Criminal Defence Barristers

Blackpool_Rox said:
What are the rates they are on Mex ?
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Not being involved in the field I don’t know to be frank. But anecdotally a young barrister 3 years qualified, and after he/she has contributed to Chambers expenses, is supposed to be on about £12k pa. So not the “fat cat” lawyer beloved of the media.

When we set up my old firm back in 2005 we made a conscious decision which areas we didn’t want to be involved in. Criminal work was one of them so even back then (getting on for 20 years ago now) the signs were clear.

There’s a huge backlog of cases in the criminal justice system, partly because of Covid but also because many lawyers are leaving that sector to focus on other more remunerative areas. And youngsters generally aren’t interested in getting into it at all for the same reason. I’m told the whole system is at breaking point.

Either accused people are going to have to defend themselves (not what you’d call “an equality of arms”) or cases are going to be dismissed without a hearing at all (not fair on the victims of crimes). Either outcome is not satisfactory.
 
The barristers who I have met are very wealthy people, and for anyone who has tried to hire one to defend them, they certainly don't come cheap. Their huge charges can & do deter some individuals from taking their case to the crown court.
Why anyone would go through the several years of study / pupillage and toil they do to become a barrister, only then to quit because their salary (which they knew before going down that path) isn't high enough, is quite baffling.
 
585 = never give up said:
The barristers who I have met are very wealthy people, and for anyone who has tried to hire one to defend them, they certainly don't come cheap. Their huge charges can & do deter some individuals from taking their case to the crown court.
Why anyone would go through the several years of study / pupillage and toil they do to become a barrister, only then to quit because their salary (which they knew before going down that path) isn't high enough, is quite baffling.
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You need to look at this a bit more closely.
The fact is that the ones leaving the criminal justice sector are those undergoing pupillage and junior qualifieds as they cannot live on the fees from legal aid, and that then deters newcomers.
If you want to hire one privately, that is a different story and not the issue here.
 
PoolBorn said:
You need to look at this a bit more closely.
The fact is that the ones leaving the criminal justice sector are those undergoing pupillage and junior qualifieds as they cannot live on the fees from legal aid, and that then deters newcomers.
If you want to hire one privately, that is a different story and not the issue here.
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Thanks PB. However, it's not a group of people who I empathise with and was only paying passing attention to the post.
 
585 = never give up said:
The barristers who I have met are very wealthy people, and for anyone who has tried to hire one to defend them, they certainly don't come cheap. Their huge charges can & do deter some individuals from taking their case to the crown court.
Why anyone would go through the several years of study / pupillage and toil they do to become a barrister, only then to quit because their salary (which they knew before going down that path) isn't high enough, is quite baffling.
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Vast majority of criminal legal aid barristers dont work on private fees but on legal aid.

Most of those working in the sector are not wealthy people. 40 per cent leave and do something else in the first year.
 
You only have to read a couple of chapters of the Secret Barrister to get the flavour
My son is a law student and criminal fence work is the only sector I would actively discourage him getting involved in
Like Mex we cut criminal work from our services perhaps 20 years ago
Some make it pay but the perception I have is that's it's a slog and the junior bar bears the brunt
 
They are on about 100 a day less than your average plumber apparently.
Both worthy jobs but these criminal defence lawyers dont seem to be rewarded well.
That said they have been offered a 15% pay rise which flies in the face of what the rest of government workers will be getting.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
You only have to read a couple of chapters of the Secret Barrister to get the flavour
My son is a law student and criminal fence work is the only sector I would actively discourage him getting involved in
Like Mex we cut criminal work from our services perhaps 20 years ago
Some make it pay but the perception I have is that's it's a slog and the junior bar bears the brunt
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I think you are quite right to discourage him from criminal fence work Tim. Now criminal defence work may be another matter.😉
 
Lala said:
They are on about 100 a day less than your average plumber apparently.
Both worthy jobs but these criminal defence lawyers dont seem to be rewarded well.
That said they have been offered a 15% pay rise which flies in the face of what the rest of government workers will be getting.
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How do I become a plumber ?
 
Aside from your health your liberty is the next most important thing you have because it affects your ability to work provide your family with a home etc etc

These people are doing an incredibly important job for peanuts.
 
AngelBFC said:
Aside from your health your liberty is the next most important thing you have because it affects your ability to work provide your family with a home etc etc

These people are doing an incredibly important job for peanuts.
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If only they could get a free tree house. No strings attached, obviously.
 
My mate was a barista....and he was on £24k a year.......Maybe they should all join Starbucks!!!


