Democracy

[Tangerinemoss]

I think many assume the back and fro between different political sides on this board is just so much froth, nothing really changes.

3 recent pieces of legislation have changed my view on this :

Election Act, need for photo ID to vote and changes to postal voting to make if more difficult

Reform of Electoral Commission, taking away it's independence and making it report to the Levelling Up Minister, Michael Gove

The Police Bill allowing bans for noisy demonstrations

If this was another country, the Press would be full of analysis claiming consolidation of power by the ruling party, reducing the chances of any opposition ever removing them from power. Photo ID is straight out of the Trump playbook to disenfranchise the poorest and those of no or infrequent, fixed abode. Michael Gove being the ultimate arbiter of elections is bonkers. The Police Bill will ban protests against any of this (all the anti Oyston marches could have been banned)

Any decent democratic Tories out there horrified by this power grab? And why are the press so quiet on all this?

 

[poolseasider]

The press are more interested in pieces of cake and Sharon Stone impersonators as all the papers have become is opinion rags.
News channels no different with only giving you one side of the argument this pandemic case in point.

Until we get PR in this country expect the Status Quo that's why I don't read national papers anymore and briefly watch the news.

 

[Dark_Side_of_the_Lune]

Democracy in this country is still in its infancy. It’s not even 100 years old and has certainly been failing for a large part of that time.

 

[Killingmesoftly]

Democracy …it’s funny how most democratically elected politicians in this country and the USA are absolutely minted. Just coincidence?…

 

[TSSeasider]

Stand for election on a mandate to repeal those laws and see if you can get elected. Worst that will happen is more people will be aware of it.

I've not actually read any of this legislation, but on the face of it, I'm not overly concerned about the voter ID stuff - nothing wrong with ensuring we are entitled to vote. I'm more concerned with the pitifully low levels of political literacy and turnout from people who could easily prove their entitlement.

On the protest law, I am so looking forward to a prosecution for a "noisy" demonstration. The courts will have a field day and I suspect it will be impossible to prosecute and therefore will be dead in the water.

If I was in charge, I'd have a moratorium on new laws until we'd gone through the others on the statute and decided if they were working.

 

[Matesrates]

Stand for election on a mandate to repeal those laws and see if you can get elected. Worst that will happen is more people will be aware of it.

I've not actually read any of this legislation, but on the have of it, I'm not overly concerned about the voter ID stuff - nothing wrong with ensuring we are entitled to vote. I'm not concerned with the pitifully low levels of political literacy and turnout from people who could easily price their entitlement.

On the protest law, I am so looking forward to a prosecution for a "noisy" demonstration. The courts will have a field day and I suspect it will be impossible to prosecute and therefore will be dead in the water.

If I was in charge, I'd have a moratorium on new laws until we'd gone through the others on the statute and decided if they were working.

I’m voting for you

 

[TSSeasider]

I’m voting for you

That should have said I'm more concerned with the pitifully low rates! I've edited the original post

I've been asked to stand for election perviously but I'm not convinced it's compatible with working for a charity.

As it stands I don't have to consider Party Politics when I'm doing my job; that would inevitably change if I was elected.

There's also the issue that the local electorate may not vote for me!!

 

[Matesrates]

That should have said I'm more concerned with the pitifully low rates! I've edited the original post

I've been asked to stand for election perviously but I'm not convinced it's compatible with working for a charity.

As it stands I don't have to consider Party Politics when I'm doing my job; that would inevitably change if I was elected.

There's also the issue that the local electorate may not vote for me!!

You won’t know unless you try

 

[Bloodtangerine]

I think many assume the back and fro between different political sides on this board is just so much froth, nothing really changes.

3 recent pieces of legislation have changed my view on this :

Election Act, need for photo ID to vote and changes to postal voting to make if more difficult

Reform of Electoral Commission, taking away it's independence and making it report to the Levelling Up Minister, Michael Gove

The Police Bill allowing bans for noisy demonstrations

If this was another country, the Press would be full of analysis claiming consolidation of power by the ruling party, reducing the chances of any opposition ever removing them from power. Photo ID is straight out of the Trump playbook to disenfranchise the poorest and those of no or infrequent, fixed abode. Michael Gove being the ultimate arbiter of elections is bonkers. The Police Bill will ban protests against any of this (all the anti Oyston marches could have been banned)

Any decent democratic Tories out there horrified by this power grab? And why are the press so quiet on all this?

