Measured progess?

Insider

Insider

Well-known member
Hmmm?
There was a certain numbness about the game last night starting with the annoncement of the team.
We had one chance to give OUR YOUTH a chance and we blew it.
The new Manager bottled it just like the old one did.
Using Rob Apter as the example because he's the closest to being first team ready he's done nothing wrong in pre-season after being played as far out of position as possible other than being asked to play in goal.
I'm not saying he's a better player than Patino, Fiorini, Corbeanau or Williams BUT he's one of ours.
We know everything we need to know about CJ, he's desperately out of form, low on confidence and I can see why Appy might have wanted to help him through that by giving him a chance against League 2 opposition and whilst hindsight is a wonderful thing and even if he had stormed it last night that wouldn't prove he's Championship quality (and he isn't) so we learned nothing.
Last night we could have learned a lot more about Rob Apter playing him in his best position with the rest of the first team squad around him. Quite frankly he's been let down.
If we want to develop our own Youth, and the standard is improving, we have to attract them on the basis that they are going to progress more quickly into first team football at "lowly Blackpool" than they are at "mighty Citeh".
The sad fact is sign for Blackpool at 16 and get a loan move to Bamber Bridge at 18, sign for Citeh and you get a loan move to Blackpool.
#5for25 isn't looking any more likely than Shayne Lavery hitting the target from 3 yds out.
 
I completely understand that view but our youth players are not Championship level, they are getting non league loans. Isnt Appleton's current task to sort out our first team to be able to compete in the Championship?
 
voyeur said:
I didnt miss the point. Appleton is a new coach here building a new team. Last night was an important opportunity to progress that.
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Well if it helps highlight who isn't good enough and need shipping out, I suppose that is a positive. Apter should have been involved last night however, the boost that gives all our academy players would have been worth it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, ultimately we went out to L2 opposition playing a strong team, no matter how Appleton dresses that up, it's a poor result.
 
voyeur said:
I didnt miss the point. Appleton is a new coach here building a new team. Last night was an important opportunity to progress that.
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If last night was progression, I would hate to know what regression looks like. Strikes me all managers are the same, just like Critchley all Appleton did post match was say he couldn’t fault the attitude, blah , blah. When I was working if I cocked something up I got a bollocking not plaudits. It’s about time some of these prima donnas were told how bad they really are.
 
Under normal circumstances, I would agree with the O/P, however these are far from normal circumstances.... new manager, new players, new system, players returning from injury, fringe players needing game time etc...

Now is really not the time to add the extra pressure of our youth player development into that mix...

We've struggled to get players in for pre-season and so last night's game has to be used for development of our first team / squad as a priority.
 
Insider said:
Hmmm?
There was a certain numbness about the game last night starting with the annoncement of the team.
We had one chance to give OUR YOUTH a chance and we blew it.
The new Manager bottled it just like the old one did.
Using Rob Apter as the example because he's the closest to being first team ready he's done nothing wrong in pre-season after being played as far out of position as possible other than being asked to play in goal.
I'm not saying he's a better player than Patino, Fiorini, Corbeanau or Williams BUT he's one of ours.
We know everything we need to know about CJ, he's desperately out of form, low on confidence and I can see why Appy might have wanted to help him through that by giving him a chance against League 2 opposition and whilst hindsight is a wonderful thing and even if he had stormed it last night that wouldn't prove he's Championship quality (and he isn't) so we learned nothing.
Last night we could have learned a lot more about Rob Apter playing him in his best position with the rest of the first team squad around him. Quite frankly he's been let down.
If we want to develop our own Youth, and the standard is improving, we have to attract them on the basis that they are going to progress more quickly into first team football at "lowly Blackpool" than they are at "mighty Citeh".
The sad fact is sign for Blackpool at 16 and get a loan move to Bamber Bridge at 18, sign for Citeh and you get a loan move to Blackpool.
#5for25 isn't looking any more likely than Shayne Lavery hitting the target from 3 yds out.
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How do you know Rob Apter is close to being in the first team

Seriously question?
 
