TwelveAngryMen
Well-known member
Could they be liable in the tort of unlawful interference with contractual relations ?
Need to look at principles in more detail but the headline grounds could apply
Mr Bates versus the Post office.
- Thread starter JOHNMAJORTOM
- Start date
Need to look at principles in more detail but the headline grounds could apply
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
The problem there would be establishing a duty of care from Fujitsu to the SPM's, which since there was no direct relationship between them might be hard to do.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Doesn't that require a specific intent?
Lala
Well-known member
Running scared now the heat has been well and truly ramped up. Probably thinks if she does this everyone will forget about her and she can breeze along under the radar again. Hopefully not the case.
traffordtang
Well-known member
It beggars belief that right up to the TV programme coming out, all these facts, and more were fully known yet she, and the others were prepared to brazen it out until they saw the force of the public outrage at their actions and realised there was no hiding place, now suddenly they’re scurrying around like little rats trying to convince the public they’re doing right by the PMs, but anyway it wasn’t really their fault, while pointing the finger at someone else. I don’t think I’ve heard a single person accept any blame.
TwelveAngryMen
Well-known member
I’d need to look however if they knew that their system was plagued with bugs and hid that to protect their contract by giving false evidence to support convictions …….
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
They knew the SPMs would be relying on the software. And that if it was defective it could lead to artificial losses. Which in turn might leave the SPMs opne to allegations of theft and false accounting.
The bottle of ginger beer with the snail was bought by a friend and given to the plaintiff. There was no contract/direct relationship between the defendant and the plaintiff. Which was why she couldn’t sue in contract so had to base her claim in negligence.
If there’s a duty of care imposed on the manufacturers of ginger beer to ensure there isn’t a snail in the product that might be drunk by a third party, it should be simple to show there’s a duty of care on a software manufacturer to ensure there isn’t a catastrophic glitch in software that they know will be used by third parties. And that’s before you even start on the issue of remote access. How more direct could you find?
It's pretty commonplace that IT systems build are not perfect and there are known issues and defects. The programme referred to a Fujitsu team making manual adjustments.
It will be interesting to see how much of the defect list was known to the PO and whether they understood there was a team working around the system and could make manual adjustments.
I've worked for two IT outsourcers doing major systems development for clients. It would be way beyond normal practice to hold back information on defects and workarounds from a client. They would be shared and agreed to before any go-live, along with a plan to resolve or stick with the defects.
I'd be surprised if Fujitsu can't evidence PO sign off to the known system workarounds (Fujitsu would have expected funding for a team performing manual workarounds especially if a long term situation).
It will be interesting to see how much of the defect list was known to the PO and whether they understood there was a team working around the system and could make manual adjustments.
I've worked for two IT outsourcers doing major systems development for clients. It would be way beyond normal practice to hold back information on defects and workarounds from a client. They would be shared and agreed to before any go-live, along with a plan to resolve or stick with the defects.
I'd be surprised if Fujitsu can't evidence PO sign off to the known system workarounds (Fujitsu would have expected funding for a team performing manual workarounds especially if a long term situation).
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
If you’re thinking of lawful/unlawful means conspiracy between the PO and Fujitsu, then that’s an area of law that’s still being developed.
So possibly.
But IMO it’d be pleaded in the alternative and negligence would be the favourite I’d have thought? Not sure about time limits though.
TwelveAngryMen
Well-known member
Three years from date of knowledge HOWEVER there is a 15 year long stop that will goose some
Fujitsu had a team that were remotely and in real time altering the SPM accounts to try to cover up bugs in the system. In some cases they managed to do it and in some they didn't with the latter leaving deficiencies for the SPM. That, plus the deliberate cover up, including in court cases shows clear intent. Deception, perjury, perverting the course of justice and fraudulent protection of their commercial contract all seem potential offences. And collusion with some PO employees and executives against the SPMs.
look.its.luke
Well-known member
Depressing that it took a drama on ITV for this to be an issue. You get the politicians you deserve
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
There's been an Inquiry running for the last 3 years, plus police investigations as well, what more do you expect from them?
look.its.luke
Well-known member
For it to be a talking point amongst people before they turn it into a drama with Toby Jones.
Wizzerboy
Well-known member
Possibly the Tory mantra but it was a different political party in power when this scandal first started!! Why didn't they do something about it?
