Electric vehicles infrastructure

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

OK then
Drainage engineers,
Building contractors,

My work entails visiting many sites in Lancashire, & as a Local Govmnt officer, I need to show best value, so that means I HAVE to provide a car for work (written into my contract) & get the princely sum of 45p a mile..

Window cleaners
Delivery drivers

etc etc etc?

I used trains as surely no one relies upon buses? & Id love to use my bike, but a round trip to my sites in say Parbold, would require an overnight stop...

OK …

Well that’s fairly straightforward stuff really…

If you want to be in business as a Window Cleaner, then you need to purchase some Window Cleaning equipment.

If you want to be a Drainage Engineer, then you wouldn’t get too far without some Drainage Rods etc..

Well in future you’ll also need a suitable vehicle and that is most likely going to be an electric or other ‘Ultra Low Emissions’ vehicle… So it’s just another tool. In the interim if you need to take a Diesel Vehicle into certain areas, then you’d have to add the cost to serve into your customer prices.

Oh and my Window Cleaner used to do his rounds on a bicycle, so it’s not like there aren’t cheap options.

From your perspective…You’d obviously benefit from dropping your silly attitude towards advancing technology and getting an EV… in your line of work it would save you an absolute fortune and benefit the environment to boot… You’d never look back once you made the change…

 

[TSSeasider]

MrsTSS is just signed up for a new car. Second hand electric Corsa.

I'm about to find out how good/bad an idea it is!

 

[Limechase]

OK …

Well that’s fairly straightforward stuff really…

If you want to be in business as a Window Cleaner, then you need to purchase some Window Cleaning equipment.

If you want to be a Drainage Engineer, then you wouldn’t get too far without some Drainage Rods etc..

Well in future you’ll also need a suitable vehicle and that is most likely going to be an electric or other ‘Ultra Low Emissions’ vehicle… So it’s just another tool. In the interim if you need to take a Diesel Vehicle into certain areas, then you’d have to add the cost to serve into your customer prices.

Oh and my Window Cleaner used to do his rounds on a bicycle, so it’s not like there aren’t cheap options.

From your perspective…You’d obviously benefit from dropping your silly attitude towards advancing technology and getting an EV… in your line of work it would save you an absolute fortune and benefit the environment to boot… You’d never look back once you made the change…

Yes at this point I am against EV's, so we have a different view, & no one can (yet) say who is right. I cannot afford an EV, & you only have to look on Utube for the videos detailing the general issues/difficulties of EV ownership. One of my colleagues bought a 2yr old Nissan Leaf, & when he got it, the max range left in the battery was 90miles, & less when it was cold, I cant work with that uncertainty,

 

[Limechase]

For a balanced review from an EV owner, watch this?

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Yes at this point I am against EV's, so we have a different view, & no one can (yet) say who is right. I cannot afford an EV, & you only have to look on Utube for the videos detailing the general issues/difficulties of EV ownership. One of my colleagues bought a 2yr old Nissan Leaf, & when he got it, the max range left in the battery was 90miles, & less when it was cold, I cant work with that uncertainty,

Who's right about what?

I think that's the bloody trouble with this place... Too many people concerned about being right.

I'm not sure there is 'A right' when it comes to many of these things... Just lots of opinions and then the reality of what we are faced with.

We are moving to a world where polluters are going to be heavily penalised ad rightly so, in my opinion. So you can swim against the tide if you wish and you can search for reasons not to change (and trust me, you'll find plenty of them, because the world is full of excuse makers).

People will buy EV Cars and have problems, just like people who buy petrol and diesel cars will have problems with them... Buying an E.V. doesn't come with any guarantee that your vehicle is going to be fault free and the older (more miles) a vehicle is (has) then the more chance you'll encounter problems and it has ever been thus.

So how many miles do you do in a typical day ?
How often do you travel more than 200 Miles in a Day?
Do you have access to Off- Road Parking ?
How many Miles do you drive per year?
What would you spend on your next Petrol / Diesel Vehicle?
What size of Vehicle do you need?
What size Petrol / Diesel Engine?

 

[Rotterdam+Sussex_Seasider]

I know this isn't on the same lines as you are discussing but does anyone know if the new multi storey near the courts is designed to take electric cars on all floors

Interestingly, a multi storey in New York recently collapsed. Blaming it on heavy electric cars

 

[foggy]

Interestingly, a multi storey in New York recently collapsed. Blaming it on heavy electric cars

Who is? People online? Because the reporting is that it was old with outstanding violations which hadn't been fixed and had too many cars on the roof. Have you seen the size of the SUVs they have in America? Let's start a conversation about why we need such dangerous massive cars before we start talking about electric batteries.

 

[Malced]

The low cost solution is what I posted that you ignored before writing all that

What you actually did is to pour scorn over people’s genuine financial concerns. We all want cleaner air, but a punitive daily charge on the have-nots doesn’t seem fair to me.

 

[Malced]

Maybe we just have to accept that a car is not a 'right', but instead it's increasingly becoming a 'luxury item' and perhaps that is necessary in order that we can limit the number of vehicles and encourage people to use alternative forms of transport?

Cleaner Air for people to breath (whether they are on a low income or not) ought to be the collective priority... If that means folk might need to rethink the way they get from A to B, then that can only be a good thing.... And if it goes some way to resolving the absolute shit show that has become the norm around most schools these days, then it gets the thumbs up from me.

Well we can agree that cleaner air for all is a noble objective. But we are where we are and we have many folk who can’t afford to replace their polluting vehicle. Even though most of them would love too.
Not only can’t they afford to upgrade to their vehicle, but they are unable to afford to pay a daily charge of £12.50 in order to go about their daily lives. In a society where we have unfairness and many trapped in poverty, this only serves to cement these disparities.
The well off will be fine. They will avoid the charges. Your idea that we should start to accept that having a car is not right, won’t be realised by the ULEZ charge. What will happen by charging car users, is that eventually there’ll be many folk prices off the roads to achieve your vision. We’ll have those who can afford to drive, and those who can’t.
It’s like saying we should increase air fares to reduce air travel. Yeah it will indeed reduce travel. But it would mean air travel would be out of reach for the masses and only something for the rich.
I don’t think that’s that two tier society we should be aiming for or engineering. Instead we need cleaner forms of transport which society as whole pays for.
It’s nonsense that higher earners pay more income tax, yet the poorer members of society are in effect the ones having to pay these charges. It’s a tax on the poor that only the poorest will pay. That can’t be right. It’s the opposite to how income tax works. You shouldn’t tax the poorer more. And yeah you argue it ain’t a tax. But it actually is, if not in name.

 

[foggy]

What you actually did is to pour scorn over people’s genuine financial concerns. We all want cleaner air, but a punitive daily charge on the have-nots doesn’t seem fair to me.

