Electric vehicles infrastructure

Macseasider

Macseasider

Well-known member
So the government plans for the whole of the UK to be driving electric vehicles by 2030 with petrol and diesel having a last stand of 2035.

2030 is less than 7 years away and the more I read from both car journalists and car manufacturers and sellers this is pie in the sky.

Not only can people not afford to purchase an electric vehicle but there is next to zero infrastructure to support it AND most importantly they are no better for the environment and will cost more to run.

Personally I've alway thought the idea of electric cars a load of bollocks and the charging of them requires immense use of fossil fuels anyway. I was always under the impression that until vehicles are run on hydrogen then it's a waste of time?

Thoughts?
 
We’ve transferred ours at work and prices are comparable and the infrastructure is absolutely fine and growing rapidly.

Most people I speak to who have gone electric wouldn’t go back.

As ever the ‘Oil Industry’ together with those who fear change love to sow the seeds of pessimism.
 
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Pie in the sky targets from a Government who knows they will not be around to see it fail.

Not enough power generation planned to cope, not enough power transmission lines to reach the whole country planned, the only source that could make up a lot of generation in time is weather dependent and Tories don't like the look of them.
 
No chance of achieving 2030 or 2035 targets.
Equipment and infrastructure way off where it needs to be, and the cost of electric vehicles needs to drop significantly. Many people on lower incomes won't be able to afford them, unless there is a scheme to subsidise.
 
I’d be interested to see whether or not the ‘negative nellies’ drive petrol / diesel or Electric / Hybrid ..

My guess would be that you’ll get negativity from the former and positivity from the latter (by and large) but could be wrong…. (Maybe people could state their vehicle type for interest?)
 
We debated this a few weeks ago.

One enormous positive you get from electric car is that they do not cough out crap out of an exhaust. So many people these days suffer respiratory illnesses and particularly elderly people and children with Asthma.

I’ve one E/v and one petrol. Using Zap map I’ve never once had an issue charging it away from home. It’s charged in 20 mins and new E/v do 350 miles charged which is way more than most people’s weekly usage.

The tech will improve and the infrastructure will improve too. You’re not wrong on the fact that disposal of batteries needs improving and also power generation to support it
 
So in answer to your question, we currently own both Petrol and Diesel vehicles. However, my negativity is more about the achievablity of the targets and not about moving away from petrol and diesel. I will be happy to when the costs fall to a level of comparability, when most vehicles can travel 300 miles plus and when the infrastructure is at the required level.
 
Tiptree Tangerine said:
No chance of achieving 2030 or 2035 targets.
Equipment and infrastructure way off where it needs to be, and the cost of electric vehicles needs to drop significantly. Many people on lower incomes won't be able to afford them, unless there is a scheme to subsidise.
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I think the cost will be resolved too. China are producing MG and other brands now and their new EV is expected to be £20k new.

Second hand market will be interesting. There’ll be a lot of ex fleet Tesla on the market this and particularly next year as the 3 year lease finish. The batteries barely degrade in that time. Maybe even in 10 years the degradation is minimal too and the car is on the market for £5k or less like petrol 10-15 year old cars.
 
Chunkylad said:
We debated this a few weeks ago.

One enormous positive you get from electric car is that they do not cough out crap out of an exhaust. So many people these days suffer respiratory illnesses and particularly elderly people and children with Asthma.

I’ve one E/v and one petrol. Using Zap map I’ve never once had an issue charging it away from home. It’s charged in 20 mins and new E/v do 350 miles charged which is way more than most people’s weekly usage.

The tech will improve and the infrastructure will improve too. You’re not wrong on the fact that disposal of batteries needs improving and also power generation to support it
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I’m seeing the pressure start to mount and fast paced legislation / guidance to support / encourage a much more serious approach to reducing energy usage in our industry / business sector.

As I’ve always stressed on here the increased generation capacity is only one side of the equation and stopping energy wastage will play a significant role in meeting our targets and clearing available energy for alternative use, such as vehicle charging.

