Derby to run out of cash in February

All these kind of situations are avoidable.How on earth can you justify paying a manager £90k a week at this level in the first place just as one example

Anyone and everyone can go bust with this kind of mentality.The true measure of competing is living within your means trying to succeed.

It also levels the playing field for everybody.Yes bigger clubs can afford more but not at the expense of fair competition.
 
I struggle to have any sympathy.

Don’t want the club to go for ever but I’m fine with them being kicked out and having to be non-league and build their way back.

The more clubs like Portsmouth and Derby to suffer the punishment for shit management the better. Change needs to happen
 
Bloodorange said:
All these kind of situations are avoidable.How on earth can you justify paying a manager £90k a week at this level in the first place just as one example

Anyone and everyone can go bust with this kind of mentality.The true measure of competing is living within your means trying to succeed.

It also levels the playing field for everybody.Yes bigger clubs can afford more but not at the expense of fair competition.
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You pay a manager 90k, sorry a rookie manager 90k in this league, frankly you deserve to go bust.
 
Nixon has said the administrators have said they will secure funding until the end of the season by this weekend
 
I hope they do get Mike Ashley. Will be nice trip out for teams in the conference to that lovely stadium
 
Mel Morris really has done a number on the club, it's why football desperately needs regulating.

Gamble every asset a club has, go up and you're the hero and claw your money back. Lose the gamble and you slip out the back door, hide behind Ltd company law and leave the community to pick up the pieces and the debts you accumulated.

The least Morris could do would be to heavily discount the ground to reunite it with the football club.

He won't though, because he's an ego maniac vulture.
 
fcblackpool said:
You pay a manager 90k, sorry a rookie manager 90k in this league, frankly you deserve to go bust.
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I agree but Morris agreed that. He's not being held liable or accountable for it. It's Derby going bust, not Mel Morris.

Important to separate the two.
 
Tango1953 said:
I agree but Morris agreed that. He's not being held liable or accountable for it. It's Derby going bust, not Mel Morris.

Important to separate the two.
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Yes MM was the owner and is the prime culprit , but he is likely to take a £150m hit on this himself. Without him they would have probably gone bust a number of years ago. And the fans have benefited by a higher calibre of player than they could have really afforded for the last few years. You can't completely separate the two. And Derby have been treated far more leniently in terms of points penalties than other many other 'smaller clubs' that have gone before them
 
fcblackpool said:
The two shouldn't be separate. He should have had to guarantee the future with bonds, deposits whatever you call it.
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Absolutely 100% agree and that's the simple solution. Owners can spend what they want, but the owner also has to put up the value of the debt they accrue in escrow, and if they sell, they return in to the club so the debt they ran up is repaid to the club.
 
Tango1953 said:
Absolutely 100% agree and that's the simple solution. Owners can spend what they want, but the owner also has to put up the value of the debt they accrue in escrow, and if they sell, they return in to the club so the debt they ran up is repaid to the club.
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Yay. At last!!!!

Someone get the Radmac Firework smiley.
 
bfcpete said:
And the fans have benefited by a higher calibre of player than they could have really afforded for the last few years.
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The fans haven't benefited at all from Morris spunking millions on the like of Nick Blackman, Anya, Darren Bent or Bradley Johnson. They didn't agree those deals commercially, they may have celebrated them on social media or cheered them from the stands but the decisions were made by Morris, the buck stops (or should there).

Unless you're happy to take blame for Richard Kingson, Andy Reid and Sergei Kornilenko and absolve Karl Oyston and his strategy, or complete lack of.
 
O4tonygreen said:
I was led to beleive that Rooney's wages were being paid by the sponsors (Bet365 or some other bookies), not the club
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His wages are sponsored, but still go through the Derby books. It is interesting when their fans use that 'hypothecation' argument , in terms of certain income streams to justify ridiculous managerial wages for a mediocre championship club. At the same time they ignore the fact that they haven't had the income streams to cover overpaid players wages, their tax owed to the HMRC and other creditors.
 