No I didn't, I pointed out there are low cost solutions. I added my first line about how we agree in principle low income people shouldn't be taxed because I hoped you would read that in good faith but instead you ignored my point and went on a moral high ground attack instead of actually discussing the point. There are grants that are available to give people thousands for their 17+ year old cars. If more money is needed government should be doing more. Why aren't they?

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Well we can agree that cleaner air for all is a noble objective. But we are where we are and we have many folk who can’t afford to replace their polluting vehicle. Even though most of them would love too.
Not only can’t they afford to upgrade to their vehicle, but they are unable to afford to pay a daily charge of £12.50 in order to go about their daily lives. In a society where we have unfairness and many trapped in poverty, this only serves to cement these disparities.
The well off will be fine. They will avoid the charges. Your idea that we should start to accept that having a car is not right, won’t be realised by the ULEZ charge. What will happen by charging car users, is that eventually there’ll be many folk prices off the roads to achieve your vision. We’ll have those who can afford to drive, and those who can’t.
It’s like saying we should increase air fares to reduce air travel. Yeah it will indeed reduce travel. But it would mean air travel would be out of reach for the masses and only something for the rich.
I don’t think that’s that two tier society we should be aiming for or engineering. Instead we need cleaner forms of transport which society as whole pays for.
It’s nonsense that higher earners pay more income tax, yet the poorer members of society are in effect the ones having to pay these charges. It’s a tax on the poor that only the poorest will pay. That can’t be right. It’s the opposite to how income tax works. You shouldn’t tax the poorer more. And yeah you argue it ain’t a tax. But it actually is, if not in name.

We already have a tiered society (way more than ‘Two Tiers’ by the way).

Unfortunately that’s the reality of a free market economy and capitalism.

If you can’t afford a car, then you can’t have one… If you want one then get a job and save up.

Likewise the clean air zones…

Too many people think the world owes them a favour these days

 

[Malced]

We already have a tiered society (way more than ‘Two Tiers’ by the way).

Unfortunately that’s the reality of a free market economy and capitalism.

If you can’t afford a car, then you dang have one… Of you want one then get a job and save up.

Too many people think the world owes them a favour these days

Not at all. Keep up. We’re taking about people who do already have cars that they bought with their hard earned money. And that they bought in good faith.
But the goalposts have been moved through no doing of their own.
I think you said you have an electric vehicle. So your attitude smacks of I’m Alright Jack.
I’m not happy about the poorest being hit with these charges and pushed further into poverty. But you have a callous attitude towards them. Very disappointed in you tbh.

 

[Malced]

No I didn't, I pointed out there are low cost solutions. I added my first line about how we agree in principle low income people shouldn't be taxed because I hoped you would read that in good faith but instead you ignored my point and went on a moral high ground attack instead of actually discussing the point. There are grants that are available to give people thousands for their 17+ year old cars. If more money is needed government should be doing more. Why aren't they?

The government and the labour mayor haven’t done more because there’s too many that are happy to sanction their unfair policies. That is until recently, when they realised it’s gonna be a key election battle point.

Like I said before, you characterised this as unreasonable whingeing by the middle classes. But many of these people are struggling to get by, and they shouldn’t have to bear the brunt of some ideological tyrant on an ego trip.

 

[foggy]

The government and the labour mayor haven’t done more because there’s too many that are happy to sanction their unfair policies. That is until recently, when they realised it’s gonna be a key election battle point.

Like I said before, you characterised this as unreasonable whingeing by the middle classes. But many of these people are struggling to get by, and they shouldn’t have to bear the brunt of some ideological tyrant on an ego trip.

The government have clean air targets. So they gave the Mayor money for a scrappage scheme. He implemented it. If it needs more money the government should give him more. Simple stuff.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Not at all. Keep up. We’re taking about people who do already have cars that they bought with their hard earned money. And that they bought in good faith.
But the goalposts have been moved through no doing of their own.
I think you said you have an electric vehicle. So your attitude smacks of I’m Alright Jack.
I’m not happy about the poorest being hit with these charges and pushed further into poverty. But you have a callous attitude towards them. Very disappointed in you tbh.

I realise they have bought cars… mostly cheap shitty diesels that are chucking out particulates that cause respiratory issues for kids.

The worlds changing and so are the rules about where you can drive your dirty vehicles.

Wind the clock back 20-30 years and you might see one or two cars outside a school picking up / dropping off… These days it’s like some kind of 4x4 fume stinking congestion zone.

I’m not interested in the whole Bleeding Hearts Lefty moralising tropes. The best way out of poverty is to get yourself educated and work hard. I’m sorry, but being a failure isn’t an excuse to pollute

 

[TwelveAngryMen]

Couldn't agree more. That is why the public sector so often creates car parks in town centres as they are the only ones to be able to mobilise assets, when the private sector is fragmented in ownership and its own interests. The lack of electricity supply is a massive concern and dealing with the providers, as a developer, is much more problematic than any planning authority. The lack of charging points near the football ground is a disgrace especially as the council owns so much car parking.

There isn’t one charger delivering over 50kw in Blackpool

 

[Malced]

The government have clean air targets. So they gave the Mayor money for a scrappage scheme. He implemented it. If it needs more money the government should give him more. Simple stuff.

Haha. How politically biased is that? Anything the Labour London Mayor does that wins votes is down to him being Labour. A real man of the people.

But when he does something that unpopular and unfair it’s all the Government’s fault. He is a powerless mayor that is a front man stooge for the Government? He does what he’s told by number 10?

Quite simply you can’t entertain criticism of the London mayor and HIS policies purely because he’s Labour. It’s so transparent.

 

[Malced]

I realise they have bought cars… mostly cheap shitty diesels that are chucking out particulates that cause respiratory issues for kids.

The worlds changing and so are the rules about where you can drive your dirty vehicles.

Wind the clock back 20-30 years and you might see one or two cars outside a school picking up / dropping off… These days it’s like some kind of 4x4 fume stinking congestion zone.

I’m not interested in the whole Bleeding Hearts Lefty moralising tropes. The best way out of poverty is to get yourself educated and work hard. I’m sorry, but being a failure isn’t an excuse to pollute

As usual it’s a load of bigoted garbage from you. At least you don’t attempt to hide it. I’ll give you that. You have your own electric vehicle so you sit and moralise, and cast judgement on the thick peasants. You really are a class act.

I’ll not pushback on your comments too far - because when I do unpick your words, you reply to say you didn’t say what you just said.

So I’ll leave it at that. Other than to say there’s different ways to judge someone as a failure. When we have people with your bigoted attitude to hard working members of society, I’d say something’s gone very wrong somewhere.

