Has Covid made the workforce a little bit workshy?

[BFC1980]

Just been reading about a London workforce who have said that from now on if you choose to work from home, you have to take 20% pay cut. Also read other reports from America that people are complaining about not being allowed to work from home.

I don't understand why anyone would possibly want to work from home. I had to teach from home for 7 months straight and I absolutely hated it. Sure I had much more free time when at home, I could wake up an hour later, go for a run during my lunch hour, play with the dog, spend more time with my kids as they were also learning at home. But nothing beats the feeling of being at work, in my own classroom, face to face teaching and meeting colleagues.

Have people become too lazy to drag themselves out of bed in the morning and get to the office or is there a genuine fear of catching Covid?

 

[Recidivist3]

interestingly, you describe a better work / life balance in your own life but reject it in favour of maintaining a pre-Covid status quo

The article about the 20% pay cut is this one, I assume. Nothing to do with either laziness or fear of catching Covid as far as I can see

Law firm says staff can work from home - for 20% less pay

Staff can choose to work remotely, but will have their pay cut, says city law firm Stephenson Harwood.

www.bbc.co.uk

you could even spend some of that time ‘saved’ to learn the language of the country that you have lived in for so long

 

[Matesrates]

Can’t think of anything worse than working from home, tried it once, apart from the obvious interruptions and the ease of doing things other than work, like checking your phone and going on AVFTT, it’s boring as hell, and I just wanted to get out and meet with colleagues.

 

[Trammo]

It can be a blessing if you have annoying workmates or are a loner.

 

[Newholland]

Obsessed, has your missus been shagging a Labour councillor behind your back?

...thought only those affiliated to the Tory party indulge in that sort of activity.... must have read this board wrong.. my mistake

 

[Lost Seasider]

I don't understand why anyone would possibly want to work from home. I had to teach from home for 7 months straight and I absolutely hated it. Sure I had much more free time when at home,

2 - 3 hours per day commuting, costing maybe £5,000 per year out of taxed income, that's a couple of good reasons.

Of course, it's going to depend upon the job, but if the job's mostly head down working on the computer, or otherwise generally involves little direct personal interaction, there's not much difference between working in your spare bedroom and working from a desk in London.

 

[Wizaard]

2 - 3 hours per day commuting, costing maybe £5,000 per year out of taxed income, that's a couple of good reasons.

Of course, it's going to depend upon the job, but if the job's mostly head down working on the computer, or otherwise generally involves little direct personal interaction, there's not much difference between working in your spare bedroom and working from a desk in London.

There's probably an argument to be made that working from home while being paid London weighting is taking the piss, but working from home will vary enormously depending on the job, and might be better for some than commuting to an office every day.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

This article originally appeared on a website for lawyers called Roll on Friday. There are some insightful comments on that thread for anyone who is interested.

 

[TotallyTangerine]

It’s not just about individual preferences though, is it. It’s the collective impact it has. Our society is already rather insular…

 

[B_Side_The_C_Side]

I love working from home.....

Got up at 8,15 this morning, showered and had my first Teams meeting of the day at 9,00am from the sofa
Everyone looked like they had a sleepover at a gym, in either a tracky top or a fleece hoody... a chilled out meeting with no bullshit bingo anymore.
Just on my 2nd cup of tea of the day and I'm off to make some toast......

The future (of certain work) is hybrid....2/3 days in an office and 2/3 days at home with productivity higher than being in an office.

Some employers are already outsourcing their workforce as 'Home based' for certain sections of work.
If you call customer services for Argos, Virgin, Sky etc, etc......these staff are now 90% home based....

It's going to be the future of (certain) employment

 

[poolseasider]

Friendships and relationships are made at work it's how I met my now wife so it's quite sad if that won't be the norm in future years.

 

[Newholland]

There is an opportunity to change some working practice to benefit the environment, congested transport systems and stress related work issues by a managed work from home policy for some , particularly, office tech staff.
Surely we should take advantage of the enforced changes the pandemic has presented?
The OP is correct in that teaching really isn’t one of those professions and neither are GP’s!!!