Couldn’t give a toss tbh, just having a nice cold Lager and living my life

 

[Next Goal WIns]

That should have said I'm more concerned with the pitifully low rates! I've edited the original post

I've been asked to stand for election perviously but I'm not convinced it's compatible with working for a charity.

As it stands I don't have to consider Party Politics when I'm doing my job; that would inevitably change if I was elected.

There's also the issue that the local electorate may not vote for me!!

Please could you edit again and change "Perviously" to "previously" ? You may get more votes.

 

[Trammo]

Democracy and maths combine perfectly when 52% beats 48% in a referendum.

 

[Kip]

I think many assume the back and fro between different political sides on this board is just so much froth, nothing really changes.

3 recent pieces of legislation have changed my view on this :

Election Act, need for photo ID to vote and changes to postal voting to make if more difficult

Reform of Electoral Commission, taking away it's independence and making it report to the Levelling Up Minister, Michael Gove

The Police Bill allowing bans for noisy demonstrations

If this was another country, the Press would be full of analysis claiming consolidation of power by the ruling party, reducing the chances of any opposition ever removing them from power. Photo ID is straight out of the Trump playbook to disenfranchise the poorest and those of no or infrequent, fixed abode. Michael Gove being the ultimate arbiter of elections is bonkers. The Police Bill will ban protests against any of this (all the anti Oyston marches could have been banned)

Any decent democratic Tories out there horrified by this power grab? And why are the press so quiet on all this?

I don't buy into the idea that ethnic minorities can't get ID to vote or go abroad or go to a club or any number of everyday things that require identification. As for postal voting, if there's any slippage of democratic standards in this country then that's where it lies and it's only right that's the area that should be focused on retain standards. If able-bodied people can't be arsed to go outside once every 5 years then it's their commitment to democracy we should be questioning.

While the Electoral Commission should be at arm's length from the Government, unfortunately the ER proved both incompetent and politically biased to such an extent that reform became inevitable. A genuinely neutral ER shouldn't need oversight but the individuals involved were so arrogant and tone-deaf to the public mood that it's reasonable a complete overhaul was considered. You could apply that to a lot of this country's institutions actually.

As for demonstrations, I don't like the police deciding anything because they're not electorally accountable and often appear totally unsuited to making those sort of decisions. You can see that from Trafalgar Square to the East Stand. That said, the modern Extinction Rebellion style of protest differs from the traditional marching-with-banners and can have unpleasant real-world consequences for normal people caught up in the middle of it. I don't know the details of the bill but some sort of judicial decision would be better than Commander Whatever just making it up on the hoof.

Finally, if you're worried about a threat to the democracy then the reaction of a large part of the political/social elite of this country post-Brexit would presumably have given you ulcers. A literal refusal to abide by the results of a democratic process and all sorts of legal and political manoeuvres to attempt overturn the decision. Totally unforgivable and the biggest threat to democracy in this country in my lifetime. It also led directly to the appointment of Boris Johnson. Maybe some should reflect on that next time they go on their regular anti-BoJo rants.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Stand for election on a mandate to repeal those laws and see if you can get elected. Worst that will happen is more people will be aware of it.

I've not actually read any of this legislation, but on the face of it, I'm not overly concerned about the voter ID stuff - nothing wrong with ensuring we are entitled to vote. I'm more concerned with the pitifully low levels of political literacy and turnout from people who could easily prove their entitlement.

On the protest law, I am so looking forward to a prosecution for a "noisy" demonstration. The courts will have a field day and I suspect it will be impossible to prosecute and therefore will be dead in the water.

If I was in charge, I'd have a moratorium on new laws until we'd gone through the others on the statute and decided if they were working.