 

[foggy]

Haha. How politically biased is that? Anything the Labour London Mayor does that wins votes is down to him being Labour. A real man of the people.

But when he does something that unpopular and unfair it’s all the Government’s fault. He is a powerless mayor that is a front man stooge for the Government? He does what he’s told by number 10?

Quite simply you can’t entertain criticism of the London mayor and HIS policies purely because he’s Labour. It’s so transparent.

The government has written clean air targets into law - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukds...4 sets the target,metre by 31st December 2040.

The government gave money for scrappage schemes to Manchester, Bristol, Birmingham and Portsmouth but none to London. So as opposed to other Mayors, Khan had to come up with the funds out of his budget, giving 110m in grants for low income people. https://www.london.gov.uk/biggest-e...ayor-help-businesses-charities-low-income-and

 

[Malced]

The government has written clean air targets into law - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukds...4 sets the target,metre by 31st December 2040.

The government gave money for scrappage schemes to Manchester, Bristol, Birmingham and Portsmouth but none to London. So as opposed to other Mayors, Khan had to come up with the funds out of his budget, giving 110m in grants for low income people. https://www.london.gov.uk/biggest-e...ayor-help-businesses-charities-low-income-and

Heaven knows why Starmer asked Khan to reconsider when according to you it’s all out of their hands. How bizarre. Poor Kier needs to be given a lesson in how government works, does he?

 

[foggy]

Heaven knows why Starmer asked Khan to reconsider when according to you it’s all out of their hands. How bizarre. Poor Kier needs to be given a lesson in how government works, does he?

I don't really know what this reply has to do with anything I have written on this thread. I would hope that whoever is in government will do better than giving money to some cities and refusing to make the same investment in others.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

As usual it’s a load of bigoted garbage from you. At least you don’t attempt to hide it. I’ll give you that. You have your own electric vehicle so you sit and moralise, and cast judgement on the thick peasants. You really are a class act.

I’ll not pushback on your comments too far - because when I do unpick your words, you reply to say you didn’t say what you just said.

So I’ll leave it at that. Other than to say there’s different ways to judge someone as a failure. When we have people with your bigoted attitude to hard working members of society, I’d say something’s gone very wrong somewhere.

It’s not personal… I just think it’s easy to always go down the ‘PLOM’ route with these things. It not like there aren’t alternative forms of transport and it’s in all our interests to keep the heavy polluters out of high risk areas.

What should we do ? Hand out free Electric Cars? Just allow folk to drive their clapped out chuggers wherever they like? Let them off the charge ?

There’s nothing bigoted about it… And frankly it’s totally ridiculous to use a term like that.

I just don’t get what kind of world we live in these days where folk just think they have a god given right to have everything on a platter.

We need to get back to some good old British Values and start re-employing the phase ‘Tough Shit’ more often…It might knock a few people into shape…

Life ain’t fair… you can’t always do what you want, afford what others can etc… Get the Bus, jump on a bike, use Shanks’ Pony… Maybe folk might shed a few pounds…

 

[Chunkylad]

MrsTSS is just signed up for a new car. Second hand electric Corsa.

I'm about to find out how good/bad an idea it is!

That’s really interesting from this thread point of view TS.
A small second hand reasonably priced EV is the market that many are scared of buying in

Please update us with honestly how you both get on with it?

 

[TSSeasider]

That’s really interesting from this thread point of view TS.
A small second hand reasonably priced EV is the market that many are scared of buying in

Please update us with honestly how you both get on with it?

We are going on holiday tomorrow, so will be picking it up on or return in two weeks.

We've paid £16k, for a 21 plate, 50kw, with 8000 miles on the clock but that includes an optional extra one year warranty which wouldn't normally have been taken, but given the nature of a first EV - we have decided it's prudent for an extra £400 or so.

Minus the trade in we are looking at about £10k

The insurance is higher than her original insurance, but the car, on paper at least, is worth over double and as we all know insurance companies have put premiums up by about 25% in the last year. It didn't feel unreasonable.

We've also purchased the new domestic charging point (7.5kw/hr) which will be about £1100 once it's fitted. We are fortunate to have a drive so that's much less of a worry. It will also be able to draw power from the solar panels.

Looking online, it appears her cheapest way to charge it (other than the regular glorious sunny days doing it for us!) is at the university she works at and potentially Tesco - but she needs to investigate further.

It will be interesting to see how it goes and I'll share it here.

 

[TwelveAngryMen]

We are going on holiday tomorrow, so will be picking it up on or return in two weeks.

We've paid £16k, for a 21 plate, 50kw, with 8000 miles on the clock but that includes an optional extra one year warranty which wouldn't normally have been taken, but given the nature of a first EV - we have decided it's prudent for an extra £400 or so.

Minus the trade in we are looking at about £10k

The insurance is higher than her original insurance, but the car, on paper at least, is worth over double and as we all know insurance companies have put premiums up by about 25% in the last year. It didn't feel unreasonable.

We've also purchased the new domestic charging point (7.5kw/hr) which will be about £1100 once it's fitted. We are fortunate to have a drive so that's much less of a worry. It will also be able to draw power from the solar panels.

Looking online, it appears her cheapest way to charge it (other than the regular glorious sunny days doing it for us!) is at the university she works at and potentially Tesco - but she needs to investigate further.

It will be interesting to see how it goes and I'll share it here.

It's not as cheap as it was charging at home unless you have solar / cheap overnight elec
Used to cost me £11 for 250m - it's now £28
Rapid charging can be dear unless you have a discount card ( mine is 30p per kw rather that 69p on the ultra rapid ones I can use ) but if you are using it mainly for local driving you'll rarely need to rapid charge
We need far more ultra rapid chargers as the 50kw ones simply aren't quick enough and that creates bottlenecks

 

[Malced]

It’s not personal… I just think it’s easy to always go down the ‘PLOM’ route with these things. It not like there aren’t alternative forms of transport and it’s in all our interests to keep the heavy polluters out of high risk areas.

What should we do ? Hand out free Electric Cars? Just allow folk to drive their clapped out chuggers wherever they like? Let them off the charge ?

There’s nothing bigoted about it… And frankly it’s totally ridiculous to use a term like that.

I just don’t get what kind of world we live in these days where folk just think they have a god given right to have everything on a platter.

We need to get back to some good old British Values and start re-employing the phase ‘Tough Shit’ more often…It might knock a few people into shape…

Life ain’t fair… you can’t always do what you want, afford what others can etc… Get the Bus, jump on a bike, use Shanks’ Pony… Maybe folk might shed a few pounds…

Bigoted means having strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life

I’d say your comments on this thread show you to fit that definition.

You’ve gone off on one about people thinking they’ve a god given right to have everything on a platter. No one has said that. No one but you.