Just relegate them to non league. This is about mismanagement of a football club and the tiers in football are there to be scaled. Like everything in life, everything is all down to money and its strangling the whole life and meaning of everything. Sadly, it corrupts and eventually kills off everything that we hold dear and Im not just talking footy.
 
bfcpete said:
His wages are sponsored, but still go through the Derby books. It is interesting when their fans use that 'hypothecation' argument , in terms of certain income streams to justify ridiculous managerial wages for a mediocre championship club. At the same time they ignore the fact that they haven't had the income streams to cover overpaid players wages, their tax owed to the HMRC and other creditors.
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Derby had a great season a while back but as you say didn't pay the taxman.
Btw I think folk should remember that it wasn't that long ago a certain family were linked financially with a club, and money was removed which was definitely impropriety of the highest order.

Not saying its analogous with the Rams but poor governance is exactly that where incidentally a certain Chairman would be entitled to run a football club again.
 
Chunkylad said:
I hope they do get Mike Ashley. Will be nice trip out for teams in the conference to that lovely stadium
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I suspect he'd probably do a pretty good job with them.

He's not going to be milking the club for money, they're one of the bigger clubs in the division so even with a break-even budget spent properly they should be around the top 6 most seasons, he's presumably learned a lot from his time at Newcastle, and he can't do a worse job than Mel Morris.

I'd be interested to see what happens if he did take it on.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I suspect he'd probably do a pretty good job with them.

He's not going to be milking the club for money, they're one of the bigger clubs in the division so even with a break-even budget spent properly they should be around the top 6 most seasons, he's presumably learned a lot from his time at Newcastle, and he can't do a worse job than Mel Morris.

I'd be interested to see what happens if he did take it on.
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I'm not sure he has even submitted a bid as yet, albeit he will be taking a close interest in things, I would imagine.

The whole thing has become a circus in the last 24 hours, and if you wanted evidence that the EFL lacks the leadership qualities and basic skills to perform the regulatory role, then there is no shortage of it in this case.

They are hardly alone though. The administrators give me no confidence whatsoever, and as for Middlesborough and Wycombe.... I think it is called opportunism, but it certainly isn't a principled way to behave. Neither seems to be giving much thought to the extent to which they may be making the EFL ungovernable. It's all something of a gift for the FSA in the campaign to implement Crouch, albeit one they would gladly pass on, if they could.

I feel sorry for the fans of Derby. I feel a lot more sorry for the club staff who got a P-45 for Christmas this year and have had to sit and watch the administrator achieve very little while racking up millions in fees.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I'm not sure he has even submitted a bid as yet, albeit he will be taking a close interest in things, I would imagine.

The whole thing has become a circus in the last 24 hours, and if you wanted evidence that the EFL lacks the leadership qualities and basic skills to perform the regulatory role, then there is no shortage of it in this case.

They are hardly alone though. The administrators give me no confidence whatsoever, and as for Middlesborough and Wycombe.... I think it is called opportunism, but it certainly isn't a principled way to behave. Neither seems to be giving much thought to the extent to which they may be making the EFL ungovernable. It's all something of a gift for the FSA in the campaign to implement Crouch, albeit one they would gladly pass on, if they could.

I feel sorry for the fans of Derby. I feel a lot more sorry for the club staff who got a P-45 for Christmas this year and have had to sit and watch the administrator achieve very little while racking up millions in fees.
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re Middlesborough and Wycombe, they have been making noises, if not a formal claim for an awful long tome so hardly opportunism.

Moving on from that, I understand Wycombe's grievance and hence the claim (that Derby deliberately delayed filing accounts that they knew would in all probability lead to a points deduction, meaning that Wycombe got relegated instead of them), but Middlesborough's claim as I understand it, that they missed out on a play-off place, is difficult to attach a price to.
 
Aye… The EFL should just bend the rules, Wycombe and Boro should just let Derby off Scott free, Parliament should legislate and the whole world snd his should dance around so that a Club who has openly cheated and consistently laughed in everyone’s face with their financial malpractice can get away with it…

It’s like the world has gone crackers….
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Aye… The EFL should just bend the rules, Wycombe and Boro should just let Derby off Scott free, Parliament should legislate and the whole world snd his should dance around so that a Club who has openly cheated and consistently laughed in everyone’s face with their financial malpractice can get away with it…

It’s like the world has gone crackers….
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Whether they laughed in everyone's face is debatable. But they self-evidently HAVEN'T got away with it. They were give a points deduction.