We have barely scratched the surface here in the U.K. when it comes to opportunities to increase efficiency.

Add to that a significant increase in the uptake for ‘self-generation’, I can see things gathering momentum and pace over the remainder of this decade and beyond.

The one thing that has surprised me most with using an EV is how little you would actually need Amy significant ‘range’ … I’m probably not typical, but can easily manage with no inconvenience whatsoever on a 30 mile range for 95% plus of my mileage.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I’m seeing the pressure start to mount and fast paced legislation / guidance to support / encourage a much more serious approach to reducing energy usage in our industry / business sector.

As I’ve always stressed on here the increased generation capacity is only one side of the equation and stopping energy wastage will play a significant role in meeting our targets and clearing available energy for alternative use, such as vehicle charging.

We have barely scratched the surface here in the U.K. when it comes to opportunities to increase efficiency.

Add to that a significant increase in the uptake for ‘self-generation’, I can see things gathering momentum and pace over the remainder of this decade and beyond.

The one thing that has surprised me most with using an EV is how little you would actually need Amy significant ‘range’ … I’m probably not typical, but can easily manage with no inconvenience whatsoever on a 30 mile range for 95% plus of my mileage.
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Always interesting reading comments from someone with industry understanding. 👍

My friend (an exile Seasider) is Commercial Director for Europe at Jag Land Rover. He’s my go to on cars as it affects his pocket directly.
They’ve spent a lot of time and budget analysing options Inc Hydrogen and alternative fuels. JLR are firmly committed to EV as they see all the potential issues being resolved in the next decade.

It’s highly feasible that anyone doing 10k per year mileage will be ‘filling up’ every 6 or 8 weeks and that taking 5 mins at a local garage in the mot so distant future. Then you throw in options being investigated around self charging paintwork etc
 
Macseasider said:
So the government plans for the whole of the UK to be driving electric vehicles by 2030 with petrol and diesel having a last stand of 2035.

2030 is less than 7 years away and the more I read from both car journalists and car manufacturers and sellers this is pie in the sky.

Not only can people not afford to purchase an electric vehicle but there is next to zero infrastructure to support it AND most importantly they are no better for the environment and will cost more to run.

Personally I've alway thought the idea of electric cars a load of bollocks and the charging of them requires immense use of fossil fuels anyway. I was always under the impression that until vehicles are run on hydrogen then it's a waste of time?

Thoughts?
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I'll be 100 y.o. in 2035, somehow I don't think it will affect me. 😜
Got a 'Mild Hybrid car now.
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I’d be interested to see whether or not the ‘negative nellies’ drive petrol / diesel or Electric / Hybrid ..

My guess would be that you’ll get negativity from the former and positivity from the latter (by and large) but could be wrong…. (Maybe people could state their vehicle type for interest?)
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What are you on about? I posted about the infrastructure. I'd have an electric car tomorrow as that is what we will have to do but I cannot afford one right now. Sorry about that.

I questioned whether there will be relevant infrastructure in place in 7 years. For me there is absolutely no chance.
 
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Macseasider said:
What are you on about? I posted about the infrastructure. I'd have an electric car tomorrow as that is what we will have to do but I cannot afford one right now. Sorry about that.

I questioned whether there will be relevant infrastructure in place in 7 years. For me there is absolutely no chance.
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I’m ‘on about’ the general negativity towards EV’s and the supposed ‘infrastructure issues’. Please don’t take my comments personally, I wasn’t having a go… just interested generally, given some of the comments👍

Vehicles ‘generally’ are expensive at the minute and whilst there is a premium on EV’s, the tax incentives and options available for businesses (and fleets) in particular make them affordable.

We operate a scheme that gives all our employees (not just company car drivers)access to the tax advantages and thereby a reduced cost EV should they want one… There’s plenty of good schemes available. It might be worth speaking to your employer to see if they are prepared to do something similar?
 
