Compulsory Vaccinations a good idea or threat to civil liberties

T

TSSeasider

Well-known member
MrsTSS is a lecturer at a local university in one of the health fields.

Students have to have something ike 1000 hours placement (on the job) training over their course is their studies.

The vast majority of placements in the health care settings are now saying, no double vaccination - no placement.

She's only got one anti-vaxer who thinks it's her right not to have the vaccine. But interestingly they already need to have the Hep B vaccination before starting.

Interesting to see how it is we are introducing a mandate by stealth.

Plenty of human rights issues being thrown up.
 
TSSeasider said:
MrsTSS is a lecturer at a local university in one of the health fields.

Students have to have something ike 1000 hours placement (on the job) training over their course is their studies.

The vast majority of placements in the health care settings are now saying, no double vaccination - no placement.

She's only got one anti-vaxer who thinks it's her right not to have the vaccine. But interestingly they already need to have the Hep B vaccination before starting.

Interesting to see how it is we are introducing a mandate by stealth.

Plenty of human rights issues being thrown up.
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It isn't compulsory.

Taking an HGV driving test isn't compulsory but don't expect to get a job driving a lorry unless you take one.
 
I remember a similar thread last year. Someone made the point about people having responsibilities as well as rights, and that doesn't often get the right balance.

In the health field, isn't the first principle "first do no harm"? If so, I think anyone starting their career by putting people at risk just to exercise some idea of personal freedom are probably in the wrong type of job.

I'm not sure it's a mandate by stealth either. No vaccination - no placement isn't exactly subtle, is it? The students are at perfect "liberty" to go and do something else if they don't like the terms and conditions.
 
A slippery slope, get jabbed or lose your career.

I'm double jabbed by the way - oh and that's not stopping me having to get a negative test (£30) 3 days before flying back to the UK and a PCR (£43) 2 days after I return.

The Spanish just wanted evidence of double jab to get entry.

Someone's making money 🙄
 
Speaking with a neighbour earlier, he’s a care worker and has been told he has 2 weeks left before getting potted due to not wanting the vaccine, funny enough they keep asking him to write out his resignation which of course he won’t. That said he’s on extra shifts at the moment so I assume covid infections must be low at the moment but might be on the increase in 2 weeks. Personally for me it’s the blokes right to say he doesn’t want it without losing his job.
 
Life seems very normal out there in the real world, the world that you see and experience yourself, is the government obsession with control over our lives not seeming a bit odd to people yet?
If you want it have it, most people do, shouldn't be compulsory or used by the state to coerce or pressure people into things they don't want to do.
In the papers and on the news we are told daily of unvaccinated people who have died from covid, we are also told the vaccinated are almost garenteed to be safe, so let people make their own choice without threats to their livelihoods.
 
For patient facing staff it absolutely should be mandatory, if you can't have it for medical reasons you should be moved to non facing, if you just refuse with no reason you should be gone, it shouldn't even be a debate, if you insist than that's your choice and good luck in your new career whatever that may be.

There's no human rights issues at all, on the other end of the scale if you don't do your moving and handling training every couple of years you'll end up getting sacked, this is no different and obviously much more important, frontline staff have a million official hoops to jump through and this is just one more with potentially fatal consequences if not adhered to.

What if you can't be arsed taking obs because you feel it impedes your human rights? Utter nonsense.
 
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Scaramanga said:
Speaking with a neighbour earlier, he’s a care worker and has been told he has 2 weeks left before getting potted due to not wanting the vaccine, funny enough they keep asking him to write out his resignation which of course he won’t. That said he’s on extra shifts at the moment so I assume covid infections must be low at the moment but might be on the increase in 2 weeks. Personally for me it’s the blokes right to say he doesn’t want it without losing his job.
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You may feel differently if he was your care worker/your partner's/children's etc if they were medically vulnerable?
 
I can't believe how some just won't get the jab & they're creating this situation, by their obstinance. Unfortunately as some of the affected services will invariably lose some staff (care assistants & probably NHS staff, when they too make it compulsory) I suspect another U turn & probably a compromise, possibly only new starters need mandatory vaccinating.
 
Italy requiring all workers to show proof of Covid vaccination or they face suspension from work and pay.BBC News website reporting tonight.
 
We know that vaccinated people are spreading the virus which makes a mockery of the entire idea, particularly for people who have had COVID but are not vaccinated who are much less of a risk than the double jabbed.
 
France has suspended 3,000 health car workers without pay as they’re not vaccinated. We’re not alone in this.
 
