Latest audit of downsides and upsides of brexit

Someone (a European) was just asking me what benefits there were and I really was struggling to think of any. Now, reading this list, I see why I was struggling!
 
Don't understand why the pro remain politicians didn't put together a better campaign, there were so many things they had to go with.
I can only think the electorate were swept away, with nationalism, xenophobia and a severe case of blaming the wrong people for deprivation and lack of opportunity in many of our towns.
At least if it got really shit here we could have had our pick of 27 countries to move to as easily as moving to Yorkshire, haven't even got that now!!
 
gjr69 said:
Don't understand why the pro remain politicians didn't put together a better campaign, there were so many things they had to go with.
I can only think the electorate were swept away, with nationalism, xenophobia and a severe case of blaming the wrong people for deprivation and lack of opportunity in many of our towns.
At least if it got really shit here we could have had our pick of 27 countries to move to as easily as moving to Yorkshire, haven't even got that now!!
Click to expand...
They didn't put together a better campaign as they were lazy and assumed they'd win.

They also didn't decorate buses with out and out lies to be fair.

It's telling the Johnson's ascent to the top job started with those lies.
 
gjr69 said:
Don't understand why the pro remain politicians didn't put together a better campaign, there were so many things they had to go with.
I can only think the electorate were swept away, with nationalism, xenophobia and a severe case of blaming the wrong people for deprivation and lack of opportunity in many of our towns.
At least if it got really shit here we could have had our pick of 27 countries to move to as easily as moving to Yorkshire, haven't even got that now!!
Click to expand...
They didn't make the emotional argument to stay in. Churchill and Thatcher would have voted remain, they should have used this sort of thing to make it seem like the patriotic thing to stay in the EU.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
They didn't put together a better campaign as they were lazy and assumed they'd win.

They also didn't decorate buses with out and out lies to be fair.

It's telling the Johnson's ascent to the top job started with those lies.
Click to expand...
Johnson is consistent if nothing else, his whole personal life and career is based on lies, if only people knew this 5 years ago🤦
Definitely very complacent with their campaign, much the same as Clegg and the referendum on electoral reform, went on and on about it, got a referendum on it and then made no effort to convince the nation it was the right thing!!
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
They didn't put together a better campaign as they were lazy and assumed they'd win.

They also didn't decorate buses with out and out lies to be fair.

It's telling the Johnson's ascent to the top job started with those lies.
Click to expand...
Never a truer word said the remain campaign was pathetic and downright pig ignorant added on to a leader of the main opposition who to this day no one has a fuckin Scooby which way we he voted.
 
If the Labour Party had bothered to get on board with Brexit instead of hiding in the shadows you may well have had a Labour government and we wouldn’t be getting all angry about Boris and the bullshit. As someone said on here before, we get what we deserve, on all political fronts.
 
Big shame. Leave campaign pushed 2 or 3 big lies eg " Take back control " ( look what that means now) , 350 million pounds a week for the NHS , Turkey joining Europe, " the corrupt EU " v easy to manipulate people who didn't understand what it meant. Plus Russia and US extreme right pushing fake news etc on social media.
 
It is a historically identified 'thing' (it could do with a proper study), that following major economic shocks, citizens tend towards a greater need for security from their leaders. This has manifested itself in large parts of western populations, in a tendancy towards xenophobia of various degrees. It is my belief that this has led Britain, in the last 12/13 years to seek solace inwardly, succoured by myths of self-reliance and the danger of rule by outsiders. I think this period is on the verge of changing. The election of Joe Biden as POTUS was a touchstone. However, in Europe there is a danger of the far-right entrenching the xenophobia.
I hope not but for me - beyond the UK - I honestly cannot say which way the die will be cast at present.
 
Always tangerine said:
yorkshirebylines.co.uk

The Davis Downside Dossier

Regularly UPDATED with a record of the upsides and downsides of Brexit
yorkshirebylines.co.uk yorkshirebylines.co.uk

Upsides 18 Downsides 414.
Click to expand...
Have skimmed through but seems very biased and minimal issues many of them, some things that were issues and needing sorting.

To not mention sovereignty, to be in control of our own destiny as a country for eg shows they aren't interested in showing all the upsides.

There have been lots of good news stories that people have tried to spin as despite brexit.

Anything good that happens people claim would have happened anyway.

Basically thats a lot of crap.