I think my main concern is the lifespan of these vehicles, I struggle to see them lasting much more than 10 years, in which case I think they're going to be unaffordable for a significant proportion of the population.
 
Petrol/Diesel owner
What are we trying to achieve with EVs? they cost more to buy, produce more CO2 to build, batteries are currently unrecyclable, Depreciation is immense compared to "normal cars", Range claims are like MPG claims are unachievable, Range anxiety is a real fear for owners, Recharging, on the go can take hours, due to waiting for a free/working charger, (I can fill my Diesel Merc in 5mins & it does 700miles on a full tank), range drops significantly in cold weather, Transmission infrastructure is not achievable is everybody wanted a home charger, The electricity that powers them comes from burning fossil fuels, Electricity is getting expensive, I could go on... Not a rant, but genuine points to research/consider before "saving the planet"
 
Limechase said:
Petrol/Diesel owner
What are we trying to achieve with EVs? they cost more to buy, produce more CO2 to build, batteries are currently unrecyclable, Depreciation is immense compared to "normal cars", Range claims are like MPG claims are unachievable, Range anxiety is a real fear for owners, Recharging, on the go can take hours, due to waiting for a free/working charger, (I can fill my Diesel Merc in 5mins & it does 700miles on a full tank), range drops significantly in cold weather, Transmission infrastructure is not achievable is everybody wanted a home charger, The electricity that powers them comes from burning fossil fuels, Electricity is getting expensive, I could go on... Not a rant, but genuine points to research/consider before "saving the planet"
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For starters, you’re probably only 10,000 miles in an EV before you’ve overcome any CO2 differential in build. Modern batteries have a life cycle of 100 - 200,000 miles.

Secondly EV batteries are recyclable and recycling options already exist.

Depreciation… What’s that ? Many have been appreciating in value 😂

Recharging - Most drivers will barely ever require the range and charging on the go is fast and straightforward and improving all the time… I mean who honestly drives more than a couple of hundred miles in one sitting - Answer (around 1% of the population max)

Ultimately generation will rely on sustainable sources and increased carbon efficiency. The plan is to move forwards and the only way to do that is to set targets and put one foot in front of the other…. The alternative is to do nothing, which achieves nothing.

Energy costs can be stabilised with attention and investment in infrastructure… The price for Fuel Oils will inevitably become increasingly volatile.

A lot of the fear / anxiety goes out the window once you change over.

What is it they say about “necessity”?

We’ll see an absolute explosion in technology over the next few years…. The ball is already rolling.
 
I just can’t see how they can install the charging points needed, unless of course the plan is to covert existing petrol stations to mainly electric charging, but what about the millions living in flats and terraced houses with no possibility of have a home charger. I can see 2030 being extended.
 
Macseasider said:
True. A lot of people are on these schemes already. Just no good with 3 young kids and a dog.
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I can envisage a situation where a car will just be something you use like an electric bike.... they'll probably drive themselves before too long too..... You'll tap your phone and a suitable car will just tip up outside your 'Smart' House...

Seriously though, I imagine that the whole concept of transport is going to transform beyond all recognition and perhaps (if we live long enough) within many of our lifetimes.
 
Matesrates said:
I just can’t see how they can install the charging points needed, unless of course the plan is to covert existing petrol stations to mainly electric charging, but what about the millions living in flats and terraced houses with no possibility of have a home charger. I can see 2030 being extended.
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Imagine having to wait potentially hours at a service station?

I read an article by Nadine Dorries (yes I know) but she said she returned her EV after 5000 miles due to the anxiety it invokes. She said she was driving from the South to pick her mother up in Lytham and there was a tailback on the M6. It was winter so she had the heater on and the battery was just draining. She said she managed to just get to LSA and her daughter googled the nearest charge point which was Booths but it was out of order.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I suspect it won’t be long before Car ‘ownership’ becomes a thing of the past
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Yeah, I wonder about that too.

