Democracy

1966_and_all_that said:
Good thread TM. Stand aside the usual scoffing posts, there's been some good responses.
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If the usual ranters stay away, I always learn something from other posters, I am in awe of how many real life genuine experts and knowledgable posters Blackpool has produced. Even when you disagree, there is always something to challenge your beliefs.
 
As predicted Brexit has badly affected trade with the EU by introducing extra trade barriers. Rees Mogg admitted as much when he postponed checks on EU food coming into the UK again the other day. We are now in the position where British exports to the EU are subject to import controls but goods coming in the opposite direction are not. Taking back control!
 
1966_and_all_that said:
The said a thing, so it must be true ….’ bit was weak though.
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Whilst it wasn't the heaviest rhetorical retort anyone has ever mustered, the underlying point is valid.

The reason why one resorts to quoting 'great men of history' is to indirectly attach a level of cachet to one's views.

'Person X said this and I agree, therefore I am co-opting some of Person X's credibility in an attempt to reinforce my point.'

If such is the case, attacking that figure's credibility is valid.

There are indeed some good arguments for democracy, but on a philosophical level, they are very rarely actually talking about the kind of democracy we have in the 21st century.

Plato, for example wasn't envisioning a world of universal suffrage when he wrote The Republic. The founding fathers of the United States would never have written what they did if they believed it related to a country that allowed uncontrolled non-European immigration.

Recidivist3 said:
🙄 you don’t take criticism well, do you Gemini ?

Split personality perhaps
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Attempting to pathologise those who disagree with you is a common tactic of those who have no substance to back their assertions.

A very weak form of ad hominem.
 
GeminiPool said:
Whilst it wasn't the heaviest rhetorical retort anyone has ever mustered, the underlying point is valid.

The reason why one resorts to quoting 'great men of history' is to indirectly attach a level of cachet to one's views.

'Person X said this and I agree, therefore I am co-opting some of Person X's credibility in an attempt to reinforce my point.'

If such is the case, attacking that figure's credibility is valid.

There are indeed some good arguments for democracy, but on a philosophical level, they are very rarely actually talking about the kind of democracy we have in the 21st century.

Plato, for example wasn't envisioning a world of universal suffrage when he wrote The Republic. The founding fathers of the United States would never have written what they did if they believed it related to a country that allowed uncontrolled non-European immigration.



Attempting to pathologise those who disagree with you is a common tactic of those who have no substance to back their assertions.

A very weak form of ad hominem.
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You're overthinking things GP. I quoted Churchill because (a) he summed up the truth about democracy apropos of other political regimes, in a very apt and concise way - something he was good at - and (b) because he was involved at the core of world politics for over more than six decades and, therefore, had a wealth of experience to call upon.

I don't pick out a quote simply because I think the originator adds second hand gravitas to my thoughts. I think carefully about who I'm quoting and the context in which the quote was made before going there.

Oh, and Plato never argued for democracy. He believed that different parts of society can be harmonized but not by invoking a universal suffrage.
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
As predicted Brexit has badly affected trade with the EU by introducing extra trade barriers. Rees Mogg admitted as much when he postponed checks on EU food coming into the UK again the other day. We are now in the position where British exports to the EU are subject to import controls but goods coming in the opposite direction are not. Taking back control!
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Yes. Rees Mogg correctly said something along the lines of “imposing duties and tariff barriers on imports to the U.K. would be a ludicrous act of self harm”.

He was essentially saying “enforcing the terms of the withdrawal agreement we signed would be a ludicrous act of self harm”.

He also said stuff about free trade being wonderful. Which begs the question why we left the biggest free trade block in the world.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
You're overthinking things GP. I quoted Churchill because (a) he summed up the truth about democracy apropos of other political regimes, in a very apt and concise way - something he was good at - and (b) because he was involved at the core of world politics for over more than six decades and, therefore, had a wealth of experience to call upon.

I don't pick out a quote simply because I think the originator adds second hand gravitas to my thoughts. I think carefully about who I'm quoting and the context in which the quote was made before going there.

Oh, and Plato never argued for democracy. He believed that different parts of society can be harmonized but not by invoking a universal suffrage.
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Fair play, that's a sound response. Apologies if I ascribed malice where none was intended. Text communication makes conveying tone incredibly difficult.

My point about Plato was that pretty much all of the foundational philosophy surrounding the system of democracy was written at a time when the concept of universal suffrage wasn't even something to be considered.

He doesn't argue FOR democracy, but his critiques of its issues are still a foundational element of the Western philosophical canon. Democracy for the Greeks never meant any kind of universalism. Who the demos actually were was well understood. What the Greeks called democracy, we would likely call a plutocracy or an aristocracy.
 
GeminiPool said:
My point about Plato was that pretty much all of the foundational philosophy surrounding the system of democracy was written at a time when the concept of universal suffrage wasn't even something to be considered.

He doesn't argue FOR democracy, but his critiques of its issues are still a foundational element of the Western philosophical canon. Democracy for the Greeks never meant any kind of universalism. Who the demos actually were was well understood. What the Greeks called democracy, we would likely call a plutocracy or an aristocracy.
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That's close enough in a soundbite. 👍
 
We certainly need some reform or rethinks into our parliamentary system, but it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas & in all honesty probably will never happen. I would like to see a few things happen though, PR, secret votes (which would put an end to the whipped ones) & some form of independent disciplinary procedure, that didn't answer to the perpetrators of said misdemeanours.
 
So many of our votes are rendered irrelevant because of permanently safe constituencies and First Past The Post. We need a new system. It’s no wonder most people lose interest.
But even so you look around the world and see however imperfect a democracy is, it is crucial to the protection of our human rights.
There are not very many benign dictators out there.
 
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glasshalffull said:
So many of our votes are rendered irrelevant because of permanently safe constituencies and First Past The Post. We need a new system. It’s no wonder most people lose interest.
But even so you look around the world and see however imperfect a democracy is, it is crucial to the protection of our human rights.
There are not very many benign dictators out there.
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There are very few benign democracies either.

The simple reality is that the elite class ignore the voters when they don't agree with them anyway. The British electorate has consistently voted along anti-immigration lines for almost all of the post-war period as an example.
 
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