I notice it doesn't show us how shit the eu were with their vaccine programme for eg and how they have shown their true colours to us as a country since leaving.

Even staunch remainers were looking and didn't like it.

Glad were not part of a project we never voted to be in. We voted for a trading block not a political union.

As time went by it became clear we weren't a good fit for the project and it was only a matter of time until we clash again , not wanting to pull in the same direction as the rest seeking ever closer union and an eu superstate.

Being part of a block can have some benefits but also a hindrance when the needs of 1 country is not in the interest of another.

At least outside we can forge our own partnerships that solely benefit the UK, meaning we can be more dynamic and better suited to our strengths.
 
Steel tariffs imposed by the US by Trump removed from the EU last month but maintained on the UK.
I wonder how Brexiteers can spin that news.
 
As I stated many times since before the referendum, you only need to look at our politicians to know "taking back control" was a ** terrible idea.

Particularly if you live in a region utterly neglected by our government.
 
JJpool said:
Have skimmed through but seems very biased and minimal issues many of them, some things that were issues and needing sorting.

To not mention sovereignty, to be in control of our own destiny as a country for eg shows they aren't interested in showing all the upsides.

There have been lots of good news stories that people have tried to spin as despite brexit.

Anything good that happens people claim would have happened anyway.

Basically thats a lot of crap.

I notice it doesn't show us how shit the eu were with their vaccine programme for eg and how they have shown their true colours to us as a country since leaving.

Even staunch remainers were looking and didn't like it.

Glad were not part of a project we never voted to be in. We voted for a trading block not a political union.

As time went by it became clear we weren't a good fit for the project and it was only a matter of time until we clash again , not wanting to pull in the same direction as the rest seeking ever closer union and an eu superstate.

Being part of a block can have some benefits but also a hindrance when the needs of 1 country is not in the interest of another.

At least outside we can forge our own partnerships that solely benefit the UK, meaning we can be more dynamic and better suited to our strengths.
Click to expand...
When you say the EU were shit with their vaccine programme are you aware they rapidly caught up and many have subsequently overtaken us. We could have gone our own way with the vaccine as members of the EU anyway. If this is considered a bonus of brexit that's bang average, it's like going out to buy a Bentley and coming back with a Vauxhall Astra.
 
JJpool said:
Have skimmed through but seems very biased and minimal issues many of them, some things that were issues and needing sorting.

To not mention sovereignty, to be in control of our own destiny as a country for eg shows they aren't interested in showing all the upsides.

There have been lots of good news stories that people have tried to spin as despite brexit.

Anything good that happens people claim would have happened anyway.

Basically thats a lot of crap.

I notice it doesn't show us how shit the eu were with their vaccine programme for eg and how they have shown their true colours to us as a country since leaving.

Even staunch remainers were looking and didn't like it.

Glad were not part of a project we never voted to be in. We voted for a trading block not a political union.

As time went by it became clear we weren't a good fit for the project and it was only a matter of time until we clash again , not wanting to pull in the same direction as the rest seeking ever closer union and an eu superstate.

Being part of a block can have some benefits but also a hindrance when the needs of 1 country is not in the interest of another.

At least outside we can forge our own partnerships that solely benefit the UK, meaning we can be more dynamic and better suited to our strengths.
Click to expand...
After a slow start EU countries have generally done very well with their vaccine programmes. They're aiming to show facts rather than vague theories about " sovereignty ".
 
Shandypants said:
When you say the EU were shit with their vaccine programme are you aware they rapidly caught up and many have subsequently overtaken us. We could have gone our own way with the vaccine as members of the EU anyway. If this is considered a bonus of brexit that's bang average, it's like going out to buy a Bentley and coming back with a Vauxhall Astra.
Click to expand...
They were, the infighting and behaviour was appalling.

Its about getting vaccines into arms as early as possible, something we were way ahead at.

What then slowed us down was the dependency on Pfizer for the younger group, given AZ issues.
 
Always tangerine said:
After a slow start EU countries have generally done very well with their vaccine programmes. They're aiming to show facts rather than vague theories about " sovereignty ".
Click to expand...
Hardly a 'vague theory' about being in control as a nation about the laws that govern us.

Just to mention about lies someone brought up earlier too, some of the remain lies were some of the worst.

World War 3, instant recession, camps in Kent, stock market collapse.
 