We live in Rural Scotland, 550 miles from elderly and increasingly unwell family. When I need to get there, and it has happened a few times, particularly with my now deceased MiL, I need to get there. We live in a flat without a drive, we have 2 recycling plugs in the village, with thousands of visitors. All that forces us into the most modern diesel we can.

I admire your positivity re different power sources, and efficiency gains, and good luck to your business for being good enough to help all its employees, I wish there were more like you. However, the evidence of the last few years of rush to dividend rather than investment suggests businesses are not prepared to make major investment to reduce energy usage, and there has been no supported home insulation scheme for maybe 15 years. There is little investment in the National Grid, which, as an industry insider, you will know is on the edge of disaster the whole year round.

I do have concerns about sourcing and recycling of batteries, but if I could wave a magic wand, I'd have a long range EV tomorrow. I still think 7 years is beyond the capability of the UK.
 
Macseasider said:
Imagine having to wait potentially hours at a service station?

I read an article by Nadine Dorries (yes I know) but she said she returned her EV after 5000 miles due to the anxiety it invokes. She said she was driving from the South to pick her mother up in Lytham and there was a tailback on the M6. It was winter so she had the heater on and the battery was just draining. She said she managed to just get to LSA and her daughter googled the nearest charge point which was Booths but it was out of order.
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Exactly, unless they can find a super quick way to charge, I just can’t see people wanting to change. They‘ve got some serious thinking to do.
 
I have recently returned from a 2750m driving holiday in an EV with zero range anxiety
My car will charge from 10-80% in 18 mins on the right type of charger - the time it takes to go to the loo
That said most of those miles were in Europe which has a far superior charging infrastructure - France is superb !
Here unless you are in a tesla the charging options can be limited particularly at busy times
When doing long distances in this country I normally drive at quiet times to avoid the risk of having to wait
We need fast charging bays at every services - none of this 50kw rubbish that halves the charge when the adjoining cable is used
We need to massively up our game
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Yeah, I wonder about that too.

We live in Rural Scotland, 550 miles from elderly and increasingly unwell family. When I need to get there, and it has happened a few times, particularly with my now deceased MiL, I need to get there. We live in a flat without a drive, we have 2 recycling plugs in the village, with thousands of visitors. All that forces us into the most modern diesel we can.

I admire your positivity re different power sources, and efficiency gains, and good luck to your business for being good enough to help all its employees, I wish there were more like you. However, the evidence of the last few years of rush to dividend rather than investment suggests businesses are not prepared to make major investment to reduce energy usage, and there has been no supported home insulation scheme for maybe 15 years. There is little investment in the National Grid, which, as an industry insider, you will know is on the edge of disaster the whole year round.

I do have concerns about sourcing and recycling of batteries, but if I could wave a magic wand, I'd have a long range EV tomorrow. I still think 7 years is beyond the capability of the UK.
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There's been a massive shift in attitude towards Energy Efficiency and Self Generation since CoVid / The Ukraine War and Associated price hikes. As I've said on other posts, these things have a habit of taking off relatively slowly, but then once momentum builds the pace of change becomes unstoppable.

You only have to look ate where we've come with Mobile technology and the changes that a simple 'hand held' device has prompted.... It's changed the way we shop, the high street, how we pay, how we communicate, our working practices, our lifestyle choices, where we choose to live just to name a few.... I mean I bet in your situation you couldn't imagine life without Mobile Technology (It's been a lifeline for many).

I'm not remotely pessimistic about our ability to generate the energy required and once again, I think people have a tendency to think in terms of what we have done in the past or what we already do and then consider the expansion of that as the way things will need to be done. Longer terms I really don't think that our energy problems will be solved by grids and transmission and pylons, so much as efficiency, self generation, heat capture and lifestyle changes. Oh and as an industry insider, I think the idea that the grid is always on the edge of disaster is a bit of a myth tbh. It's creaky and we certainly need investment, but I think you hear more about the scare stories than you actually see of them.