There’s hard working people, many with children, who work hard and pay their per bills but are struggling to get by. There’s the squeeze on wages, the cost of living issues and the inflationary pressures. They’ve seen gas and electric bills go through the roof, as well as huge increases on food and groceries.

A lot of these folk have cars that aren’t as you say ‘cheap shitty diesels’ but would have cost quite a few thousand pounds. Now through no fault of their own, on top of all the other financial pressures, they face having to find an extra £12.50 a day just to go about their lives.

You’ve painted these people as failures and wanting something for nothing. That’s incredibly bigoted.

Government and council green policies shouldn’t hit the poorest the most. There needs to be a better way to reach our goals as we transition to electric vehicles only.

Andy Burnham has paused the Manchester CAZ as he is concerned about the impact on people who would face the charge, and be driven deeper into poverty. At least he is showing some understanding and compassion.

For avoidance of doubt, I don’t use the term bigoted lightly.

You said ‘being a failure isn’t an excuse to pollute’. That’s an awful thing to say.

 

[Chunkylad]

We are going on holiday tomorrow, so will be picking it up on or return in two weeks.

We've paid £16k, for a 21 plate, 50kw, with 8000 miles on the clock but that includes an optional extra one year warranty which wouldn't normally have been taken, but given the nature of a first EV - we have decided it's prudent for an extra £400 or so.

Minus the trade in we are looking at about £10k

The insurance is higher than her original insurance, but the car, on paper at least, is worth over double and as we all know insurance companies have put premiums up by about 25% in the last year. It didn't feel unreasonable.

We've also purchased the new domestic charging point (7.5kw/hr) which will be about £1100 once it's fitted. We are fortunate to have a drive so that's much less of a worry. It will also be able to draw power from the solar panels.

Looking online, it appears her cheapest way to charge it (other than the regular glorious sunny days doing it for us!) is at the university she works at and potentially Tesco - but she needs to investigate further.

It will be interesting to see how it goes and I'll share it here.

Sounds like a nice little buy?

Obviously servicing is dirt cheap as you’ve nothing to effectively go wrong on it in terms of moving parts so it’s just battery, breaks and software.

I’ve had a pod point fitted at home 3 years ago. Your battery is quite small at 50kw but then it is a much smaller and lighter car so looks like you’ll get range of around 180-200 miles.

I googled so at home it’ll charge in under 7 hours to full but you’ll never run it to empty so probably more like 5 hours.

You can use upto 100kw fast chargers (download Zap map if you haven’t already) so it is likely using one of them you will be done in 15-20 mins.

So probably once a week charging it at home whilst it’s not being used (we do ours overnight it stops charging once it hits max) and that’ll still be really cheap (less than £20 to fill up for sure - maybe next of £0 if you are topping with solar)

The couple of times a year when you do a long journey using Zap map and the fast chargers. Done in 15 mins

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Bigoted means having strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life

I’d say your comments on this thread show you to fit that definition.

You’ve gone off on one about people thinking they’ve a god given right to have everything on a platter. No one has said that. No one but you.

There’s hard working people, many with children, who work hard and pay their per bills but are struggling to get by. There’s the squeeze on wages, the cost of living issues and the inflationary pressures. They’ve seen gas and electric bills go through the roof, as well as huge increases on food and groceries.

A lot of these folk have cars that aren’t as you say ‘cheap shitty diesels’ but would have cost quite a few thousand pounds. Now through no fault of their own, on top of all the other financial pressures, they face having to find an extra £12.50 a day just to go about their lives.

You’ve painted these people as failures and wanting something for nothing. That’s incredibly bigoted.

Government and council green policies shouldn’t hit the poorest the most. There needs to be a better way to reach our goals as we transition to electric vehicles only.

Andy Burnham has paused the Manchester CAZ as he is concerned about the impact on people who would face the charge, and be driven deeper into poverty. At least he is showing some understanding and compassion.

For avoidance of doubt, I don’t use the term bigoted lightly.

You said ‘being a failure isn’t an excuse to pollute’. That’s an awful thing to say.

Well firstly, my views aren't strong, they're not unreasonable and I don't dislike other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life. So you've offered up a wholly unreasonable term, but that's no surprise, because for you (at least) this IS personal, that much has become very obvious, because every conversation we have develops into you attacking me personally, rather than focusing on the subject. It's fine,of course, but I just feel it would be better if we could focus on the topic , rather than calling each other names perhaps?

I haven't painted people as anything... I've challenged the argument that suggests that laws to prevent harm to the environment and, more importantly directly to people's health and well-being, should be softened on the basis of 'affordability'. I mean perhaps we should also allow these 'poor people' to kill off a family member occasionally too, if things get a bit too expensive? (I realise it's an extreme, example, but where does it end? - when does it go too far?)

As for hitting poor people the most, it's somewhat inevitable, in a society that is fundamentally based around the notion that the overwhelming majority of wealth be held by a tiny percentage of the population, that those at the lower end of the spectrum, will get the worst of it. However, you aren't going to make that situation any better by continually wrapping cotton wool around those individuals and hiding them away from the reality and consequences of their situation. It requires a concerted effort to educate and provide the opportunities and well paid jobs that enable people to lift themselves out of their situation.

That said, I draw the line quite differently to you here... I believe that it's not only reasonable, but it's also desirable to have people using alternative forms of transport in High Risk areas. So I don't view not being able to afford an EV or to use a heavy polluting vehicle in and around schools or City Centres as some kind of massive infringement on peoples lives... Just like I don't see the cliched 50 Inch wide screen TV as one of life's necessities either. That's not to say, I don't think we ought to offer a high quality public transport network, but I just think you come at it (the problem) from an 'arse about tit' mentality.

I've painted the kind of mentality that you describe in your post... i.e. the kind of excuse making and Lilly Livered Lefty mentality that assumes that lack of affordability (for some) should automatically either a) rule out positive change altogether or b) requires some kind of government / social support to attain parity with people with more money. And as far as I'm concerned, the inability to get off you arse and find solutions to the problems that life presents and instead always expecting someone else to pick up your tab instead, is failure. (That's not aimed at any individual or group, but at the kind of defeatist (hand out requiring) mentality that you are promoting)

'Compassion' is always the central theme of the Left and there's always an assumption that in being 'compassionate' as opposed to practical, that you somehow hold the 'morality' card. It's a lame argument

 

[Lost Seasider]

We've paid £16k, for a 21 plate, 50kw, with 8000 miles on the clock but that includes an optional extra one year warranty which wouldn't normally have been taken, but given the nature of a first EV - we have decided it's prudent for an extra £400 or so.

They're ~£35,000 new, are they not? In which case someone has lost £20,000 over 8,000 miles, or £2.50 per mile.