Making life more difficult for people to vote is an affront to democracy. The Tories know it and are doing it deliberately to reduce the Labour vote. They are anti-democratic and, as far as I am concerned, traitors to this country. They put their class and their business friends first. They deserve nothing but contempt.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

I don't buy into the idea that ethnic minorities can't get ID to vote or go abroad or go to a club or any number of everyday things that require identification. As for postal voting, if there's any slippage of democratic standards in this country then that's where it lies and it's only right that's the area that should be focused on retain standards. If able-bodied people can't be arsed to go outside once every 5 years then it's their commitment to democracy we should be questioning.

While the Electoral Commission should be at arm's length from the Government, unfortunately the ER proved both incompetent and politically biased to such an extent that reform became inevitable. A genuinely neutral ER shouldn't need oversight but the individuals involved were so arrogant and tone-deaf to the public mood that it's reasonable a complete overhaul was considered. You could apply that to a lot of this country's institutions actually.

As for demonstrations, I don't like the police deciding anything because they're not electively accountable and often appear totally unsuited to making those sort of decisions. You can see that from Trafalgar Square to the East Stand. That said, the modern Extinction Rebellion style of protest differs from the traditional marching-with-banners and can have unpleasant real-world consequences for normal people caught up in the middle of it. I don't know the details of the bill but some sort of judicial decision would be better than Commander Whatever just making it up on the hoof.

Finally, if you're worried about a threat to the democracy then the reaction of a large part of the political/social elite of this country post-Brexit would presumably have given you ulcers. A literal refusal to abide by the results of a democratic process and all sorts of legal and political manoeuvres to attempt overturn the decision. Totally unforgivable and the biggest threat to democracy in this country in my lifetime. It also led directly to the appointment of Boris Johnson. Maybe some should reflect on that next time they go on their regular anti-BoJo rants.

Interesting perspectives, although not sure what the relevance of ethnic minorities to voter ID is. To me it is a clear attempt to disenfranchise the homeless and rootless.

I actually agree about the Police, their powers seem out of all proportion to the right to demonstrate, and their bias against certain groups, including, of course, football fans, is a reality 40 years after the troubles of the 70's.

I can't argue with your final para, as a democratic remainer, the efforts of some to derail the decision, and arrogance that it could be ignored, or voters didn't understand, lead directly to Boris's Red Wall victory. However, I think those who voted for him out of principle, are the very people who will vote him out, again out of principle.

 

[Tangerinenick]

Think it’s smoke n mirrors bullshit. We need to address our rubbish turnouts and sort out the fat cat politicians. Apathy is rife and it suits one group.

 

[TSSeasider]

Making life more difficult for people to vote is an affront to democracy. The Tories know it and are doing it deliberately to reduce the Labour vote. They are ant-democratic and, as far as I am concerned, traitors to this country. They put their class and their business friends first. They deserve nothing but contempt.

Proving who you say you are isn't any more difficult than what you'd expect to do to open a bank account, pay your taxes etc.

There are relatively few people who effectively live off-grid to extent they can't prove who they say they are.

I don't think it's unreasonable.

If you wanted to balance it, you could do what lots of places do and make it a legal requirement to vote; stick a 're-open nominations' to allow for a protest.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Proving who you say you are isn't any more difficult than what you'd expect to do to open a bank account, pay your taxes etc.

There are relatively few people who effectively live off-grid to extent they can't prove who they say they are.

I don't think it's unreasonable.

If you wanted to balance it, you could do what lots of places do and make it a legal requirement to vote; stick a 're-open nominations' to allow for a protest.

Or, you could leave the electoral processes alone. They've worked for a very long time.

 

[Sussex]

Making life more difficult for people to vote is an affront to democracy. The Tories know it and are doing it deliberately to reduce the Labour vote. They are ant-democratic and, as far as I am concerned, traitors to this country. They put their class and their business friends first. They deserve nothing but contempt.

