Guardian: Premier League and EFL in secret talks to remove parachute payments

You are being selective of course because it suits your anti EPL agenda. Could Liverpool have been relegated in the 80's?. Of course not. The big teams at the time have always been the big teams. It's a fact that any team could be relegated in any given season but just like before the advent of the EPL the better teams weren't.
I'm using the example of two teams who tried to form the ESL, so your last sentence is nonsense. One of whom is probably the biggest club in the world and has had that presence for 7 decades. So of course it could have happened but can't now.

There are plenty of other examples. City in the 90s for starters. Forest, Ipswich, Leeds etc etc etc. All league winners relatively recently prior to the start of the EPL.

Your pro-EPL agenda is so obvious, but try as you might, no one else thinks it's competitive in any true sense of the word.
 
And it was the same teams at the top of the table before the EPL. Your point about "flipping" is nonnsense. Were the dominant Liverpool of the 80's ever gonna flip into the bottom half? And as I keep pointing out go and have a look at the other European leagues.
Can you give another example other than Liverpool in the 80s?
 
This is so obvious I can't believe it needs saying. It's the same teams at the top of the league, season after season.

If anyone wants to argue that this is a good thing, they're free to do so. I can see some half-respectable arguments to be made (having powerhouse clubs attracts top world talent, gives English sides the best chance to win in Europe, casual fans wanna root for teams who rarely lose...). But, the extreme competitive imbalance is plain as day. In a truly competitive league, the "top half" and "bottom half" could just about flip season to season, and that would be normal. But it's not normal, it's unimaginable.
It's not the same 6 teams every season though....

It's inevitable in any league (over any term) that the success is going to be concentrated in and around a few teams... The bigger / better the Team, the longer they are likely to feature / dominate, but over time that changes and occasionally a wild card will pop in or other teams will join the party, whilst someone else drops out.

To expect to see a different distribution of Clubs each year would be a sign of a weak league, rather than a strong and competitive one at it would demonstrate a lack of longevity and quality. To think you can manufacture some kind of fairness into competition and expect that periods (and lengthy periods) of domination will not exist at the top is completely naive.... Look at Usain Bolt is Athletics, The Williams sisters in Tennis.... The USA & China in Olympic competition...

And for all that, the Premier League is the most competitive of all the European Leagues in any case... Crikey, take a look at the Fabled Bundesliga with all of their Fans on boards and independent regulation, where one club has won 19 titles of the last 30 and 25 of the 30 League titles are split between 2 teams....
 
It's not the same 6 teams every season though....

It's inevitable in any league (over any term) that the success is going to be concentrated in and around a few teams... The bigger / better the Team, the longer they are likely to feature / dominate, but over time that changes and occasionally a wild card will pop in or other teams will join the party, whilst someone else drops out.

To expect to see a different distribution of Clubs each year would be a sign of a weak league, rather than a strong and competitive one at it would demonstrate a lack of longevity and quality. To think you can manufacture some kind of fairness into competition and expect that periods (and lengthy periods) of domination will not exist at the top is completely naive.... Look at Usain Bolt is Athletics, The Williams sisters in Tennis.... The USA & China in Olympic competition...

And for all that, the Premier League is the most competitive of all the European Leagues in any case... Crikey, take a look at the Fabled Bundesliga with all of their Fans on boards and independent regulation, where one club has won 19 titles of the last 30 and 25 of the 30 League titles are split between 2 teams....

Yes, I agree that in any league you will see some teams remain strong for extended periods, while others remain weak for extended periods. Would you agree that the extraordinary financial inequalities across the teams contribute to this? This doesn't look like coincidence:

szymanski_piece_fig_1-inline.jpg


I suppose we could note that correlation doesn't imply causation, and perhaps success on the pitch leads in some part to higher expenditure on wages. But I'm betting there's a strong element of causality at play here, going from wages to league position.

I am not suggesting that fairness be "manufactured"; I'm suggesting that the most obvious source of unfairness be reduced. If team expenditures were not grotesquely unequal, I would not begrudge the successful teams their success. As it stands, a large component of success is simply purchased, and then the real competition is between the handful of teams who have a massive financial advantage over all the others.
 