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JJpool said:
Hardly a 'vague theory' about being in control as a nation about the laws that govern us.

Just to mention about lies someone brought up earlier too, some of the remain lies were some of the worst.

World War 3, instant recession, camps in Kent, stock market collapse.
Click to expand...
" World War 3" ! Lorry parks in Kent may still be to come .Certainly having Europe wide bodies since the early 50s has contributed towards peace in Europe. We had plenty of influence on EU legislation while we were in the EU. Perhaps you could name one or 2 pieces of legislation coming from the EU that you found objectionable ? Sovereignty to allow Johnson and his cronies to rule our country. In reality we have little control over the laws and governance that the current government wants to impose on us. Sovereignty is more nuanced than you make out.
 
JJpool said:
They were, the infighting and behaviour was appalling.

Its about getting vaccines into arms as early as possible, something we were way ahead at.

What then slowed us down was the dependency on Pfizer for the younger group, given AZ issues.
Click to expand...
" We're " for a short period , in the past.
 
Always tangerine said:
" World War 3" ! Lorry parks in Kent may still be to come .Certainly having Europe wide bodies since the early 50s has contributed towards peace in Europe. We had plenty of influence on EU legislation while we were in the EU. Perhaps you could name one or 2 pieces of legislation coming from the EU that you found objectionable ? Sovereignty to allow Johnson and his cronies to rule our country. In reality we have little control over the laws and governance that the current government wants to impose on us. Sovereignty is more nuanced than you make out.
Click to expand...
To be honest off the top of my head years after the event no I can't.

However the eu was all about slowly slowly, bit by bit of boring legislation slowly and unbelievably boringly eroding our sovereignty over time.

But as a whole we went from the common market to an inward protectionist polital superpower block with the consent of the people, when the people were asked it was rejected.

End of story and yet still people remoan years later 🙄
 
JJpool said:
Have skimmed through but seems very biased and minimal issues many of them, some things that were issues and needing sorting.

To not mention sovereignty, to be in control of our own destiny as a country for eg shows they aren't interested in showing all the upsides.

There have been lots of good news stories that people have tried to spin as despite brexit.

Anything good that happens people claim would have happened anyway.

Basically thats a lot of crap.

I notice it doesn't show us how shit the eu were with their vaccine programme for eg and how they have shown their true colours to us as a country since leaving.

Even staunch remainers were looking and didn't like it.

Glad were not part of a project we never voted to be in. We voted for a trading block not a political union.

As time went by it became clear we weren't a good fit for the project and it was only a matter of time until we clash again , not wanting to pull in the same direction as the rest seeking ever closer union and an eu superstate.

Being part of a block can have some benefits but also a hindrance when the needs of 1 country is not in the interest of another.

At least outside we can forge our own partnerships that solely benefit the UK, meaning we can be more dynamic and better suited to our strengths.
Click to expand...
I live in Fylde, my vote counts for nothing. Who is the we you refer to when it comes to having a say in UK legislation because I haven't had any input at even the most basic level.
If we didn't have such an archaic electoral system the bullshit about taking back control might have been more than an empty slogan as it is we now have a thousand year reich government full of the worst tory shithouses and no input from the EU to stop them doing their worst!
Which EU legislation did you find so bad that you wanted to commit England to an eternity of Conservative rule?
 
gjr69 said:
I live in Fylde, my vote counts for nothing. Who is the we you refer to when it comes to having a say in UK legislation because I haven't had any input at even the most basic level.
If we didn't have such an archaic electoral system the bullshit about taking back control might have been more than an empty slogan as it is we now have a thousand year reich government full of the worst tory shithouses and no input from the EU to stop them doing their worst!
Which EU legislation did you find so bad that you wanted to commit England to an eternity of Conservative rule?
Click to expand...
Obviously we as a country not individuals 🙄

Well nothing wrong with making the laws ourselves, although the political system is shote and needs changing somehow.

Se previous post.
 
JJpool said:
Obviously we as a country not individuals 🙄

Well nothing wrong with making the laws ourselves, although the political system is shote and needs changing somehow.

Se previous post.
Click to expand...
I think it's the 'we as a country' that the Brexiters took advantage of to win their referendum, in reality Farage, Johnson, Rees Mogg and the rest don't include me and you when they talk about we.
 
gjr69 said:
I think it's the 'we as a country' that the Brexiters took advantage of to win their referendum, in reality Farage, Johnson, Rees Mogg and the rest don't include me and you when they talk about we.
Click to expand...
But thats a personal UK think to get a better government and system.
 