NewburyOne said:
Well if it helps highlight who isn't good enough and need shipping out, I suppose that is a positive. Apter should have been involved last night however, the boost that gives all our academy players would have been worth it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, ultimately we went out to L2 opposition playing a strong team, no matter how Appleton dresses that up, it's a poor result.
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He didn't set out to lose, we lost on penalties, and he learned about players who are in the first team picture. I agree about the need to give hope to our acadamy players but right at this moment the first team needs sorting out. Neither appleton not Critch has felt any youth players were at the required level for the first team. It's likely to be true unfortunately.
 
Goforgoal said:
If last night was progression, I would hate to know what regression looks like. Strikes me all managers are the same, just like Critchley all Appleton did post match was say he couldn’t fault the attitude, blah , blah. When I was working if I cocked something up I got a bollocking not plaudits. It’s about time some of these prima donnas were told how bad they really are.
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That's like a caricature of a post. "When I were a lad I used to get up half an hour before I went to bed and lick t'road clean wit tongue! Tell the kids today that and they won't believe yer!"
 
Goforgoal said:
How do you know he isn’t? Seriously question.
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I don't but if 2 professional football managers along with several back room staff who watch these youth players day in day out don't think they are ready just how the fcuk can someone on an obsure football forum know better?

Serious question.........
 
Goforgoal said:
How do you know he isn’t? Seriously question.
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Is Rob Apter a serious contender for a full back spot? Seems very unlikely when all are fit. It's not clear to me what Appleton plans for the lad but if he's not a full back and isn't being considered in his proper position, he's unlikely to figure in the first team plans.
 
l was very impressed with Rob Apter in the pre season friendlies and he never let us down even being played well out of position. I’m with Insy on this one inasmuch that he should have played pre season in his natural position and he could have been knocking on the 1st team door. I don’t buy into this nonsense that he might not be ready, he’s ready now but the chance may have gone by for this season for one of our very own talented yoof players!
 
Insider said:
Hmmm?
There was a certain numbness about the game last night starting with the annoncement of the team.
We had one chance to give OUR YOUTH a chance and we blew it.
The new Manager bottled it just like the old one did.
Using Rob Apter as the example because he's the closest to being first team ready he's done nothing wrong in pre-season after being played as far out of position as possible other than being asked to play in goal.
I'm not saying he's a better player than Patino, Fiorini, Corbeanau or Williams BUT he's one of ours.
We know everything we need to know about CJ, he's desperately out of form, low on confidence and I can see why Appy might have wanted to help him through that by giving him a chance against League 2 opposition and whilst hindsight is a wonderful thing and even if he had stormed it last night that wouldn't prove he's Championship quality (and he isn't) so we learned nothing.
Last night we could have learned a lot more about Rob Apter playing him in his best position with the rest of the first team squad around him. Quite frankly he's been let down.
If we want to develop our own Youth, and the standard is improving, we have to attract them on the basis that they are going to progress more quickly into first team football at "lowly Blackpool" than they are at "mighty Citeh".
The sad fact is sign for Blackpool at 16 and get a loan move to Bamber Bridge at 18, sign for Citeh and you get a loan move to Blackpool.
#5for25 isn't looking any more likely than Shayne Lavery hitting the target from 3 yds out.
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Good post (last line a bit mean though 🙂).
 
again im going to say thats only the third competetive game this season, and i didnt see it, and listening to the Chismeisters commentary gives you nothing as to whether we were playing well or not,however ive not seen anything that suggests we played well.

the one thing i take that has been a consistent from the pre-season games and the competetive games is that MA is trying to plug round holes with square pegs. in both regards to the players used and the systems. I understand injuries and the like.

Apter at left back, Jerry as a left winger, a front and middle three that are incredibly static positionally. Virtue as a right back in one game. I would have thought that if consistency and a medium to long term plan is in place then the head coach should be coming in to work within that framework, what seems to be happenning is that there is a clear out of what in my opinion (and results would suggest) was a mid ranking championship side and im not convinced that the players being bought in are significantly better than what we already had, or enough to make a significant difference to performance. Blackpool doesnt have the finances to land the 10 or 20 million pound playing superstars who may or may not make a difference or be able to pay the established successful coaches (their often unjustified salaries), and im not sure quite how successful is defined in coaching beyond silverware. The number of so-called big names going through Man U, chelsea, Everton et al seems to make little difference. A good coach is probably making a cumulative 5% difference, so over a period of time you see huge improvement.

when MA came in i thought that the management team may have found someone who was prepared to fit in to the clubs needs and help it improve, with the understanding that there would be a period of bedding in and adjustment. What we seem to be looking at is wholesale change, from the players all the way through the coaching team, to the Youth development set up.