Typical left wing rubbish. Most European countries require voter ID. You need ID to attend Labour meetings, pick up parcels etc etc. There is no cost for those who do not have any ID. Your comments are the ones that deserve contempt.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Typical left wing rubbish. Most European countries require voter ID. You need ID to attend Labour meetings, pick up parcels etc etc. There is no cost for those who do not have any ID. Your comments are the ones that deserve contempt.

Tell me Sussex, have you been so vociferous in rejecting the results of the following elections: 1955, 1959, 1970, 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992, 2015, 2017, 2019?

 

[TSSeasider]

Or, you could leave the electoral me Janis alone. They've worked for a very long time.

But they haven't really have they?

Governance is continually under review; FPTP V PR, 18+ or 16+; centralisation v regions etc.

Outside of the 2016 referendum lots of parts of the country would consider 60% a decent turnout.

 

[GeminiPool]

Democracy is an utter nonsense when combined with universal suffrage.

Absolutely unsuitable people promising to bribe the masses using their own money at some unspecified future date.

Western democracy is primarily a vehicle for legitimising existing power structures. No real changes happen through the ballot box.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

But they haven't really have they?

Governance is continually under review; FPTP V PR, 18+ or 16+; centralisation v regions etc.

Outside of the 2016 referendum lots of parts of the country would consider 60% a decent turnout.

Me Janis! Fiddle, autocorrect is a real pisser!
Yes, they have left it alone. I'm not talking about how votes are scored (PR) or what the franchise is based on (16/18+). I'm talking about the voting mechanisms: the electoral role, the pencil, the private booth. These things are simple and have been shown to work. Now, if you're talking about governance, you may have something: checks at the count, checks in the polling stations, checks on the staff Manning the stations, checks on the postal votes...I'd be with you on those matters.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Democracy is an utter nonsense when combined with universal suffrage.

Absolutely unsuitable people promising to bribe the masses using their own money at some unspecified future date.

Western democracy is primarily a vehicle for legitimising existing power structures. No real changes happen through the ballot box.

Disagree massively. Lord knows, there's a lot about representative democracy that needs improving but never underestimate the power of a legitimate election. Parties can be thrown out of office at the stroke of a pencil. If you don't believe it, go to the party offices on election Day, then go to the count: candidates, agents, party workers, all nervous as hell about the outcome. Voters cause that and never forget it!

 

[Tangerinemoss]

Democracy is an utter nonsense when combined with universal suffrage.

Absolutely unsuitable people promising to bribe the masses using their own money at some unspecified future date.

Western democracy is primarily a vehicle for legitimising existing power structures. No real changes happen through the ballot box.

Not sure that's true. Whatever went wrong later, Blair Brown reduced National Debt, reduced hospital waiting lists enormously, reduced child poverty, closed many tax loopholes. Screwed up on Iraq, Banking regulation, but certainly the 1997 vote changed the narrative.

 

[Kip]

Interesting perspectives, although not sure what the relevance of ethnic minorities to voter ID is. To me it is a clear attempt to disenfranchise the homeless and rootless.

I actually agree about the Police, their powers seem out of all proportion to the right to demonstrate, and their bias against certain groups, including, of course, football fans, is a reality 40 years after the troubles of the 70's.

I can't argue with your final para, as a democratic remainer, the efforts of some to derail the decision, and arrogance that it could be ignored, or voters didn't understand, lead directly to Boris's Red Wall victory. However, I think those who voted for him out of principle, are the very people who will vote him out, again out of principle.

In the US the voter ID debate mainly centres around racial lines. If it doesn't here then fair enough. It is probable this will cause issues for the homeless and rootless but I'm not sure how big a problem that may be or how high that is on their priorities anyway and it has to be weighted against any possible benefits.

Democratic change is self-evidently a good thing and allows for a bit of renewal. A Labour win next time around won't cause me many sleepless nights because it forces the Conservatives to up their game and hopefully gets rid of the political deadwood. But there are plenty of people who want their lot in power forever and that's what needs guarding against. I don't see these recent initiatives as an example of that though.