JJpool said:
But thats a personal UK think to get a better government and system.
Click to expand...
It won't happen, which is one of the main reasons I was against Brexit, too many of our politicians are 2nd rate or self serving and the current system enables that.
Being in the EU gave a lot of us an easy escape route if we wanted a change and they also 'imposed' a lot of worthwhile legislation on the UK. At least I as a worker thought it was worthwhile, people like Rees Mogg would obviously disagree!
 
gjr69 said:
It won't happen, which is one of the main reasons I was against Brexit, too many of our politicians are 2nd rate or self serving and the current system enables that.
Being in the EU gave a lot of us an easy escape route if we wanted a change and they also 'imposed' a lot of worthwhile legislation on the UK. At least I as a worker thought it was worthwhile, people like Rees Mogg would obviously disagree!
Click to expand...
It might if we all voted outside the big 2 parties.
 

EXCLUSIVE: France didn’t take back 98% of its illegal migrants sent to UK in 2020

Brexit has made no difference – Official facts show France wasn’t co-operating for years
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Thanks to Brexit, UK will not pay over £18bn towards EU’s huge new 2022 budget

Yesterday Brussels reached agreement on its total 2022 budget of £146bn
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Big Brexit freedom bonus – First UK Freeport in Teesside goes operational today

“Having left the EU we now have the freedom to do things differently,” says Lord Frost
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Brexit blame for HGV driver shortage exposed as false

HGV drivers group finds 5,300 EU residents in UK have re-entered Britain’s HGV workforce
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Brexit Britain will outperform EU’s top economies this year and next, says IMF

Apocalyptic ‘Project Fear’ forecasts are once again upended by UK’s post-Brexit growth
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org
 
JJpool said:

EXCLUSIVE: France didn’t take back 98% of its illegal migrants sent to UK in 2020

Brexit has made no difference – Official facts show France wasn’t co-operating for years
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Thanks to Brexit, UK will not pay over £18bn towards EU’s huge new 2022 budget

Yesterday Brussels reached agreement on its total 2022 budget of £146bn
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Big Brexit freedom bonus – First UK Freeport in Teesside goes operational today

“Having left the EU we now have the freedom to do things differently,” says Lord Frost
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Brexit blame for HGV driver shortage exposed as false

HGV drivers group finds 5,300 EU residents in UK have re-entered Britain’s HGV workforce
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Brexit Britain will outperform EU’s top economies this year and next, says IMF

Apocalyptic ‘Project Fear’ forecasts are once again upended by UK’s post-Brexit growth
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org
Click to expand...
Looks like facts for EU is a propaganda/false news machine. Freeports were always possible in the EU . We had some in the past while in the EU. They have little or no impact on the economy bin any case.

Here is some main stream news .

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-12-10/analysis-shows-brexit-caused-12-billion-of-lost-trade-in-october
 
JJpool said:

EXCLUSIVE: France didn’t take back 98% of its illegal migrants sent to UK in 2020

Brexit has made no difference – Official facts show France wasn’t co-operating for years
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Thanks to Brexit, UK will not pay over £18bn towards EU’s huge new 2022 budget

Yesterday Brussels reached agreement on its total 2022 budget of £146bn
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Big Brexit freedom bonus – First UK Freeport in Teesside goes operational today

“Having left the EU we now have the freedom to do things differently,” says Lord Frost
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Brexit blame for HGV driver shortage exposed as false

HGV drivers group finds 5,300 EU residents in UK have re-entered Britain’s HGV workforce
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org

Brexit Britain will outperform EU’s top economies this year and next, says IMF

Apocalyptic ‘Project Fear’ forecasts are once again upended by UK’s post-Brexit growth
facts4eu.org facts4eu.org
Click to expand...
Ladies and gentlemen I present you with fake news
 
L’étranger said:
Unfortunately no one will take you seriously if you provide links from such a partial source.
Click to expand...
They are a research site.

The figures for the brexit britain will outperform the eu nations is from the imf.

