Miz-Trust..... everyone else is to blame

[foggy]

So we all agree the markets/financial institutions run the world economy, play the game and you’ll be ok, try anything we don’t like and your ucked - exactly my point

Yes if you want to borrow money off people you should try to act like a safe, secure borrower. It's not really that surprising or any great conspiracy.

Let's break it down. The UK has a budget. Lizz Truss decided she wanted to cut taxes to give money back to the richest people in the UK. This means the UK has less money coming in. However she said she wasn't going to spend any less money, so now she has a financial black hole. To fill this hole she said she would borrow money. If you want to borrow money, as Government, you sell gilts, which are essentially IOUs. Lend us money, we will pay you interest on it. This borrowing is largely from the private sector, some within the UK, some sold to institutions abroad. If you are a clueless idiot and don't bother to run your numbers past the Office for Budget Responsibility, and if you spring the announcement of 40 billion quid in financial deficit halfway through the financial year, and you do this out of nowhere and when nobody knew it was coming, then the people you are asking to give you all those billions are probably going to ask for more interest because now they have less confidence in you. Imagine being in a pub and seeing some local drunk putting twenty after twenty in the fruit machine, and while he is doing it he is asking if he can borrow money off you. You might do a litle risk assesment in your head and consider whether that is a good use of your money.

These institutions only 'run the world economy' when a government like ours asks them to lend us billions of pounds. If you behave responsibly, plan ahead and show long term stability, have a well functioning economy, the cost of borrowing will be very low and it can be a great opportunity. Borrow a little now to invest and get future growth out of it. But it has to be done the right way.

 

[no9]

Yes if you want to borrow money off people you should try to act like a safe, secure borrower. It's not really that surprising or any great conspiracy.

Let's break it down. The UK has a budget. Lizz Truss decided she wanted to cut taxes to give money back to the richest people in the UK. This means the UK has less money coming in. However she said she wasn't going to spend any less money, so now she has a financial black hole. To fill this hole she said she would borrow money. If you want to borrow money, as Government, you sell gilts, which are essentially IOUs. Lend us money, we will pay you interest on it. This borrowing is largely from the private sector, some within the UK, some sold to institutions abroad. If you are a clueless idiot and don't bother to run your numbers past the Office for Budget Responsibility, and if you spring the announcement of 40 billion quid in financial deficit halfway through the financial year, and you do this out of nowhere and when nobody knew it was coming, then the people you are asking to give you all those billions are probably going to ask for more interest because now they have less confidence in you. Imagine being in a pub and seeing some local drunk putting twenty after twenty in the fruit machine, and while he is doing it he is asking if he can borrow money off you. You might do a litle risk assesment in your head and consider whether that is a good use of your money.

These institutions only 'run the world economy' when a government like ours asks them to lend us billions of pounds. If you behave responsibly, plan ahead and show long term stability, have a well functioning economy, the cost of borrowing will be very low and it can be a great opportunity. Borrow a little now to invest and get future growth out of it. But it has to be done the right way.

Truth is the UK is just about bankrupt, two trillion is it (£50 billion doesn’t seem that much in comparison).

How much are we paying in interest.

Who exactly are earning millions from our loans.

UK plc needs to make clearing the National debt the number 1 priority.

 

[foggy]

Truth is the UK is just about bankrupt, two trillion is it (£50 billion doesn’t seem that much in comparison).

How much are we paying in interest.

Who exactly are earning millions from our loans.

UK plc needs to make clearing the National debt the number 1 priority.

No, we aren't just about bankrupt. I'm not sure you know exactly what you mean by saying this.

Most of the UK debt is owned by pension fund investments. The money spent on interest goes back into people's pensions. Again, this is perfectly healthy when you dont have a kamikaze pilot at the wheel like Truss.

 

[gjr]

There's a long way to go yet until the next GE. I wouldn't be at all surprised at a hung parliament, with Labour the biggest party. Which is what you get when there's such a dearth of talent in both government and opposition

There's a long way to go to the General Election!
It seems like half a life time ago that the clown Johnson was elected, on the back of that we get Truss and Sunak. I'm not attached to any party but this self serving Tory shit show feels like it goes on forever!!!

 

[no9]

No, we aren't just about bankrupt. I'm not sure you know exactly what you mean by saying this.

Most of the UK debt is owned by pension fund investments. The money spent on interest goes back into people's pensions. Again, this is perfectly healthy when you dont have a kamikaze pilot at the wheel like Truss.