I get the issues with remote living although I spend a good deal of my time living remotely in South Wales and can't say that I have found much of an issue. Not unless you need to travel hundreds of miles in a day (and if you do) then you're going to come across a suitable charge point.

I'll leave it there, because I've already said enough, but I do think we have to be positive about the changes.... As I've said, people will always find a reason / excuse not to do something, but sometimes you just have to put one foot in front of the other and see where that takes you.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
I have recently returned from a 2750m driving holiday in an EV with zero range anxiety
My car will charge from 10-80% in 18 mins on the right type of charger - the time it takes to go to the loo
That said most of those miles were in Europe which has a far superior charging infrastructure - France is superb !
Here unless you are in a tesla the charging options can be limited particularly at busy times
When doing long distances in this country I normally drive at quiet times to avoid the risk of having to wait
We need fast charging bays at every services - none of this 50kw rubbish that halves the charge when the adjoining cable is used
We need to massively up our game
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It's been taking me longer to have a pee since reaching 50 and with a slightly enlarged prostate, but 18 Minutes... I feel your pain😵


Sorry... Couldn't resist mate😂
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
I have recently returned from a 2750m driving holiday in an EV with zero range anxiety
My car will charge from 10-80% in 18 mins on the right type of charger - the time it takes to go to the loo
That said most of those miles were in Europe which has a far superior charging infrastructure - France is superb !
Here unless you are in a tesla the charging options can be limited particularly at busy times
When doing long distances in this country I normally drive at quiet times to avoid the risk of having to wait
We need fast charging bays at every services - none of this 50kw rubbish that halves the charge when the adjoining cable is used
We need to massively up our game
Click to expand...

Were you on one of your "sojourns" (as John from the podcast calls it) Tim?!

As for 18 mins to charge. Well at least that gives the barista time to make your oat milk frappamocchalattechino.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
Not going to happen, UK would need to produce 12 to 15 times the amount of electricity it currently does.
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7 KW home charger overnight, assuming 20m BEV's, that would be 140 GW, so a bit under 5x current generation, and we could be producing more (by burning more gas).

Of course, not all BEV's are going to need charging at the same time, so the actual demand is likely to be less than half the above, and the petrol/diesel vehicles on the road in 2030 are likely to continue on the roads into the 2040's, at which point maybe all the dreams of the renewable energy salesmen might come true, so who knows where we'll be by then.

I wouldn't bank on it, though.
 
There are three major problems.

1) There are a lot of people that are currently living in terraced houses, flats, etc that will not be able to have access to their own charging point,

and instead of filling up every week or two will be requiring a charge every couple of days.

2) Battery vehicles tend to hold less and less charge as they age and the range fails, and are really expensive to repair when the batteries start to

fail. Will there be a shortage of reliable older vehicles for poorer people to run?

3) Hydrogen cars are much lighter and have a much greater range, Toyota is launching new hydrogen models now, and VW has a hydrogen car

developed with a 2000km range. They have hydrogen fuel cells and convert them into electricity to run electric motors. So it combines

zero emissions, long range, and the driving performance of electric vehicles.
 
