Fleetwood's accounts for 20/21

TKL_Seasider said:
Loans aren’t a problem per se. As long as no one asks for it back.

Neither is a £54k a week loss. If you’ve got someone who can pay it. Every week.

And of course this was Covid year with no crowd revenue. Otherwise losses would be no more than £53k a week!
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Unless the sole financier is jailed, which would make him unfit under League rules, with no chance anyone would take that on.
 
Wizaard said:
That was because football closed ranks. This is slightly different, robbing pensioners. That never plays well with the judiciary.
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Closed ranks. 🤣

This board certainly didn’t.

It was just a matter how long he was going down for for some.

The same people even still said he was guilty after the verdict. 😮
 
Wizaard said:
Unless the sole financier is jailed, which would make him unfit under League rules, with no chance anyone would take that on.
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In itself, not a problem if a family member took over the family business. More of a problem if the family business in itself wasn’t generating the same free cash flow.
 
If someone puts up every EFL clubs finances I’ll be surprised if Fleetwood are even in the bottom 10.
Every club has lost millions in the last 18/24 months, FACT.
 
I wonder whether they are actually in a great position?

I've no idea how rich Pilley actually is (cash in bank etc) but I'm not sure there's loads of people who could walk away from £24m and rising.

If that's the case, he had to keep on putting the money in for as long as possible.

If they ever get down to 100% of income on wages, it might make things more difficult.

A question for the policy bods on here.

Would an independent regulator ask to look at FTFC with a 130% ratio?
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
If someone puts up every EFL clubs finances I’ll have at a guess right now Fleetwood won’t be in the bottom 10.
Every club has lost millions in the last 2 years.
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Do you think a football club belongs to it's community?

3rd tier, 2500 gates, £24m and rising in debt, 130% of turnover of wages.

Do you honestly think that is a sensible and sustainable way to run a football club?
 
TSSeasider said:
Do you think a football club belongs to it's community?

3rd tier, 2500 gates, £24m and rising in debt, 130% of turnover of wages.

Do you honestly think that is a sensible and sustainable way to run a football club?
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No it’s not but as I’ve said many times over on here if the likes of Pilley and Haythornthwaite both football fanatics want to keep their respected clubs going in fact better themselves seriously what’s the issue here?
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
No it’s not but as I’ve said many times over on here if the likes of Pilley and Haythornthwaite want to keep their respected clubs going in fact better themselves seriously what’s the issue here?
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They must enjoy owning a football club in the way or previous owners did.

I also think there's an understandable fear of what might happen if and when they decide enough is enough.

It's also the equivalent of financial doping and flies in the face of FFP - and on that matter that are not the only ones and won't be the worst; but it's the principle.
 
Wizaard said:
No, it doesn't make me Nostrodamus, but at the time, the Cod lovers were telling us that it was fully sustainable and didn't need huge injections of capital.

Utter nonsense as year on year accounts demonstrate.

And that's where we differ. I can't abide clubs spending what they don't have to get an advantage. It defeats the point of competition.
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So you can't abide Chelsea, Man City or Newcastle either? I totally agree with you by the way.
 
Blackpools finest said:
20 years ago Blackpool struggled to get 3000 , who knows what the future holds
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Wasn't that low then, but a bit before that it was still low, due to circumstances, rust bucket of a stadium etc, languishing in lower leagues for years, no real appeal. The town is quite large and the surrounding areas with it are enough to support crowds far higher, as shown now and still plenty more potential.

Fleetwood is only small.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
You soon changed the rules, didn't you? There was no mention of passing investor tests in your first post. You just said "jam today, please" and to hell with tomorrow.

Let's no forget that you have long maintained that the problem with football finance is that the small clubs don't live within the means available from the crumbs that the big clubs give them.
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Robbie

"You soon changed the rules, didn't you? There was no mention of passing investor tests in your first post. You just said "jam today, please" and to hell with tomorrow"


I only included caveats in my second post because YOU made your own assumptions and called me an idiot.

Investment in football teams is not a bad thing.


"Let's not forget that you have long maintained that the problem with football finance is that the small clubs don't live within the means available from the crumbs that the big clubs give them"

I have certainly not forgotten anything although but you appear to have a very selective memory yourself.

I have certainly stated in the past that one of the problems in football is that clubs don't don't live within their means, I still believe that's the case now and I will shout it loudly for you again now.

I have never talked of the crumbs that you talk about but whatever you do, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

It's there for everybody to see what you have done there and rather poor really, our opinions differ on a few topics, probably no need for the "idiot" comment but I will survive.
 