They're all the same Wizaard, unfortunately
I can remember this coming to light at least 12 years ago. It was in the tabloid and local newspapers and on the radio, but it didn't have the wide spread coverage the ITV drama has given it. It also took the drama series to fully explain and show just how deep the cover up went, the impact it had on the victim's lives and to have an emotional impact on the general population. It's a fact of life that we can read stories in the news about atrocities and it have little if any impact on our emotions (Taliban in Afghanistan, war etc), but if we were actually there or watching it live, then our feelings would be different.
hertfordseasider
Well-known member
That is so commonplace in large/medium companies and organisations, I have seen it many times, these people aim for the top, are ruthless but largely incompetent, it's amazing how many fuckwits get promoted rather than booted as it gets rid of a problem but causes a bigger one and a bigger one and a bigger one down the line.
Wizzerboy
Well-known member
The one thing that these people have highlighted is that how quickly communities are quick to judge when not knowing the full facts.
Death threats, verbal abuse, physical hounding of families just because it was seen on the news or read in a newspaper that a SPM was convicted of false accounting and/or theft.
Unfortunately, things like this happens on social media all too frequently today
Death threats, verbal abuse, physical hounding of families just because it was seen on the news or read in a newspaper that a SPM was convicted of false accounting and/or theft.
Unfortunately, things like this happens on social media all too frequently today
SeasideKurt
Well-known member
I genuinely don't know how someone hasn't done something bad to anyone at Fujitsu or the PO.
In this day and age I could find out easily who was involved with the Horizon system, project managers/IT Directors/CEOs. I'd have been causing chaos to their day to day lives if I found out someone was doing this to me.
I guess it's not something a normal postmaster during that time would have done. But watching the entire thing has made me extremely angry. There are hundreds of people with blood on their hands and have got away with it so far.
Wizzerboy
Well-known member
May not be 100% true.
ffs
Wizzerboy
Well-known member
So far, the net IS closing though
1966_and_all_that
Well-known member
It's 100% recognisable though.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
That's not down to politicians, though.
ElBurroSinNombre
Well-known member
Another massive injustice that we are seemingly blind to is the Windrush scandal. I hope ITV give this the same sort of treatment and show it on prime time TV. British citizens deported because they couldn't prove that they were British - some died in exile.
Archibald Knox
Well-known member
These bullies have known their conspiracy has been imploding since the High Court verdict in 2019 was lost. Why does one think Vennells resigned as CEO then?
If you read the blogs published by Nick Wallis, the reporter who uncovered this scandal, you can see the PO instituted illegal shredding of evidence documents as soon as they realised the Horizon system was corrupt.
I suspect the shredding was more widespread and went on for longer than many realised. A conspiracy will always try to cover its tracks. The courts may never find out what documents once existed. And there will be a lot of people with unbelievably poor memory.
I hope that a few are offered plea deals to provide the courts with unimpeachable evidence to nail the most serious perpetrators. Otherwise there is a good chance they will get away with it.
www.postofficetrial.com
If you read the blogs published by Nick Wallis, the reporter who uncovered this scandal, you can see the PO instituted illegal shredding of evidence documents as soon as they realised the Horizon system was corrupt.
I suspect the shredding was more widespread and went on for longer than many realised. A conspiracy will always try to cover its tracks. The courts may never find out what documents once existed. And there will be a lot of people with unbelievably poor memory.
I hope that a few are offered plea deals to provide the courts with unimpeachable evidence to nail the most serious perpetrators. Otherwise there is a good chance they will get away with it.
Post Office document-shredder named
Reporting the High Court class action against the UK Post Office
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look.its.luke
Well-known member
Which was my point. There's only widespread public outrage now they made a TV show about the scandal.
It's depressing that so many people are so disengaged with politics that we rely on ITV drama to inform opinion...and a reason why we get such awful politicians.
Archibald Knox
Well-known member
The Horizon faults were first suspected publicly in 2009 with the Computer Weekly article. It was not until a year or two later that Govt ministers were contacted with complaints - in particular Ed Davey of the Con-LibDem coalition. He did not know then that the PO execs were still in full-on liar mode when he questioned them.Possibly the Tory mantra but it was a different political party in power when this scandal first started!! Why didn't they do something about it?
They're all the same Wizaard, unfortunately
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Archibald Knox
Well-known member
TV drama has long been a useful source for public awareness of social ills and government carelessness. An early example is “Cathy Come Home” made by Ken Loach in 1966 about homelessness. It is still traumatic today.