So about £100 billion a year interest payments

 

[foggy]

So about £100 billion a year interest payments

83bn last year. About 5% of our spending

 

[no9]

83bn last year. About 5% of our spending

Will be more this year.

What a business.

The FCA (a corrupt govt body) are shutting down pawn brokers but the UK government are happy to pay £100 billion a year in interest payments alone.

Truss tries to shake everything up and reduce our debt but you lefty boys are happy for the government to carry on paying the real financial gangsters.

You couldn’t make it up.

 

[foggy]

Will be more this year.

What a business.

The FCA (a corrupt govt body) are shutting down pawn brokers but the UK government are happy to pay £100 billion a year in interest payments alone.

Truss tries to shake everything up and reduce our debt but you lefty boys are happy for the government to carry on paying the real financial gangsters.

You couldn’t make it up.

Well you could make it up because you just did. Liz Truss was not reducing our debt. Her unfunded tax cuts increased our debt. I'm not sure how many more times this needs explaining?

Here is the current Chancellor of the Exchequer and noted Conservative, Jeremy Hunt. "I think it's clear you can't fund tax cuts through increased borrowing. That is a clear thing that we changed course on," Hunt said.

Is Jeremy Hunt left wing?

 

[Tangerinemoss]

So we all agree the markets/financial institutions run the world economy, play the game and you’ll be ok, try anything we don’t like and your ucked - exactly my point

I'd come at it from a different viewpoint, a bit like with the U turn over electric cars. Businesses need stability, when they can't see it it affects their investments. No different to you and I making decisions about investing our hard earned .

 

[no9]

Well you could make it up because you just did. Liz Truss was not reducing our debt. Her unfunded tax cuts increased our debt. I'm not sure how many more times this needs explaining?

Here is the current Chancellor of the Exchequer and noted Conservative, Jeremy Hunt. "I think it's clear you can't fund tax cuts through increased borrowing. That is a clear thing that we changed course on," Hunt said.

Is Jeremy Hunt left wing?

Hunts the biggest xxxx in politics. He’s the man that wanted the UK to follow the Chinese covid lockdown policy so I’ve no faith in him whatsoever.

How do you know for sure that her tax cuts wouldn’t have actually increased business investment and ultimately generated more income. Nobody knows for sure. All bullshit projections.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

That might be the best thing if the price of the Lib Dem’s forming another coalition would be to force through Proportional Representation resulting in an almost permanent natural anti-Tory majority. If only Labour has the imagination and guts to do it.

That would forever cast the small minority of RW Conservatives into limbo, never again given the power to wreck our country as they have done for the past 13 years.

After the last coalition involving the Lib Dems I wouldn't trust them an inch.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Truth is the UK is just about bankrupt, two trillion is it (£50 billion doesn’t seem that much in comparison).

How much are we paying in interest.

Who exactly are earning millions from our loans.

UK plc needs to make clearing the National debt the number 1 priority.

It's not UK plc. The country is not a business and the Government has responsibility for the welfare, safety and security of its citizens. None of those obligations can be adequately serviced by clearing the National Debt.

 

[no9]

It's not UK plc. The country is not a business and the Government has responsibility for the welfare, safety and security of its citizens. None of those obligations can be adequately serviced by clearing the National Debt.

I agree that is the Government’s job.

However trying to pay off a debt that will save a £100 billion a year (interest only payments) might enable them to provide better security, education, policing etc.

 

[foggy]

Hunts the biggest xxxx in politics. He’s the man that wanted the UK to follow the Chinese covid lockdown policy so I’ve no faith in him whatsoever.

How do you know for sure that her tax cuts wouldn’t have actually increased business investment and ultimately generated more income. Nobody knows for sure. All bullshit projections.

Well it wasn't just Jeremy Hunt was it? It was her party that got rid of her. You know, the Conservative party. Are they part of a leftist plot? She had a 9% approval rating. Are 91% of the country leftists too?

Why would cutting the top rate of personal income tax increase business investment? You know this isn't corporation tax we are talking about, right? But I see you've gone for a pretty measly 'nobody knows for sure' defense now but earlier you were adamant she was cutting debt and it was the pesky leftists who stopped her.

The fact that the tax cuts were unfunded was not a 'projection'. We know how much money we bring in. We know how much money we spend. If we cut 43 billion worth of tax we now have a 43 billion black hole. In the first year. Not projected down the line with growth. That's a hole in the immediate short term that is covered by borrowing. She increased our national debt.

 

[foggy]

I agree that is the Government’s job.

However trying to pay off a debt that will save a £100 billion a year (interest only payments) might enable them to provide better security, education, policing etc.

