Dutch elections

T

TSSeasider

Well-known member
I can't see a thread on it, but I see this Dutch have given the PVV party the largest number of seats in Parliament by some distance.

His anti-immigration, Netherlands first approach has obviously such a chord with the population.

Be interesting to see how proportional representation affects the eventual make up of the government.

And whether he can deliver on his plan for a referendum on membership of the EU.
 
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TSSeasider said:
I can't see a thread on it, but I see this Dutch have given the PVV party the largest number of seats in Parliament but some distance.

His anti-immigration, Netherlands first approach has obviously such a chord with the population.

Be interesting to see how proportional representation affects the eventual make up of the government.

And whether he can deliver of his plan for a referendum on membership of the EU.
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Yer noticed that.
Pretty sure had it been the other way round and he lost his deposit (to quote a British phase) we’ve had had one from the usual suspects telling us all the bad news. 🤣
 
TSSeasider said:
I can't see a thread on it, but I see this Dutch have given the PVV party the largest number of seats in Parliament but some distance.

His anti-immigration, Netherlands first approach has obviously such a chord with the population.

Be interesting to see how proportional representation affects the eventual make up of the government.

And whether he can deliver of his plan for a referendum on membership of the EU.
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You sound pleased about this - here are some of his quotes;

 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
What about Ollygon - he is usually straight in there?
What do you think of the things that Wilders has said?
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He’s been a naughty boy I believe so he’s serving time.
Not before time as well in my book he got away with things that others got banned for saying me included.
Wilders is growing in support because he wants change in Holland.
People wanted change over here prior to 2016 Let’s not forget whatever we all think about the UKIP party a few years ago they got 4.5 million votes in a general election and had 2 sitting MP’s and ultimately we voted for Brexit.
Holland will go the same way just wait and see and they won’t be on their own either far too many things in the world are pissing people off and they’ve had enough of being ruled by someone else.
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
You sound pleased about this - here are some of his quotes;

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I never said whether it was good or bad - my reflections are just observational.

Which is why I went on to discuss PR and how that will impact on his ability to form a government.

I have no idea what the prevailing opinion of the EU is over there, but getting a chance to vote to stay or go, which is what he's campaigned on, is surely just a simple act of democracy?

I hope they can do it so they get to choose, but I have my doubts. Another member state leaving the EU would create an existential crisis for the EU; and I'm not convinced the established pro-EU institutions will allow it happen, just in case they vote to leave - and in not saying they would - I don't know.
 
TSSeasider said:
I never said whether it was good or bad - my reflections are just observational.

Which is why I went on to discuss PR and how that will impact on his ability to form a government.

I have no idea what the prevailing opinion of the EU is over there, but getting a chance to vote to stay or go, which is what he's campaigned on, is surely just a simple act of democracy?

I hope they can do it so they get to choose, but I have my doubts. Another member state leaving the EU would create an existential crisis for the EU; and I'm not convinced the established pro-EU institutions will allow it happen, just in case they vote to leave - and in not saying they would - I don't know.
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I think he ruled out a referendum before the election.
But he has done better than expected so I suppose it may be back on the table.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
He’s been a naughty boy I believe so he’s serving time.
Not before time as well in my book he got away with things that others got banned for saying me included.
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Wilders is the leader of the party which has just run the most seats.

He's got quite a long record of saying things which lots of people find offensive and are quite close to the bone.

He really didn't think Islam had a place in a modern democracy and has disproportionate influence over the country - amongst lots of other things.

He ran competitions for people to draw Mohammed etc - which is antagonistic to Muslims, which in his opinion, is ridiculous. It shall means he has 24 hours security as he's under container death threats.

Lately though he's been toning down the rhetoric so that makes him more electable, which has obviously been a successful strategy.

I think Merkel's open borders has probably created the conditions where more heritage Europeans feel their way of life is being undermined - and it will continue to play out.
 
TSSeasider said:
I never said whether it was good or bad - my reflections are just observational.

Which is why I went on to discuss PR and how that will impact on his ability to form a government.

I have no idea what the prevailing opinion of the EU is over there, but getting a chance to vote to stay or go, which is what he's campaigned on, is surely just a simple act of democracy?

I hope they can do it so they get to choose, but I have my doubts. Another member state leaving the EU would create an existential crisis for the EU; and I'm not convinced the established pro-EU institutions will allow it happen, just in case they vote to leave - and in not saying they would - I don't know.
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I think he was referring to my comments.
Change is coming to the EU mark my words.
Oh and that’s in my opinion in case I upset anyone.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I think he ruled out a referendum before the election.
But he has done better than expected so I suppose it may be back on the table.
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I hadn't realised.

