal isn’t working and isn’t being implemented by the other party in the right spirit. Deals can be revisited. But if one party frustrates that it’s only reasonable to act resolutely. As I’ve said, the EU sit up and take note when we show we are willing to take action.
Click to expand...
You still can see no further than ERG propaganda.

I was very aware of everything you say of which I was ignorant, that is why I voted to remain. Life is too short to go for 30 years of downturn, with the "possibility" that things will get better. Project Fear, as you and your cronies called it, was actually the truth which you have now acknowledged.

You literally could not make this up.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
You still can see no further than ERG propaganda.

I was very aware of everything you say of which I was ignorant, that is why I voted to remain. Life is too short to go for 30 years of downturn, with the "possibility" that things will get better. Project Fear, as you and your cronies called it, was actually the truth which you have now acknowledged.

You literally could not make this up.
Click to expand...

I don’t follow the ERG. Nothing I’ve said comes from them. It comes from mainstream media reporting the two sides to the debate. There were exaggerated claims on both sides. It’s not worth getting hung up on whichever exaggerations you choose to dislike.

No one is suggesting thirty years of downturn except the extremely biased or the eternal miseries.
 
Malced said:
I don’t follow the ERG. Nothing I’ve said comes from them. It comes from mainstream media reporting the two sides to the debate. There were exaggerated claims on both sides. It’s not worth getting hung up on whichever exaggerations you choose to dislike.

No one is suggesting thirty years of downturn except the extremely biased or the eternal miseries.
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No one apart from every financial pundit and even Jacob Rees Mogg.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
It's a puzzle at the moment. I can only think that a full on return to the EU or even the single market, is seen as a vote loser- "raking up the past." In that context, he may be turning to 'sound economic management' as his vote winner...a sort of, "trust in me" sell. That said, it's hardly 'homes fit for
Click to expand...
This is a monumental change in direction for the Labour leader, make no mistake. Some of his statements could well have used by staunch Brexit supporters. The Labour leader appears to me to be considered and meticulous in his methods, total opposite of BJ, which leads me to believe this isn’t just about winning back red wall votes.... surely many of those voters are already committed to a return... why risk potential loss of votes to committed EU return parties?
Has KS studied the Brexit deal, actually listened to the genuine grievances people have with the EU and decided he can make Brexit work for Britain?
 
Newholland said:
This is a monumental change in direction for the Labour leader, make no mistake. Some of his statements could well have used by staunch Brexit supporters. The Labour leader appears to me to be considered and meticulous in his methods, total opposite of BJ, which leads me to believe this isn’t just about winning back red wall votes.... surely many of those voters are already committed to a return... why risk potential loss of votes to committed EU return parties?
Has KS studied the Brexit deal, actually listened to the genuine grievances people have with the EU and decided he can make Brexit work for Britain?
Click to expand...
The simplest and quickest solution would be to rejoin the single market, but he is smart enough not to mention it at this point. The last thing he wants is another election where Brexit is the main political issue - i.e. 'Starmer the stealer trying to steal Brexit', 'Sir Beer Korma trying to curry favour with the EU' etc.
Starmer has to tread very carefully and is trying to look forwards, to make what we have work. It is a shitshow no doubt and some Tories may even think that losing the next election would be a good thing. We are in for a rough ride.
 
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