Holocaust Memorial Day

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basilrobbie

Guest
It is 76 years this week since the first news of the atrocities in Poland and Germany started to emerge ; though many people living in Germany knew that something untoward was going on, the sheer scale and barbarity of it was a huge shock then - and still is now.

It would be nice to think that it was a watershed moment, and marked the end of genocide as a policy option. However, subsequent events in places like Rwanda, Burma, the former Yugoslavia, Syria and (more recently) China prove that our capacity for bestial behaviour towards one another continues.

It also serves to illustrate the danger of populist Governments lead by demagogues. How they get their hands on the levers of power is less important than what they then do with them. The polarisation of political debate continues to be extremely dangerous for everyone.

RIP to the victims, whose only "crime" was to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time
 
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Glad someone brought it up because it really doesn't get the deserved amount of publicity generally, and its something that on occasions is deliberately missed.
I know Israel has many critics in how it conducts itself, but the sole issue of what happened during the Holocaust in a world where we seem to moving backwards morally and socially.

Worth mentioning too Operation Keelhaul which was the forced repatriation of Soviet soldiers who had been caught after siding with the Germans, where the Allies sent these men back to a certain death. Some terrible stuff with WW2 and you do wonder if collectively we will ever learn.
 
US, UK and USSR leaders knew about two million deaths with another 5 million possible as early as December 1942.
 
Went to Auschwitz two years ago. Not a pleasant trip but essential, the horror of that place oozes out the fabric. The sheer barbarity shocked me, I can sort of understand individuals being psychopaths but the place was run by them. How did the likes of Mengele and all the other nutters end up there.
I can only hope that if I was a German I wouldn't have taken part. That question haunts me, I bet the Germans who served there probably said the same.
 
basilrobbie said:
It also serves to illustrate the danger of populist Governments lead by demagogues. How they get their hands on the levers of power is less important than what they then do with them.
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I would say that preventing demagogues getting their hands on power is the only important step. Prevent that and the rest does not follow. Which requires education to make prejudice and intolerance towards groups of people unacceptable. So that charismatic crazies do not attract a following.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
They couldn’t have done anything till those countries were liberated.

Or you saying they could?
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I was politely disputing BasRob’s ‘76 years’, tho’ he may well have been referring to the general public but, as you ask, I don’t think that you can talk in absolutes and say that ‘they couldn’t have done anything till those countries were liberated’ because it’s patently not true.

One insight below. I appreciate there are many opposing views on what could or could not have been done

 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
They couldn’t have done anything till those countries were liberated.

Or you saying they could?
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There was a TV programme on last night about what the Allies knew and when.

The Allies had known since November 1942 that Jews were being killed en masse in Auschwitz, because it was published in the New York Times. Before that the Allies had received messages from Captain Witold Pilecki, a Pole who had volunteered to infiltrate Auschwitz in 1940 and survived until April 1943 when he escaped.

His messages were passed to the Allies through the Polish Government-in-exile in London who published a report called “The Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland” on 10 December 1942 which was sent to 26 national governments which had already signed the treaty forming the Allies in the war. Many Allied leaders found it difficult to believe the Germans were capable of an atrocity on such a scale, even though there were enough indications in Nazi propaganda.
en.m.wikipedia.org

The Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

There were options in ‘43 and also in ‘44 after the two Slovaks escaped Auschwitz in April ‘44 and soon passed written notes (Vrba–Wetzler report) of their eye-witness accounts of the worst atrocities. There were a few other escapees as well, mainly from the Auschwitz II factories and I.G. Farben. Birkenau was the death camp.

The Allies considered bombing the transport infrastructure to the camps as well as the Birkenau gas chambers themselves. The latter was considered impossible due to bombing accuracy, but the former rejected by Harris in ‘43-44 who wanted RAF Bomber Command to concentrate on “dehousing” German cities.

In late ‘44 the military, particularly the USA wanted to concentrate on reinforcing the Normandy invasion and the subsequent drive into Germany. Sadly or pragmatically (both probably) stopping the death camps had little strategic military priority for them. By 1944 it was too late, death camps such as Sobibor, Belzec and Treblinka had completed their murderous activities and been dismantled by the Nazis by October 1943.
 
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Recidivist3 said:
I was politely disputing BasRob’s ‘76 years’, tho’ he may well have been referring to the general public but, as you ask, I don’t think that you can talk in absolutes and say that ‘they couldn’t have done anything till those countries were liberated’ because it’s patently not true.

One insight below. I appreciate there are many opposing views on what could or could not have been done

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We’ll never know if anymore could have been done Churchill certainly knew of such camps existing in the east but apart from flattening the camps with bombs by the RAF I still don’t know what more could have been done till liberation day.
Unfortunately the allies had more strategic military priorities that was key to defeating Germany as quickly as possible.
 