 

[GeminiPool]

Disagree massively. Lord knows, there's a lot about representative democracy that needs improving but never underestimate the power of a legitimate election. Parties can be thrown out of office at the stroke of a pencil. If you don't believe it, go to the party offices on election Day, then go to the count: candidates, agents, party workers, all nervous as hell about the outcome. Voters cause that and never forget it!

Two established parties are the only ones with ANY chance of being elected. They are barely different anyway. They all went to the same schools, the same universities, work for the same NGOs, marry into the same social sets etc. etc.

I was no fan of UKIP, but their return of a single seat in exchange for three and a half million votes was the single clearest example in modern British political history of how ineffective a vehicle to popular representation the ballot box is.

 

[GeminiPool]

Not sure that's true. Whatever went wrong later, Blair Brown reduced National Debt, reduced hospital waiting lists enormously, reduced child poverty, closed many tax loopholes. Screwed up on Iraq, Banking regulation, but certainly the 1997 vote changed the narrative.

None of those represent structural change to the system. Tony Blair was not a threat to the establishment.

If anything, Blair is a great example of the removal of ideology from modern politics. His restructuring and repositioning of the Labour Party, with the sole aim of improving electability, shows that there is no room within the system for ideology; only conformity to the existing power structure.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Two established parties are the only ones with ANY chance of being elected. They are barely different anyway. They all went to the same schools, the same universities, work for the same NGOs, marry into the same social sets etc. etc.

I was no fan of UKIP, but their return of a single seat in exchange for three and a half million votes was the single clearest example in modern British political history of how ineffective a vehicle to popular representation the ballot box is.

It was Churchill who said that democracy is the worst form of Government - apart from all the rest that have been tried. Imperfect, yes. In need of improvement, yes. But better than the alternatives. I actually have witnessed massive changes in British Government courtesy of democratic elections so don't give up on them.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

None of those represent structural change to the system. Tony Blair was not a threat to the establishment.

If anything, Blair is a great example of the removal of ideology from modern politics. His restructuring and repositioning of the Labour Party, with the sole aim of improving electability, shows that there is no room within the system for ideology; only conformity to the existing power structure.

Again, disagree. What Blair understood, better than Foot, Corbyn and the rest, was that to effect change, you had to be in Government. You can call him Tory lite, non ideological, but the facts are that he improved the lot of far many more people than the last 12 years of Tory Government, who have lead a race to the bottom since Cameron. That is what Democracy should be about, voting for someone who CAN make changes.

 

[GeminiPool]

It was Churchill who said that democracy is the worst form of Government - apart from all the rest that have been tried. Imperfect, yes. In need of improvement, yes. But better than the alternatives. I actually have witnessed massive changes in British Government courtesy of democratic elections so don't give up on them.

One of the most disgustingly evil men in history said a thing, so it must be true...

I presume you hate golf and Indians as well?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

One of the most disgustingly evil men in history said a thing, so it must be true...

I presume you hate golf and Indians as well?

Of course. Golf is a good walk spoiled and as for Indians, well....I always chose to be a cowboy as a youngster.

 

[Brazil]

I think many assume the back and fro between different political sides on this board is just so much froth, nothing really changes.

3 recent pieces of legislation have changed my view on this :

Election Act, need for photo ID to vote and changes to postal voting to make if more difficult

Reform of Electoral Commission, taking away it's independence and making it report to the Levelling Up Minister, Michael Gove

The Police Bill allowing bans for noisy demonstrations

If this was another country, the Press would be full of analysis claiming consolidation of power by the ruling party, reducing the chances of any opposition ever removing them from power. Photo ID is straight out of the Trump playbook to disenfranchise the poorest and those of no or infrequent, fixed abode. Michael Gove being the ultimate arbiter of elections is bonkers. The Police Bill will ban protests against any of this (all the anti Oyston marches could have been banned)

Any decent democratic Tories out there horrified by this power grab? And why are the press so quiet on all this?

I'm no Tory but Quinton Hogg did famously describe our democratic system as "elective dictatorship"?

 

[Recidivist3]

One of the most disgustingly evil men in history said a thing, so it must be true...

I presume you hate golf and Indians as well?