Middxile said:
Just to digress for a moment, can Pool survive in the Championship on gates between 10 and 12k ? A big away following will add a couple of thousand, but is the support really there to expand further ?
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Bournemouth survived and thrived in the Championship and PL on an average 9000. Ground capacity isn’t the be all and end all, the real money is in sponsorship.
 
poolseasider said:
Your conflicting two separate issues here 2020 if an owner wants to throw a good few quid in then fair enough the average club will survive with or without the sugar daddy.

Fleetwood can't.
Without AP's money they can't open the doors and pay the bills in Lge 1,if he walked away tomorrow the club goes under as no one would be prepared to pay off the huge debts and the club who don't own the ground with those losses ain't worth a single pound.
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poolseasider (and Robbie)

They are separate issues and can be treated in isolation.

I gave a hypothetical example where I believe most supporters would be happy to benefit from increased investment over a limited period knowing that at the end of that period investment levels would be reduced to their original level.

Investment in football clubs is not a bad thing and should be encouraged.

Now we look at Fleetwood.

I have absolutely no problem with Robbie bringing their financial position to the attention of others and providing additional information.

I must say that I don't think that there were very many - Wiz would disagree - who thought that Fleetwood could be profitable and competitive in the Football League and think it's fair to say that Fleetwood's outstanding progress would not have been possible without Pilley's investment in the club.

I would also imagine that the majority of Fleetwood supporters have really enjoyed their time in the Football League competing at a much higher level against far bigger clubs and are appreciative of Pilley's investment.

Do we think that they would rather be taking turns to put football cards round at the Highbury Social Club so that the first team could afford a bus to travel to Netherton ?

It would seem that many on here who couldn't care less about Fleetwood are more concerned about their position than anybody else ?
 
Wizaard said:
Another unsustainable vanity project. Do they still have the 2022 logo on their shirts?
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Edit to add: Sorry Wiz, Trademark has already mentioned the same thing above but far more simply.

It would appear that you are happy enough for the Mighty to benefit from money that they don't have.

I'm the same myself, I don't have a problem with that but I accept that other teams will do the same.


Wiz

Not a criticism but I do find it strange that you feel so desperate for Fleetwood to fail ?

If we just talk generally, it would appear that you don't like clubs to benefit from financial input from an owner and would rather see clubs being funded by the activities of their supporters, gates, broadcasting etc - sorry if that's not the case.

Let's now look at the situation at BFC.

We have Simon Sadler investing in the club, don't get me wrong I have nothing against him but other investors would have put more into the club than him and others would have put less in.

Let's say hypothetically that he was willing to put £4m a year into the club and he does this in the first 5 years of his involvement at the club, if he decides to put £8m in his sixth year would it become a vanity project and against all your beliefs ?

Would it already be a vanity project because another owner was only willing to put £2m per year in ?

Please can I reiterate that it's not a criticism Wiz, I just feel that you struggle to accept that investment levels will always vary.
 
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nameless said:
It was interesting to recall the reaction when Wrexham announced they were to be taken over by two Hollywood A actors,indeed some on this thread were celebrating the fact the club had 'Latvian cash' when it was storming into the PL.

Personally I think on an even keel as it were (ie no covid etc) then the Cods can manage to keep EFL status.given the distribution of funds they receive from TV and consolidarity payments. Folk often overlook this because they've a chip on their shoulder about Fleetwood,but its a fact of life that wise spending in these circumstances can sustain a professional club.
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Names

Apologies for the late response, I've spent far too much time on this thread already and only seen this now.

Again, please don't take this as a criticism - you know what word is coming next


BUT


I can't help but think that your views on the Premier League and greed in football etc, etc are not too dissimilar to Roberto's but that you don't want to seen to be agreeing with the great man because of your differences on football committee politics ?
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Edit to add: Sorry Wiz, Trademark has already mentioned the same thing above but far more simply.

It would appear that you are happy enough for the Mighty to benefit from money that they don't have.

I'm the same myself, I don't have a problem with that but I accept that other teams will do the same.


Wiz

Not a criticism but I do find it strange that you feel so desperate for Fleetwood to fail ?

If we just talk generally, it would appear that you don't like clubs to benefit from financial input from an owner and would rather see clubs being funded by the activities of their supporters, gates, broadcasting etc - sorry if that's not the case.

Let's now look at the situation at BFC.

We have Simon Sadler investing in the club, don't get me wrong I have nothing against him but other investors would have put more into the club than him and others would have put less in.