Yes, I agree that in any league you will see some teams remain strong for extended periods, while others remain weak for extended periods. Would you agree that the extraordinary financial inequalities across the teams contribute to this? This doesn't look like coincidence:

szymanski_piece_fig_1-inline.jpg


I suppose we could note that correlation doesn't imply causation, and perhaps success on the pitch leads in some part to higher expenditure on wages. But I'm betting there's a strong element of causality at play here, going from wages to league position.

I am not suggesting that fairness be "manufactured"; I'm suggesting that the most obvious source of unfairness be reduced. If team expenditures were not grotesquely unequal, I would not begrudge the successful teams their success. As it stands, a large component of success is simply purchased, and then the real competition is between the handful of teams who have a massive financial advantage over all the others.
The whole ethos of 'professional football' has been based around employing a combination of financial prowess and sporting ability from the day the Football League came into being. If anything, the Premier League and significant finance interrupts out what might otherwise be a fairly uniform system, based purely on size of fanbase alone, so unlike in the chart above, Clubs like Wigan and Bolton wouldn't have featured anywhere near their position on the distribution chart.....
 
The whole ethos of 'professional football' has been based around employing a combination of financial prowess and sporting ability from the day the Football League came into being. If anything, the Premier League and significant finance interrupts out what might otherwise be a fairly uniform system, based purely on size of fanbase alone, so unlike in the chart above, Clubs like Wigan and Bolton wouldn't have featured anywhere near their position on the distribution chart.....
Well said Bifster. People come on here moaning about the EPL saying it's not competitive and it's not fair. It's as competitive as any top league in Europe. People come on here acting like spoilt kids because it isn't fair in their eyes. Life and the world isn't fair for millions of people and here you are griping about the EPL. Get used to it. Whinge, whinge whinge. In their eyes fairness means teams like Rochdale being able to compete with Man U.
And of course my pro EPL agenda is obvious. I'm seeing some of the worlds best players playing in it on a weekly basis. What's not to like. And of course you Wiz would like to be part of it. Unbelievable hypocrite you are Wiz.
 
Last edited:
Well said Bifster. People come on here moaning about the EPL saying it's not competitive and it's not fair. It's as competitive as any top league in Europe. People come on here acting like spoilt kids because it isn't fair in their eyes. Life and the world isn't fair for millions of people and here you are griping about the EPL. Get used to it. Whinge, whinge whinge. In their eyes fairness means teams like Rochdale being able to compete with Man U.
And of course my pro EPL agenda is obvious. I'm seeing some of the worlds best players playing in it on a weekly basis. What's not to like. And of course you Wiz would like to be part of it. Unbelievable hypocrite you are Wiz.
Life isn't fair so football shouldn’t be either.

No wonder you support Boris.
 
Life isn't fair so football shouldn’t be either.

No wonder you support Boris.
go and look at the final league table of 1970/1971 and see how far adrift of safety we were then. Was that not fair? We're we not competitive?

Clearly football isn't for you if you think everything should be fair and equal. Oh and five of the top eight there are in the top six now with City being 11th. So not much has changed.
Can you refer me to a post where I say I support Boris? I support my country and just get on with it. That would be the case in the EU or not, Corbyn as PM or not.
 
Last edited:
I think I've got the answer, let's make the Premier League a handicap ?

Before anybody suggests that the redistribution of TV revenues is a form of the handicap, I'd imagine that taking millions from the Premier League clubs will effect the lower Premier League clubs than the bigger ones.

So we appoint an official handicapper, somebody unbiased with a good knowledge of football - maybe Wiz could do it while the Mighty are not in the EPL ? - and he decides on the 'weight' to be carried by each team.

Manchester City would start on zero points and Norwich would start with 40/50/whatever and all the other teams somewhere in between.

After the first season under this method had finished, no doubt we'd have folk on here complaining that we hadn't finished with a 20 way dead heat.