Maybe they should raise taxes on wealthy people rather than cutting them? Since you clearly want them to provide better security, education and policing - things which cost money - but also want us to pay off our debt up front. That means we need to start making a lot more money.

 

[no9]

Maybe they should raise taxes on wealthy people rather than cutting them? Since you clearly want them to provide better security, education and policing - things which cost money - but also want us to pay off our debt up front. That means we need to start making a lot more money.

I think you’ll find the wealthy already pay a lot in income tax.

Cut corporation tax or incentivise business investment to create more wealth.

Or carry on as we are and tax tax tax.

 

[foggy]

I think you’ll find the wealthy already pay a lot in income tax.

Cut corporation tax or incentivise business investment to create more wealth.

Or carry on as we are and tax tax tax.

At the moment we have a horrible squeeze on the middle class thanks to the sudden loss of child benefit allowance and student loan repayments when you get to a certain salary. What I am talking about is a wealth tax, which has vast public support. The debt went up substantially due to COVID and the Ukraine war, this should be paid for by a wealth tax on the richest in society, not borrowing.

By the way it was Rishi Sunak who decided to put up corporation tax from 19% to 25%. Is he left wing?

 

[no9]

Putting up corporation tax to 25% is insane.

And yes I think Rishi is left wing.

Wealth tax, yes but Let’s all contribute to pay off the National debt, even the unemployed could help by missing a weeks benefit payments.

Or could we do what Norway did and set up a sovereign wealth fund and start fracking for gas.

Something different needs to be done.

 

[Wizaard]

There's a long way to go yet until the next GE. I wouldn't be at all surprised at a hung parliament, with Labour the biggest party. Which is what you get when there's such a dearth of talent in both government and opposition

And a foreign owned media in thrall to the Tories pushing that agenda.

 

[Wizaard]

Hunts the biggest xxxx in politics. He’s the man that wanted the UK to follow the Chinese covid lockdown policy so I’ve no faith in him whatsoever.

How do you know for sure that her tax cuts wouldn’t have actually increased business investment and ultimately generated more income. Nobody knows for sure. All bullshit projections.

Your second paragraph is a bullshit projection in itself. The markets reacted by saying it was insanity, so no, it wouldn't increase business investment and generated income.

The richest don't invest. They keep that money in savings. That's why they're rich. Give that same amount of money to the lower quartile and they will spend it in the local economy, generating income for others.

 

[foggy]

And yes I think Rishi is left wing.

Lol. Be serious please.


The UK is not well suited for natural gas. We do not rank particularly high in the world at how much we have and in the case of much of it would cost us too much to extract than it would to sell it. Sorry to break it to you, but we are not in fact sat on a gold mine that Greenpeace are forcing us to squander. Businesses know it is economically unviable and the Government recognised it would be cheaper to import. They didn't do that for fun, but because at the time it made economic sense. Perhaps we could have made better use of our North sea oil glut in the 80s but blame Thatcher for that. It's too late now, we can make a bit of money in the short term but peak oil production will likely be reached this decade and then decline as the world demands more renewable energy sources.

 

[RUSTY_2_STANDS]

And a foreign owned media in thrall to the Tories pushing that agenda.

The media can say what they want. The dearth of talent on both the government and opposition benches is sad to see
Added to that a lack of morale fibre and conviction, and we have the worst set of politicians in my living memory.
And that's my opinion, not influenced one bit by the media. An opinion I've held for some considerable time.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

Increases in wealth taxes would be a step in the right direction but at the moment no politician has the cajones to go there. It's absurd that a person on the median salary around 30k pays a higher percentage of their salary in tax than a millionaire with a lot of cash in the bank / invested who doesn't actually do anything.

 

[Wizaard]

The media can say what they want. The dearth of talent on both the government and opposition benches is sad to see
Added to that a lack of morale fibre and conviction, and we have the worst set of politicians in my living memory.
And that's my opinion, not influenced one bit by the media. An opinion I've held for some considerable time.

You might not be influenced by the media, but millions are.

 

[RUSTY_2_STANDS]

You might not be influenced by the media, but millions are.

Anyone with half a brain cell can see how poor the current bunch of politicians are. You would hope anyway.

 

[no9]

Your second paragraph is a bullshit projection in itself. The markets reacted by saying it was insanity, so no, it wouldn't increase business investment and generated income.

The richest don't invest. They keep that money in savings. That's why they're rich. Give that same amount of money to the lower quartile and they will spend it in the local economy, generating income for others.

I’m not talking about the individual rich person, although I would have thought they spend a few bob, I’m talking about big business investment.

