Do the usual suspects care to comment?

Memphisboy said:
www.dailymail.co.uk

DAN HODGES: We don't have the worst Covid-19 death rate in Europe

Britain does not have the worst Covid-19 death toll in Europe. And the Government's critics know it. Unlike the UK, other nations' coronavirus statistics don't include deaths outside of hospital.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

Seems Boris Dominic and Matt have been reasonably competent after all.
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I don't think this is a game, we've less deaths than you nah na, we do more tests nah na ne nah na.
At the end of the day I would hope everyone does their best to save lives, whether that's on the front line at hospitals, carers etc or just by being sensible by social distancing when out shopping or when you exercise.
 
First of all you are clearly trying to score political points and should be throughly ashamed of yourself!! Another one for the Naughty Corner.

That said, I do agree that to focus on a sort of national league table of deaths isn’t very illuminating for all sorts of reasons

However what is clear is that the UK is amongst the worst and certainly hasn’t covered itself in any glory.
 
Also, as there is no precedence for any decision or activity the government decide on.

That gives every journo, political commentator or jumped up numpty on socail media the ability to critisize without any chance of being proven wrong..

An ideal situation for the likes of CAT and others..

Mistakes will have been made but they are not quantifiable, or ever will be..
 
What nonsense Mexboro. I just get fed up of people with a left wing agenda looking to bring the government down so thought I’d try and balance it out a bit. Is it not an article of some relevance that people may enjoy reading in these peculiar times? You big wet wipe.
 
Memphisboy said:
Not prepared to comment on the fact it’s only the Brits who include care home deaths then Tangiverse?
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Opps problem with that post. You stick to reading that despearte garbarge. That trash is for the irreversable brain dead. No doubt I'd find a million faults with the article, it's just when I see that tory pamphlet my brain bins it. I'll tell you what, impress us all and you tell us why it's based on facts but you have to prove it with academic validation.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
People are dead.
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I don’t understand the relevance of that statement Lytham? You’re one of the regulars who like to regularly have a pop at the Government and when confronted with some reasoning behind the figures you just revert back to that? Are you suggesting that I don’t care about people who’ve died? Bizarre
 
Memphisboy said:
What nonsense Mexboro. I just get fed up of people with a left wing agenda looking to bring the government down so thought I’d try and balance it out a bit. Is it not an article of some relevance that people may enjoy reading in these peculiar times? You big wet wipe.
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Which bit is nonsense as a matter of interest? I actually agreed with part of the message in the article; the bit about how national league tables aren’t much use.

Do you actually read what people have typed before firing off an angry response? You Big Girl’s Blouse (continuing the trend of infantile insults).
 
Memphisboy said:
I don’t understand the relevance of that statement Lytham? You’re one of the regulars who like to regularly have a pop at the Government and when confronted with some reasoning behind the figures you just revert back to that? Are you suggesting that I don’t care about people who’ve died? Bizarre
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I don't start threads about death statistics and haven't used them once to attack the government, that's in appalling taste, much as your OP is.

What your suggesting is that the authorities response should be lauded as we might not have the highest death rate, you probably should have had a little think before posting.
 
Stupid OP. You don't need a political agenda to highlight the incompetence of a governments actions in mishandling the pandemic. For example the Daily Mail have also SLAUGHTERED the government via their employee in chief Piers Morgan. You see - it's not a question of blue or red. It's a question of holding people to account when lives have been lost and futher are at risk.

Oh and "the usual suspects" is the most overused phrase on AVFTT. Oh and "The Usual Suspects" is a film.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
I don't start threads about death statistics and haven't used them once to attack the government, that's in appalling taste, much as your OP is.

What your suggesting is that the authorities response should be lauded as we might not have the highest death rate, you probably should have had a little think before posting.
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OK then Lytham but I’ll be monitoring your posts for any comments on Covid19 😊
 
Huge sigh 😔, Memphisboy your wasting your time mate. This lot are so blindsided it’s scary.
 
Memphisboy said:
www.dailymail.co.uk

DAN HODGES: We don't have the worst Covid-19 death rate in Europe

Britain does not have the worst Covid-19 death toll in Europe. And the Government's critics know it. Unlike the UK, other nations' coronavirus statistics don't include deaths outside of hospital.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

Seems Boris Dominic and Matt have been reasonably competent after all.
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I am afraid you and the Daily Mail are 'Off Message' here. According to the Government it is 'too early to make comparisons, and they shouldn't be made'

Also the main people undermining Hancock are the Tory Party with press briefings against him - particularly to the Daily Telegraph
 
The most reasonable comparison is the number of excess deaths compared to a 5 year norm. The UK is not doing well compared to other countries. You can argue about the reasons for high excess deaths but they will be COVID 19 related, one way or another.
www.dw.com

Are we looking at the wrong numbers for COVID-19? – DW – 05/07/2020

In many countries, fewer COVID-19 patients are dying than in earlier weeks of the pandemic. But scientific experts say we should be looking at all-cause death numbers instead — they tell a very different story.
www.dw.com www.dw.com
 
I have read somewhere that hospitals in the states are reporting nearly every death as COVID even though it's not a factor. I have a feeling that this virus isn't as bad as we're being led to believe by some governments.
 
