HS2

You could cut services all over the place and the general public wouldnt moan, (only those who moan for moanings sake) change times of rush hour and add another service, everyone would be happy.
 
foggy said:
Why not both? Infrastructure spending helps growth.
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It is massively expensive and, for me, the wrong project.we need a cross-England upgrade in the North, to the same standard as cross-rail in London - no hand-me-down rolling stock. Station upgrades, rolling stock and track. It's also needed across Scotland and up through Wales. But no, it's London, London, London.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
It is massively expensive and, for me, the wrong project.we need a cross-England upgrade in the North, to the same standard as cross-rail in London - no hand-me-down rolling stock. Station upgrades, rolling stock and track. It's also needed across Scotland and up through Wales. But no, it's London, London, London.
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Why not HS2 and the cross England upgrade? It will still be less than the combined price of Crossrail and the not cancelled Crossrail 2.

Michelle Mone can pay for it.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
It is massively expensive and, for me, the wrong project.we need a cross-England upgrade in the North, to the same standard as cross-rail in London - no hand-me-down rolling stock. Station upgrades, rolling stock and track. It's also needed across Scotland and up through Wales. But no, it's London, London, London.
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It's massively expensive because half of it is in tunnels to pander to nimbys, you could cut the cost drastically if we weren't such a zombie country that can't build things properly anymore. But Britain is full of transport projects that were apparently too costly but then ended up paying the cost back within a few years. The Elizabeth line was massively delayed and overbudget to the tune of about 24 billion and it's already about to break even by the end of the year, after only being open for 2 years. Invest in transport. It's always worth it. (almost).
 
Wizaard said:
Why not HS2 and the cross England upgrade? It will still be less than the combined price of Crossrail and the not cancelled Crossrail 2.

Michelle Mone can pay for it.
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I was trying to point out the lack of credibility in anything this lot turn their hands to. They aren't interested in the North of England, Scotland and Wales. Great Western is a first class railway well served with decent stations and rolling stock. So, to a lesser degree is the East. But, home is where your heart is and for Sunak's mob, it ain't anywhere but the South-East.
 
foggy said:
It's massively expensive because half of it is in tunnels to pander to nimbys, you could cut the cost drastically if we weren't such a zombie country that can't build things properly anymore. But Britain is full of transport projects that were apparently too costly but then ended up paying the cost back within a few years. The Elizabeth line was massively delayed and overbudget to the tune of about 24 billion and it's already about to break even by the end of the year, after only being open for 2 years. Invest in transport. It's always worth it. (almost).
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You're pushing at an open door with me foggy.
 
It seemed like a vanity project from the start. Granted our rail network is still mainly relying on the Victorian infrastructure & has slipped miles behind other countries through years of neglect. But as suggested above it should have started in the North. It needs massive investment & the strikes resolving. If we are to attempt to get cars & lorries off the roads as a green policy fares also need to be realistic. The railways need to be publicly funded.
I started to write this about half an hour ago but got distracted 🙄
 
The train system is treated like a mobile office . . . personally I spend as much time on the train working as I do behind my desk.

They should have spent the cash on making the trains more comfortable, more tables, better WI FI, power to every seat, etc.

It's a total vanity project and should have been scrapped years ago.
 
There is no way he would announce the cancellation of the link to Manchester whilst err, standing in Manchester.
Expect it cancelled next month.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I was trying to point out the lack of credibility in anything this lot turn their hands to. They aren't interested in the North of England, Scotland and Wales. Great Western is a first class railway well served with decent stations and rolling stock. So, to a lesser degree is the East. But, home is where your heart is and for Sunak's mob, it ain't anywhere but the South-East.
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Totally right. Still, we should be grateful for the South's castoffs?
 
Working on the franchises for main lines in the UK for many years; the bottom line there is no capacity on the main routes; in part due to the ancient infrastructure. We need more infrastructure, like 60 years ago. If Sunak cannot deliver a rail line from London to Manchester then what can he do; absolutely useless.
 
But there is a rail line from London to Manchester, and one that runs regularly unless the greedy rail workers go on strike
I can get to London from home (Egerton) in a few hours (using all public transfer) so why on earth is there a need for a faster train.
Ask the people of Greater Manchester if they would prefer HS2 or the money invested in the local infrastructure or improvements to the NHS. It’s a no brainer but if it was to go ahead what would it contribute to the economy.
 
The thing with HS2 is that it is not just about cutting 20 mins of Manchester to London, its about increasing capacity.
If you take the line from London to Rugby as an example, you have suburban trains competing with main line trains to the north as well as considerable freight. Moving the fast trains onto new lines would increase capacity greatly.
Sunak's problem is that costs have gone through the roof, mainly due the actions of his own party but that's another discussion
 
So what do we think? HS2 to Manchester cancelled, but £36 billion to be spent on rail, bus and road Improvements across the north and midlands.
 