Ouch!

 

[Malced]

I’m busy working. So I’ve just skimmed this. I’m might reply in full later.

But in short you claim your views aren’t strong. Well I’d say they’re very strong and very controversial. Far right in fact.

You’ve effectively labelled lower earners as uneducated and failures. Yet on the thread about low value degrees you make the case for education of all topics no matter the link to subsequent earnings.

So your arguments are all over the place.

There will be very highly educated people who can’t afford to upgrade their cars. Yet you’ve summed them all up as dossers and failures who can either get educated or walk.

Then you claim to be a victim of my personal attack. Well of course if you personally make such contemptible comments, you’re going to called out on them.

Funnily enough it’s taken me to do that. Someone you’ve previously called Nazi and fascist. Yet now I’m all lefty apprarently.

Conspicuous by their silence are the left leaning posters on here. Seemingly they’re happy for you to condemn the poor and label them as failures.

Seems they’ll only speak up when it’s someone they have an issue with, but for you they stay quiet.

That’s another glaring hypocrisy of this site. Shame on you and shame on them too.

Your comments are vile and reprehensible. Utterly reprehensible. Boo boo if that’s taken personally.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Used to cost me £11 for 250m - it's now £28

So, in petrol terms, the equivalent of ~£1.00/litre, or in diesel terms ~£1.80, or if fuel duty was applied in the same way £1.85 and £2.80.

That's not exactly cheap, given that both liquid fuels are £1.40 - £1.50 at the moment.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I’m busy working. So I’ve just skimmed this. I’m might reply in full later.

But in short you claim your views aren’t strong. Well I’d say they’re very strong and very controversial. Far right in fact.

You’ve effectively labelled lower earners as uneducated and failures. Yet on the thread about low value degrees you make the case for education of all topics no matter the link to subsequent earnings.

So your arguments are all over the place.

There will be very highly educated people who can’t afford to upgrade their cars. Yet you’ve summed them all up as dossers and failures who can either get educated or walk.

Then you claim to be a victim of my personal attack. Well of course if you personally make such contemptible comments, you’re going to called out on them.

Funnily enough it’s taken me to do that. Someone you’ve previously called Nazi and fascist. Yet know I’m all lefty apprarently.

Conspicuous by their silence are the left leaning posters on here. Seemingly they’re happy for you to condemn the poor and label them as failures.

Seems they’ll only speak up when it’s someone they have an issue with, but for you they stay quiet.

That’s another glaring hypocrisy of this site. Shame on you and shame on them too.

Your comments are vile and reprehensible. Utterly reprehensible. Boo boo if that’s taken personally.

What a ridiculous second sentence... Absolutely laughable.

I haven't labelled lower earners as uneducated failures.... That's another Straw-Man that you've created. I've said that the best way out of Poverty is through Education and Hard Work.... And I said that 'failure, isn't an excuse to pollute'.

And yes... I did make the case for education on all topics, irrespective of subsequent earnings, because I recognise that value exists in education and educated individuals, beyond simplistic financial measures. An individuals worth or value isn't determined by their financial status, but rather by their competence and capability. Similarly, failure isn't defined by a lack of finance, but instead the lack of competence or willingness to find a solution that fits your circumstance.

I've not called you a lefty either... (I've referenced a mentality, not a person).

I'm also not condemning 'The Poor' or 'Labeling them as failures', I'm condemning the kind of mentality that you are promoting and saying that failure isn't an excuse to pollute. It serves you (and your argument) to try and label me as heartless or 'Far Right', rather than to try and focus on what is being said, and no doubt we will end up going round in more silly circles, generally discussing nothing and not listening or hearing as usual.

As I said, It's no skin off my nose how you choose to 'debate' whether that be your typical 'Play the man not the ball' approach or not. I'm not offended or hurt by your comments, I just don't see that they add any value to the discussion and simply serve to divert us away from the subject.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

So, in petrol terms, the equivalent of ~£1.00/litre, or in diesel terms ~£1.80, or if fuel duty was applied in the same way £1.85 and £2.80.

That's not exactly cheap, given that both liquid fuels are £1.40 - £1.50 at the moment.

No... More like around £0.55 - £0.65 per litre for Petrol, if not less... It's super high powered vehicle, not a Mobility Scooter

They're ~£35,000 new, are they not? In which case someone has lost £20,000 over 8,000 miles, or £2.50 per mile.

Ouch!

Probably more like £28 - £29K new and so that's around £12-£13K depreciation...

 

[TSSeasider]

They're ~£35,000 new, are they not? In which case someone has lost £20,000 over 8,000 miles, or £2.50 per mile.

Ouch!

I've no idea as there was no chance we could afford new; it looked like a good buy and it's the right time for us as MrsTSS's petrol car is about ready to be moved on.

I think they've brought out a new model as well which will mean them wanting to move the older versions on.

Time will tell whether it's a wise move; fingers crossed it is.

 

[TSSeasider]

It's not as cheap as it was charging at home unless you have solar / cheap overnight elec
Used to cost me £11 for 250m - it's now £28
Rapid charging can be dear unless you have a discount card ( mine is 30p per kw rather that 69p on the ultra rapid ones I can use ) but if you are using it mainly for local driving you'll rarely need to rapid charge
We need far more ultra rapid chargers as the 50kw ones simply aren't quick enough and that creates bottlenecks

Our thought process is her regular driving is around town and maybe twice a week to and from Sunderland (about 40 miles) - if we can use the solar then it's free and I'm sure there's the option of relatively inexpensive charging at her work.

Any kind of distance and we'll using my diesel Mondeo!

 

[Wizaard]

OK then
Drainage engineers,
Building contractors,

My work entails visiting many sites in Lancashire, & as a Local Govmnt officer, I need to show best value, so that means I HAVE to provide a car for work (written into my contract) & get the princely sum of 45p a mile..

Window cleaners
Delivery drivers

etc etc etc?

I used trains as surely no one relies upon buses? & Id love to use my bike, but a round trip to my sites in say Parbold, would require an overnight stop...

Our car rate at work has just risen to 30p from the 23p it's been for the last 25 years. Another example of the generosity of Government to its workforce.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

I haven't labelled lower earners as uneducated failures.... That's another Straw-Man that you've created. I've said that the best way out of Poverty is through Education and Hard Work.... And I said that 'failure, isn't an excuse to pollute'.

Maybe unintentionally, but you seemed to link poverty with failure, which at the very least is distasteful, at worst it is offensive. People have all sorts of reasons for their personal situations, some of which are outside of their control. And of course, the amount of money that a person has is not, IMO, the only measure of having a fulfilling and successful life.