Memphisboy said:
Not prepared to comment on the fact it’s only the Brits who include care home deaths then Tangiverse?
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It's not a fact. The Czech Republic, France, Germany, Italy, Romania, Spain and Sweden all include deaths outside of hospital (including care homes). Source https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-the-challenge-of-counting-covid-19-deaths/

It appears you are full of shit. Ultimately the only reliable comparison between countries will be excess deaths above the 5-year average. Whatever the result of this grim calculus is, it isn't really the point. The government have handled many issues so badly (e.g. PPE, the u-turn on herd immunity, lack of testing etc.) that they are open to much-justified criticism.
 
I think they have done a good job. I just have two things that could have been done better. One policing the stay AT home better and secondly not left the nursing home residents and staff nurses and careers without PPE. They stopped all PPE from getting to the companies that supplied the nursing homes.
 
BFC_Aspie said:
I have read somewhere that hospitals in the states are reporting nearly every death as COVID even though it's not a factor. I have a feeling that this virus isn't as bad as we're being led to believe by some governments.
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You can have a dose of it. I'll not bother thanks.
 
Memphisboy said:
What nonsense Mexboro. I just get fed up of people with a left wing agenda looking to bring the government down so thought I’d try and balance it out a bit. Is it not an article of some relevance that people may enjoy reading in these peculiar times? You big wet wipe.
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OK MemphisBoy, let's have it your way and inspect the contents of your irredeemably excellent source material.

Dan Hodges of the Daily Mail fumes at the Guardian for reporting that there are (at the time of the article), 29,400 deaths in the UK caused by the Coronavirus. Well, actually he only fumes at the Guardian calling it the worst in Europe. The fact of this being a huge number of deaths does not appear to concern him. No, it is the horrible idea that we could top the league table, and, by extension make Boris look bad. It's that political angle that really gets Hodges' goat. So, to prove that the UK Govt is not the 'worst in Europe,' he then draws on some spectacularly crass statistics based on the relative sizes of the 'poor performers' (isn't this scraping the barrel?), populations.

"Britain’s population is ten per cent larger than Italy’s, and 40 per cent larger than Spain’s....so to be relevant, any mortality figures have to be adjusted to reflect that." Says Hodges.

Really, Why? Let us test that bloated presumption by comparing the size of the UK's population and current total number of C-19 deaths with those of two other countries: Germany and South Korea.

As at today (10.05.20), the size of the UK population is 67.88m and the C-19 death total is 31,587.
The German equivalent statistics are: pop'n 83.78m (123.4% of the UK) and C-19 deaths stand at 7,549.
The South Korea equivalent stats are: pop'n 51.26m (75.5% of the UK) and C-19 deaths stand at 256.

Under the 'Hodges' rule, in order to be relevant the German and Korean mortality figures have to be adjusted to reflect the relative sizes of our populations. After all, fairs fair in this Alice in Wonderland scenario.

This means that Germany would by now have seen 38,978 deaths and South Korea a mere 23,845 deaths. So why haven't they?

According to the Japanese Times it was found that in Germany and South Korea, preparation and quick action aided the fight against corona virus. This contrasts with the UK, where confused messages from Government, coupled with a lack of quick action and preparation have contributed to a much higher incidence of infections and, sadly, deaths.

The Japanese Times continues that Germany, "already applauded for early actions such as social-distancing regulations and aggressive testing seen as helping keep the death toll comparatively low, Europe’s largest economy has had the financial flexibility to launch a massive rescue plan to help businesses and keep workers paid."

I apologise for lowering myself to the Hodges level of barrel-scraping but if he intends to use his column in a national newspaper to bang the political drum for his heartthrob Boris, he would be better off finding a different topic to the one that has thrown the Government's inadequacy into sharp relief.
 
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BFC_Aspie said:
I have read somewhere that hospitals in the states are reporting nearly every death as COVID even though it's not a factor. I have a feeling that this virus isn't as bad as we're being led to believe by some governments.
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There have been 38,500 more deaths than usual between March 20th and April 24th. If not due to the current crisis what are they dying of? If anything this suggests things are worse not better than we are being led to believe.
 