I suspect her will want to bring one - but I'm not sure he will be in a position to do it.

I don't know the Dutch parliamentary process, but I suspect that's going to be a period of relative instability as they scramble to organise an alternative.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I think he was referring to my comments.
Change is coming to the EU mark my words.
Oh and that’s in my opinion in case I upset anyone.
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I was referring to the link that I provided which shows a collection of things that Wilders has said over the years.
Some of them appear to be a little islamophobic and would probably be against the law in the UK if a politician said them here
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
I was referring to the link that I provided which shows a collection of things that Wilders has said over the years.
Some of them appear to be a little islamophobic and would probably be against the law in the UK if a politician said them
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Oh sorry.

Yes I’d agree with you there just wouldn’t get away with some of that over here.

And some people are worried Farage is in the jungle earning a big fat wad ££££ 😉
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Oh sorry.

Yes I’d agree with you there just wouldn’t get away with some of that over here.

And some people are worried Farage is in the jungle earning a big fat wad ££££ 😉
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I just don't like nationalists whether they be English Nationalists like Farage and Johnson, Dutch Nationalists like Wilders, French Nationalists like Le Pen, Italian Nationalists like Meloni or Scottish Nationalists like Sturgeon. They are all cut from the same cloth as far as I am concerned and very often pander to prejudice - like Wilders does with his comments on Islam. They are all about division, us vs them politics, it is very depressing. And of course we have seen what extreme nationalism can lead to.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I just don't like nationalists whether they be English Nationalists like Farage and Johnson, Dutch Nationalists like Wilders, French Nationalists like Le Pen, Italian Nationalists like Meloni or Scottish Nationalists like Sturgeon. They are all cut from the same cloth as far as I am concerned and very often pander to prejudice - like Wilders does with his comments on Islam. They are all about division, us vs them politics, it is very depressing. And of course we have seen what extreme nationalism can lead to.
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That’s a fair comment and you are entitled to such views.

The world is changing wether we like it or not some for the good but unfortunately some for the bad (I won’t go into details) but the bad things have brought people like you mention out on the streets and are gaining support wether we like it or not times are changing for all the right and wrong reasons.
 
I don't know if this is progressive, what with Wilders reputed to be a buddy of Putin and all, but it is very clearly a rejection of the EU and its policies as he stood on an anti-EU platform and protection of Dutch national identity. Poland, Hungary and others will be watching this with interest.
 
Put some perspective on the vote, wilders got 23% of the vote. He has significantly less than a third of the seats. Turnout was only 77% - the Dutch people have not spoken - about 18% of them have. That is worrying in itself, though. In most European countries there is a solid 15% (ish) of the populations who have leanings towards intolerance, whatever that may be; immigration, sex or sexual orientation, gender or hold toxic nationalistic views, and most of these people will not be able to explain why they hold these views beyond a few simplistic and meaningless soundbites.

The vast majority of the people who vote for these types of people are voting against their own interests, but after 50 plus years of policies that have been designed to meet the needs of the very wealthy / big corporations and are in direct opposition to actual working people, the indoctrination of those policies is deep seated.

Politicians and parties on the progressive, liberal, leftish leaning side of the scale, just do not have the policies or the willingness to change the basic socio-economic structure, systems or entities of governance and simply tinker at the edges of well established and mostly broken and unfair systems. If they don't then that 15% will grow.
 
TSSeasider said:
I never said whether it was good or bad - my reflections are just observational.

Which is why I went on to discuss PR and how that will impact on his ability to form a government.

I have no idea what the prevailing opinion of the EU is over there, but getting a chance to vote to stay or go, which is what he's campaigned on, is surely just a simple act of democracy?

I hope they can do it so they get to choose, but I have my doubts. Another member state leaving the EU would create an existential crisis for the EU; and I'm not convinced the established pro-EU institutions will allow it happen, just in case they vote to leave - and in not saying they would - I don't know.
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Bit of a weird one this, all the UK coverage is saying he campaigned on Nexit, but I spoke to my Dutch friend and apparently he’s not said anything about leaving the EU in this campaign, and all the Dutch coverage is around his anti Islam views not worried about leaving the EU. Think it’s a case of us projecting.

I think you’re right to point out he’ll need to form a coalition government which will likely water down anything extreme. Seems like he’s already watered down a lot of his previous rhetoric, like banning the Quran, to get to where he is today. I remember coming across him back in 08 and he was pretty much on the same hymn sheet as Nick Griffin.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
.
People wanted change over here prior to 2016 Let’s not forget whatever we all think about the UKIP party a few years ago they got 4.5 million votes in a general election and had 2 sitting MP’s
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Not to be picky but wasn't it 1 seat. The greens did well as well and got 1 seat.