Beeching report in 1963 was shortsighted . Lost the General election following year.
Sanuk in 2023 is just so called promises which will take years to plan.
I don’t trust all the plans for Northern improvements.
Shot himself in foot for next election.
 
It’s a strategic move designed to cause a problem to the opposition, they will either have to say that they will reinstate HS2 and cancel the other transport proposals that the £32bn is being ear marked for, not reinstate HS2 or find the extra money to do both. Either option will divide voter opinion. Sunak is not expecting to be Prime Minister after the next general election and if by some chance he is, I can’t see him seeing out a full term so either way not really his problem.
 
Matesrates said:
Continue to Manchester, or spend on improving connections between northern towns. What’s your view?
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foggy said:
Why not both? Infrastructure spending helps growth.
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The original planned cost was £38bn. This has spiralled to almost three times this amount. Sunak says the country cannot afford the revised cost so plans reallocation of the £38bn to providing much needed transport links in the north. If we couldn't afford HS2 then we can't fund both. Which option is better for the north? Surely the new one if it materialises.
 
tommytwojags said:
The original planned cost was £38bn. This has spiralled to almost three times this amount. Sunak says the country cannot afford the revised cost so plans reallocation of the £38bn to providing much needed transport links in the north. If we couldn't afford HS2 then we can't fund both. Which option is better for the north? Surely the new one if it materialises.
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Except many of the 'new announcements' are things that had already been announced, or in some cases things that actually exist. They've been banging on about building the Leeds tram for 20 years.

The problem is, the fact we can't build HS2 is not a problem in isolation, and the fact that costs spiralled is not some independent thing we have no control over. We can't build anything. The Leeds tram was granted approval over 20 years ago and nothing's happened, and apparently now it's an exciting new project. Trams are two and a half more expensive to build in here than France. They've just delayed the decision on whether to turn the A1 into a dual carriage way yet again, a project that was started 15 years ago. We proposed a new road to go under the Thames 10 years ago that has already cost £800m, more than the longest road tunnel in the world, and we haven't event started it yet! Just think about that. The fact things get delayed and cost so much more is a problem with British society and governance. It is not a random thing that just happens some times and scuppers our plans. It will happen again with all these 'new' projects.

We are crap at building, and that doesn't look to be getting any better under the Tories, Labour or Lib Dem, this is cross-party. And all this decision with HS2 does is confirm it more to the world and to investors, and to the campaigners and Nimbys who help make us so crap. If the PM can scrap the biggest infrastructure project in decades in Britain, at a conference in Manchester, with the nation's press in attendance, please don't tell me to expect all of these smaller, disparate projects to go ahead too. It will be far too easy to cancel one here, another there, with nobody looking, and who is going to remember all this in a few years. If they managed to revitalise the entire northern transport system I would be delighted. But it's a bit like asking me if I would be happy if we suddenly built a million new homes a year. Sure I would. It ain't going to happen though.
 
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Matesrates said:
Continue to Manchester, or spend on improving connections between northern towns. What’s your view?
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It was always better to improve transport across the north and midlands towns rather than do HS2. HS2 never represented good value for money and should have been scrapped ages ago. I am just a bit puzzled as to why there wasn't this amount of outcry when the eastern leg of it was cancelled 2 years ago. I live near Lincoln and HS2 would have had zero impact on us, even if the eastern leg had gone ahead. Far more important to us would be any improvements the east coast line (including electrfying the link from Newark to Lincoln), improving the lines to Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds and improving the AI.

The fundamental problem has been, that for decades about 75% of the infrastructure investment has been focused on London and the south east and HS2 was also about linking into London rather than really developing the north and the midlands. There heeds to be a change in mindset from that all 'roads' lead to London and that London is the centre of all development, especially when it is overdeveloped anyway.

There is also a fundamental problem with public infrastructure projects in this country (particularly those run at a national level). They regularly and massively overrun the original budgets and are usually delivered far behind original timscales. Some of that is to do with politics and the complexity of planning processes in this country, but it is still mystifying why the costs per mile of rail laid are many times what they are in the likes of France and take far longer to complete. Crossrail and the link to the Channel tunnel are 2 other examples.
 
bfcpete said:
It was always better to improve transport across the north and midlands towns rather than do HS2. HS2 never represented good value for money and should have been scrapped ages ago. I am just a bit puzzled as to why there wasn't this amount of outcry when the eastern leg of it was cancelled 2 years ago. I live near Lincoln and HS2 would have had zero impact on us, even if the eastern leg had gone ahead. Far more important to us would be any improvements the east coast line (including electrfying the link from Newark to Lincoln), improving the lines to Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds and improving the AI.