I happen to have one of the more 'polluting' cars - a diesel 2014 Yaris that I bought in 2016. There was actually a tax incentive to buy (there is no road tax on this car) because at that time the government thought that fuel efficient cars were the way forward as regards the environment. I bought it because it was cheap to run (I don't drive very often) and Toyota have a great reliability record. So somebody who bought that car new may have felt that they were actually doing a good thing for the environment when they bought it.

I would be able to replace it if I need to, but in this anecdote illustrates that things are often not so black and white as your posts sometimes seem to suggest.

 

[Chunkylad]

They're ~£35,000 new, are they not? In which case someone has lost £20,000 over 8,000 miles, or £2.50 per mile.

Ouch!

You should see a he depreciation on many cars bought for £35k new.
Or for that point any new Range Rover

 

[Lost Seasider]

You should see a he depreciation on many cars bought for £35k new.
Or for that point any new Range Rover

A petrol Corsa of similar age and mileage costs between £12,000 to £18,000, depending on spec, but would've cost low to mid twenties new.

£35,000 cars come with big potential repair bills attached, hence the depreciation, that shouldn't apply to an electric Corsa, and even then a BMW 1 series costing £30,000+ new is still costing £18,000+ for absolute base spec cars with 30,000+ miles on the clock.

The Corsa-e, at least, seems to be losing its value a lot faster than logic would suggest.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Maybe unintentionally, but you seemed to link poverty with failure, which at the very least is distasteful, at worst it is offensive. People have all sorts of reasons for their personal situations, some of which are outside of their control. And of course, the amount of money that a person has is not, IMO, the only measure of having a fulfilling and successful life.

I happen to have one of the more 'polluting' cars - a diesel 2014 Yaris that I bought in 2016. There was actually a tax incentive to buy (there is no road tax on this car) because at that time the government thought that fuel efficient cars were the way forward as regards the environment. I bought it because it was cheap to run (I don't drive very often) and Toyota have a great reliability record. So somebody who bought that car new may have felt that they were actually doing a good thing for the environment when they bought it.

I would be able to replace it if I need to, but in this anecdote illustrates that things are often not so black and white as your posts sometimes seem to suggest.

I link the inability or unwillingness to adopt straightforward solutions to a problem as failure and this idea that a solution involves throwing your hands up in the air with an expectation that someone else should sort it for you.

I’ve not measured or sought to measure anyone by their earnings, quite the contrary as per my post above.

I’ll admit to perhaps playfully confronting one of our more ‘right wing’ posters with a slice of irony if I have to

Appreciate the point you are making and I can understand why people might be upset by the introduction of Clean Air Zones, but we have access to more information, the scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports the need to reduce particulates and emissions for public health reasons and that has to be the priority. To that extent ‘can’t afford’ is good, because it forces change. I mean we can’t rely on altruism, that’s for sure.

So I just think it’s a flimsy argument to always adopt the ‘let’s all feel sorry for poor folk’ approach.

If Malced and his political associates want to genuinely help these poor folk (the ones who seem to emerge whenever the need arises to assume the moral high ground, but who get ignored when it suits) then there are more fundamental societal issues that need to be addressed… One of which might be a step away from the kind of rabid consumerism that has driven the ridiculous number of motor vehicles on our roads in the first place and also the “I want, I must have” attitude of society in general…. Of course, not pumping shit into the air that people breath, funding better education and healthcare and developing more opportunity might also be a decent idea.

 

[JOHNMAJORTOM]

wow SOME heated debate out there. at around 5 pm my son will arrive in his Jaguar Espace EV. HE just loves the convience and ability to travel for work. Whch i might mention . AS a self employed financial adviser/ broker. You wot get him going back to diesel/ too expensive . And Jaguar will quickly provide a replacement vehicle if needed. its simply cost effective. AND we get to BLOOMERS SHIT QUICK.

 

[Malced]

I link the inability or unwillingness to adopt straightforward solutions to a problem as failure and this idea that a solution involves throwing your hands up in the air with an expectation that someone else should sort it for you.

I’ve not measured or sought to measure anyone by their earnings, quite the contrary as per my post above.

I’ll admit to perhaps playfully confronting one of our more ‘right wing’ posters with a slice of irony if I have to

Appreciate the point you are making and I can understand why people might be upset by the introduction of Clean Air Zones, but we have access to more information, the scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports the need to reduce particulates and emissions for public health reasons and that has to be the priority. To that extent ‘can’t afford’ is good, because it forces change. I mean we can’t rely on altruism, that’s for sure.

So I just think it’s a flimsy argument to always adopt the ‘let’s all feel sorry for poor folk’ approach.

If Malced and his political associates want to genuinely help these poor folk (the ones who seem to emerge whenever the need arises to assume the moral high ground, but who get ignored when it suits) then there are more fundamental societal issues that need to be addressed… One of which might be a step away from the kind of rabid consumerism that has driven the ridiculous number of motor vehicles on our roads in the first place and also the “I want, I must have” attitude of society in general…. Of course, not pumping shit into the air that people breath, funding better education and healthcare and developing more opportunity might also be a decent idea.

I see you're now trying to water down your comments following a challenge from someone else.

In the context of a discussion about poorer people being impacted adversely by these green charges, you said failure isn't an excuse to pollute, and that education in the best way out of poverty. So they need to educate themselves, earn more, and in doing so elevate themselves from their failure status as you see it. Never mind that some people aren't academic, or may have a caring responsibility. or may have had kids at a young age so couldn't go to uni, or may indeed be well educated but do not earn much for various reasons.

Well yes that's indeed bigoted and offensive - but what's this - you were being playful. Oh I see. Playful. That's not within my definition of playful but there's nowt as queer as folk as they say. To me it looks like you're trying be creative with words to try and present yourself in a better light. You were just being playful. Hmm. Nice try. But it doesn't wash. You've revealed your true colours.

With regards to your other tactic, to say I'm playing the man not the topic, you really are kidding no-one.

I've not criticised you for anything other than your comments. I've not criticised your ethnicity, size, gender, occupation, interests, hair colour, sexual orientation, dress sense or anything else. All I've done is say that I find your attitude and your comments bigoted and reprehensible.

I know very little about you. But you choose to comment on here and give your opinions as is your right. But it's my right to say I find your comments extremely distasteful, and they show you to be bigoted against people based on their education and socio-economic status. You can't simply disassociate yourself from your own words. You should be mature enough to own your own words. The words are from you, and reveal your values and your attitudes. So when criticised for expressing bigoted comments, its a weak defence to try and deflect by saying I'm playing the man. You and your words are part of the same entity. If you say bigoted words, you are bigoted. You did. You are. You were not being 'playful'.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I see you're now trying to water down your comments following a challenge from someone else.