Let's say hypothetically that he was willing to put £4m a year into the club and he does this in the first 5 years of his involvement at the club, if he decides to put £8m in his sixth year would it become a vanity project and against all your beliefs ?

Would it already be a vanity project because another owner was only willing to put £2m per year in ?

Please can I reiterate that it's not a criticism Wiz, I just feel that you struggle to accept that investment levels will always vary.
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Why do you think Blackpool are spending money they don't have? Everything I see is that we are living within our means, now covid is over.
 
Wizaard said:
Why do you think Blackpool are spending money they don't have? Everything I see is that we are living within our means, now covid is over.
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I don't really think Blackpool are spending money they don't have, I think that's only the case using your own definition.

A football team could have an investor willing to put £4m in a year, if he decides to put £6m in instead do you think that makes it a vanity project ?

Is it already a vanity project if the previous investor was only willing to put £2m in per year ?

I'm not sure why you mention covid but as you have done, is it a vanity project if an investor is willing to put more money in to cover shortfall at club A while an investor at club B - identical in size to club A - is unable/unwilling to put money in to cover identical shortfalls ?

Please don't let me put words in your mouth Wiz, so I am only asking you a question:

Are you suggesting that all clubs should only be allowed to use monies generated by normal football related activities and that clubs should NOT be allowed to benefit from investment ?
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
I can't help but think that your views on the Premier League and greed in football etc, etc are not too dissimilar to Roberto's but that you don't want to seen to be agreeing with the great man because of your differences on football committee politics ?
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I can see where you're coming from and on the basics I agree with most of the things that BRR/FSA etc are saying,but the fall out is with how to go about forming an opposition to it where I think vested interests have arisen.
How can BST and the other Trusts honestly say they oppose the way the EPL is run when they get huge grants from that fans fund, and why hasn't the FSA put forward the mode of engagement that BST have used at BR?
Its ok having engagement written into a new constitution etc if it just becomes another layer of self preserving self interest,that doesnt fundamentally change the thing that needs changing.

Its not differences as such its just that it really needs a root and branch approach thats wholly inclusive of all supporters, where hypocrisy is often arising from the groups and their committees

We've seen it on here where some people deride Pilley for investing in his local club,but Wrexham for one are praised as too was Belekon at Blackpool. Quite how the position at Newcastle and now Chelsea is accepted at national fans level is beyond belief because the FSA should be shouting from the rooftops and calling for action at the highest level
 
nameless said:
I can see where you're coming from and on the basics I agree with most of the things that BRR/FSA etc are saying,but the fall out is with how to go about forming an opposition to it where I think vested interests have arisen.
How can BST and the other Trusts honestly say they oppose the way the EPL is run when they get huge grants from that fans fund, and why hasn't the FSA put forward the mode of engagement that BST have used at BR?
Its ok having engagement written into a new constitution etc if it just becomes another layer of self preserving self interest,that doesnt fundamentally change the thing that needs changing.

Its not differences as such its just that it really needs a root and branch approach thats wholly inclusive of all supporters, where hypocrisy is often arising from the groups and their committees

We've seen it on here where some people deride Pilley for investing in his local club,but Wrexham for one are praised as too was Belekon at Blackpool. Quite how the position at Newcastle and now Chelsea is accepted at national fans level is beyond belief because the FSA should be shouting from the rooftops and calling for action at the highest level
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Good evening Names.

I don't wish to be rude but I really wouldn't know enough about the organisations that you mention.

That is certainly not to say that you don't make valid points and without knowing the specifics I am sure there is no shortage of hypocrisy across the organisations, the only consistency will be the inconsistency.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Good evening Names.

I don't wish to be rude but I really wouldn't know enough about the organisations that you mention.

That is certainly not to say that you don't make valid points and without knowing the specifics I am sure there is no shortage of hypocrisy across the organisations, the only consistency will be the inconsistency.
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You can be as rude as you want but as you know this place is heavily moderated and users face extended bans,which ironically enough is something that the FSA tolerate and on which BST members serve. The hypocrisy is quite close to home so I wouldn't trust (npi) any of them as far as i could chuck them.

On a grander scale FT arent really newsworthy as an entity and have to abide by financial fair play, and where their CEO has sat on the FA Council as an EFL rep and from all accounts done a fine job. I've been in contact with him a few times over a few things and he's straight as a die,honest and kind where he represents the Fylde Coast well nationally.
Cant /won't comment on AP but he's stayed loyal to the area, done loads for the community and contributed financially which puts him and the football club in the boxed seat for contributing to the debate. Not sure that covers everyone on this thread but hey ho.
 