Think under PR it would have been over 80 seats for ukip.

Looking back at comments at the time "The Electoral Reform Society (ERS) has described the 2015 general election as “the most disproportionate in electoral history”. Three out of four votes cast were “wasted” while the majority of MPs were elected with fewer than 50% of the votes cast in their constituencies. The SDLP won the Belfast South constituency with a mere 24.5% of the vote – the lowest winning vote share since records began, according to the ERS."
 
BWseasider said:
Bit of a weird one this, all the UK coverage is saying he campaigned on Nexit, but I spoke to my Dutch friend and apparently he’s not said anything about leaving the EU in this campaign, and all the Dutch coverage is around his anti Islam views not worried about leaving the EU. Think it’s a case of us projecting.
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That makes sense as the far right parties in Europe have mostly dropped leaving the EU from their agendas, at least for the time being while we wrestle with it all.
 
Holland has a constitution which means Wilders will be lucky to get a single one of his promises realised, like the other right wing populists he's a fraud. This assumes he can get any other party to work with him which is highly unlikely. He's not the messiah he's a very naughty boy.
 
TSSeasider said:
I can't see a thread on it, but I see this Dutch have given the PVV party the largest number of seats in Parliament by some distance.

His anti-immigration, Netherlands first approach has obviously such a chord with the population.

Be interesting to see how proportional representation affects the eventual make up of the government.

And whether he can deliver on his plan for a referendum on membership of the EU.
Click to expand...
Funny to call any possible eu out vote Nexit😂
 
bill40 said:
Holland has a constitution which means Wilders will be lucky to get a single one of his promises realised, like the other right wing populists he's a fraud. This assumes he can get any other party to work with him which is highly unlikely. He's not the messiah he's a very naughty boy.
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Must be lots of Turds in Holland then as they took the lions share of the vote in the elections.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I think he was referring to my comments.
Change is coming to the EU mark my words.
Oh and that’s in my opinion in case I upset anyone.
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I would tend to agree that change is coming to the EU and that's from my standpoint of being very pro Europe. It could go one of two ways; it begins to federalise along the lines of a United States of Europe which it is beginning to to do with its attempts at closer politic ties, which literally nobody wants and we know it will not work (you look at the USA where states like Texas or Alabama are possibly more unaligned culturally, socially and economically with the likes of New York or California than at the beginning of the federal experiment.

The EU also sets bureaucratic absolutes to the member states but does not force compliance in enforcement in member states, such as: Spain's lack of consumer protection enforcement, Italy's lack of sexual equality in the workplace, Poland's lack of freedom of the Judiciary, Hungary's government's tendency towards outright fascism. That creates problems at two levels; market libertarians feel the EU is overly bureaucratic and those of with some sense of fairness don't necessarily see the benefits of (beneficial) legislation (human rights, worker protection etc) because there is little or no mechanism for enforcement at a national level. Both cases end up with popular support for leave arguments because there is no-one advocating for the kind of necessary change to the EU within pro EU camps.
 
I think this is very, very different to anything that's happened in the UK. His party manifesto (correct me if I'm wrong) was still calling for the banning of mosques and the quran. It is of course perfectly possible to argue reasonably that you think immigration is too high (I disagree, but that's hardly the point) but this is something entirely different and is, frankly, an absolute disgrace. I think very few readers of this board would agree with his proposed ban and even if they did peer pressure would see them keep it to themselves (good).

Yes, okay, only a substantial minority of the electorate voted for him but that's already millions of people. Don't you also find it telling that these views are also legitimised by other parties eg no complete rule out of negotiations with such a party?

I would also say what do you think the reaction would have been if this result had happened with a party that had such views on any other religion? And what does that then tell you? How do you think this result would be perceived in the Muslim world?

Articles I've read along the lines of ah but he gets on well with political colleagues from other parties are just ridiculous really. It's okay he is a jolly guy! Nothing to see here!

A dark day.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Must be lots of Turds in Holland then as they took the lions share of the vote in the elections.
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What? They took barely a quarter of all votes leaving the left able to procure a majority in coalition with a centre right party. The are two other centre right parties who had already ruled out working with Wilders. The outcome won't be known for months and it could well lead to another election.
 
Having just spent a week in Amsterdam and found the people so friendly and most seem to speak English. A lovely city and would recommend a boat trip on the amazing canal system and a visit to the Anna Frank museum very sad but we mustn’t forget 😢 their economy seems very strong with many international companies attracted to Holland with generous tax rules. A word of warning look both ways to avoid the bikes 🚴(more bikes than people
 
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