I spoke to a GP acquaintance on Friday - She has recently returned to work after contracting the Virus - the guideline is that medical staff should return to duty 48 hours after their temperature returns to normal.

She said to me that the true numbers will only be told by the 'Excess Deaths' of which there are many in her practice, she said people were having heart attacks and not going to hospital because they believe they stand more chance at home(for whatever reason)!

GP's have to report odd/ not immediately explained deaths to the Coroner(If a patient has tested positive for COVID this is explained and not reportable). Normally they have to speak to the Coroner once or twice a year(in her Practice).

Currently they are having to speak to the Coroner once or twice a DAY and have re recruited a retired colleague just to handle that workload
 
133HSL said:
I spoke to a GP acquaintance on Friday - She has recently returned to work after contracting the Virus - the guideline is that medical staff should return to duty 48 hours after their temperature returns to normal.

She said to me that the true numbers will only be told by the 'Excess Deaths' of which there are many in her practice, she said people were having heart attacks and not going to hospital because they believe they stand more chance at home(for whatever reason)!

GP's have to report odd/ not immediately explained deaths to the Coroner(If a patient has tested positive for COVID this is explained and not reportable). Normally they have to speak to the Coroner once or twice a year(in her Practice).

Currently they are having to speak to the Coroner once or twice a DAY and have re recruited a retired colleague just to handle that workload
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It's sad that people are scared to seek medical advice at the moment. However I have not seen many sources say that A and E are still open as normal for other emergency situations. I wonder how many deaths are as a result of people not ringing the emergency services when they should have.
 
BFC_Aspie said:
It's sad that people are scared to seek medical advice at the moment. However I have not seen many sources say that A and E are still open as normal for other emergency situations. I wonder how many deaths are as a result of people not ringing the emergency services when they should have.
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that was her point, a lot of the 'excess deaths' are not COVID related but caused by people not seeking attention when they should of. In her practices case happening once or twice a day rather than once or twice a year
 
Are Germany only counting C19 deaths if they have actually died of the virus where the UK are counting deaths if someone has died with the virus. Let’s be honest here all the political point scoring on here is rancid, no one knows the real numbers throughout the world, most countries figures are based on different findings. It’s a pandemic meaning the whole world has been caught with there pants down. I agree theres a few things the government could of maybe done better. But really what does that achieve now, it won’t bring anyone back. You will just have to wait until the next election to vent your spleen and try and vote them out.
 
BFC_Aspie said:
It's sad that people are scared to seek medical advice at the moment. However I have not seen many sources say that A and E are still open as normal for other emergency situations. I wonder how many deaths are as a result of people not ringing the emergency services when they should have.
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I said this in the first week of lockdown. It was inevitable when the whole emphasis was protect the NHS from being overwhelmed.
 
Scaramanga said:
Are Germany only counting C19 deaths if they have actually died of the virus where the UK are counting deaths if someone has died with the virus. Let’s be honest here all the political point scoring on here is rancid, no one knows the real numbers throughout the world, most countries figures are based on different findings. It’s a pandemic meaning the whole world has been caught with there pants down. I agree theres a few things the government could of maybe done better. But really what does that achieve now, it won’t bring anyone back. You will just have to wait until the next election to vent your spleen and try and vote them out.
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What about learning lessons here and now rather than let preventable deaths occur? Nothing to do with spleen venting. For instance, it didn't take a genius to bring in screening at airports plus isolation of anyone coming into the country. Why did it start yesterday, for fucks sake? Some of us were calling for it 6 weeks ago on here, never mind in the halls of power.

That's not political point scoring, it's constructive criticism/ comment on the current situation.
 
physio1 said:
so were 50,000 last year from flu.
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I can't find a figure for last year, but according to the ONS
In England the Flu deaths were
2014/2015 - 28,330 deaths
2015/2016 - 11,875 deaths
2016/2017 - 18,009 deaths
2017/2018 - 26,408 deaths

Source - 'Surveillance of influenza and other respiratory viruses in the UK Winter 2018 to 2019 ' avaiulable to download from the ONS

Where do you get the 50k last year figure from ? We have had a very mild winter so I would suspect the figure to be on the lower side of the range in the Table

Also people will still be dying from 'ordinary' Flu - The Covid Deaths are additional
 