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It may sound sick and it baffled me at first, the tour guide said the ones who were gassed straight away were the 'lucky' ones. After seeing the treatment of the prisoners and living conditions I tend to agree.
 
Just seen the story on the six o'clock news. It's just horrible to watch and it really does send a shiver down your spine when you see that railway line leading into the camp. It's something I can't bring myself to think about for too long. I understand why some people feel the need to go and see it as it is an incredible poignant piece in the worlds history but it's something I could never bring myself to do. The thought of all the atrocities carried out there is simply beyond my comprehension and scares the daylights out of me,
RIP to every single person who died and suffered in all those places.
 
My Grandfather and his family were originally from Western Russia, being Jewish they were in for the full force of Nazi atrocities, fortunately for me, my great grandfather had the forethought to send his wife and kids away from what lay ahead, they walked and went by train to mandatory Palestine which in its self was a horrendous journey back then but saved their lives.

My Great Grandfather never came back from the front lines, it’s thought he was killed fighting the Germans in 1942, but to the point of the post my Grandfather’s uncles, aunts and cousins, were never heard from again it’s thought they were killed in the ‘Holocaust by bullets’ as the Germans advanced through Western Russia.

Incredibly moving and heartbreaking listening to his tales of days gone by with the extended family he never saw again nor did he know their ultimate fate. Never again, you’d hope.
 
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20togo said:
Just seen the story on the six o'clock news. It's just horrible to watch and it really does send a shiver down your spine when you see that railway line leading into the camp. It's something I can't bring myself to think about for too long. I understand why some people feel the need to go and see it as it is an incredible poignant piece in the worlds history but it's something I could never bring myself to do. The thought of all the atrocities carried out there is simply beyond my comprehension and scares the daylights out of me,
RIP to every single person who died and suffered in all those places.
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I went with my wife 20's and can assure you its as chilling in real life as it looks on telly. My point is I think it should be compulsory for every body to go and see what can happen when intolerance and bigotry are allowed to take hold. During our visit there were lots of groups of young people there with Israel flags and they were given extended tours. I assume many of them lost members of their families. Its a truly harrowing and heartbreaking to see them but inspiring how they support each other and wear the 🇮🇱 flag with pride. We need to remember the victims and ensure we all do our best to be better people and tolerate all views, creeds and religion's.
 
Bob Hatton said:
I went with my wife 20's and can assure you its as chilling in real life as it looks on telly. My point is I think it should be compulsory for every body to go and see what can happen when intolerance and bigotry are allowed to take hold. During our visit there were lots of groups of young people there with Israel flags and they were given extended tours. I assume many of them lost members of their families. Its a truly harrowing and heartbreaking to see them but inspiring how they support each other and wear the 🇮🇱 flag with pride. We need to remember the victims and ensure we all do our best to be better people and tolerate all views, creeds and religion's.
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I'd imagine it's so much more chilling to actually be there. Even reading your post made me shiver.
 
Going to Auschwitz is a haunting experience and one that you will take to the grave with you. The things that we were told and things that we saw brought our large party of adults close to tears on a number of occasions. For me an important experience was seeing the pictures of inmates whom had died at the camp- it seemed as if they were imploring-go and tell the world every one of you about what happened here, this must never happen again.
 
I'm 48, to think that genocide had taken place so often in my lifetime is a bit sickening really.

I'm not convinced it is so much about populism mind. More totalitarianism.

The fact that the Uyghur's and Rohingya's are currently the peoples of choice to be exterminated are both in country's which really don't do democracy being cases in point.

And in China's case, we continue to buy the cotton from their killing fields for a £2 T-Shirt. Makes me sick.
 
And I did a 10 day tour of Poland 20+ years ago.

Went to Auschwitz (and Krakow, Warsaw etc) with a group of students.

In the final bit there was an exhibition with life size style photographs; at one point there was a photograph of an emaciated young woman, I instinctively put my hand out to say, "you're going to be ok" and as I pulled my hand back, I wept.

Overwhelming sadness at depth of sadism the Germans were capable of.

And since then, Hutu's, Serbians, Chinese, Myanmarise

Bit depressing really, but it puts the Brexit disagreement into a context.
 
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I wish it was on the curriculum for all secondary school children to be told about what happened and then as part of this education to watch together a film such as schindlers list or the The boy in the striped pyjamas. They would clearly need support both before during and after this experience. I would also hope that they are encouraged at a later date in their life to visit the camp if they are able to. We must never forget.
 
Shandypants said:
Went to Auschwitz two years ago. Not a pleasant trip but essential, the horror of that place oozes out the fabric. The sheer barbarity shocked me, I can sort of understand individuals being psychopaths but the place was run by them. How did the likes of Mengele and all the other nutters end up there.
I can only hope that if I was a German I wouldn't have taken part. That question haunts me, I bet the Germans who served there probably said the same.
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Did the Auswitch tour years ago. Such an eerie and spooky place. It’s like the atrocities will never leave.
 