OK, it's a ridiculous idea and maybe we have to get used to the idea that clubs with bigger resources are generally more successful and if there is a big gap between the top teams and the lesser teams, it's probably fair to assume that means there is more quality in the league than if all 20 teams finished with exactly the same number of points.

All the top leagues are the same.
 
I ended up trying to work it out using physical props, which I set out in the back room so the Mrs didn’t think I was mental..

I used the room to represent the Farm
A cavalier King Charles Spaniel (Max) to represent Fully Grown Animals
A Border Terrier (Loki) to represent Calves
A packet of Lincolnshire Sausages represented (or actually was) Meat
And Milk for Milk

Anyway I’d managed to duct tape the sausages to the Spaniel and was trying to tape the Milk to the underside of the Border Terrier, when the Mrs entered the room.

I tried explaining….and then complete mayhem broke out as the Border Terrier tried to snaffle the sausages….

The conclusion I finally reached was that The EPL is a Farm full of Dogs who are milking the Championship, Whilst the Championship is a small dog fighting for sausages.

👍
BFCx3, did Max, at any stage, try to eat Loki?;)
 
I think I've got the answer, let's make the Premier League a handicap ?

Before anybody suggests that the redistribution of TV revenues is a form of the handicap, I'd imagine that taking millions from the Premier League clubs will effect the lower Premier League clubs than the bigger ones.

So we appoint an official handicapper, somebody unbiased with a good knowledge of football - maybe Wiz could do it while the Mighty are not in the EPL ? - and he decides on the 'weight' to be carried by each team.

Manchester City would start on zero points and Norwich would start with 40/50/whatever and all the other teams somewhere in between.

After the first season under this method had finished, no doubt we'd have folk on here complaining that we hadn't finished with a 20 way dead heat.

OK, it's a ridiculous idea and maybe we have to get used to the idea that clubs with bigger resources are generally more successful and if there is a big gap between the top teams and the lesser teams, it's probably fair to assume that means there is more quality in the league than if all 20 teams finished with exactly the same number of points.

All the top leagues are the same.
I think you'll find that the bookies already do it before the start of every season.
 
I think I've got the answer, let's make the Premier League a handicap ?

Before anybody suggests that the redistribution of TV revenues is a form of the handicap, I'd imagine that taking millions from the Premier League clubs will effect the lower Premier League clubs than the bigger ones.

So we appoint an official handicapper, somebody unbiased with a good knowledge of football - maybe Wiz could do it while the Mighty are not in the EPL ? - and he decides on the 'weight' to be carried by each team.

Manchester City would start on zero points and Norwich would start with 40/50/whatever and all the other teams somewhere in between.

After the first season under this method had finished, no doubt we'd have folk on here complaining that we hadn't finished with a 20 way dead heat.

OK, it's a ridiculous idea and maybe we have to get used to the idea that clubs with bigger resources are generally more successful and if there is a big gap between the top teams and the lesser teams, it's probably fair to assume that means there is more quality in the league than if all 20 teams finished with exactly the same number of points.

All the top leagues are the same.
Financially, the gap between our top sides and those coming up is bigger than most continental leagues and they are doing all they can to keep it that way.
 
go and look at the final league table of 1970/1971 and see how far adrift of safety we were then. Was that not fair? We're we not competitive?

Clearly football isn't for you if you think everything should be fair and equal. Oh and five of the top eight there are in the top six now with City being 11th. So not much has changed.
Can you refer me to a post where I say I support Boris? I support my country and just get on with it. That would be the case in the EU or not, Corbyn as PM or not.
No, we weren't competitive.

And you supported Boris in every way since the pandemic started, saying no one could have done anything differently, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.
 
No, we weren't competitive.

And you supported Boris in every way since the pandemic started, saying no one could have done anything differently, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.
Good, so you acknowledge that the league has pretty much NEVER been fair and competitive in the way you think it should be.