In the context of a discussion about poorer people being impacted adversely by these green charges, you said failure isn't an excuse to pollute, and that education in the best way out of poverty. So they need to educate themselves, earn more, and in doing so elevate themselves from their failure status as you see it.

Well yes that's indeed bigoted and offensive - but what's this - you were being playful. Oh I see. Playful. That's not within my definition of playful but there's nowt as queer as folk as they say. To me it looks like you're trying be creative with words to try and present yourself in a better light. You were just being playful. Hmm. Nice try. But it doesn't wash. You've revealed your true colours.

With regards to your other tactic, to say I'm playing the man not the topic, you really are kidding no-one.

I've not criticised you for anything other than your comments. I've not criticised your ethnicity, size, gender, occupation, interests, hair colour, sexual orientation, dress sense or anything else. All I've done is say that I find your attitude and your comments bigoted and reprehensible.

I know very little about you. But you choose to comment on here and give your opinions as is your right. But it's my right to say I find your comments extremely distasteful, and they show you to be bigoted against people based on their education and socio-economic status. You can't simply disassociate yourself from your own words. You should be mature enough to own your own words. The words are from you, and reveal your values and your attitudes. So when criticised for expressing bigoted comments, its a weak defence to try and deflect by saying I'm playing the man. You and your words are part of the same entity. If you say bigoted words, you are bigoted. You did. You are. You were not being 'playful'.

I'm not watering anything down... Just explained them (as I've already done to you) - Maybe try reading what I have written?

You're putting a spin on what I said... As usual... So if you wish to argue with a point I haven't made (as usual) rather than accept the clarification, then that's your choice, I can't stop you.

As I see it, the best route out of poverty is through education and hard work... I think we need to aim and focus our resources on competency rather than dependency.... The 'Teach a man to fish analogy'! I don't view that as a bigoted perspective, but if you do, then that's fine.

In addition, I also believe that people need to take responsibility for themselves and I don't agree that simply throwing your arms up in the air and adopting a 'can't do' attitude is an excuse. As I see it that is 'being a failure'. And too many people have too many ready rolled excuses these days to justify personal failure.

In fact, I'll go further and say that people even get offended by the mere suggestion that someone could possibly be a failure... "What a wicked suggestion"!!... Well they can, and there's plenty of them... ready to blame anyone and everything else but themselves for their lot...

I remember having a conversation years ago with someone who ended up failing to have agreed weekly contact with their child (following a marital break up), because they didn't have a car and supposedly 'couldn't afford' the £1.50 train journey required. What they meant was, they were a complete failure and couldn't be arsed... Fact is that any half decent parent, would have walked bare foot over broken glass every week, rather than missed out on seeing their child....

And that's the reality here.... Continuing to drive these dirty vehicles in High Risk areas, simply isn't an option.... So people will need to sort out a solution for themselves, because being a failure is not good enough.

 

[Malced]

I'm not watering anything down... Just explained them (as I've already done to you) - Maybe try reading what I have written?

You're putting a spin on what I said... As usual... So if you wish to argue with a point I haven't made (as usual) rather than accept the clarification, then that's your choice, I can't stop you.

As I see it, the best route out of poverty is through education and hard work... I think we need to aim and focus our resources on competency rather than dependency.... The 'Teach a man to fish analogy'! I don't view that as a bigoted perspective, but if you do, then that's fine.

In addition, I also believe that people need to take responsibility for themselves and I don't agree that simply throwing your arms up in the air and adopting a 'can't do' attitude is an excuse. As I see it that is 'being a failure'. And too many people have too many ready rolled excuses these days to justify personal failure.

In fact, I'll go further and say that people even get offended by the mere suggestion that someone could possibly be a failure... "What a wicked suggestion"!!... Well they can, and there's plenty of them... ready to blame anyone and everything else but themselves for their lot...

I remember having a conversation years ago with someone who ended up failing to have agreed weekly contact with their child (following a marital break up), because they didn't have a car and supposedly 'couldn't afford' the £1.50 train journey required. What they meant was, they were a complete failure and couldn't be arsed... Fact is that any half decent parent, would have walked bare foot over broken glass every week, rather than missed out on seeing their child....

And that's the reality here.... Continuing to drive these dirty vehicles in High Risk areas, simply isn't an option.... So people will need to sort out a solution for themselves, because being a failure is not good enough.

I don't think I've ever read such utter drivel.

You're waffling on about people being failures in the context of them being hit with new ULEZ charges for driving vehicles which they purchased in good faith, but now find the goalposts have moved.

Why on earth you've brought in an anecdote about one bad parent I don't know. I think you're losing it.

There's many hardworking decent citizens struggling to get by and they absolutely don't need these new charges on top of everything else. Your preaching about them needing to get better educated rather than being resigned to being a failure is bizarre to say the least.

I'm done with you now. I am not wasting my time with someone who is so clearly bigoted and judgemental.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I don't think I've ever read such utter drivel.

You're waffling on about people being failures in the context of them being hit with new ULEZ charges for driving vehicles which they purchased in good faith, but now find the goalposts have moved.

Why on earth you've brought in an anecdote about one bad parent I don't know. I think you're losing it.

There's many hardworking decent citizens struggling to get by and they absolutely don't need these new charges on top of everything else. Your preaching about them needing to get better educated rather than being resigned to being a failure is bizarre to say the least.

I'm done with you now. I am not wasting my time with someone who is so clearly bigoted and judgemental.

I’m describing an attitude or mentality. So I recounted a personal example of that type of mentality.

What’s your objective here?

The reference originally came about, because I was challenging your argument and an attitude that appeared to be suggest that because this charge has some moderately negative consequences (I.e. some people can’t afford to pay it) that it shouldn’t be implemented and that people should be free to just pollute regardless.

Surely not being able to afford it is the point really?

So I was referencing the mentality that you seem to be describing of being incapable of resolving a simple issue. A mentality that essentially says..

1. I want to keep my shit splurting vehicle.
2. I don’t want to pay the charge for the privilege of poisoning others as a result.
3. I’m completely incapable of engaging with perfectly reasonable alternatives, because they pose me moderate inconvenience.
So who are these people Malced? And what is their / your justification for their stance?

And what are you on about? ‘Vehicles purchased in good faith’ ?

I mean unless you’ve knowingly purchased a stolen vehicle, pretty much everyone buys a vehicle in good faith… What the fuck has that got to do with anything?

The requirement is to resolve an issue with pollution. There isn’t a different system for people who bought a vehicle in good faith’… The system relates to vehicles which are heavy polluters (Any socially responsible individual can check the emissions rating of a vehicle prior to purchase).

Goalposts moved?

It’s just new legislation, based on new evidence. And there’s been a concerted effort to encourage people to utilise alternative (less polluting) forms of transport in London for well over a 20 years.