I'm not sure whether the EFL bending the rules is an issue either. They have applied them twice in respect of Derby that we know of. The precise status of both Middlesbrough and Wycombe's "claims" is a bit unclear. As I understand it there is an arbitration process that has stalled because of the complicating factor of administration and both complainant clubs wanting to use that to get to the front of the creditors' queue.

Thirdly, Derby aren't getting off scot free if there is no case to answer. I think Wycombe might have a case of sorts, albeit some other clubs could argue that they were very fortunate to be in the Championship in any case. How far back do you go, to establish an individual club's bona fides?

I'm struggling to see any merit at all in Middlesbrough's claim ; they are very selective in the facts they want to be considered (their own wretched form at the time should be ignored, for example), and as I understand it they are trying to claim for the gross "value" of promotion ignoring the costs that would have gone with it.

[Headmaster mode on]

Not your best effort.

[Headmaster mode off]
 
basilrobbie3 said:
Whether they laughed in everyone's face is debatable. But they self-evidently HAVEN'T got away with it. They were give a points deduction.

I'm not sure whether the EFL bending the rules is an issue either. They have applied them twice in respect of Derby that we know of. The precise status of both Middlesbrough and Wycombe's "claims" is a bit unclear. As I understand it there is an arbitration process that has stalled because of the complicating factor of administration and both complainant clubs wanting to use that to get to the front of the creditors' queue.

Thirdly, Derby aren't getting off scot free if there is no case to answer. I think Wycombe might have a case of sorts, albeit some other clubs could argue that they were very fortunate to be in the Championship in any case. How far back do you go, to establish an individual club's bona fides?

I'm struggling to see any merit at all in Middlesbrough's claim ; they are very selective in the facts they want to be considered (their own wretched form at the time should be ignored, for example), and as I understand it they are trying to claim for the gross "value" of promotion ignoring the costs that would have gone with it.

[Headmaster mode on]

Not your best effort.

[Headmaster mode off]
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It’s not for you to determine the merit of Middlesbrough’s case though. You don’t have any legal expertise and have scant information about the specifics and legal argument that sits behind their claim.

To my mind I think you and others are allowing your Anti EFL bias and long standing agenda as well as football sentimentality to get in the way of sound reason.

Derby have got themselves into this mess and they’ve done so as a collective. Had their fans been petitioning parliament and kicking up a fuss, when their club was rewriting their own version of how to rip up the financial rule book and cheat like no tomorrow, I might have had a modicum of sympathy… As it is…anything less than facing the full impact of their actions and having the rules applied to the letter would be a further injustice.

If they fail, then perhaps it might send a message that has desperately needed to ring around English Football loud and clear. I certainly won’t be shedding any tears over it… And let’s face it.. They’re big enough to rebuild and start again, so there’s nothing lost to the fans apart from time.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
Thirdly, Derby aren't getting off scot free if there is no case to answer. I think Wycombe might have a case of sorts, albeit some other clubs could argue that they were very fortunate to be in the Championship in any case. How far back do you go, to establish an individual club's bona fides?
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Wycombe's case seems to be that Derby delayed filing their accounts, which meant that a points deduction wasn't imposed last year rather than this year.

My understanding of the situation was that the points deduction derived from the EFL's appeal that was decided in May 2021 and was for submitting incorrect information in earlier years, its far from clear that if they had submitted further information to the EFL then there would've been further points penalties.

I think it's significant that Derby's spending in 2020/21 was significantly reduced, so the underlying misconduct (overspending) did not affect Wycombe in particular, this is of course why Derby were fighting relegation in the first place.

Both cases are extremely weak IMO.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Wycombe's case seems to be that Derby delayed filing their accounts, which meant that a points deduction wasn't imposed last year rather than this year.

My understanding of the situation was that the points deduction derived from the EFL's appeal that was decided in May 2021 and was for submitting incorrect information in earlier years, its far from clear that if they had submitted further information to the EFL then there would've been further points penalties.

I think it's significant that Derby's spending in 2020/21 was significantly reduced, so the underlying misconduct (overspending) did not affect Wycombe in particular, this is of course why Derby were fighting relegation in the first place.