TSSeasider said:
It's difficult to do much about it as the supply chains aren't transparent.

Needs an international answer, but I can't see one coming, sadly.
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You're probably right, but I wish more people would try. We boycott Sky ** products, and Tesco, and la Reborn won't have palm oil in the house. But she's one in a thousand, sadly.

** I'm allowed the Sunday Times, for educational purposes.
 
basilrobbie said:
You're probably right, but I wish more people would try. We boycott Sky ** products, and Tesco, and la Reborn won't have palm oil in the house. But she's one in a thousand, sadly.

** I'm allowed the Sunday Times, for educational purposes.
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NAPM on an international scale 👍
 
I've just spent a spellbinding hour watching a documentary on BBC4 about the Windermere Project,. It recounts how a few hundred orphaned Jewish children were rescued and rehabilitated in a project conceived by the philanthropist Leonard Montefiore. At the same time it was harrowing and completely uplifting and made me proud of what being British can be when decent people rise to the occasion.
 
I have read many books about the treatment of 'the unwanted' in Nazi Germany , as well as the treatment of captives in the USSR, dissidents in China and many more. All are absolutely horrendous and none of these countries can point the finger at others following their recent mistreatment of human beings. Why do I say 'the unwanted'? Simply because there were others besides the Jews who were exterminated in WW2 Nazi extermination camps. I concede that the Jews were the vast majority of the victims, but others, such as the disabled, homosexuals, gypsies, Catholic Priests and other unfortunates were also victims.

To my point, having read of the atrocities, I thought I would be able to visit Auschwitz without becoming upset, knowing what, as I thought, I was going to see and hear.

How wrong I was. The whole place has the feeling of evil and death and certainly strains ones senses to the limit. Onward to Birkehau, the extermination camp and the utter size of the site is unbelievable. Walking up to the gatehouse with the railway running through it has a feeling of foreboding and even on quite a warm day, it felt cold.

I held myself together until I arrived at the monument erected to remember the Holocaust, where a gathering of around 20 young Jews were in a circle, arms around each other with an Israel flag in the centre, singing cantations, obviously from their religion. That did me. I burst out crying, and am doing so as I write, unable to control my feelings.

I will never forget, and as harassing as the books are in their descriptions of the atrocities, believe me it is nothing to actually visiting the place.

Everyone should make an effort to visit this place, it is an education that will stay with you

May they all Rest In Peace.
 
Ruperthoop said:
I wish it was on the curriculum for all secondary school children to be told about what happened and then as part of this education to watch together a film such as schindlers list or the The boy in the striped pyjamas. They would clearly need support both before during and after this experience. I would also hope that they are encouraged at a later date in their life to visit the camp if they are able to. We must never forget.
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I have got the DVD of The boy in the striped pyjamas and have had it for several years. I read a review before I had chance to watch it and have not had the enthusiasm to actually play it.
 
Curryman said:
I have read many books about the treatment of 'the unwanted' in Nazi Germany , as well as the treatment of captives in the USSR, dissidents in China and many more. All are absolutely horrendous and none of these countries can point the finger at others following their recent mistreatment of human beings. Why do I say 'the unwanted'? Simply because there were others besides the Jews who were exterminated in WW2 Nazi extermination camps. I concede that the Jews were the vast majority of the victims, but others, such as the disabled, homosexuals, gypsies, Catholic Priests and other unfortunates were also victims.

To my point, having read of the atrocities, I thought I would be able to visit Auschwitz without becoming upset, knowing what, as I thought, I was going to see and hear.

How wrong I was. The whole place has the feeling of evil and death and certainly strains ones senses to the limit. Onward to Birkehau, the extermination camp and the utter size of the site is unbelievable. Walking up to the gatehouse with the railway running through it has a feeling of foreboding and even on quite a warm day, it felt cold.

I held myself together until I arrived at the monument erected to remember the Holocaust, where a gathering of around 20 young Jews were in a circle, arms around each other with an Israel flag in the centre, singing cantations, obviously from their religion. That did me. I burst out crying, and am doing so as I write, unable to control my feelings.

I will never forget, and as harassing as the books are in their descriptions of the atrocities, believe me it is nothing to actually visiting the place.

Everyone should make an effort to visit this place, it is an education that will stay with you

May they all Rest In Peace.
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I can feel your emotions coming out of that post. Really well written.

I had a similar experience the first time I went to Auschwitz.
As a young man I spent two and a half years living in Israel.
I was part of a group that went to visit Auschwitz as well as a few other places.

When we were all there, we similarly gathered in a circle just out side the semi destroyed entrance to the gas chambers.

I’m quiet a down to earth person and don’t really care for mystical stuff, but at that moment that same hollow, somber, death like wind of a feeling brushed over me.