“Mr Bates vs The Post Office” is following a (un)healthy tradition.
As for politicians and their ilk, anyone who aggressively seeks power should be denied it completely.
look.its.luke
Well-known member
From Popbitch (can't recommend enough)
ITV has a new miniseries on the slate for 2024: Mr Bates vs The Post Office...
A quick look at the cast list shows they’ve found someone to play Paula Vennells, the CEO of Post Office Ltd at the time, but there’s no-one playing Adam Crozier, who was CEO of Royal Mail Ltd.
Crozier played a significant role in the real-life scandal, but looks to have been snipped out of the dramatisation. Maybe it was just too tricky to write the scene where Crozier left Royal Mail to become CEO of… ITV.
ITV has a new miniseries on the slate for 2024: Mr Bates vs The Post Office...
A quick look at the cast list shows they’ve found someone to play Paula Vennells, the CEO of Post Office Ltd at the time, but there’s no-one playing Adam Crozier, who was CEO of Royal Mail Ltd.
Crozier played a significant role in the real-life scandal, but looks to have been snipped out of the dramatisation. Maybe it was just too tricky to write the scene where Crozier left Royal Mail to become CEO of… ITV.
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Archibald Knox
Well-known member
Royal Mail Ltd was the parent company of the Post Office until 2012 and was privatised in 2013 after their separation.
Adam Crozier left Royal Mail Ltd for ITV in early 2010. I suspect up until then he was preoccupied with the build-up to separation and privatisation and left day-to-day matters in the PO to its own execs. Such as the prosecution of “dodgy” Sub-PMs. Which was not an issue with a public profile until 2009-2010 and yet continued aggressively with prosecutions until 2015.
That’s not to say he knew nothing about the issue and, being Chair of the parent company from 2003 to 2010, might have paid more attention to his oversight role. However, it’s difficult to see him as equally as culpable as Vennells who was in charge of prosecutions AND the subsequent cover-up.
Crozier was responsible for large scale post office closures in the thousands, and massive layoffs of Royal Mail staff, which was all part of his aggressive organisational strategy and treatment of workers which, no doubt, the persecution of Sub-PMs grew out of.
Adam Crozier left Royal Mail Ltd for ITV in early 2010. I suspect up until then he was preoccupied with the build-up to separation and privatisation and left day-to-day matters in the PO to its own execs. Such as the prosecution of “dodgy” Sub-PMs. Which was not an issue with a public profile until 2009-2010 and yet continued aggressively with prosecutions until 2015.
That’s not to say he knew nothing about the issue and, being Chair of the parent company from 2003 to 2010, might have paid more attention to his oversight role. However, it’s difficult to see him as equally as culpable as Vennells who was in charge of prosecutions AND the subsequent cover-up.
Crozier was responsible for large scale post office closures in the thousands, and massive layoffs of Royal Mail staff, which was all part of his aggressive organisational strategy and treatment of workers which, no doubt, the persecution of Sub-PMs grew out of.
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look.its.luke
Well-known member
Fair enough, but it shows the problem inherent with people being informed through a drama versus investigative reporting and independent enquiries.
Let's say Crozier was involved. Would this have even been commissioned?
Let's say Crozier was involved. Would this have even been commissioned?
Archibald Knox
Well-known member
Crozier left ITV in June 2017. The writing for the script of this drama series started in mid-2020, and filming commenced in May 2023.
So Crozier had no involvement in its production and I doubt that he had any influence in its commissioning. But even had he still been with ITV I don’t think it would have been stopped after the court events of 2019.
A more relevant question might be… Why was this drama series made by ITV and not by the BBC or perhaps Channel 4? Is the BBC, being a government organisation like the Post Office, too close and not sufficiently independent?
What it shows is that investigative reporting can establish the truth, and enough truth to make a Public Inquiry necessary. But these legal wheels grind incredibly slowly.
It takes a TV drama series to engage peoples’ emotions and to convey the complete unfairness of the scandal, the injustices carried out and the catastrophic impacts on the lives of innocent people. It is that emotion that galvanises people, electrifies processes and accelerates retribution.
It also helps that it is a General Election year and none of these politicians want to be seen as sitting on their arses by a now well-informed electorate.