You already had to have a Hep jab to work in the NHS, there has been no outrage about that.
You have to have a yellow fever jab to visit certain countries, there has been no outrage about that.
There is a good reason for this rule, it has been bought in to protect patients. People who have been vaccinated are much less likely to be contagious. And another side effect is that it also protects the vaxxed person so they will not (on average) spend weeks off work with Covid.
I can't understand why someone who works in health care would choose not to be vaccinated unless there were overriding medical reasons - the fact that some want to put their own rights above the rights of patients to be protected suggests that they are in the wrong profession. Nothing to see here.
 
gjr69 said:
No it isn't, it isn't anything like being compelled to have a state sanctioned jab to keep your job.
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So what's the difference between this and many 'state sanctioned' rules, the hep b jab, having to register to work as a nurse or midwife etc...
 
As it's not part of the conditions of employment it'll be interesting to see whether these people are classed as resigning, sacked, or made redundant.
 
We need to stop the NHS being overwhelmed so we’re threatening to release a load of staff who don’t want a vaccine they statistically don’t need.

It’s very strange there’s not a massive push on natural immunity from previous infection.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
So what's the difference between this and many 'state sanctioned' rules, the hep b jab, having to register to work as a nurse or midwife etc...
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I guess they knew about it before they took the job on, nobody drives an HGV and is then made to take the test when they have been in the job for years.
But I'm not an NHS person so concede I don't know the ins and outs of that organisation, I just don't want the rest of the working population to be compelled to have it.
 
gjr69 said:
I guess they knew about it before they took the job on, nobody drives an HGV and is then made to take the test when they have been in the job for years.
But I'm not an NHS person so concede I don't know the ins and outs of that organisation, I just don't want the rest of the working population to be compelled to have it.
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No one knew covid was coming along and there was a vaccination.

If another new disease that's avoidable with a jab comes along are you saying existing employees would not have to take it?

This is just another condition of the job surely?

Its no different than convicted sex pests not being allowed to work with kids. What about their rights in that case?
 
Adams Kebab said:
We need to stop the NHS being overwhelmed so we’re threatening to release a load of staff who don’t want a vaccine they statistically don’t need.

It’s very strange there’s not a massive push on natural immunity from previous infection.
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The rule is primarily about protecting patients from infection, just like many other measures and rules in a hospital environment.
 
Liberty (that is Civil liberty) within a structured society is not the same as a libertarian free-for-all. The philosopher John Stuart Mill, in his essay On Liberty, rejects the idea that this liberty is simply for the purpose of allowing selfish indifference. Rather, he argues that this liberal system will bring people to the good more effectively than physical or emotional coercion. That said, he falls short of recommending coercion of people for exercising the selfish indifference of self-harm (in this thread: a refusal to be vaccinated), because (he states), Governments should only punish a person for neglecting to fulfil a duty to others (or causing harm to others), not the vice that brought about the neglect. In modern parlance that comes across as: get ill from Covid because you didn't get vaccinated and it's your own stupid fault. But, infect others, who then become ill, and you will be punished.

It's easy enough to see that this is a foolhardy approach. Punishing someone after the fact for a wanton carelessness that can cause grave illness or death does nothing to help the people who become infected. Neither can it help to reform the individual who transmitted the infection. No, the balance between civil liberties (ie. permitted and controlled liberties) and natural freedoms requires a more fundamental set of principles as its foundation.

Here, we can look back 170 years prior to JS Mill, to the time of the Glorious Revolution and the birth of constitutional, Parliamentary democracy. At that time John Locke published his two treaties of Government, the 2nd of which outlines his ideas for the governance of a civilised society. Locke claims that civil society was created for the protection of property: here he is using the etymological root of "property," Latin proprius, or what is one's own, including oneself (cf. French propre). Thus, by "property" he means "life, liberty, and estate." In this state, individuals, "enjoy many conveniences, from the labour, assistance and society of others in the same community, as well as protection from its whole strength; he is to part also with as much of his natural liberty, in providing for himself, as the good, prosperity, and safety of the society shall require ;which is not only necessary, but just, since the other members of society do the like."

What all of this clarifies is that civil liberties are just that - liberties established in law by Governments for the good and protection of people with a society. As such, these are not personal, natural freedoms to be decided by individuals regardless of others in society. This confirms that compulsion (note: in the context of vaccination, this is being strictly limited), is not a contradiction of civil liberty, rather it is an expression of it.
 
Wizaard said:
No one knew covid was coming along and there was a vaccination.

If another new disease that's avoidable with a jab comes along are you saying existing employees would not have to take it?

This is just another condition of the job surely?