You make a sensible point about ukip’s 1 seat for 3.5 million votes

1966 responds to your post using a quote from Churchill

you throw your toys out of your pram and describe him, Churchill not 1966 I hasten to add, as one of the most disgustingly evil men in history

your ‘said a thing, so it must be true ….’ merely completed your pathetic response

Did I miss something

 

[Lytham_fy8]

I'm no Tory but Quinton Hogg did famously describe our democratic system as "elective dictatorship"?

Yep and that was before each prospective leader had to impress Murdoch first and foremost to have any chance.

 

[glasshalffull]

“Finally, if you're worried about a threat to the democracy then the reaction of a large part of the political/social elite of this country post-Brexit would presumably have given you ulcers. A literal refusal to abide by the results of a democratic process and all sorts of legal and political manoeuvres to attempt overturn the decision. Totally unforgivable and the biggest threat to democracy in this country in my lifetime. It also led directly to the appointment of Boris Johnson. Maybe some should reflect on that next time they go on their regular anti-BoJo rants.”

I agree with some of the sentiment in that last paragraph. The referendum said to leave the EU, but not how to do it though.

There were many ways to do it. At least this many:

1.Deal (but what would be in it),

2. No deal.

3. In or out of the single market.

4. In or out of the customs union.

The bun fight that followed the vote was about many things, and not just the ‘remainers’.

 

[Recidivist3]

I think that Kip has forgotten that the result of the referendum wasn’t actually binding on the government

 

[Shandypants]

“Finally, if you're worried about a threat to the democracy then the reaction of a large part of the political/social elite of this country post-Brexit would presumably have given you ulcers. A literal refusal to abide by the results of a democratic process and all sorts of legal and political manoeuvres to attempt overturn the decision. Totally unforgivable and the biggest threat to democracy in this country in my lifetime. It also led directly to the appointment of Boris Johnson. Maybe some should reflect on that next time they go on their regular anti-BoJo rants.”

I agree with some of the sentiment in that last paragraph. The referendum said to leave the EU, but not how to do it though.

There were many ways to do it. At least this many:

1.Deal (but what would be in it),

2. No deal.

3. In or out of the single market.

4. In or out of the customs union.

The bun fight that followed the vote was about many things, and not just the ‘remainers’.

A yes/no vote on such a complicated subject was the biggest affront to democracy you could wish for. Dumbing down of politics by dodgy Dave so he could shut down the eurosceptics in his own party. His arrogance showed with the lousy campaign he led, the whole thing was a farce. The leave campaign was dumbed down to catchy slogans, falsehoods and exaggeration. And people celebrate that as democracy, even Johnson didn't think leaving was a good idea,. He got the job of his dreams on the back of it though, so it served a purpose.

 

[tommytwojags]

A yes/no vote on such a complicated subject was the biggest affront to democracy you could wish for. Dumbing down of politics by dodgy Dave so he could shut down the eurosceptics in his own party. His arrogance showed with the lousy campaign he led, the whole thing was a farce. The leave campaign was dumbed down to catchy slogans, falsehoods and exaggeration. And people celebrate that as democracy, even Johnson didn't think leaving was a good idea,. He got the job of his dreams on the back of it though, so it served a purpose.

Every loser of every democratic vote in history has said pretty much the same. If only the voters had understood the issues they would have voted differently.

 

[Shandypants]

Every loser of every democratic vote in history has said pretty much the same. If only the voters had understood the issues they would have voted differently.

Thats clearly untrue, I've never said that after a general election. Parties have a clear manifesto and we all know the issues that exist in this country that we want to improve. Who knew much about the single market and customs union, the licensing of medicine, integrated standards, recognition of qualifications etc.

 

[poolseasider]

A yes/no vote on such a complicated subject was the biggest affront to democracy you could wish for. Dumbing down of politics by dodgy Dave so he could shut down the eurosceptics in his own party. His arrogance showed with the lousy campaign he led, the whole thing was a farce. The leave campaign was dumbed down to catchy slogans, falsehoods and exaggeration. And people celebrate that as democracy, even Johnson didn't think leaving was a good idea,. He got the job of his dreams on the back of it though, so it served a purpose.