And nope I didn't. I said we should have shut our borders earlier for starters, Said he got the care homes wrong too. I blamed China for starting this crisis which they did whilst some on here were defending them. What I tried not to do was make it all about the politics when thousands of people were dying. That was a constant theme throughout my posts. Can you say the same? Rhetorical question as this is the football side of the board.
 
So far as I can tell the two major issues are governance and money.

On governance any BFC supporter who thinks the EPL and EFL are up to the task must have been asleep for the last 10 years. They are not fit for purpose and have to be replaced with an independent regulator. What is the role of that regulator? Primarily to stop scummy people owning football clubs. And in the meantime keep the current scummy owners (and there are plenty across all leagues) in line. In particular I’d hope the regulator would work closely with HMRC.

Oh and don’t forget the agents.

On the money side as always the two issues are revenue and costs.

Revenue comes primarily from TV. So don’t kill the golden goose but frankly Sky don’t care how their payments are distributed. It’s unarguable that too much money goes to too few clubs. The regulator needs to find a fairer system of distribution and that should include grass roots football.

An untapped source of revenue is also transfer fees and I know that’s been addressed by Tracy Crouch with the levy. Good idea. Bit like SDLT on land transfers. Again the revenue generated needs to be divvied up fairly across all levels.

Costs? Not sure. If you’ve put in safeguards re the owners then in theory you should have reputable people in control who will manage the business properly. People who aren’t going to take out 11m in directors remuneration immediately after promotion or circa 30m in interest free and unsecured loans to other businesses with tenuous links to football.

In short, put in place a proper regulator with teeth and, given time, the rest will fall into place. Does that mean there won’t be any more negative outcomes? Not at all. But it does mean football will have started the journey to clean up its act.
 
The whole ethos of 'professional football' has been based around employing a combination of financial prowess and sporting ability from the day the Football League came into being. If anything, the Premier League and significant finance interrupts out what might otherwise be a fairly uniform system, based purely on size of fanbase alone, so unlike in the chart above, Clubs like Wigan and Bolton wouldn't have featured anywhere near their position on the distribution chart.....
But that's like you ignore the history of wage caps and latterly even distribution of TV money. Of course finances always mattered but the scale is totally different than it once was. Of course wage caps were cheated but the sums were laughably small. Stanley Matthews got a sports shop in town, in the Victorian era player were given nice cuts of meat in addition to their wage from the local butcher on the board or whatever. We're not talking about sums that were barely within comprehension. We're talking about a few underhand dealings.

You can't just say 'football has always been like this' - it palpably hasn't. There's always been friction between the ambition to spend freely and the desire to regulate for sporting reasons. AS much as you can say 'no! no! no! to regulation, regulation has been as much a part of professional football as spending has since virtually day one. Regulation was part of it even before the league, with all sorts of controvercy about payment and amatuer status. The league once formed quickly realised that free spending would diminish the product and swiftly moved to apply wage caps and rules.

I'm not saying those wage caps were necessarily 'good' - indeed, there are quite a few unanswered questions about where the money went in the maximum wage days when the crowds were huge and the wages tiny that have never really been answered. Brian Clough's animosity to 'the directors' is probably traced back to him being a pre 1961 player earning a pittance in front of huge crowds and wondering where all the ticket money ended up going. I'd recommend anyone in the world read 'When Footballers Were Skint' - it's one of the best books I've ever read. It's truly brilliant oral history... Anyway, I digress.

The point is - as much as you say 'money is part of the game and always has been' and we have to accept that (Arsenal essentially buying their place in the top fight as an example, various 'bank of England clubs' PKE and their shady dealings with Scottish pros and 'jobs' in mills and so on...) - you also have to accept that regulation and financial controls are part of the game and always have been. Granted, that doesn't mean FAN regulation per se is a good idea but reform or regulation or some sense of considering the financial impact on competition in and of itself isn't a terrible new imposition that has just been dreamed up by some Maoists - it's as much a part of the history of the game as anything else is. The friction represented by recent threads is in a sense, a similar friction as could be read in meetings in the 1890s or perhaps the meetings of the early 60s or maybe meetings in the 1980s about what to do with TV revenue or perhaps debates about the whys and wherefore of parachute payments and so on and so forth.