About 2 years ago, I had to get a Barrister from Chambers in Preston for a commercial case and I got quoted £1,200 for the morning plus travel costs. If the case ran into the afternoon, I had to pay another £1,200 even if he was there for 10 minutes.......

Based on what a criminal Barrister gets, I should have punched the other guy and gone to criminal court ....I could have saved money!!!!
 
585 = never give up said:
The barristers who I have met are very wealthy people, and for anyone who has tried to hire one to defend them, they certainly don't come cheap. Their huge charges can & do deter some individuals from taking their case to the crown court.
Why anyone would go through the several years of study / pupillage and toil they do to become a barrister, only then to quit because their salary (which they knew before going down that path) isn't high enough, is quite baffling.
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Some build up their practice well and gradually become increase their fee rates and earn very good money. Others are not so fortunate and given the poor wages at the beginning are not able to ride out the early years and move out of the profession.

It’s a bit like footballers. Some progress and some don’t and it’s down to a combination of ability, reputation and to some extent connections.
 
Wilburrabbit said:
Some build up their practice well and gradually become increase their fee rates and earn very good money. Others are not so fortunate and given the poor wages at the beginning are not able to ride out the early years and move out of the profession.

It’s a bit like footballers. Some progress and some don’t and it’s down to a combination of ability, reputation and to some extent connections.
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You’re right so far as barristers who act privately for clients are concerned. The clients pay and the price is negotiated (or the client just pays what’s asked for if he wants a particularly sought after barrister).

This dispute is about clients who have been charged with criminal offences who rely on legal aid. There the fees are fixed by the state: no negotiation. And the fees have been whittled away in real terms over the last two decades.

Which is why criminal lawyers have turned, and will continue to turn, to practice areas other than crime. Carve out a niche that serves mostly the rich people. Make a reputation for yourself in that field (exactly as you say) and yes you can make a very good living.

But there are repercussions for wider society.
 
Lala said:
They are on about 100 a day less than your average plumber apparently.
Both worthy jobs but these criminal defence lawyers dont seem to be rewarded well.
That said they have been offered a 15% pay rise which flies in the face of what the rest of government workers will be getting.
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And train workers !
 
Mexboroseasider said:
You’re right so far as barristers who act privately for clients are concerned. The clients pay and the price is negotiated (or the client just pays what’s asked for if he wants a particularly sought after barrister).

This dispute is about clients who have been charged with criminal offences who rely on legal aid. There the fees are fixed by the state: no negotiation. And the fees have been whittled away in real terms over the last two decades.

Which is why criminal lawyers have turned, and will continue to turn, to practice areas other than crime. Carve out a niche that serves mostly the rich people. Make a reputation for yourself in that field (exactly as you say) and yes you can make a very good living.

But there are repercussions for wider society.
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Yes I agree and the amounts payable to Criminal Barristers are derisory. The protest is a just one.
 
Lala said:
They are on about 100 a day less than your average plumber apparently.
Both worthy jobs but these criminal defence lawyers dont seem to be rewarded well.
That said they have been offered a 15% pay rise which flies in the face of what the rest of government workers will be getting.
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This is a Government lie. It’s 15% in over 12 months time. The way they are structuring it it’s less than 9%. There hasn’t been a single penny increase since 1997. There’s no other public service that has had no pay increase for 25 years!
 
It is impossible to say how much a legal aid criminal defence barrister will get paid per day.

Their fees, as with criminal defence solicitors are calculated by a baffling system based on the type of case charged, the number of pages of evidence and the type of hearing (guilty plea, trial et cetera)

Some cases are particularly poorly paid and if they do a proper job they are likely to be paid less than the minimum hourly rate.

The main point of the protest is that legal aid rates not only have failed to go up but there were two substantial reductions a few years back.

One was reversed but the other is still in place so the legal aid rates are lower now than they were about 20 years ago.

As we all know the cost of living has gone up massively so in real terms most junior barristers in criminal legal aid are probably earning less than half they would have been 20 years ago- and that’s being generous

It is the same with criminal defence law for solicitors, the average age of a duty solicitor in the police station and magistrates court is probably double what it was when I started 30 years ago

In 10 years, without substantial investment people who rely on legal aid could struggle to get a solicitor or barrister

There are already substantial black holes in parts of the country

Successive governments have failed to tackle the problem and have simply kicked the can further down the road when they are not in power
 
Wilburrabbit said:
Some build up their practice well and gradually become increase their fee rates and earn very good money. Others are not so fortunate and given the poor wages at the beginning are not able to ride out the early years and move out of the profession.