 

[no9]

Lol. Be serious please.


The UK is not well suited for natural gas. We do not rank particularly high in the world at how much we have and in the case of much of it would cost us too much to extract than it would to sell it. Sorry to break it to you, but we are not in fact sat on a gold mine that Greenpeace are forcing us to squander. Businesses know it is economically unviable and the Government recognised it would be cheaper to import. They didn't do that for fun, but because at the time it made economic sense. Perhaps we could have made better use of our North sea oil glut in the 80s but blame Thatcher for that. It's too late now, we can make a bit of money in the short term but peak oil production will likely be reached this decade and then decline as the world demands more renewable energy sources.

How do you know we wouldn’t make money from extracting gas from fracking.

Ahh and now it’s Thatchers fault.

I think we can at least agree that we have different opinions.

You believe the bullshit you want to and I’ll do the same.

Just because one has an opinion doesn’t mean one is right

 

[Brazil]

Increases in wealth taxes would be a step in the right direction but at the moment no politician has the cajones to go there. It's absurd that a poor person on say 30k pays a higher percentage of their salary in tax than a millionaire with a lot of cash in the bank / invested who doesn't actually do anything.

Poor? On 30k? ??? I must be destitute, then, after working 40+ years.

 

[foggy]

How do you know we wouldn’t make money from extracting gas from fracking.

Ahh and now it’s Thatchers fault.

I think we can at least agree that we have different opinions.

You believe the bullshit you want to and I’ll do the same.

Just because one has an opinion doesn’t mean one is right

Because companies previously tried it and it didn't work. The founder of Cuadrilla, the fracking company which was operating in Lancashire, said it doesn't work. The geology of the UK landscape is just not condusive to fracking, even if you ignored the eathquakes it caused which were massively larger in scale than what was expected. Even a pretty optimistic survey that promotes us starting fracking again estimates we could only extract enough gas to produce 17-22% of our annual consumption. That is not enough to start exporting on a massive scale in order to create a 'sovereign wealth fund'. Norway has 98% of their energy coming from their own renewable sources, that's why they can export all their oil. Maybe if we had been building nuclear and more wind farms and tidal we could be in a similar position, alas.

Yes it is Thatcher's fault. the UK and Norway discovered North Sea oil at the same time in the 1980s. It was at that time Norway decided to invest it and create their wealth fund. The UK decided to spend it. This was a decision made under the Prime Minister at the time, and throughout the entire decade, Margaret Thatcher. Who else's fault would it be? You are asking why we didn't do something at the time, well who was in charge of the decision making? Thatcher. You were moaning about it mate, not me. You reap what you sow.

The difference is you are saying things like "Rishi Sunak is left wing" whereas I am saying "Margaret Thatcher was the Prime Minister in the 80s when North Sea oil was discovered". One if obviously a ridiculous opinion the other is just a literal fact.

 

[no9]

Because companies previously tried it and it didn't work. The founder of Cuadrilla, the fracking company which was operating in Lancashire, said it doesn't work. The geology of the UK landscape is just not condusive to fracking, even if you ignored the eathquakes it caused which were massively larger in scale than what was expected. Even a pretty optimistic survey that promotes us starting fracking again estimates we could only extract enough gas to produce 17-22% of our annual consumption. That is not enough to start exporting on a massive scale in order to create a 'sovereign wealth fund'. Norway has 98% of their energy coming from their own renewable sources, that's why they can export all their oil. Maybe if we had been building nuclear and more wind farms and tidal we could be in a similar position, alas.

Yes it is Thatcher's fault. the UK and Norway discovered North Sea oil at the same time in the 1980s. It was at that time Norway decided to invest it and create their wealth fund. The UK decided to spend it. This was a decision made under the Prime Minister at the time, and throughout the entire decade, Margaret Thatcher. Who else's fault would it be? You are asking why we didn't do something at the time, well who was in charge of the decision making? Thatcher. You were moaning about it mate, not me. You reap what you sow.

The difference is you are saying things like "Rishi Sunak is left wing" whereas I am saying "Margaret Thatcher was the Prime Minister in the 80s when North Sea oil was discovered". One if obviously a ridiculous opinion the other is just a literal fact.

I have to tip my hat to your reply, superb

However you can’t deny Rishi is a weak Conservative.

Re Thatcher, I spoke recently to an ex Yorkshire miner who left his mining job and joined the police force. He became head of the armed response unit in his area. His team were called in to look after Thatcher at the Party conference in Blackpool. I asked him what he thought about her especially after the pit closures. His answer, she was great and about the pits it was just a matter of time.