It is true that historically, we've relied on self regulation - but... what we have perhaps at this point in history, is a very different set of owners - it's fairly unprecedented that we've got the kind of global ownership that we know have. We know for a fact that FSG are baffled by the English obsession with the pyramid and would much prefer a kind of franchise system. Who knows what the Saudi's know or care about the British pyramid? Who really thinks the Glaziers have any consideration at all for Rochdale or Stockport or Oldham?

We know for a cast iron, stone cold fact that these owners (plus Daniel Levy) were more than prepared to walk away from the system to join a totally different structure.

Maybe we should have let them - that's not the point. The point is, we're entrusting self regulation and financial decisions to a system wherein the prime movers, the greatest influencers, the loudest voices are evidently looking for a closed shop. We know this as they LITERALLY tried to set one up. This year.

Thus glibly saying 'money has always been part of football' is true, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I don't recall Liverpool in the 80s, Wolves in the 50s, Arsenal in the 30s or any side of note from any era of football trying to essentially leave the pyramid behind as an irritating irrelevance.

Clearly the set up as it is, however loudly people say 'it doesn't' already impacts on the variety of teams that win trophies. That's a matter of fact, not opinion. There has never been a period like the last 15 years in terms of the predictability of the top 6 and the limited number of winners of domestic honours. That is a fact.

We ALSO know that the clubs as they are that benefit most from this set up are NOT satisfied with it. They want more money and even less precarity. In fact, they want to totally do away with precarity. They want a cast iron guarantee of a bigger slice of a bigger cake. Even though they've got more chance than ever of eating a bigger cake than ever - that's not enough.

What is an interesting thought experiment is - what if the EPL itself, stung by the actions of the 'big six' decided to make it's brand less dependent on those big 6? (Which sort of makes sense from a business perspective - if your most reliable brands are proving risky, make some new big sellers) - how would they go about doing that?
 
I think you'll find that the bookies already do it before the start of every season.

Wiz

Yes, I'm fully aware of that but it doesn't mean anything other than for betting purposes.

My - not serious - suggestion was that the league placings would be decided after considering the handicaps and the champions would be the team with the best not score and not the best gross.

I tried to put you forward for the handicapping gig so you can get a few quid and you dismiss my suggestion so flippantly.
 
Financially, the gap between our top sides and those coming up is bigger than most continental leagues and they are doing all they can to keep it that way.

Wiz

The Premier League is where all the money is so of course the gap will be bigger.

Believe it or not, it is the most successful league financially because all the countries around the world want to watch it, all these countries around the world are queuing up to pay for the rights to show this uncompetitive rubbish football.

We've done this one time and time again Wiz, the Premier League is very successful and it is only natural that the clubs responsible for generating the huge broadcasting revenues are going to expect to retain the majority of those revenues.

Those who run corner shops would be better off if the major high street retailers were to share their revenues from Xmas promotions with smaller outlets but I don't see the big shops doing any time soon, be it voluntarily or through any change in statute.
 
Even the relatively minor PL clubs are still raking in about £250,000,000 per year revenue, so on that basis £100,000 p/w is easily sustainable, in fact the only PL club ever to go into administration was Portsmouth and that was over 10 years ago.

Sadly there are some Championship clubs paying silly money, but that's the EFL's job to sort out.
Leicester were the trailblazers in how these people treat the EFL. They effectively ignored the EFL financial rules and gambled that before any problems would arise they would be in the Premier League and the EFL rules wouldn't apply anymore.

Wolves are probably the best example of another team that did the same thing successfully, as are Villa.

The likes of Derby and Birmingham followed the same plan but lost the gamble.

The Villa v Derby playoff final was a game of Russian roulette.

Its why I can't stand the current "boohoo won't somebody think of the poor Derby supporters" narrative running in the media. Derby fans were happy enough to enjoy 6 years of being up the top end of the league by living beyond their means. Now its time to pay the piper.
 
Back
Top