 

[Scaramanga]

Its always the home workers on here championing and claiming they are more productive at home. I think its a really sad state, so many businesses will go under.

 

[Wizaard]

Its always the home workers on here championing and claiming they are more productive at home. I think its a really sad state, so many businesses will go under.

Decent businesses will adapt and find new opportunities.

Isn't that the Tory dogma?

Adapt and survive or die. That was good enough for heavy industry in the 80s, its good enough for sandwich shops in town centres.

 

[TheRealKingKenny]

Its always the home workers on here championing and claiming they are more productive at home. I think its a really sad state, so many businesses will go under.

Business embracing new technologies and championing work/life balance will thrive.

By offering remote working you can access skills you might not have access to because of geography.

The world of work is changing and can be used to enhance people’s lives whilst increasing efficiency.

Why is it a sad state?

 

[Scaramanga]

Business embracing new technologies and championing work/life balance will thrive.

By offering remote working you can access skills you might not have access to because of geography.

The world of work is changing and can be used to enhance people’s lives whilst increasing efficiency.

Why is it a sad state?

I know three people that are working from home, all mon good money, all admittedly saying they are getting lazy. I disagree with it. Also 9m not sure how new technologies will help ALL businesses for working from home.

 

[seasideone]

Businesses will and should adapt or die. Changes in the workplace have always happened.

What I am seeing is that it is a lot harder to skill people up when they are away from the office - it's not impossible but harder.

I am not sure about the permanent work from home model, as if that can be done many companies may as well look off sure more for more cheaper labour.

Some companies may well cut salaries for work from home - but in a market where good staff tend to demand a premium - it's probably a bit short sighted.

Personally, providing the employees goals are met - some form of hybrid will become the norm.

I also hated working from home as I missed the office banter and social side.

 

[TheRealKingKenny]

I know three people that are working from home, all mon good money, all admittedly saying they are getting lazy. I disagree with it. Also 9m not sure how new technologies will help ALL businesses for working from home.

Disagree with what? Your mates being lazy? I disagree with that too but if outputs and deliverables are monitored as they should be then some businesses will be able to see a drop in productivity and act accordingly.

Remote working won’t be the right thing for all businesses. However, it can have benefits for the workforce and productivity of some businesses so shouldn’t just be discounted as people being lazy.

I know people who worked ridiculous hours on pandemic response and did the whole thing remotely.

 

[Scaramanga]

Disagree with what? Your mates being lazy? I disagree with that too but if outputs and deliverables are monitored as they should be then some businesses will be able to see a drop in productivity and act accordingly.

Remote working won’t be the right thing for all businesses. However, it can have benefits for the workforce and productivity of some businesses so shouldn’t just be discounted as people being lazy.

I know people who worked ridiculous hours on pandemic response and did the whole thing remotely.

Proof will be in the long term pudding. Its not working too well with Passports and driving licenses at the moment is it.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

This article originally appeared on a website for lawyers called Roll on Friday. There are some insightful comments on that thread for anyone who is interested.

There seems to have been a bit of general muck spreading going on about the particular slaw Firm in question from what I’ve seen.

My understanding was that it’s not quite what the headlines are portraying. This is about offering employees contracted on historical terms and with the advantage of London Weighting the same terms as staff who were taken on during lockdown on a purely ‘work from home’ basis.

I really don’t see the issue at all given the circumstances.

 

[EagleDay]

Some employers are already outsourcing their workforce as 'Home based' for certain sections of work.
If you call customer services for Argos, Virgin, Sky etc, etc......these staff are now 90% home based....

It's going to be the future of (certain) employment

And a bloody nuisance half the time, on a number of occasions.......too many.........the rep has not been able to help because the necessary information is not available from the home computer.

 

[BFC1980]

Whilst there are many people who think working from home is good, it'd be interesting to see the longer term mental health impact from this. Humans are a social species (with the exception of some) and being at home, sometimes alone, for what would effectively be 24 hours a day, I just can't see how this is healthy.
As someone here said, they met their wife at work, I personally have met many girlfriends at work and yes, productivity increases when working at home as there's feck all else to do except watch daytime TV. But from a social perspective, being at work, wherever that may be, is much better. Bitchin about the boss or customer, bouncing ideas off each other, general chit chat and banter are all important aspects of being in a working environment.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Proof will be in the long term pudding. Its not working too well with Passports and driving licenses at the moment is it.