It was as if I could feel all the souls that had perished there, with their anguished faces reach out and put their hands on my shoulders. There were tens of people milling around by our group, and even though it’s not the loudest place anyway everything felt silent for me, I swear it was like I was there alone with all those ghosts for a split second.

Again I’m not a particularly emotional person, but after those few surreal seconds, I found tears running down my cheeks.

We carried on our walk, around Birkenau, draped in our Israeli flags, and I honestly felt that same presence as before walk with us, watching us in our blue and white flags, it was as if we were telling them, we survived and flourished. I don’t know, maybe I’m mad but it’s the only time in my life where I can say something like that happened to me.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
We’ll never know if anymore could have been done Churchill certainly knew of such camps existing in the east but apart from flattening the camps with bombs by the RAF I still don’t know what more could have been done till liberation day.
Unfortunately the allies had more strategic military priorities that was key to defeating Germany as quickly as possible.
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The allies did right. Defeating and removing the Nazi regime had to have priority.
 
I'd be very reluctant to be too critical of the Allies for their priority-setting back then. Even if they knew most of what was going on, those people could no longer be saved. What they did eventually do saved millions and millions more.

I can never quite understand why we still refer to WW1 as "The Great War". I know that in part it refers to the pointless carnage of the trenches. But I think that the nature of the war in the East between 1941-45 transcends anything that has ever been seen elsewhere, with the possible exceptions of Cambodia and Rwanda. And they weren't "wars" as such.
 
basilrobbie said:
I'd be very reluctant to be too critical of the Allies for their priority-setting back then. Even if they knew most of what was going on, those people could no longer be saved. What they did eventually do saved millions and millions more.

I can never quite understand why we still refer to WW1 as "The Great War". I know that in part it refers to the pointless carnage of the trenches. But I think that the nature of the war in the East between 1941-45 transcends anything that has ever been seen elsewhere, with the possible exceptions of Cambodia and Rwanda. And they weren't "wars" as such.
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Would you say that the far East conflict 41-45 even 'transcends' the rape, pillage and murderous atrocities committed by the 3rd Reich on it its march into and retreat from the USSR? Including the battle of Stalingrad and the siege of Lenningrad?
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Would you say that the far East conflict 41-45 even 'transcends' the rape, pillage and murderous atrocities committed by the 3rd Reich on it its march into and retreat from the USSR? Including the battle of Stalingrad and the siege of Lenningrad?
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It was the Russian campaign I was referring to, 1966.
 
basilrobbie said:
I can never quite understand why we still refer to WW1 as "The Great War". I know that in part it refers to the pointless carnage of the trenches. But I think that the nature of the war in the East between 1941-45 transcends anything that has ever been seen elsewhere, with the possible exceptions of Cambodia and Rwanda. And they weren't "wars" as such.
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Obviously, it became described as the Great War in the 20s and 30s and the name has stuck despite WW2 following on. In terms of military casualties for the British Empire, WW1 far exceeded WW2 so it seems appropriate still.

The Russians call WW2 the “Great Patriotic War”. Those that fought it can name it. Mind you, they used the term successively for Napoleon’s 1812 invasion, WW1 and finally WW2, each one being bigger than the previous.
 
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basilrobbie said:
I'd be very reluctant to be too critical of the Allies for their priority-setting back then. Even if they knew most of what was going on, those people could no longer be saved. What they did eventually do saved millions and millions more.

I can never quite understand why we still refer to WW1 as "The Great War". I know that in part it refers to the pointless carnage of the trenches. But I think that the nature of the war in the East between 1941-45 transcends anything that has ever been seen elsewhere, with the possible exceptions of Cambodia and Rwanda. And they weren't "wars" as such.
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It was called the Great War throughout the 20s and 30s, but was overtaken by events. I dont think they'd expected another.

Far more died in during the timeframe of WW2.
 
I love Germany and most of the German people I have met.
However, I can't get my head around how they allowed Hitler to do what he did.
Okay, he used bully boy tactics during the 1933 elections and went on from there.
The German people should have done something, however painful to many of them, and brought him down.
He wasn't even German by birth, he was Austrian.
I had a good German friend years ago, who we met on holiday. We actually stayed with him & wife a few times. A great guy.
He was of an age that he would have been conscripted into the forces. However he saw the writing on the wall and went to Switzerland to live until long after the war was over.
 
I visited Auschwitz about 20 years ago and the memory will never leave me. Since then if people I know are going to Krakow for a few days my personal recommendation has been to go to Auschwitz on the first day and then enjoy the city rather than visiting that horrific evil place and then coming straight home. As an aside if anyone has an opportunity to visit the Documentation centre near Berchtesgaden don’t miss as it is a cold honest factual appraisal of what happened in Germany under the Nazis.
 
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