The fundamental problem has been, that for decades about 75% of the infrastructure investment has been focused on London and the south east and HS2 was also about linking into London rather than really developing the north and the midlands. There heeds to be a change in mindset from that all 'roads' lead to London and that London is the centre of all development, especially when it is overdeveloped anyway.

There is also a fundamental problem with public infrastructure projects in this country (particularly those run at a national level). They regularly and massively overrun the original budgets and are usually delivered far behind original timscales. Some of that is to do with politics and the complexity of planning processes in this country, but it is still mystifying why the costs per mile of rail laid are many times what they are in the likes of France and take far longer to complete. Crossrail and the link to the Channel tunnel are 2 other examples.
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The idea that HS2 would only have served the benefit of trips to London is a falsehood. The west coast mainline is running at near full capacity and these bottlenecks have knock on effects throughout the north (and midlands). HS2 would have relieved a lot of the pressure on WCM and that would have allowed for upgrades elsewhere. Without it I fail to see how we can do those upgrades. And wow we are just adding more commuter trains onto the existing overcrowded lines.
 
foggy said:
Except many of the 'new announcements' are things that had already been announced, or in some cases things that actually exist. They've been banging on about building the Leeds tram for 20 years.

The problem is, the fact we can't build HS2 is not a problem in isolation, and the fact that costs spiralled is not some independent thing we have no control over. We can't build anything. The Leeds tram was granted approval over 20 years ago and nothing's happened, and apparently now it's an exciting new project. Trams are two and a half more expensive to build in here than France. They've just delayed the decision on whether to turn the A1 into a dual carriage way yet again, a project that was started 15 years ago. We proposed a new road to go under the Thames 10 years ago that has already cost £800m, more than the longest road tunnel in the world, and we haven't event started it yet! Just think about that. The fact things get delayed and cost so much more is a problem with British society and governance. It is not a random thing that just happens some times and scuppers our plans. It will happen again with all these 'new' projects.

We are crap at building, and that doesn't look to be getting any better under the Tories, Labour or Lib Dem, this is cross-party. And all this decision with HS2 does is confirm it more to the world and to investors, and to the campaigners and Nimbys who help make us so crap. If the PM can scrap the biggest infrastructure project in decades in Britain, at a conference in Manchester, with the nation's press in attendance, please don't tell me to expect all of these smaller, disparate projects to go ahead too. It will be far too easy to cancel one here, another there, with nobody looking, and who is going to remember all this in a few years. If they managed to revitalise the entire northern transport system I would be delighted. But it's a bit like asking me if I would be happy if we suddenly built a million new homes a year. Sure I would. It ain't going to happen though.
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This Tory Government has been busy ensuring infrastructure projects happen. The London Elizabeth line has been completed. I'm sure there are other major schemes happening in London right now. I mean, that's all that matters...right?
 
Confused - privitisation was meant to bring investment yet our railway infrastructure is an utter shambles.
 
Matesrates said:
So what do we think? HS2 to Manchester cancelled, but £36 billion to be spent on rail, bus and road Improvements across the north and midlands.
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Most of which is smoke and mirrors. All promises and no delivery, or monies already allocated.

Every PM since Blair has stood up and said they'll dual the A1 in its entirety. Still waiting despite funding allegedly there.
 
Cuthbert said:
Confused - privitisation was meant to bring investment yet our railway infrastructure is an utter shambles.
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It was mean to bring shareholders dividends. They always get that despite performance. See also water.

Watch this space for all the CPO land bought on the routes of the cancelled HS2 elements. It will be bought at a reduced rate by supporters of the Tories then sold back again at a vastly inflated rate should Labour restart the project.

It's already started with Johnson's Dad making a few million by selling his house to HS2 although it was off the route.

Mark my words.

Corrupt to the core and now getting everything they can while they can.
 
I read the escalating costs were part due to additional tunnelling through the southern Tory heartlands to keep them happy? Not sure if this is accurate, I'm sure someone will know.
The vast swathes of land bought in the northern section are now up for grabs, I can see tory donors and friends buying this cut price, effectively subsidised by you and me. Great isn't it!
 
Wizaard said:
It was mean to bring shareholders dividends. They always get that despite performance. See also water.

Watch this space for all the CPO land bought on the routes of the cancelled HS2 elements. It will be bought at a reduced rate by supporters of the Tories then sold back again at a vastly inflated rate should Labour restart the project.

It's already started with Johnson's Dad making a few million by selling his house to HS2 although it was off the route.

Mark my words.

Corrupt to the core and now getting everything they can while they can.
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Spot on. Follow the money to see the real reason behind their decision.
 
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