Public sector unable to manage change effectively again?

 

[BigHandsOliverKahn]

Just been reading about a London workforce who have said that from now on if you choose to work from home, you have to take 20% pay cut. Also read other reports from America that people are complaining about not being allowed to work from home.

I don't understand why anyone would possibly want to work from home. I had to teach from home for 7 months straight and I absolutely hated it. Sure I had much more free time when at home, I could wake up an hour later, go for a run during my lunch hour, play with the dog, spend more time with my kids as they were also learning at home. But nothing beats the feeling of being at work, in my own classroom, face to face teaching and meeting colleagues.

Have people become too lazy to drag themselves out of bed in the morning and get to the office or is there a genuine fear of catching Covid?

All of my team are 4,000 miles away in India. Why should I drive 50 miles a day wasting time, petrol and money just to open up the same laptop screen sat inside a UK office?

 

[Scaramanga]

I’m sure the government which ever it is will be over the moon with the loss in Tax revenues.

 

[Discojohndeary]

interestingly, you describe a better work / life balance in your own life but reject it in favour of maintaining a pre-Covid status quo

The article about the 20% pay cut is this one, I assume. Nothing to do with either laziness or fear of catching Covid as far as I can see

Law firm says staff can work from home - for 20% less pay

Staff can choose to work remotely, but will have their pay cut, says city law firm Stephenson Harwood.

www.bbc.co.uk

you could even spend some of that time ‘saved’ to learn the language of the country that you have lived in for so long

Recidivist. I agree with the point you made, but not with the jibe about teaching online. It's an absolute nightmare teaching a group of 30 kids a foreign language online. If you've never had to do it, you wouldn't understand.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

There seems to have been a bit of general muck spreading going on about the particular slaw Firm in question from what I’ve seen.

My understanding was that it’s not quite what the headlines are portraying. This is about offering employees contracted on historical terms and with the advantage of London Weighting the same terms as staff who were taken on during lockdown on a purely ‘work from home’ basis.

I really don’t see the issue at all given the circumstances.

Yes SH are arguing that they’re simply ensuring consistency between pre Covid staff and those recruited during the pandemic but I’m not sure people are convinced. You only need to look at the comments and the likes v the dislikes to see where the general sentiment lies ie it’s just a cynical attempt by equity partners to cut the salaries of junior staff.

 

[Killingmesoftly]

I’m confident most civil servants can do the best part of fuk all at home or in the office so makes little difference?

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Yes SH are arguing that they’re simply ensuring consistency between pre Covid staff and those recruited during the pandemic but I’m not sure people are convinced. You only need to look at the comments and the likes v the dislikes to see where the general sentiment lies ie it’s just a cynical attempt by equity partners to cut the salaries of junior staff.

The only cynical thing going on is the competing Lawyers who’ve jumped on media click bait and happily distorted the truth to do a bit of self-promotion on various SM platforms.

Bunch of wankers

 

[TheRealKingKenny]

Proof will be in the long term pudding. Its not working too well with Passports and driving licenses at the moment is it.

Remote working doesn’t really have anything to do with this. I work with the government on their change and transformation programmes, where staff are working from is the least of their worries when it comes to implementing change.

The main challenges are resources, culture and skills shortages. Much easier to address skills shortages when you can tap into the whole country rather than relying on a 25 miles radius around an office.

 

[Scaramanga]

Remote working doesn’t really have anything to do with this. I work with the government on their change and transformation programmes, where staff are working from is the least of their worries when it comes to implementing change.

The main challenges are resources, culture and skills shortages. Much easier to address skills shortages when you can tap into the whole country rather than relying on a 25 miles radius around an office.

Well w clearly won’t agree on this then will we.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

The only cynical thing going on is the competing Lawyers who’ve jumped on media click bait and happily distorted the truth to do a bit of self-promotion on various SM platforms.