We have to expect that many "alternative" coaches will be like Critchley, using the club as a stepping stone but if the club is being set up with a longterm plan bringing in coaches who want to do full on change at every level seems counter intuitive to a long term plan, so either mistakes have been recognised in the previous two years development or the plan is fundamentally driven by the head coach, which it never seemed to be under Critchley, although management had built it around his capabilities.

for the first time in a while I'm seeing issues. I said just last week that we probably had a top ten squad but it would require some tinkering to get it working together, and at this point, although i will reiterate we have had only three competitive games, i am starting to see problems. Under Critchley even at teh start of both seasons where results didnt go our way, i could see signs that things would be ok if not more than Ok. For the first time in two years im looking at the next four or five fixtures and thinking we might even struggle to be competitive.

oops turned into a bit of a rant - ive definately stated looking at the glass as at least a third empty as opposed to two thirds full, and we seem to be spilling the liquid thats in there.
 
Philbfctrois said:
I don't but if 2 professional football managers along with several back room staff who watch these youth players day in day out don't think they are ready just how the fcuk can someone on an obsure football forum know better?

Serious question.........
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I can’t speak for anyone else but I don’t know better, nor did I suggest I do. I was merely turning the question back on you. Referring to the first part of your reply about 2 professional managers, one of those managers you have spent the last couple of years deriding him and his abilities as a manager so how you can now quote him as being an expert is beyond me. Just a thought.
 
To not even have one of our own young players on the bench last night was disappointing. If they're not going to get a chance of minutes in the first round of the Carabao Cup against Barrow, then they're not going to get it all.

Makes you wonder if having a youth system at the club is worth it nowadays tbh
 
Insider said:
Hmmm?
There was a certain numbness about the game last night starting with the annoncement of the team.
We had one chance to give OUR YOUTH a chance and we blew it.
The new Manager bottled it just like the old one did.
Using Rob Apter as the example because he's the closest to being first team ready he's done nothing wrong in pre-season after being played as far out of position as possible other than being asked to play in goal.
I'm not saying he's a better player than Patino, Fiorini, Corbeanau or Williams BUT he's one of ours.
We know everything we need to know about CJ, he's desperately out of form, low on confidence and I can see why Appy might have wanted to help him through that by giving him a chance against League 2 opposition and whilst hindsight is a wonderful thing and even if he had stormed it last night that wouldn't prove he's Championship quality (and he isn't) so we learned nothing.
Last night we could have learned a lot more about Rob Apter playing him in his best position with the rest of the first team squad around him. Quite frankly he's been let down.
If we want to develop our own Youth, and the standard is improving, we have to attract them on the basis that they are going to progress more quickly into first team football at "lowly Blackpool" than they are at "mighty Citeh".
The sad fact is sign for Blackpool at 16 and get a loan move to Bamber Bridge at 18, sign for Citeh and you get a loan move to Blackpool.
#5for25 isn't looking any more likely than Shayne Lavery hitting the target from 3 yds out.
Click to expand...
No because Appleton clearly wanted to get through.

Had we played more youth and lost people would have been angry we've not tried to get a cup run and more revenue.

He played a plenty strong enough team, but sadly they let him down in the final 3rd.

I would have loved to see more youth, but I wanted to get through.

Didn't happen in the end but the decision to try and progress with a stronger side is the right one.
 
Philbfctrois said:
I don't but if 2 professional football managers along with several back room staff who watch these youth players day in day out don't think they are ready just how the fcuk can someone on an obsure football forum know better?

Serious question.........
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I don't know but neither do you. This is a messageboard for opinions. I don't pretend that it's a fact unlike some of the things that people post.
 
Alter should have been picked and given 20 minutes. If you can't fit one youth player into your squad in a mickey-mouse cup, then what' s the point of having promising youth players. Re the question of is Apter is good enough to play against Barrow, there was only one way to find out!
 