Thatcher is our last true great leader whether you like it or not.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

Poor? On 30k? ??? I must be destitute, then, after working 40+ years.

Sorry not poor, that was badly written, but relatively so compared to millionaires. The point is why are people on these salaries paying proportionally more tax (i.e around 25%) when a millionaire pays 20% on their gains in wealth. Nobody from any party will go near increasing wealth taxes at the moment, but it should be an option imo. The current situation means the disparities in wealth will grow every year.

 

[foggy]

I have to tip my hat to your reply, superb

However you can’t deny Rishi is a weak Conservative.

Re Thatcher, I spoke recently to an ex Yorkshire miner who left his mining job and joined the police force. He became head of the armed response unit in his area. His team were called in to look after Thatcher at the Party conference in Blackpool. I asked him what he thought about her especially after the pit closures. His answer, she was great and about the pits it was just a matter of time.

Thatcher is our last true great leader whether you like it or not.

I don't wish to deny Rish is weak and he is a Conservative. But he is not left-wing. And neither are the majority of the Tory MPs who worked together to oust Liz Truss

It's cool you spoke to 1 miner who liked Thatcher, but that is clearly not representative of the views most miners or northern working class people had of her.

I have to be honest I dont think Thatcher was a great leader and I'm not swayed by a person on a football forum delaring it is true whether I like it or not. But that's certainly an opinion you can have. What's not an opinion you can have is whether or not she was in charge of selling off our north sea oil, because that is obejective fact, and you were just moaning about it earlier until you realised it was Thatcher.

 

[Wizaard]

I have to tip my hat to your reply, superb

However you can’t deny Rishi is a weak Conservative.

Re Thatcher, I spoke recently to an ex Yorkshire miner who left his mining job and joined the police force. He became head of the armed response unit in his area. His team were called in to look after Thatcher at the Party conference in Blackpool. I asked him what he thought about her especially after the pit closures. His answer, she was great and about the pits it was just a matter of time.

Thatcher is our last true great leader whether you like it or not.

It was that great about the pits that we scrapped literally tens of thousands of jobs and put nothing in place to cover that vacuum.

If you go to Barnsley on Saturday feel free to tell them how great Thatcher was.

 

[no9]

It was that great about the pits that we scrapped literally tens of thousands of jobs and put nothing in place to cover that vacuum.

If you go to Barnsley on Saturday feel free to tell them how great Thatcher was.

Chap also said the unions were bullies and militant and that’s why he left.

Only a matter of time before a government would take them on.

Not my words, his, but as I said yesterday, you believe the bullshit you want to.

 

[Wizaard]

Chap also said the unions were bullies and militant and that’s why he left.

Only a matter of time before a government would take them on.

Not my words, his, but as I said yesterday, you believe the bullshit you want to.

As I say, feel free to say all this in any Barnsley pub. I'm sure they'll look warmly on your idolisation of Thatcher.

 

[no9]

It’s Ryder cup weekend so peace to all men including you Wizard and the Barnsley miners

 

[Cuthbert]

Oh mate, everyone hated Liz Truss. She had a -70% approval rating and the Tories at one point were polling at 17% under her. Its not just Labour members who realise she was ** awful.

70% of the UK population; that's higher than anty previous prime minister - you are having a laugh. 70% of the lunatics in the Tory party maybe? She was always a dumb, loose cannon

 

[foggy]

70% of the UK population; that's higher than anty previous prime minister - you are having a laugh. 70% of the lunatics in the Tory party maybe? She was always a dumb, loose cannon

It's -70. As in negative 70. The previous sentence I wrote was literally 'everyone hated Liz Truss'

 

[Cuthbert]

It's -70. As in negative 70. The previous sentence I wrote was literally 'everyone hated Liz Truss'

Sorry mate; never good at reading - blame my parents

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I think you’ll find the wealthy already pay a lot in income tax.

Cut corporation tax or incentivise business investment to create more wealth.

Or carry on as we are and tax tax tax.

Is that because business invests millions in British labour? Or maybe they just award themselves bigger salaries on the back of achieving fuck all.

 

[no9]

Without business, entrepreneurs, we are ucked.

And don’t give me the working class built this country, we didn’t. Genius’s and leaders did.

 

[Cuthbert]

Without business, entrepreneurs, we are ucked.

And don’t give me the working class built this country, we didn’t. Genius’s and leaders did.

Your point being?

 

[foggy]

Without business, entrepreneurs, we are ucked.

And don’t give me the working class built this country, we didn’t. Genius’s and leaders did.

No 'body' built this country.