Bunch of wankers

I doubt it’s competitors bearing in mind a lot of them are probably thinking “what a bloody good idea; do you think we can get away with it?”. It’s more likely SH staff or junior staff in other firms indirectly having a pop at their own senior partners.

The good news for junior lawyers (and also similar professions such as accountants) is that there’s a lot of demand for them at the moment. As someone said to me “there’s a battle for talent at the moment. And the talent is winning”.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I doubt it’s competitors bearing in mind a lot of them are probably thinking “what a bloody good idea; do you think we can get away with it?”. It’s more likely SH staff or junior staff in other firms indirectly having a pop at their own senior partners.

The good news for junior lawyers (and also similar professions such as accountants) is that there’s a lot of demand for them at the moment. As someone said to me “there’s a battle for talent at the moment. And the talent is winning”.

You’ve not seen the SM posts that I have then…Loads of firms have jumped on it already for self-promotion purposes….

There’s a battle for talent in most professions Mex, but Junior Lawyers won’t gain much by sitting at a desk in their bedroom on the end of a computer….. They really need to be interacting with and learning from senior colleagues and that’s where the office environment comes into its own.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

You’ve not seen the SM posts that I have then…Loads of firms have jumped on it already for self-promotion purposes….

There’s a battle for talent in most professions Mex, but Junior Lawyers won’t gain much by sitting at a desk in their bedroom on the end of a computer….. They really need to be interacting with and learning from senior colleagues and that’s where the office environment comes into its own.

I can see the argument about office working/mentoring but it only goes so far imo. Depends what the individual wants in terms of career progression (especially as they get older and acquire family commitments) and whether they’re prepared to make the sacrifices involved in climbing the greasy pole. And obviously as they get older they’re going to be less impressed by the “pearls of wisdom” handed down by their “elders and betters”. Listening to my kids (all now in their early 30s) they haven’t got many illusions about the attributes of their line managers, all the way to the top of some pretty big organisations.

Anyway I’m pleased to hear that the battle for talent isn’t confined to any particular sector. Too many employers have been too complacent for too long and the better ones may finally start listening to what their staff actually want. As opposed to what they think they should want.

 

[Wizaard]

And a bloody nuisance half the time, on a number of occasions.......too many.........the rep has not been able to help because the necessary information is not available from the home computer.

That's just shit IT. They've not adapted for the new model. If they did, how would you actually know someone on the phone was at home, in a call centre in India, or in a city centre office? You wouldn't.

 

[Pauls_Boutique]

WFH certainly has more pros than cons for me personally. I work 3 days at home and 2 in the office.

As mentioned above I save approx 2 hours a day on a commute which given the cost of fuel now works out at about £40 a week saved. Not to mention extra time with the family, sharing school run duties etc.

Productivity is up, targets are met monthly rather than occasionally as the majority of people are more comfortable.

I get the arguement about office banter and socialising, but equally how good is it to be away from the colleagues who constantly find things to moan about. Anyone who has worked in a office will know these people drag the whole thing down.

When done properly WFH should be the norm in future.

 

[EagleDay]

That's just shit IT. They've not adapted for the new model. If they did, how would you actually know someone on the phone was at home, in a call centre in India, or in a city centre office? You wouldn't.

It's obvious when it's a call centre in India because they always give a false name like Fred or Tommy or Joe etc.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I can see the argument about office working/mentoring but it only goes so far imo. Depends what the individual wants in terms of career progression (especially as they get older and acquire family commitments) and whether they’re prepared to make the sacrifices involved in climbing the greasy pole. And obviously as they get older they’re going to be less impressed by the “pearls of wisdom” handed down by their “elders and betters”. Listening to my kids (all now in their early 30s) they haven’t got many illusions about the attributes of their line managers, all the way to the top of some pretty big organisations.

Anyway I’m pleased to hear that the battle for talent isn’t confined to any particular sector. Too many employers have been too complacent for too long and the better ones may finally start listening to what their staff actually want. As opposed to what they think they should want.