Its no different than convicted sex pests not being allowed to work with kids. What about their rights in that case?
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Even worse analogy than the HGV one, and it isn't a vaccination like MMR it appears to be more like a flu jab.
 
gjr69 said:
I guess they knew about it before they took the job on, nobody drives an HGV and is then made to take the test when they have been in the job for years.
But I'm not an NHS person so concede I don't know the ins and outs of that organisation, I just don't want the rest of the working population to be compelled to have it.
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They knew that they're primary responsibility was patient care, if a measure is introduced to reduce potential harm it's their duty to adhere.

I'd be very suspicious of anyone in a healthcare environment not getting the jab for non medical reasons.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
They knew that they're primary responsibility was patient care, if a measure is introduced to reduce potential harm it's their duty to adhere.

I'd be very suspicious of anyone in a healthcare environment not getting the jab for non medical reasons.
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Suspicious of what?
 
Malced said:
Suspicious of what?
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Because it is a demonstration that;
  • they have an increased risk of catching and spreading Covid to patients in their care
  • they have an increased risk of catching and spreading Covid to other members of staff
  • they don't really understand evidence based medicine despite working in it
  • they are hypocritically involved in recommending and administering treatments to others that they will not have themselves
  • because they are misguided and may try to spread misinformation to other people - not good when trying to communicate a consistent message from staff
I'm sure that all of us could think of a few more reasons if we wanted to.
 
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Lost Seasider said:
I think the key point is "condition of employment".
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many years ago i was offered a job really good pay but had to be clean shaven was part of the terms and conditions due to the job stripping out asbestos and having to wear a protective suit and face mask breathing apparatus.
my choice to take or not take the job
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
What else they've not done for personal reasons.
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So if someone has been a competent carer/health professional during their career and has not been a concern to management, does suspicion of nothing in particular have any relevance? Do they bath regularly? Do they clean their house? Do they beat their patients? Are they axe murderers?
Surely what’s key is whether refusing the vaccine should lead to loss of job.
This is a moral dilemma and a practical problem too.
I spoke to a carer yesterday who looks after disabled people. She heard the news on the radio and mention that carers etc would lose their job. She said ‘oh well - looks like I’ll be losing my job then.’ She went on to mention how it’s her body and how she doesn’t want to have it injected with the vaccine. I just listened.
She seems a lovely caring person and great at her job. Great with the disabled people. But she’s dead set against having the vaccine. She’s been great at her job for however many years yet now due to Covid changing the goalposts, suddenly she’s now worthy of her job if she isn’t jabbed.
I do appreciate the logic of mandating for health professionals but these are people with their own minds and values. Some will begrudgingly get the vaccine rather than lose their job. But others will leave the profession. Pragmatically this will cause a short to medium term staffing issue which in itself will be a risk to patient health and safety.
I am not certain the risk from unvaccinated staff has been evaluated against the risk of having even less staff in an already stretched setting. I’d perhaps give a period of transition (eg a year from now) for current staff to have the vaccine. I would make it a requirement for new recruits to have it from day one. With the new recruits they at least know what they’re getting into and can agree to take the job or not.
The transition period would help staff and managers plan for any workforce disruption. It would help staff make a career switch which may even be supported by their own employer eg switching to an admin role working at home. We can’t and shouldn’t demonise good professionals who have cared for people for years and years. They’ve not suddenly become bad staff overnight.
In the case of care home workers, many of them would be better off leaving the profession in any case. They’re undervalued. It’s a long hours culture often with overtime and nights being forced on them. They can easily move jobs and get paid at least the same for much much less responsibility. Being bullied into having a vaccine is from my perspective understandably the last straw for many. They should leave and then perhaps the shortage will force the industry to offer a decent wage.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Because it is a demonstration that;
  • they have an increased risk of catching and spreading Covid to patients in their care
  • they have an increased risk of catching and spreading Covid to other members of staff
  • they don't really understand evidence based medicine despite working in it
  • they are hypocritically involved in recommending and administering treatments to others that they will not have themselves
  • because they are misguided and may try to spread misinformation to other people - not good when trying to communicate a consistent message from staff
I'm sure that all of us could think of a few more reasons if we wanted to.
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It’s amazing how you can read Lytham’s mind.
 
Malced said:
It’s amazing how you can read Lytham’s mind.
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It's a message board, anyone can contribute if they want to, if you want to PM Lytham on the ills of eating mayonnaise please feel free to.
Why not try to make a counter argument to the points that I have made?
 
Malced said:
She seems a lovely caring person and great at her job. Great with the disabled people. But she’s dead set against having the vaccine.
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She may be lovely and great at the job(?)....but she may just kill the person she's looking after by not having the jab.
I wouldn't like to be in the room when she explains that to the family of the person who just died from Covid....