Both cases are extremely weak IMO.
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If the cases are weak, then they shouldn't be an obstruction to a serious buyer...
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s not for you to determine the merit of Middlesbrough’s case though. You don’t have any legal expertise and have scant information about the specifics and legal argument that sits behind their claim. (1)

To my mind I think you and others are allowing your Anti EFL bias and long standing agenda as well as football sentimentality to get in the way of sound reason. (2)

Derby have got themselves into this mess and they’ve done so as a collective. Had their fans been petitioning parliament and kicking up a fuss, when their club was rewriting their own version of how to rip up the financial rule book and cheat like no tomorrow, I might have had a modicum of sympathy… As it is…anything less than facing the full impact of their actions and having the rules applied to the letter would be a further injustice.

If they fail, then perhaps it might send a message that has desperately needed to ring around English Football loud and clear. I certainly won’t be shedding any tears over it… And let’s face it.. They’re big enough to rebuild and start again, so there’s nothing lost to the fans apart from time.
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(1) I'd love it if you wrote that with a straight face, given your posting habits. And with all due respect, you don't know what legal knowledge, or specific insights on this case I might have either. I have an opinion, just like you.

(2) I don't think anyone would seriously argue that the EFL have handled this case well. They got the two points deduction decisions right (albeit one of them was pretty much non-discretionary). They have taken an inordinate amount of time to resolve this case, and thus created the opportunity for the Wycombe case to arise. They've also shifted ground, lost arguments along the way and generally buggered about for years, not months.

In fairness to them, they are hidebound by the inadequacy of the rules. But they are rules that they and the 72 club owners agreed and if they are inadequate, then the lot of them are responsible. The main difference between Middlesborough /Wycombe and the other 69 is that the first two are trying to exploit the situation for gain and don't seem too bothered whether Derby survive the fall out or not. I think that is poor behaviour from them and creates precedents that could render the EFL unmanageable, if others follow their example. It's one thing to go into the abyss because of your own incompetence. Quite another when two of your peers seem to be trying to push you over the edge.

The rest of your post is just click bait bollocks to get attention. It seems to be a bit of a default with you nowadays.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
(1) I'd love it if you wrote that with a straight face, given your posting habits. And with all due respect, you don't know what legal knowledge, or specific insights on this case I might have either. I have an opinion, just like you.

(2) I don't think anyone would seriously argue that the EFL have handled this case well. They got the two points deduction decisions right (albeit one of them was pretty much non-discretionary). They have taken an inordinate amount of time to resolve this case, and thus created the opportunity for the Wycombe case to arise. They've also shifted ground, lost arguments along the way and generally buggered about for years, not months.

In fairness to them, they are hidebound by the inadequacy of the rules. But they are rules that they and the 72 club owners agreed and if they are inadequate, then the lot of them are responsible. The main difference between Middlesborough /Wycombe and the other 69 is that the first two are trying to exploit the situation for gain and don't seem too bothered whether Derby survive the fall out or not. I think that is poor behaviour from them and creates precedents that could render the EFL unmanageable, if others follow their example. It's one thing to go into the abyss because of your own incompetence. Quite another when two of your peers seem to be trying to push you over the edge.

The rest of your post is just click bait bollocks to get attention. It seems to be a bit of a default with you nowadays.
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I do know because of the flimsy and limited way you've expressed your opinion...It's your opinion (fine), but it's not a qualified one and what does it matter in any case? (if the case has no merit, then it's a none issue for a prospective buyer/ if it does have merit then it's right that it should be heard).

The rest of your post is just more promotion material to try and support your power grab, so I'll resist commenting.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
If the cases are weak, then they shouldn't be an obstruction to a serious buyer...
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Problem is that it's an EFL tribunal, not a court of law, so it's harder to be certain about the outcome.

And regardless of the merits of the case, no buyer is going to want to invest significant sums in an asset when there remains a possibility of a large judgement against them.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Problem is that it's an EFL tribunal, not a court of law, so it's harder to be certain about the outcome.

And regardless of the merits of the case, no buyer is going to want to invest significant sums in an asset when there remains a possibility of a large judgement against them.
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If I was buying a business, with an impending case, I’d just get a legal opinion, seek to reflect the risk in the purchase price and make a commercial decision.

Anyway… I’ll leave you chaps to chew the cud on this one… 👍👍
 
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