I'm not sure what you mean "it only goes so far"... It's not all about the greasy pole, but rather just developing from trainee to having a level of competence to perform a functional and worthwhile role. There's only so far that theoretical learning can take you and so you either develop through mentoring or you basically adopt an approached where everyone is forced to learn from their own mistakes.... So if we don't have a system for mentoring and development then ultimately we end up dumbing down as individuals and as businesses and the product decreases in value thereby reducing the ability to sustain an expected level of income and ultimately everyone (including the employee) loses out.

I think we've always had a "know it all" attitude from the younger generation coming through the ranks in any working environment - they exists in schools, colleges, universities and the working environment is no different. There's maybe a bit more of an attitude today where the younger generation expect it all, without putting in the hard miles (maybe because many of them have seen limited hardship) and to some extent with a shortfall in the workforce that's kind of working out for them right now, but as we know, that won't last forever and at some point the pendulum will shift in the other direction and being a high paid / limited skilled individual, mortgaged to the hilt isn't a secure place to be sitting. We may well find ourselves seeing another period of super high inflation, mass unemployment and home repossession similar to the late 80's/early 90's, if things continue to escalate.

I do agree it's very important to listen to what staff want, but of course, business owners also have a much broader responsibility to their customers, to the long term future of the business itself and to ensuring that they offer job security over the longer term. That means there has to always be a balance struck.

 

[Bottle]

Why are people so resistant to change? Terms like “workshy” don’t help. Thanks to COVID the world of work, at least for office staff, has now changed.

We have had these changes forever you know. I wonder if there were disparaging threads about the bloody crop rotation system and the introduction of the frikkin Jacquard Loom!

People are adaptable, and will adapt to a new way of working and for once we might find the employers and employees can see the benefit of some home and some office based work mixing to provide a satisfactory environment that pleases everyone.

A monumental shift has occurred practically overnight, the next step will be virtual reality meetings and office environments of course, not that these aren’t happening in a rudimentary form even now.

And before the Teachers start kicking off I seem to recall Sonny Hammond from Skippy having his lessons delivered over short wave radio and no bloody poncy “Teams Meetings” available either and that was 55 years ago, mate

 

[EagleDay]

Why are people so resistant to change? Terms like “workshy” don’t help. Thanks to COVID the world of work, at least for office staff, has now changed.

We have had these changes forever you know. I wonder if there were disparaging threads about the bloody crop rotation system and the introduction of the frikkin Jacquard Loom!

People are adaptable, and will adapt to a new way of working and for once we might find the employers and employees can see the benefit of some home and some office based work mixing to provide a satisfactory environment that pleases everyone.

A monumental shift has occurred practically overnight, the next step will be virtual reality meetings and office environments of course, not that these aren’t happening in a rudimentary form even now.

And before the Teachers start kicking off I seem to recall Sonny Hammond from Skippy having his lessons delivered over short wave radio and no bloody poncy “Teams Meetings” available either and that was 55 years ago, mate

At least crop rotation and the loom worked, bloody customer services working from home is diabolical.

 

[TotallyTangerine]

It's obvious when it's a call centre in India because they always give a false name like Fred or Tommy or Joe etc.

Was it a subconscious thing picking the names of some of our past ‘greats!’

 

[EagleDay]

Was it a subconscious thing picking the names of some of our past ‘greats!’

That's weird.

 

[Always tangerine]

No.

 

[Shandypants]

This subject has been done to death on here. Its quite boring now, needless to say it helps fuel the culture war. I recall a time (not too long ago) where battle lines didn't exist on every single topic. The govt must be laughing how easy it is to divide and rule.

 

[Wizaard]

Why are people so resistant to change? Terms like “workshy” don’t help. Thanks to COVID the world of work, at least for office staff, has now changed.

We have had these changes forever you know. I wonder if there were disparaging threads about the bloody crop rotation system and the introduction of the frikkin Jacquard Loom!

People are adaptable, and will adapt to a new way of working and for once we might find the employers and employees can see the benefit of some home and some office based work mixing to provide a satisfactory environment that pleases everyone.