Having had a more detailed look, a couple more points to note:

Fleetwood’s income was actually higher in Covid year than the year before, and they cut their wage bill quite substantially. Not quite clear where the extra income was from.

Cap-in-hand loan from the EFL will be repaid until 2024 … presumably the squad/salary restrictions stay in place until then?

Dependence on Pilley goes beyond covering the losses: sponsorship/rent from BES amounts to £1.1 million a year, about a fifth of revenue.

Even despite that, Pillley’s subsidy of Fleetwood was lower than Mr Sadler’s input to BFC … albeit it’s much more likely to need repeating year-in, year-out.
 
I have always maintained that I think that there are too many League Clubs in Lancashire (NW region) as it was. To that extent, Fleetwood and Fylde are both detrimental to Blackpool FC’s health IMHO, simply because they compete with us for fan revenue in our catchment area.

Some don’t see them as rivals (and they aren’t in terms of competing with us on the pitch), but we’d be better off without them in my view.

Neither Club has ever really been sustainable, but very few Clubs are these days. If both were to ultimately fail, I would see that as being largely beneficial to my Club👍
 
How much will Sadler throw at it as does virtually every club owner does. Just wondering what the difference is.

Also they’ll probably break even this year with all the player sales and many more of those in pipeline playing.

Also Poolfoot Training Ground is a separate business is it not

Seems going very much in the right direction save for current league position

Maybe sustainable in league two ?
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I have always maintained that I think that there are too many League Clubs in Lancashire (NW region) as it was. To that extent, Fleetwood and Fylde are both detrimental to Blackpool FC’s health IMHO, simply because they compete with us for fan revenue in our catchment area.

Some don’t see them as rivals (and they aren’t in terms of competing with us on the pitch), but we’d be better off without them in my view.

Neither Club has ever really been sustainable, but very few Clubs are these days. If both were to ultimately fail, I would see that as being largely beneficial to my Club👍
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Detrimental?
I’ve had this argument with Wiz many many times on here.
If both Fleetwood and Fylde folded tomorrow do you seriously think for one minute their fans would suddenly all flock down to Bloomfield road?
Not a chance, there might not be many of them but they support these clubs over Blackpool for a reason.
It’s no different than If Blackpool ever folded would you start going to Preston? No of course you wouldn’t.
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I have always maintained that I think that there are too many League Clubs in Lancashire (NW region) as it was. To that extent, Fleetwood and Fylde are both detrimental to Blackpool FC’s health IMHO, simply because they compete with us for fan revenue in our catchment area.

Some don’t see them as rivals (and they aren’t in terms of competing with us on the pitch), but we’d be better off without them in my view.

Neither Club has ever really been sustainable, but very few Clubs are these days. If both were to ultimately fail, I would see that as being largely beneficial to my Club👍
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Yes, I imagine that there are too many football clubs in the North West and also in plenty of other regions but I doubt there will ever be any appetite for change.

Wallace Mercer proposed to merge Hearts and Hibs, one such combined club would enjoy obvious cost - and income - benefits and would surely be more competitive but the supporters of both clubs let him know what they thought of the idea and his plans were soon dropped.

To anybody suggesting any possible merger was stopped because of tenuous religious links, I would hazard a guess that if anybody was to suggest both Sheffield clubs should merge, they would get the same response.

I'm rambling - for a change - but moving on, I'd say that both Fylde and the Cods are sustainable but just at a lower level.

As you suggest, if either or both were to go to the wall, I'm thinking it would be beneficial to BFC but not largely so and I'm not sure that wishing death on anybody is a good thing.

Edit to add: Sorry x3, to be fair, you didn't actually wish death on anybody, you just suggested that the Mighty might benefit from their demise. Apologies to you and any others who may have been offended by my lazy assumption.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Detrimental?
I’ve had this argument with Wiz many many times on here.
If both Fleetwood and Fylde folded tomorrow do you seriously think for one minute their fans would suddenly all flock down to Bloomfield road?
Not a chance, there might not be many of them but they support these clubs over Blackpool for a reason.
It’s no different than If Blackpool ever folded would you start going to Preston? No of course you wouldn’t.
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Yes, I think that a good proportion of the fans who would have otherwise opted to support Fleetwood and who might support a League Team based in the Fylde would support Blackpool instead.

It’s not necessarily about those who change allegiances (of course some would mind you), but rather about being the only local league club for new fans to choose from.

The reality is that people who have attended FTFC or Fylde and thereby played a part in their success, tend to struggle to acknowledge the issue for obvious reasons.