Apter and Moore - are they ready or close to the first team or squad. I don't know but what I know is that both f them were given opportunities in pre-season games and that Appleton hasn't involved them in the two league games and the Cup game last night. But he's been no different to our previous two managers since Sadlet came in. Give the youngsters a chance in pre-season but then forget all about them once the season is up and running. It's a recurring theme. Rightly or wrongly, who knows?.
 
Goforgoal said:
If last night was progression, I would hate to know what regression looks like. Strikes me all managers are the same, just like Critchley all Appleton did post match was say he couldn’t fault the attitude, blah , blah. When I was working if I cocked something up I got a bollocking not plaudits. It’s about time some of these prima donnas were told how bad they really are.
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I believe we battered them ,but could not score. So I think calling this regression is a bit over the top. The manager can't help the poor finishing . So if they had managed to score 3 or 4 your comments would have looked rather silly.
 
20togo said:
Apter and Moore - are they ready or close to the first team or squad. I don't know but what I know is that both f them were given opportunities in pre-season games and that Appleton hasn't involved them in the two league games and the Cup game last night. But he's been no different to our previous two managers since Sadlet came in. Give the youngsters a chance in pre-season but then forget all about them once the season is up and running. It's a recurring theme. Rightly or wrongly, who knows?.
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It would appear they are have been training with the first team and Apter probably got as many minutes as anyone else in pre-season but played out of position for most of those minutes. So if Appy's judged a left-sided attacking mid-fielder from his performances as a RB I don't know what conclusion to draw.
Jack Moore has only just graduated and is at least a season behind Rob. I'd also add that, IMO, it's far more physically challenging to play at RB in the Championship than LW so whilst he looks to have potential it really is too soon for him.
 
WIZARD OF TANGERINE said:
I believe we battered them ,but could not score. So I think calling this regression is a bit over the top. The manager can't help the poor finishing . So if they had managed to score 3 or 4 your comments would have looked rather silly.
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If my auntie had wheels etc. we have had trouble scoring for the last 2 seasons and neither manager seem overly concerned. This season will be much harder for us than last, we must take our chances or will be in trouble. Last night we had 60+% possession and did nothing with it first half, 16 shots against a team which narrowly avoided relegation from league 2. Doesn’t bode well does it?
 
Insider said:
It would appear they are have been training with the first team and Apter probably got as many minutes as anyone else in pre-season but played out of position for most of those minutes. So if Appy's judged a left-sided attacking mid-fielder from his performances as a RB I don't know what conclusion to draw.
Jack Moore has only just graduated and is at least a season behind Rob. I'd also add that, IMO, it's far more physically challenging to play at RB in the Championship than LW so whilst he looks to have potential it really is too soon for him.
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He's just used them to cover positions to get some pre-season games played so the senior lads who weren't injured could get some sort of prep in. Which as he said wasn't ideal as the club were chasing the money given the opponents they lined up.

There was a more pressing need to get Gabriel and Husband back and involved last night so they used the two spare places on the subs bench that might have gone to your lads if the injury comebacks still weren't ready enough.
 
poolfc said:
He's just used them to cover positions to get some pre-season games played so the senior lads who weren't injured could get some sort of prep in. Which as he said wasn't ideal as the club were chasing the money given the opponents they lined up.

There was a more pressing need to get Gabriel and Husband back and involved last night so they used the two spare places on the subs bench that might have gone to your lads if the injury comebacks still weren't ready enough.
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I agree priority should have been given to Hubby and Gabriel last night and it was great to see them back. Could be a tough decision as to who becomes 1st choice LB. Obviously Gabriel needs to start as soon as he's ready because currently there is no choice. Jack Moore isn't anything like ready for Championship football. I didn't really have much of a problem with the team selection at all except I would have played Apter ahead of CJ.
 
We should in all seriousness get rid of the youth academy as it's utterly pointless. Complete waste of salaries as none of these kids are ever considered good enough. Put that money into signing players.

It's not surprising either when the top clubs in the country vacuum up all the kids with any talent then spew them out the other side like unwanted chicken feed.
 
Are we gonna come up against any sides in the Championship who play the way Barrow played last night? Our problem was not being able to break down and finish against a team who were playing for the draw.