A monumental shift has occurred practically overnight, the next step will be virtual reality meetings and office environments of course, not that these aren’t happening in a rudimentary form even now.

And before the Teachers start kicking off I seem to recall Sonny Hammond from Skippy having his lessons delivered over short wave radio and no bloody poncy “Teams Meetings” available either and that was 55 years ago, mate

Opposition to looms with the Luddite movement was because of the switch to factory working from home piece work. Goes to show nothing changes really.

 

[585 = never give up]

My mate works for the Environment Agency and is still working from home.
Others I know in London say it saves them a fortune on travel (around £3000 PA) / clothing / lunches etc.
Some unions (civil servants) fully support home working and restist and attempts to get staff to return to the office.
The Government should order public sector workers back to the office, where full efficiency can be restored.

 

[Wizaard]

My mate works for the Environment Agency and is still working from home.
Others I know in London say it saves them a fortune on travel (around £3000 PA) / clothing / lunches etc.
Some unions (civil servants) fully support home working and restist and attempts to get staff to return to the office.
The Government should order public sector workers back to the office, where full efficiency can be restored.

Explain why it's more efficient. There is absolutely no evidence to say Departmental efficiency has been compromised. If anything, people have been more productive through home working.

The only benefit claimed is around water cooler serendipitous meetings, hardly a measurable outcome.

I have no issue with an element of hybrid working, but going in for the sake of it wastes millions of hours of travel time and cost, does damage to the environment and damages mental health.

The main reason for going back is to protect the big business cronies of the privatised estate.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Explain why it's more efficient. There is absolutely no evidence to say Departmental efficiency has been compromised. If anything, people have been more productive through home working.

The only benefit claimed is around water cooler serendipitous meetings, hardly a measurable outcome.

I have no issue with an element of hybrid working, but going in for the sake of it wastes millions of hours of travel time and cost, does damage to the environment and damages mental health.

The main reason for going back is to protect the big business cronies of the privatised estate.

In fairness, we’ve got absolutely no idea as to what the long term impacts of the dramatic changes to working practices will be.

The environmental argument is complete bullshit for starters, because in most cases, office environments are still operational and it costs way more to heat / light homes for individuals than it does to heat a single location.

There’s loads of additional as a benefits and efficiencies to having staff together in a collective environment, which include social contact, improved mental health, collective problem solving, staff development, learning & mentoring, innovation, moral support & increased motivation to name just a few.

The difficulty we have here is that many of the issues that will inevitably result from widespread home working are slow burning and will only start to rear their heads over a protracted period.

There is, of course, a balance to be struck…,

 

[Wizaard]

In fairness, we’ve got absolutely no idea as to what the long term impacts of the dramatic changes to working practices will be.

The environmental argument is complete bullshit for starters, because in most cases, office environments are still operational and it costs way more to heat / light homes for individuals than it does to heat a single location.

There’s loads of additional as a benefits and efficiencies to having staff together in a collective environment, which include social contact, improved mental health, collective problem solving, staff development, learning & mentoring, innovation, moral support & increased motivation to name just a few.

The difficulty we have here is that many of the issues that will inevitably result from widespread home working are slow burning and will only start to rear their heads over a protracted period.

There is, of course, a balance to be struck…,

Yes, balance is key.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

In fairness, we’ve got absolutely no idea as to what the long term impacts of the dramatic changes to working practices will be.

The environmental argument is complete bullshit for starters, because in most cases, office environments are still operational and it costs way more to heat / light homes for individuals than it does to heat a single location.

There’s loads of additional as a benefits and efficiencies to having staff together in a collective environment, which include social contact, improved mental health, collective problem solving, staff development, learning & mentoring, innovation, moral support & increased motivation to name just a few.

The difficulty we have here is that many of the issues that will inevitably result from widespread home working are slow burning and will only start to rear their heads over a protracted period.

There is, of course, a balance to be struck…,

Why is the environmental argument complete bullshit?

Sit in a car in a traffic jam spewing out toxic fumes for a minimum of two hours on your way to and from work.

Or don’t.

Seems pretty clear to me.