In any area is that watering down the fanbase with too many league clubs is detrimental to the area, because it limits the potential success for all clubs.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Detrimental?
I’ve had this argument with Wiz many many times on here.
If both Fleetwood and Fylde folded tomorrow do you seriously think for one minute their fans would suddenly all flock down to Bloomfield road?
Not a chance, there might not be many of them but they support these clubs over Blackpool for a reason.
It’s no different than If Blackpool ever folded would you start going to Preston? No of course you wouldn’t.
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You beat me to it. The amount of stick they get on here forces the issue further, so they're more likely to watch ManU etc on Sky TV in the Dead Uns.
 
Thinking about it, I'm thinking they (Cods, Fylde, etc) are more fecked if we do well than us prospering from their failure/demise ?
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Thinking about it, I'm thinking they (Cods, Fylde, etc) are more fecked if we do well than us prospering from their failure/demise ?
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Do well? We are doing well hell we’re in the top half of the championship which for a team like Blackpool is as good as it gets.

Yes we all want promotion again but think it’s so much more difficult today to survive than it was 12 years ago look at Burnley, Norwich, Watford, even maybe Everton who are all much bigger clubs than Blackpool but yet destined for the drop this season.

Like I said if people would sooner watch league 1/2 or indeed conference north level now they aren’t suddenly going to change allegiance to a club 5/6 miles down the road just because we’re in the top half of the championship.

I find it strange how some people on here can’t seem to understand that or they do but just won’t accept it.
 
I'm sure Fleetwood and Fylde benefitted from our boycott, so why wouldn't we benefit from them disappearing? Not saying we'd suddenly get their combined gates added to ours, but over time it would make our potential supporter pool larger.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Do well? We are doing well hell we’re in the top half of the championship which for a team like Blackpool is as good as it gets.

Yes we all want promotion again but think it’s so much more difficult today to survive than it was 12 years ago look at Burnley, Norwich, Watford, even maybe Everton who are all much bigger clubs than Blackpool but yet destined for the drop this season.

Like I said if people would sooner watch league 1/2 or indeed conference north level now they aren’t suddenly going to change allegiance to a club 5/6 miles down the road just because we’re in the top half of the championship.

I find it strange how some people on here can’t seem to understand that or they do but just won’t accept it.
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Jaffa

We are certainly doing well, I couldn't agree more.

While I also agree with you regarding it being difficult to survive in the Premiership, those who enjoy being pedantic could suggest that the possibility of Everton getting relegated actually means smaller clubs have a better chance of survival.

I'm not sure about what you say regarding supporters of local lower league clubs not being more likely to watch us when we are doing well.

I'm not saying what you are saying is ridiculous but I can see why others might struggle to accept what you say, I think it's up for debate.

Not an identical situation I know but I have heard people attached to Accrington Stanley say that they generally suffer (supporter numbers) when Burnley or Blackburn or both are doing well and pick up (supporter numbers) when they struggle.

I'd probably still say they (Cods and Fylde) would suffer more when we are doing well than we would profit from their failure.
 
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Fleetwood Town aren t a sustainable EFL club there just isn t the population in
Fleetwood to sustain them.Now BFC has a good owner and management working
with a good business model which will gradually balance the books and make the
club become moderatly successfull business.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Jaffa

We are certainly doing well, I couldn't agree more.

While I also agree with you regarding it being difficult to survive in the Premiership, those who enjoy being pedantic could suggest that the possibility of Everton getting relegated actually means smaller clubs have a better chance of survival.

I'm not sure about what you say regarding supporters of local lower league clubs not being more likely to watch us when we are doing well.

I'm not saying what you are saying is ridiculous but I can see why others might struggle to accept what you say, I think it's up for debate.

Not an identical situation I know but I have heard people attached to Accrington Stanley say that they generally suffer (supporter numbers) when Burnley or Blackburn or both are doing well and pick up (supporter numbers) when they struggle.

I'd probably still say they (Cods and Fylde) would suffer more when we are doing well than we would profit from their failure.
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The fact is… It is ridiculous… And every shred of available evidence proves it to be so.
 
AndrewDuncanSmith said:
Fleetwood Town aren t a sustainable EFL club there just isn t the population in
Fleetwood to sustain them.Now BFC has a good owner and management working
with a good business model which will gradually balance the books and make the
club become moderatly successfull business.
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That’s true another reason why the gates at Fleetwood are so poor and another reason some on here fail to accept that.
Per head of population Percentage Fleetwood’s 2,500 is on a par with our 10k.
 
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