You can see where the data was drawn from although some slight difference as I have the October link rather than November.

www.imf.org

World Economic Outlook, October 2021: Recovery During A Pandemic

This report shows that the global economic recovery continues amid a resurging pandemic that poses unique policy challenges and requires strong multilateral effort.
www.imf.org

WEO-Chart-OCT-21.ashx


So absolutely nothing wrong with the information, just people don't like what it's saying and don't believe a site setup to analyse facts about some brexit issues.

Just because its pro brexit doesn't make the facts wrong as just proven and @Shandypants looks a bit silly now for calling it fake news. They put their sources of info on the article.

The imf forecasts fake news now is it?

Oh dear. 🤦‍♂️
 
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2020 is reality the other years are speculation. In 2020 we fared worse than anyone else bar Spain, that's factual.
 
This is a fair summary, although you'll clutch at speculative figures

Not my Brexit

<a rel="me" href="https://mastodon.online/@ChrisGrey">Mastodon</a>
chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
 
Shandypants said:
At minus 9.8% there is only Spain faring worse than us on that list, what a wonderful example you bring 🤣
Click to expand...
You questioned the data as fake news, I proved its real now you want to use it? You were wrong, no need to be sour🤦‍♂️

Not sure if you remember but there was a pandemic that year and the lockdowns, in the UK we had bad restrictions and some of the highest levels of virus due to many things including utter incompetence.

The government has damaged the country in some cases unnecessarily. I'd imagine a lot of countries managed to keep things moving a lot better than we did.

We also had the brexit issues to sort out which was always going to happen.

You cant blame 2020 on brexit its pretty much all covid crap.
 
Shandypants said:
This is a fair summary, although you'll clutch at speculative figures

Not my Brexit

<a rel="me" href="https://mastodon.online/@ChrisGrey">Mastodon</a>
chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
Click to expand...
Don't have time to read all that, a quick skim and ill take your word.

I've never said there won't be issues, winners and losers etc.

However people want ot blame brexit for everything, the petrol crisis for eg, nothing to do with anything else and magically fixed itself with no interventions. Seems shady, make to get rid of the old petrol stock or someone said it was the rha wanting to keep improving cheap eu labour so the started a scare to put pressure eon th government.

Anyway the fact is its very hard to measure the economic impact because of covid.

However when you look at the forecasts Britain is forecast to do just fine.

Investment has been robust and confidence in the country high. Not what the remain side predicted at all.
 
JJpool said:
They are a research site.

The figures for the brexit britain will outperform the eu nations is from the imf.

You can see where the data was drawn from although some slight difference as I have the October link rather than November.

www.imf.org

World Economic Outlook, October 2021: Recovery During A Pandemic

This report shows that the global economic recovery continues amid a resurging pandemic that poses unique policy challenges and requires strong multilateral effort.
www.imf.org

WEO-Chart-OCT-21.ashx


So absolutely nothing wrong with the information, just people don't like what it's saying and don't believe a site setup to analyse facts about some brexit issues.

Just because its pro brexit doesn't make the facts wrong as just proven and @Shandypants looks a bit silly now for calling it fake news. They put their sources of info on the article.

The imf forecasts fake news now is it?

Oh dear. 🤦‍♂️
Click to expand...
Hope you enjoyed your stats based Saturday night 😏.
The IMF statistics show that the UK had the worst performing economy in 2020 of those listed, other than Spain, and as such, is starting from a much lower base than most of the countries listed, so of course would be expected to have a bigger bounce back in 2021 and 2022.
You can pluck all the spurious stats you like to try and support your argument; the top and bottom of it is that even the Government appointed Office of Budget Responsibilty forecasts we will be worse off under Brexit than would otherwise have been the case.
 
L’étranger said:
Hope you enjoyed your stats based Saturday night 😏.
The IMF statistics show that the UK had the worst performing economy in 2020 of those listed, other than Spain, and as such, is starting from a much lower base than most of the countries listed, so of course would be expected to have a bigger bounce back in 2021 and 2022.
You can pluck all the spurious stats you like to try and support your argument; the top and bottom of it is that even the Government appointed Office of Budget Responsibilty forecasts we will be worse off under Brexit than would otherwise have been the case.
Click to expand...
Each country had different measures, different levels of virus and covid and different damage.

Any economic impact has been nothing like the doom predicted, because of covid we haven't had a period of stability to work though it with nothing else to worry about.

Its funny how people like to shit on brexit and say ahh this might be half a % lower than if we wernt in the EU, forgetting the other costs not measured by gdp like unlimited immigration on society, wage compression, taking rules that don't suit us, democracy etc.