Disappointing to lose, and maybe the fact that this was a different kind of match than we'll have in the league was a reason to play Apter and Moore. But I don't know how many more times our players will be tasked with breaking down an opponent who isn't really trying to score against us.
 
Insider said:
It would appear they are have been training with the first team and Apter probably got as many minutes as anyone else in pre-season but played out of position for most of those minutes. So if Appy's judged a left-sided attacking mid-fielder from his performances as a RB I don't know what conclusion to draw.
Jack Moore has only just graduated and is at least a season behind Rob. I'd also add that, IMO, it's far more physically challenging to play at RB in the Championship than LW so whilst he looks to have potential it really is too soon for him.
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You’re not young Rob’ grandad 👴 by any chance are you Insy?

Maybe you should go and give Applegoose a piece of Grandpop’s mind 👍👍
 
Insider said:
I agree priority should have been given to Hubby and Gabriel last night and it was great to see them back. Could be a tough decision as to who becomes 1st choice LB. Obviously Gabriel needs to start as soon as he's ready because currently there is no choice. Jack Moore isn't anything like ready for Championship football. I didn't really have much of a problem with the team selection at all except I would have played Apter ahead of CJ.
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I don't know what you hope to get out of it or what your utopia moment would be with wanting to see all these youth team players in the first team but for now I'd probably turn your attention to trying to find out exactly what Stephen Dobbie will be doing if he's full time here now.

An U21 development squad or reserve team playing regularly with a mix of our youth, others we can grab off everyone elses released lists who look roughly like what you'd expect a footballer to be. And some first team thrown into the mix on injury comebacks to help out. Or a couple of designated senior players who just play in the reserves and do a bit of coaching. And have a load of watching EFL and NL scouts in to see if there's anyone worth taking on loan for the year to help build them up. That's probably the best way I can think of to try and make something work and give a head coach more options to pick from.

There's a void between 18-21 where the social endeavour for local youth kids stops and the proper stuff starts.
 
Insider said:
You missed the point, last night we played against League 2 opposition in the Cup.
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I don't disagree with your drift in any way. My point is that I think Appleton was casting his eye over those who he might think about throwing straight into the Championship squad this Saturday. Their performance suggests to me that he has to move on and, in that regard, ignoring Apter would be shortsighted.
 
20togo said:
Apter and Moore - are they ready or close to the first team or squad. I don't know but what I know is that both f them were given opportunities in pre-season games and that Appleton hasn't involved them in the two league games and the Cup game last night. But he's been no different to our previous two managers since Sadlet came in. Give the youngsters a chance in pre-season but then forget all about them once the season is up and running. It's a recurring theme. Rightly or wrongly, who knows?.
Click to expand...

The difference with pre-season is the unlimited subs, and I think there are players Appleton wants to look at in competitive games such as Lubala/Hamilton, and players who need minutes on the pitch such as Gabriel/Husband, so the scope for giving the youth team 10 minutes or so just isn't there.
 
voyeur said:
I didnt miss the point. Appleton is a new coach here building a new team. Last night was an important opportunity to progress that.
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Apter needs development way more than CJ. He made his league debut 18 months+ ago and has had exactly zero opportunities, despite doing well on that debut and doing well on each of his loans and being part of a successful youth set up.

The loan players should be able to hit the ground running otherwise why, exactly have we loaned them? Patino looked very raw last night. It looks very much, to me, as if we're paying money to develop a raw player and taking a risk with that in a manner that ultimately will benefit Arsenal whilst Rob Apter and others look on.

When do we risk these kids? (the ones who took Chelsea's kids to the wire, with all their resources and advantages in terms of the way football is structured?) - when they're 24? When they've been on loan to another Championship club?

Apter should, at very least, have been on the bench. I said it before kick off, I'm saying it now. Rob Apter playing left side of attack and we wouldn't have been so passive and frankly arrogant in the way we swanned about doing nothing, but an occasional meaningless showboat dribble. Why on earth was Bowler on the bench when he obviously was never going to come on (we needed a goal, he didn't come on)
 
Lost Seasider said:
The difference with pre-season is the unlimited subs, and I think there are players Appleton wants to look at in competitive games such as Lubala/Hamilton, and players who need minutes on the pitch such as Gabriel/Husband, so the scope for giving the youth team 10 minutes or so just isn't there.
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I was just putting it out there that this manager is no different to the previous two when it comes to youth players and pre-season games. One other point. If he's not gonna consider them for the first team then there's a case to be made for those squad members that are getting more game time and match fitness into their legs in pre-season.
 