The schemes impacts around 10 % of vehicles only. (So Petrol vehicles over 17 years old and Diesels over 8 years old) and there is a scrappage scheme. Alternatively people can have their vehicles retrofitted or alternatively sell their vehicle / trade in their vehicle.

I’m sure there are hardworking decent people who don’t need these charges on top of everything else, but unfortunately the emissions from their vehicles are negatively impacting the health of others and so just like all those unfortunate folk who had the inconvenience of not poisoning our collective lungs with their cigarette smoke, these hardworking souls will need to either a) get a cleaner vehicle b) utilise public transport or c) walk or cycle.

The fact that you are championing their right to cause harm to others (irrespective of the faith in which they bought their vehicle - probably blind faith in a lot of cases) doesn’t give you the right to assume the moral high ground.

It seem ls to me that you’re always “done with” someone or other on here. Usually anyone who has the audacity to challenge your right to dominate the board with your own opinions.

You’re all fine and dandy smiles and handshakes when folk agree with you. Ignorant and arsey when they don’t…

If you struggle to engage with people who disagree with you then tough shit… It makes no odds to me.. I’m happy to engage with anyone.. I’m cool with anyone expressing any views (especially ones I disagree with or find the most challenging to understand)… bring it on

That’s exactly what the problem is on this board. Posters want to self-determine what should be discussed based on their own values or politics.

 

[Tanger]

I've got a Tesla 3 coming in a couple of weeks. Infrastructure in Australia is very good. Combined with fact we have great solar potential, it's a no brainer.

 

[Limechase]

Our car rate at work has just risen to 30p from the 23p it's been for the last 25 years. Another example of the generosity of Government to its workforce.

Used to be 60p, until they realised HMRC rate before tax was 45p...... But Private sector get the cars for free, we have to buy our own, and can't claim owt against tax..

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Used to be 60p, until they realised HMRC rate before tax was 45p...... But Private sector get the cars for free, we have to buy our own, and can't claim owt against tax..

A private sector driver wouldn't be able to claim anything against tax either, they'd just get the same 45 pence per mile (assuming it was their personal car) The Private Sector also don't get their cars for free... They'd either have to buy a car themselves and claim 45 pence per mile like you do OR they'd have to pay Tax for a benefit in kind if they were provided with a Company Vehicle (assuming they had access to the vehicle for private use)..

 

[Malced]

I’m describing an attitude or mentality. So I recounted a personal example of that type of mentality.

What’s your objective here?

The reference originally came about, because I was challenging your argument and an attitude that appeared to be suggest that because this charge has some moderately negative consequences (I.e. some people can’t afford to pay it) that it shouldn’t be implemented and that people should be free to just pollute regardless.

Surely not being able to afford it is the point really?

So I was referencing the mentality that you seem to be describing of being incapable of resolving a simple issue. A mentality that essentially says..

1. I want to keep my shit splurting vehicle.
2. I don’t want to pay the charge for the privilege of poisoning others as a result.
3. I’m completely incapable of engaging with perfectly reasonable alternatives, because they pose me moderate inconvenience.
So who are these people Malced? And what is their / your justification for their stance?

And what are you on about? ‘Vehicles purchased in good faith’ ?

I mean unless you’ve knowingly purchased a stolen vehicle, pretty much everyone buys a vehicle in good faith… What the fuck has that got to do with anything?

The requirement is to resolve an issue with pollution. There isn’t a different system for people who bought a vehicle in good faith’… The system relates to vehicles which are heavy polluters (Any socially responsible individual can check the emissions rating of a vehicle prior to purchase).

Goalposts moved?

It’s just new legislation, based on new evidence. And there’s been a concerted effort to encourage people to utilise alternative (less polluting) forms of transport in London for well over a 20 years.

The schemes impacts around 10 % of vehicles only. (So Petrol vehicles over 17 years old and Diesels over 8 years old) and there is a scrappage scheme. Alternatively people can have their vehicles retrofitted or alternatively sell their vehicle / trade in their vehicle.

I’m sure there are hardworking decent people who don’t need these charges on top of everything else, but unfortunately the emissions from their vehicles are negatively impacting the health of others and so just like all those unfortunate folk who had the inconvenience of not poisoning our collective lungs with their cigarette smoke, these hardworking souls will need to either a) get a cleaner vehicle b) utilise public transport or c) walk or cycle.

The fact that you are championing their right to cause harm to others (irrespective of the faith in which they bought their vehicle - probably blind faith in a lot of cases) doesn’t give you the right to assume the moral high ground.

It seem ls to me that you’re always “done with” someone or other on here. Usually anyone who has the audacity to challenge your right to dominate the board with your own opinions.

You’re all fine and dandy smiles and handshakes when folk agree with you. Ignorant and arsey when they don’t…

If you struggle to engage with people who disagree with you then tough shit… It makes no odds to me.. I’m happy to engage with anyone.. I’m cool with anyone expressing any views (especially ones I disagree with or find the most challenging to understand)… bring it on

I’ve not struggled to engage with you as the length of our discussion shows.

The quote you’ve posted is another one of your silly games. You’ve taken it out of context and you’re trying to manipulate anyone reading your drivel.

As you well know, it was referring to YOU and your repeated comments about threads you didn’t like. You suggested stories shouldn’t be covered by the media unless they’re newsworthy. In other words a one man censor. The world according to BFCx3.
So that was the context of that quote.

My withdrawal from our conversation about these ULEZ charges is in no way censorship or me trying to influence what can and can’t be discussed on here.
You and others can talk about it as much as you like. I will too. But I choose not to discuss it with you anymore as I find your comments offensive and absurd. That’s all.
Unlike your attempts on other threads, I’m not trying to stifle discussion about a story purely because I deem it non-worthy of discussion. Like most reasonable people, if I saw a thread I didn’t think was interesting or newsworthy, I’d ignore it. You chose to go on the threads and start claiming the stories weren’t newsworthy and shouldn’t have been broadcasted.

So good try, but not good enough. Feel free to quote me, but when you’re doing it to manipulate the reader I’ll expose you. And that’s quite easy to do.

In summary, I have had many respectful debates on here. Some heated ones too. But I haven’t ever been as disgusted with someone’s comments as I have yours. Your sneering attitude to the less well off is beyond the pale. I think I previously said it was far-right attitude. But that’s probably doing the far-right a disservice. It’s just plain mean and heartless.

 

[Wizaard]

Used to be 60p, until they realised HMRC rate before tax was 45p...... But Private sector get the cars for free, we have to buy our own, and can't claim owt against tax..

I don't get a car for free. Its my car. Pool cars haven't been a thing for 30 years.

And if the private sector vehicle is used for business you can claim against your tax bill