The arrogance came from the whole of parliament who voted overwhelmingly for the referendum it should never have been passed in the first place.

 

[Recidivist3]

Every loser of every democratic vote in history has said pretty much the same. If only the voters had understood the issues they would have voted differently.

… and yet that’s not what Shandypants said, at all

 

[GeminiPool]

You make a sensible point about ukip’s 1 seat for 3.5 million votes

1966 responds to your post using a quote from Churchill

you throw your toys out of your pram and describe him, Churchill not 1966 I hasten to add, as one of the most disgustingly evil men in history

your ‘said a thing, so it must be true ….’ merely completed your pathetic response

Did I miss something

If your only assertion is a quote from a person; then the character, conduct and beliefs of that person become entirely relevant to the discussion.

No toys have been thrown out of any prams, but thanks for participating.

 

[Recidivist3]

If your only assertion is a quote from a person; then the character, conduct and beliefs of that person become entirely relevant to the discussion.

another ridiculous assertion, tho’ one that could easily make for an enjoyable debate

Better to live a day as a lion than 100 years as a sheep - Mussolini

Don’t drink at all, don’t smoke, you must exercise and eat vegetables and fruit - Mugabe

The real strong have no need to prove it to the phonies - Manson

Impossible is a word found only in the dictionary of fools - Bonaparte

 

[Lytham_fy8]

another ridiculous assertion, tho’ one that could easily make for an enjoyable debate

Better to live a day as a lion than 100 years as a sheep - Mussolini

Don’t drink at all, don’t smoke, you must exercise and eat vegetables and fruit - Mugabe

The real strong have no need to prove it to the phonies - Manson

Impossible is a word found only in the dictionary of fools - Bonaparte

Job done - Billy Davies 2006

 

[1966_and_all_that]

A yes/no vote on such a complicated subject was the biggest affront to democracy you could wish for. Dumbing down of politics by dodgy Dave so he could shut down the eurosceptics in his own party. His arrogance showed with the lousy campaign he led, the whole thing was a farce. The leave campaign was dumbed down to catchy slogans, falsehoods and exaggeration. And people celebrate that as democracy, even Johnson didn't think leaving was a good idea,. He got the job of his dreams on the back of it though, so it served a purpose.

Hear, hear!

 

[1966_and_all_that]

If your only assertion is a quote from a person; then the character, conduct and beliefs of that person become entirely relevant to the discussion.

No toys have been thrown out of any prams, but thanks for participating.

The said a thing, so it must be true ….’ bit was weak though.

 

[Always tangerine]

Democracy and maths combine perfectly when 52% beats 48% in a referendum.

Russian interference ? Lies . Were still waiting for the 350 million per week for the NHS.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Russian interference ? Lies . Were still waiting for the 350 million per week for the NHS.

And we were told by the Govt front bench that the NI Protocol was the best deal since sliced bread. They're not sounding so upbeat now are they?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I think many assume the back and fro between different political sides on this board is just so much froth, nothing really changes.

3 recent pieces of legislation have changed my view on this :

Election Act, need for photo ID to vote and changes to postal voting to make if more difficult

Reform of Electoral Commission, taking away it's independence and making it report to the Levelling Up Minister, Michael Gove

The Police Bill allowing bans for noisy demonstrations

If this was another country, the Press would be full of analysis claiming consolidation of power by the ruling party, reducing the chances of any opposition ever removing them from power. Photo ID is straight out of the Trump playbook to disenfranchise the poorest and those of no or infrequent, fixed abode. Michael Gove being the ultimate arbiter of elections is bonkers. The Police Bill will ban protests against any of this (all the anti Oyston marches could have been banned)

Any decent democratic Tories out there horrified by this power grab? And why are the press so quiet on all this?

Good thread TM. Stand aside the usual scoffing posts, there's been some good responses.

 

[GeminiPool]

The said a thing, so it must be true ….’ bit was weak though.

Sorry, I thought we were just having a discussion. I can be more aggressive in future if that's what you prefer.