It may not happen.....but it's a risk factor....and that risk factor is cut by 85%+ if she's jabbed......

Sorry, if I had someone who required care and their carer said I don't want to get vacinated......And my family member was a high risk....
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
It's a message board, anyone can contribute if they want to, if you want to PM Lytham on the ills of eating mayonnaise please feel free to.
Why not try to make a counter argument to the points that I have made?
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Haha. It was Lytham who made the point about being suspicious of these staff. So I asked what the suspicion was. A fair question. He replied with something completely different to what you said. He said ‘what else they’ve NOT done for personal reasons.’
Your points are not about suspicion. I’ve no issues with what you’ve written. They’re valid points. I’ve actually said I think they should be vaccinated but I don’t agree with how they’re being demonised. They’re not bad people or bad staff all of a sudden. Many of them are far more caring and committed than you or anyone on here not working in care could ever be.
The goalposts have moved for these staff already in the profession. Many of those reticent will be female and will be thinking about having children etc. It might not be supported by current evidence that the vaccine would be any risk to pregnancy or fertility, but standing in their shoes I can appreciate why a female would be overly-cautious about protecting their own body. Government health advice does change as we learn and we’ve seen this in the past. It’s perhaps a little strange and hypocritical that many on here don’t trust or believe the government with most things but they have blind faith when it comes to Covid.
It also is a bit hypocritical to take such a stance when no one took the same stance over seasonal flu jabs.
Many of the folk not wanting the jab will be from ethnic minorities. They have less trust of the nhs due to historical reasons. This isn’t simple. Forcing them out of their jobs is fine if absolutely necessary but I’m not convinced it is, or that it’s being done in a suitable/safe timescale.
By the way, the government doesn’t engender trust when they rely on the JCVI to set the vaccination policy yet disregard the JCVI when it suits.
The problem with the public is that it’s too easily brainwashed by the press into whatever narrative is pushed. Anyone with a view outside the narrative is demonised and seen as a crack pot or conspiracy theorist. Perhaps we should try and empathise and stand in the shoes of others who are from different backgrounds and have different perspectives. It’s too easy to let ourself be divided by bigotry and to point fingers and demonise.
 
Malced said:
Haha. It was Lytham who made the point about being suspicious of these staff. So I asked what the suspicion was. A fair question. He replied with something completely different to what you said. He said ‘what else they’ve NOT done for personal reasons.’
Your points are not about suspicion. I’ve no issues with what you’ve written. They’re valid points. I’ve actually said I think they should be vaccinated but I don’t agree with how they’re being demonised. They’re not bad people or bad staff all of a sudden. Many of them are far more caring and committed than you or anyone on here not working in care could ever be.
The goalposts have moved for these staff already in the profession. Many of those reticent will be female and will be thinking about having children etc. It might not be supported by current evidence that the vaccine would be any risk to pregnancy or fertility, but standing in their shoes I can appreciate why a female would be overly-cautious about protecting their own body. Government health advice does change as we learn and we’ve seen this in the past. It’s perhaps a little strange and hypocritical that many on here don’t trust or believe the government with most things but they have blind faith when it comes to Covid.
It also is a bit hypocritical to take such a stance when no one took the same stance over seasonal flu jabs.
Many of the folk not wanting the jab will be from ethnic minorities. They have less trust of the nhs due to historical reasons. This isn’t simple. Forcing them out of their jobs is fine if absolutely necessary but I’m not convinced it is, or that it’s being done in a suitable/safe timescale.
By the way, the government doesn’t engender trust when they rely on the JCVI to set the vaccination policy yet disregard the JCVI when it suits.
The problem with the public is that it’s too easily brainwashed by the press into whatever narrative is pushed. Anyone with a view outside the narrative is demonised and seen as a crack pot or conspiracy theorist. Perhaps we should try and empathise and stand in the shoes of others who are from different backgrounds and have different perspectives. It’s too easy to let ourself be divided by bigotry and to point fingers and demonise.
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As someone who worked on the frontline in the community for 15 years I wouldn't be trusting of anyone who decided not to get the jab, it would concern me that if they value their own unproven 'hunch' about something designed for patient safety in this instance, what other occasions have they decided that they knew better? When you enter the NHS you follow the mandated guidance, that's it, there's no occasion whatsoever that your personal opinion should contravene guidelines, you are not as important as the patient, you're not only risking yourself and your patient but also your colleagues, your organisation and the service itself.