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Shandypants
Well-known member
It was first reported as an issue in 2009 it was widely reported by private eye since 2011. A damn site more than you think is acceptable!
Shandypants
Well-known member
The BBC did a panorama on this prior to the dramatisation. It says a lot about this country that people don't take any notice of serious articles or documentaries and rely on a dramatisation. I'm glad it's become a public scandal but I'm sickened by that creep Sunak suddenly trying to be the Knight in shining armour. He's a slimy little fucker
BBC One - Panorama, The Post Office Scandal
The story of the most widespread miscarriage of justice in British legal history.
OneStepBeyond
Well-known member
Public sector vibes.
OneStepBeyond
Well-known member
Exactly, which is why it's an instant eye roll from me when someone says they don't watch TV in a patronising tone.
TwelveAngryMen
Well-known member
This is the buffoon running the PO Criminal Prosecution Team
A conveyancer by trade who was running his own business on the side whilst allegedly heading up the division
The answers given in cross examination are a car crash
Can’t even construct a sentence
About 1hr in if you fast forward is cringeworthy as he tries to deny drafting the email that referenced the ‘ bandwagon jumpers ‘ trying to bash Horizon
A conveyancer by trade who was running his own business on the side whilst allegedly heading up the division
The answers given in cross examination are a car crash
Can’t even construct a sentence
About 1hr in if you fast forward is cringeworthy as he tries to deny drafting the email that referenced the ‘ bandwagon jumpers ‘ trying to bash Horizon
Satriale's Pork Store
Well-known member
Being re-shown now on BBC1.The BBC did a panorama on this prior to the dramatisation. It says a lot about this country that people don't take any notice of serious articles or documentaries and rely on a dramatisation. I'm glad it's become a public scandal but I'm sickened by that creep Sunak suddenly trying to be the Knight in shining armour. He's a slimy little fucker
BBC One - Panorama, The Post Office Scandal
The story of the most widespread miscarriage of justice in British legal history.www.bbc.co.uk
It makes your blood boil what the PO put these poor sods through!
BFC_53
Well-known member
The more you read about it, the more it becomes clear that it's a scandal that probably goes to the very top. A lot of those involved keep saying they were misled, but it's completely inconceivable to me that anyone with a single brain cell wouldn't stop and think something weird was going on when so many long service staff suddenly turned to stealing. It's utterly ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as them thinking they could get away with something that affected so many people. If it had been one or two, then we probably wouldn't have heard much of it and it may never have been discovered.
And make no bones about it, the only reason why anything is being done now, aside from the TV drama, is that it's election year. The Tories will do absolutely anything to try and stay in power, and it's why this will now be dealt with quickly in the hopes that it blows over somewhat before the election later this year. It won't, but it won't stop them trying. All the soundbites from MPs on how terrible it is are hollow in the extreme.
And make no bones about it, the only reason why anything is being done now, aside from the TV drama, is that it's election year. The Tories will do absolutely anything to try and stay in power, and it's why this will now be dealt with quickly in the hopes that it blows over somewhat before the election later this year. It won't, but it won't stop them trying. All the soundbites from MPs on how terrible it is are hollow in the extreme.
Satriale's Pork Store
Well-known member
Jarnail Singh; what a Whopper. Evasive and incompetent in equal measure.
His 'interrogation' was a death by a thousand cuts!
It beggars belief. An organisation with the power to prosecute, was giving financial incentives to do so.
Talk about conflict of interest or vested interests.
I really hope a load of prosecutions follow in the post office.
Towerpower99
Well-known member
Today could be an interesting day..one of the heavy handed post office investigators is appearing in front of the committee today…..huge media presence… hope he is shitting himself now…..
1966_and_all_that
Well-known member
There have always been current affairs programmes and other media that have lifted the lid on nasty goings on: Harold Evans in the Sunday Times and World in Action on the thalidomide tragedy, John Pilger's coverage of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Perhaps the closest to the current Horizon scandal was the Wednesday Play, "Cathy Come Home" in 1966. That led to the setting up of the charity Shelter. Good quality TV drama can bring stuff to the public consciousness in a way that the political establishment and the judiciary never can.
Shandypants
Well-known member
Most of those you quoted were serous documentary reporting programmes not a netflix style drama. Panorama has done a feature on it but that boring to the love island generation.
It's not a bad thing it's brought it into the public domain, it's hit the perfect storm with a general election loomong and the tories jumping on this to make political gain.