It’s a bit like footballers. Some progress and some don’t and it’s down to a combination of ability, reputation and to some extent connections.
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No it’s not. All legal aid rates are based on fixed fees calculated in a fairly complex way. The only profitable way to run a case load is by volume It’s hard work. Read the secret barrister the justice system is in complete meltdown
 
Mexboroseasider said:
You’re right so far as barristers who act privately for clients are concerned. The clients pay and the price is negotiated (or the client just pays what’s asked for if he wants a particularly sought after barrister).

This dispute is about clients who have been charged with criminal offences who rely on legal aid. There the fees are fixed by the state: no negotiation. And the fees have been whittled away in real terms over the last two decades.

Which is why criminal lawyers have turned, and will continue to turn, to practice areas other than crime. Carve out a niche that serves mostly the rich people. Make a reputation for yourself in that field (exactly as you say) and yes you can make a very good living.

But there are repercussions for wider society.
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By way of analogy the civil legal aid rates paid are lower now than when I came into the profession 33 years ago

Notwithstanding that you can always rely on the Daily Mail to run a regular story about fat cat lawyers feeding off the public purse
 
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FlytoKavala said:
If you don't like it, get out. Lazy idol buggers.
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That's fine until we find there is no one left !

See Tigger's post above regarding the age demographic of duty solicitors

After studying and running up a substantial student loan what you expect is going to happen if you have a choice of undertaking criminal work often earning less than NMW or pursuing far more stable and more remunerative employment elsewhere ?

Junior doctors are threatening to strike over pay and they certainly earn significantly more than a barrister / solicitor undertaking criminal legal aid work
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
That's fine until we find there is no one left !

See Tigger's post above regarding the age demographic of duty solicitors

After studying and running up a substantial student loan what you expect is going to happen if you have a choice of undertaking criminal work often earning less than NMW or pursuing far more stable and more remunerative employment elsewhere ?

Junior doctors are threatening to strike over pay and they certainly earn significantly more than a barrister / solicitor undertaking criminal legal aid work
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I chose to work away from home, not because i wanted too but for the financial stability it gave my family. If the caps doesn't fit,don't wear it.
 
Tangerine Pip said:
No it’s not. All legal aid rates are based on fixed fees calculated in a fairly complex way. The only profitable way to run a case load is by volume It’s hard work. Read the secret barrister the justice system is in complete meltdown
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I know that Criminal Barrister rates are poor and the system has been broken for years. A lot of the work is done by very junior barristers and they don’t stay long before converting to civil or getting out completely. Others jump ship and move to the CPS.

It is not a new problem but has got gradually worse and there are human rights implications of course.
 
FlytoKavala said:
I chose to work away from home, not because i wanted too but for the financial stability it gave my family. If the caps doesn't fit,don't wear it.
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Surely it should be a wig not a cap !

The point is they have a right to strike to address the issues surrounding pay just like anyone else does

They are also leaving the criminal bar in droves for the very reasons you suggest

The problem is without them doing the job they do the criminal justice system grinds to a halt which will have a profound impact on our society in that cases will be delayed, criminals who should be facing justice will inevitably walk and those innocent will find themselves with inadequate or even no representation
 
I really can't understand why people choose professions and then complain about it. It's akin to becoming a carer thinking that you'll earn mega bucks.
 
As TAM says, The Secret Barrister gives you an idea as to why they're striking. It's not without precedent either as they went on strike a few years ago now as well. A good read and highly recommend.
 
FlytoKavala said:
I really can't understand why people choose professions and then complain about it. It's akin to becoming a carer thinking that you'll earn mega bucks.
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Criminal barristers versus Civil Barristers is chalk and cheese. One pays and the other doesn’t. You apply to chambers and hope to get in but then you have little say over what work the clerks give you initially.
 
They look greedy to me. The barrister on good morning Britain says that 15% is not enough for the conditions they have to endure . What are these terrible conditions these rich people have to endure. Is it because they have to come across criminals that most are committing their crimes because they have lost their jobs or are so poorly paid they have to go to food banks. Or is it because their paperwork is a bit heavy. Why 15% plus ? 9% is the inflation rate and if there was a problem with Legal Aid ,should they not have gone on strike earlier.
 
WIZARD OF TANGERINE said:
They look greedy to me. The barrister on good morning Britain says that 15% is not enough for the conditions they have to endure . What are these terrible conditions these rich people have to endure. Is it because they have to come across criminals that most are committing their crimes because they have lost their jobs or are so poorly paid they have to go to food banks. Or is it because their paperwork is a bit heavy. Why 15% plus ? 9% is the inflation rate and if there was a problem with Legal Aid ,should they not have gone on strike earlier.
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Most are not rich mate. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were going to foodbanks.
 
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