Scaramanga said:
Are Germany only counting C19 deaths if they have actually died of the virus where the UK are counting deaths if someone has died with the virus. Let’s be honest here all the political point scoring on here is rancid, no one knows the real numbers throughout the world, most countries figures are based on different findings. It’s a pandemic meaning the whole world has been caught with there pants down. I agree theres a few things the government could of maybe done better. But really what does that achieve now, it won’t bring anyone back. You will just have to wait until the next election to vent your spleen and try and vote them out.
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Thats just blind political bigotry

i would criticise any Government for having the 4th highest per capita death rate in the world- whatever their politics - you are obviously a naturally subservient person
 
the point is the test which they use the PCR test cannot accurately test for Coronavirus and the original inventor of the test warned against its accuracy then.It tests for a genetic material which is produced from a cell called an exosome.Your cells secrete exosomes when you encounter various illnesses from the common cold to virus,fungal diseases,bacterial diseases,heart diseases,cancer anything really that attacks your system will create these exosomes.So how can they identify what exactly caused the exosomes to be produced if there are a variety of different illnesses that might have produced them?

So you think of that and then you hear of "COVID 19 being presumed to best of knowledge" as a suitable reason to record that person's death as COVID 19 when it couldve been a variety of reasons.When you see the Coronavirus Act 2020 state that it is now acceptable for a funeral director or unrelated medical practitioner to sign off the death certificate without going through the coroner and under the above "presumed best of knowledge" assumptions then many questions need to be answered.
 
Ormergod said:
the point is the test which they use the PCR test cannot accurately test for Coronavirus and the original inventor of the test warned against its accuracy then.It tests for a genetic material which is produced from a cell called an exosome.Your cells secrete exosomes when you encounter various illnesses from the common cold to virus,fungal diseases,bacterial diseases,heart diseases,cancer anything really that attacks your system will create these exosomes.So how can they identify what exactly caused the exosomes to be produced if there are a variety of different illnesses that might have produced them?

So you think of that and then you hear of "COVID 19 being presumed to best of knowledge" as a suitable reason to record that person's death as COVID 19 when it couldve been a variety of reasons.When you see the Coronavirus Act 2020 state that it is now acceptable for a funeral director or unrelated medical practitioner to sign off the death certificate without going through the coroner and under the above "presumed best of knowledge" assumptions then many questions need to be answered.
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that's why 'excess deaths' are the key !!!
 
133HSL said:
that's why 'excess deaths' are the key !!!
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But will we ever get a true accurate figure.People have died and already been buried with COVID attatched to them and they were never tested.Its too late to get accurate data from that.COVID still getting marked down to this day so really the only data they can use is the data from the excess mortality where the doctor was unwilling to mark down COVID as he wasnt satisfied enough.
 
Wizaard said:
What about learning lessons here and now rather than let preventable deaths occur? Nothing to do with spleen venting. For instance, it didn't take a genius to bring in screening at airports plus isolation of anyone coming into the country. Why did it start yesterday, for fucks sake? Some of us were calling for it 6 weeks ago on here, never mind in the halls of power.

That's not political point scoring, it's constructive criticism/ comment on the current situation.
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I agree regards the airport screening, I actually posted on here weeks ago regards commercial flights and shipping. Pissing and moaning about it now is not constructive criticism it’s just moaning for mornings sake.
 
133HSL said:
Thats just blind political bigotry

i would criticise any Government for having the 4th highest per capita death rate in the world- whatever their politics - you are obviously a naturally subservient person
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Garbage, but your entitled to your opinion.
 
Scaramanga said:
I agree regards the airport screening, I actually posted on here weeks ago regards commercial flights and shipping. Pissing and moaning about it now is not constructive criticism it’s just moaning for mornings sake.
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It IS Constructive criticism, so the same mistakes don't happen in the future !!! - whoever the Government is !!!
 
Ormergod said:
But will we ever get a true accurate figure.People have died and already been buried with COVID attatched to them and they were never tested.Its too late to get accurate data from that.COVID still getting marked down to this day so really the only data they can use is the data from the excess mortality where the doctor was unwilling to mark down COVID as he wasnt satisfied enough.
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i don't see how it is possible to get a 100% COVID count for the reasons you give, however excess deaths give an accurate reading of how many more people are dying than would normally be expected - and some people are dying because they aren't going to their doctors or go to hospital when they should because they are scared or worried about overloading the NHS
 
Scaramanga said:
I agree regards the airport screening, I actually posted on here weeks ago regards commercial flights and shipping. Pissing and moaning about it now is not constructive criticism it’s just moaning for mornings sake.
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No it's not. It's bringing the decision makers to account. Six weeks ago we were called moaners for being unsupportive.
 
Just curious but would you be so keen to bring the government to account if it was the other side making a shambles of it. I know you will say yes but I have my doubts. No body knows how they would of fared, they may well of done better but they also could of been worse. None of this is constructive and many other countries are still making a balls of things.
 
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