Lost Seasider said:
The difference with pre-season is the unlimited subs, and I think there are players Appleton wants to look at in competitive games such as Lubala/Hamilton, and players who need minutes on the pitch such as Gabriel/Husband, so the scope for giving the youth team 10 minutes or so just isn't there.
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If Lubala and Hamilton is the answer, I don't even want to think of what the question is.
 
Insider said:
I agree priority should have been given to Hubby and Gabriel last night and it was great to see them back. Could be a tough decision as to who becomes 1st choice LB. Obviously Gabriel needs to start as soon as he's ready because currently there is no choice. Jack Moore isn't anything like ready for Championship football. I didn't really have much of a problem with the team selection at all except I would have played Apter ahead of CJ.
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Agree about Apter, it was a chance to try him out in a competitive game against decent opposition. If it wasn't working he could have put either CJ or Lubala on at half-time or after 60mins. Good news was Gabriel and Hubby back involved again, Gabriel in particular will give some options on Saturday. I think Appleton will have to be more flexible in his approach rather than a rigid 4-3-3. I would suggest 4-2-3-1 especially with Beesley and Madine out. Dougall and Connolly as the two with Fiorini, Patino and Bowler as the three with either Lavery or Yates as the lone striker. Having 2 defensive midfielders will allow us to press further up the pitch against Swansea otherwise we won't see much of the ball.
 
poolfc said:
I don't know what you hope to get out of it or what your utopia moment would be with wanting to see all these youth team players in the first team but for now I'd probably turn your attention to trying to find out exactly what Stephen Dobbie will be doing if he's full time here now.

An U21 development squad or reserve team playing regularly with a mix of our youth, others we can grab off everyone elses released lists who look roughly like what you'd expect a footballer to be. And some first team thrown into the mix on injury comebacks to help out. Or a couple of designated senior players who just play in the reserves and do a bit of coaching. And have a load of watching EFL and NL scouts in to see if there's anyone worth taking on loan for the year to help build them up. That's probably the best way I can think of to try and make something work and give a head coach more options to pick from.

There's a void between 18-21 where the social endeavour for local youth kids stops and the proper stuff starts.
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It's a good question and perhaps you should ask Simon Sadler rather than me because he effectively started me off on the "#5for25".
That's his ambition for BFC and whilst I might not quite describe as my "Utopia" moment are there any fans on here that wouldn't like to see a BFC squad full of Academy graduates.
I'm just in the fortunate position where I have the opportunity to watch our young talent develop. Bifster asked me above if I'm Rob Apter's Grandad. I certainly feel protective about the kids but I'm not as delusional as some people think. I do though have an advantage in that when I offer an opinion about these players it's actually based on watching them play regularly.
Moving on to Steven Dobbie that is another interesting question and I'll try and develop my response over the course of the season.
Personally I'd have liked to have seen Dobbie, initially at least, take over from John Murphy as u18 coach. That post was advised some time back and I don't know if anyone has been appointed yet. I don't even know who's looking after the u18s whilst they are in Portugal. Again more on that in due course.
So Dobbie's got the u21s/ Development Squad who are going to play in the Central League at Bamber Bridge (we haven't managed to publish any fixtures yet even though the Nobbers have).
He currently has a squad by my reckonning of Ewan Bange, Brad Holmes, Luke Mariette, Tayt Trusty, Will Squires, Joe Strawn, Jack Moore, Harvey Hughes, Donovan Lescott and Rob Apter. (There’s actually a tab for the squad on the official site but of course it's 12 months out of date) Not sure if Rob is seen as a first team squad member, so nearly a team but no goalkeeper.
A few questions I can't answer.
Is this squad going to train separately from the first team? Sounds like there'll be lots of 5-a-side practice games if they do with someone taking turn in nets.
Where are they going to train?
Are we going to continue send players out on loan? (Youth loans will probably continue to train at BFC and play reserve football). if so the practice matches will be even smaller sides.
 
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