Lala said:
What about solar panels on every car roof. Ugly as f, but job done 👍
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Energy from the sun is about 1 kw per metre squared across the planet. The predicted maximum efficiency to extract energy is about 50%, today it's around 30-35%. Solar panels on cars are only good for running peripherals.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Absolute Stone Cold Bollocks 👎
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My numbers were out somewhat but it's still a 3 to 5 fold increase in electricity requirement if the expectation is total electric vehicle use, about 300 billion vehicle miles. Even if it only requires a dobling of capacity to deal with domestic and light vehicle travel, building that capacity requires a massive commitment from government which it is unlikely to do, bearing in mind it's put most of the UK's electric production and infrastructure into foreign hands. On top of that you have the extended mining of rare earths for the batteries, so unless there is a massive increase in battery capacity and efficiency the plans for 2035 or even into the forties is simple pie in the sky, or PR for the green lobby.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
My numbers were out somewhat but it's still a 3 to 5 fold increase in electricity requirement if the expectation is total electric vehicle use, about 300 billion vehicle miles. Even if it only requires a dobling of capacity to deal with domestic and light vehicle travel, building that capacity requires a massive commitment from government which it is unlikely to do, bearing in mind it's put most of the UK's electric production and infrastructure into foreign hands. On top of that you have the extended mining of rare earths for the batteries, so unless there is a massive increase in battery capacity and efficiency the plans for 2035 or even into the forties is simple pie in the sky, or PR for the green lobby.
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Please stop!!
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
For starters, you’re probably only 10,000 miles in an EV before you’ve overcome any CO2 differential in build. Modern batteries have a life cycle of 100 - 200,000 miles.

Secondly EV batteries are recyclable and recycling options already exist.

Depreciation… What’s that ? Many have been appreciating in value 😂

Recharging - Most drivers will barely ever require the range and charging on the go is fast and straightforward and improving all the time… I mean who honestly drives more than a couple of hundred miles in one sitting - Answer (around 1% of the population max)

Ultimately generation will rely on sustainable sources and increased carbon efficiency. The plan is to move forwards and the only way to do that is to set targets and put one foot in front of the other…. The alternative is to do nothing, which achieves nothing.

Energy costs can be stabilised with attention and investment in infrastructure… The price for Fuel Oils will inevitably become increasingly volatile.

A lot of the fear / anxiety goes out the window once you change over.

What is it they say about “necessity”?

We’ll see an absolute explosion in technology over the next few years…. The ball is already rolling.
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My mate has an EV, and in winter was having to stop twice on the way to Blackpool to charge it, putting best part of two hours on the journey to and from South Yorkshire. Lights, radio etc all drain more than the equivalent fossil fuel vehicle.
 
Wizaard said:
My mate has an EV, and in winter was having to stop twice on the way to Blackpool to charge it, putting best part of two hours on the journey to and from South Yorkshire. Lights, radio etc all drain more than the equivalent fossil fuel vehicle.
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What's the vehicle..?... Doesn't sound like It's fit for purpose.
 
Macseasider said:
So the government plans for the whole of the UK to be driving electric vehicles by 2030 with petrol and diesel having a last stand of 2035.

2030 is less than 7 years away and the more I read from both car journalists and car manufacturers and sellers this is pie in the sky.

Not only can people not afford to purchase an electric vehicle but there is next to zero infrastructure to support it AND most importantly they are no better for the environment and will cost more to run.

Personally I've alway thought the idea of electric cars a load of bollocks and the charging of them requires immense use of fossil fuels anyway. I was always under the impression that until vehicles are run on hydrogen then it's a waste of time?

Thoughts?
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You’ve asked for thoughts and I think you’ve set the conversation up nicely with your own.

It’s not nice to see that one or two have badged anyone with doubts and concerns as negative.

There’s many questions to answer and many huge challenges ahead.

From an affordability perspective it’s easier for those that might get an electric vehicle via work or their business.

For me to replace my diesel taxi with an electric model it’s just unaffordable right now. And I don’t have the opportunity to plug such a vehicle in overnight.

I could talk about this topic until the cows come home. It’s very interesting and there’s so many angles. But in short, I doubt very much that the government targets can be met without some radical and generous trade in scheme.
Unfortunately what I think we’ll see instead is increasingly punitive measures against those who can’t afford to convert. So in effect, another tax on the less wealthy.

It is right though, that kids should be able to play in their school playground without having to breathe in toxic particles. The sooner we get there the better.

On that subject we also need to rid society of the wood burners that have become so popular in recent years. They are incredibly polluting and as harmful, if not more harmful, than diesel emissions.

Anyone who has one of these burners in their homes is blighting the community, harming the health of others, but also destroying their own health, silently but steadily.
 
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