Also a lot of the same people welcome the recent restrictions costing upto 18 billion that are needless.

Make your mind up is the economy important or not.
 
Scaramanga said:
If the Labour Party had bothered to get on board with Brexit instead of hiding in the shadows you may well have had a Labour government and we wouldn’t be getting all angry about Boris and the bullshit. As someone said on here before, we get what we deserve, on all political fronts.
Click to expand...
The vast majority of the Labour Party voted remain. The then leader said on many occasions remain and reform and agreed to a confirmatory vote.
People need more information about exactly what they were voting for. Sensible positioning in my view.
 
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I felt at the time of the campaign that remain spent too much time pronouncing intellectual debate, talking about freedom of movement and pointing out to us middle class how good our experience is and will be in a modern Europe.

Remain appealed completely to all of us who travel, who work multi nationally, who enjoy a fine wine, who have considered whether to choose France or Switzerland for the skiing in February.

They didn’t bother trying to talk to those they considered racist, bigots in shitholes like Fleetwood as intellectual debate would have been challenging.

Leave did exactly that. They lied, they got deep and dirty and went to those shitholes and told them that Europe was why they were poor. Their jobs all went to Poland. Their fathers jobs in fishing went because of the EU too. The only people voting remain are the middle class white collar types who worry about the origin of the wine on the menu whilst your eating at the chippy.

I was stunned by the result but it screamed out arrogance by the remain campaign who were either too lazy or too aloof to get dirty and win it.

Hence we are where we are
 
I think Labour failed to campaign properly on Brexit.
They seemed to make little effort to galvanise their own voters, and resisted letting their campaigners sharing a platform with Tories, so no united front was presented.
The Labour leaders of the campaign complained of being restrained and thwarted by Jeremy Corbyn, who kept a very low profile through it all.
Corbyn has a lot to answer for IMO.
 
JJpool said:
Have skimmed through but seems very biased and minimal issues many of them, some things that were issues and needing sorting.

To not mention sovereignty, to be in control of our own destiny as a country for eg shows they aren't interested in showing all the upsides.

There have been lots of good news stories that people have tried to spin as despite brexit.

Anything good that happens people claim would have happened anyway.

Basically thats a lot of crap.

I notice it doesn't show us how shit the eu were with their vaccine programme for eg and how they have shown their true colours to us as a country since leaving.

Even staunch remainers were looking and didn't like it.

Glad were not part of a project we never voted to be in. We voted for a trading block not a political union.

As time went by it became clear we weren't a good fit for the project and it was only a matter of time until we clash again , not wanting to pull in the same direction as the rest seeking ever closer union and an eu superstate.

Being part of a block can have some benefits but also a hindrance when the needs of 1 country is not in the interest of another.

At least outside we can forge our own partnerships that solely benefit the UK, meaning we can be more dynamic and better suited to our strengths.
Click to expand...
What sovereignty, what control of borders? Think you'll find we have the control of a sieve.
 
Wizaard said:
What sovereignty, what control of borders? Think you'll find we have the control of a sieve.
Click to expand...
We have control as a country within our powers alone, that's sovereignty. Just because we have some clowns unwilling to use thenpowets is a different matter and why you can vote than out if necessary.
 
Chunkylad said:
I felt at the time of the campaign that remain spent too much time pronouncing intellectual debate, talking about freedom of movement and pointing out to us middle class how good our experience is and will be in a modern Europe.

Remain appealed completely to all of us who travel, who work multi nationally, who enjoy a fine wine, who have considered whether to choose France or Switzerland for the skiing in February.

They didn’t bother trying to talk to those they considered racist, bigots in shitholes like Fleetwood as intellectual debate would have been challenging.

Leave did exactly that. They lied, they got deep and dirty and went to those shitholes and told them that Europe was why they were poor. Their jobs all went to Poland. Their fathers jobs in fishing went because of the EU too. The only people voting remain are the middle class white collar types who worry about the origin of the wine on the menu whilst your eating at the chippy.

I was stunned by the result but it screamed out arrogance by the remain campaign who were either too lazy or too aloof to get dirty and win it.

Hence we are where we are
Click to expand...
I didn't listen to either campaign, both were very poor. I did my own research, isn't that part of the issue that we have voters incapable of doing this?
 
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