Your example may be a lovely woman, but if she didn't get the vaccine she would be putting herself before her patients, sob stories and number of years duty mean nothing at all. What is her opinion of PPE for example, does she wear it, how is this any different? It's not her decision to make.

The 'narrative' as you describe it is no more a 'narrative' than any other treatment, it's a massively tested and completely proven preventative measure to lessen the risk of serious illness. There is no 'narrative', there's evidence based proof. Emotive language like 'bullying' doesn't change any of that.
 
I can understand if it's made a requirement for new entrants into the profession but forcing it on existing workers imo reeks of discrimination.
why for example isn't it mandatory for nurses or ambulance staff?
what about religious beliefs?
It's either you all have to have it, or your choice, but surely you can't say X have to but not Y or Z.
 
Goldfinger said:
I can understand if it's made a requirement for new entrants into the profession but forcing it on existing workers imo reeks of discrimination.
why for example isn't it mandatory for nurses or ambulance staff?
what about religious beliefs?
It's either you all have to have it, or your choice, but surely you can't say X have to but not Y or Z.
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It should be mandatory for nurses and ambulance staff.

I am unaware of any religious beliefs involving needles or vaccines that would be aligned with frontline caring where administering to patients is a regular occurrence.
 
Interesting to see the vaccine nazis in full flow. If you don't get it you're putting everyone else at risk, is the cry. That applies to flu doesn't it, why hasn't the flu vaccine been compulsory for care home and NHS staff? I'm also seeing shit loads of double jabbed people get covid, it doesn't stop them passing it on either.
 
gjr69 said:
No it isn't, it isn't anything like being compelled to have a state sanctioned jab to keep your job.
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It's exactly like it...
You can't be a lorry driver without an HGV license - call it "state sanctioned" if you like to try to make it sound more menacing? Other people call it "the law".
You can't fly a plane without a pilot's license
You can't be a teacher/accountant/doctor etc etc (the list is endless) without the right legally acceptable qualifications...

I think what you're upset about for some reason is that the job situation relating to care workers is changing during YOUR lifetime...
Going back in history, all of the above examples were not requirements to do that particular job. Things change. Usually for very good public safety reasons...as in this case.
 
Shandypants said:
Interesting to see the vaccine nazis in full flow. If you don't get it you're putting everyone else at risk, is the cry. That applies to flu doesn't it, why hasn't the flu vaccine been compulsory for care home and NHS staff? I'm also seeing shit loads of double jabbed people get covid, it doesn't stop them passing it on either.
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It's called following the current "laws of the land" - introduced for perfectly valid public safety reasons. Personally, I trust the scientists/doctors etc who know far more about it than you or I to make decisions for valid reasons. I don't see the point of questioning it from a low knowledge base. Society changes. Laws change.
Not sure you're old enough but back in the day, plenty of drivers were not happy when the legal drink drive limit was introduced back in the 60s. There are not many sane people nowadays who would argue that was a bad thing.
 
BlackpoolWolves said:
It's called following the current "laws of the land" - introduced for perfectly valid public safety reasons. Personally, I trust the scientists/doctors etc who know far more about it than you or I to make decisions for valid reasons. I don't see the point of questioning it from a low knowledge base. Society changes. Laws change.
Not sure you're old enough but back in the day, plenty of drivers were not happy when the legal drink drive limit was introduced back in the 60s. There are not many sane people nowadays who would argue that was a bad thing.
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I'm double vaxxed. Does it stop transmission, does it stop you getting it. Next up booster jabs, someone is making a lot of dough.
 
BlackpoolWolves said:
It's exactly like it...
You can't be a lorry driver without an HGV license - call it "state sanctioned" if you like to try to make it sound more menacing? Other people call it "the law".
You can't fly a plane without a pilot's license
You can't be a teacher/accountant/doctor etc etc (the list is endless) without the right legally acceptable qualifications...

I think what you're upset about for some reason is that the job situation relating to care workers is changing during YOUR lifetime...
Going back in history, all of the above examples were not requirements to do that particular job. Things change. Usually for very good public safety reasons...as in this case.
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Yeah OK I'm sure you're right.
 
BlackpoolWolves said:
It's called following the current "laws of the land" - introduced for perfectly valid public safety reasons. Personally, I trust the scientists/doctors etc who know far more about it than you or I to make decisions for valid reasons. I don't see the point of questioning it from a low knowledge base. Society changes. Laws change.
Not sure you're old enough but back in the day, plenty of drivers were not happy when the legal drink drive limit was introduced back in the 60s. There are not many sane people nowadays who would argue that was a bad thing.
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So why do unqualified government ministers undermine the JCVI?
 
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