OT - Miners Strikes 80s

GJJW

GJJW

Well-known member
Just watched a very powerful documentary about this. I mean I've been in tears. Brilliant and heartbreaking. How the hell could we do this to our country? I'm not tory, labour, or lib dems but that was just wrong. If guys wanna put this on the political forum then fair enough but it isnt a political post.
 
I watched a good documentary on BBC iplayer about the Northern Irish troubles...that was also very good. Have to say Gerry Adams didn't come out of it very good...
 
Yup-the enemy within is what they called ordinary working people. Have a look at the Aberfan disaster aftermath where they used public donations to move the slag heaps,which epitomised the generation that Thatch came from.
Uncaring,no compassion and a society that has a cost on everything but no value.
 
seasideone said:
Maggie was right to break the unions and the illegal miners strike.

The unions had too much power - sorry if that doesn’t fit people’s personal agenda but the country needed her change.
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Yes, dont agree but that's your prerogative. People wanted to work and feed their families.
 
Plumbs said:
Yup-the enemy within is what they called ordinary working people. Have a look at the Aberfan disaster aftermath where they used public donations to move the slag heaps,which epitomised the generation that Thatch came from.
Uncaring,no compassion and a society that has a cost on everything but no value.
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I'd like to have a beer with you.
 
No - people wanted to strike and bring the government down.

Miners had done it previously and needing standing up to.

If they wanted to work they could have done.
 
seasideone said:
Maggie was right to break the unions and the illegal miners strike.

The unions had too much power - sorry if that doesn’t fit people’s personal agenda but the country needed her change.
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Can't argue with that but what you don't do is throw communities and hard working families on the rubbish tip to fend for themselves,and forget their selfless contribution in times of war etc.
The miners worked down the pits to keep our factories supplied when bombs were falling on our industrial towns and cities,and were every bit as important as those who flew,fought and sailed in the defence of these islands.
 
I agree the unions had too much power and needed bringing down a peg or too.
Was it really necessary to effectively close the coal fields and wipe out so much of our manufacturing base, and devastate so many working class communities in order to achieve that?
 
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Are we energy self sufficient at the moment?

If we aren’t, do we think it would be a good idea if we were? And would coal have a part to play in that?

Or is it easier to continue importing our energy needs from Eastern Europe? Our IT from China? And, in the future, our chickens and chlorine from the US?

Just wondering like. As there are so many Right Wing “stuff the unions and the EU; Britain First” Patriots on here, hopefully they’ll have thought it through and have an answer.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Are we energy self sufficient at the moment?

If we aren’t, do we think it would be a good idea if we were? And would coal have a part to play in that?

Or is it easier to continue importing our energy needs from Eastern Europe? Our IT from China? And, in the future, our chickens and chlorine from the US?

Just wondering like. As there are so many Right Wing “stuff the unions and the EU; Britain First” Patriots on here, hopefully they’ll have thought it through and have an answer.
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Totally reliant on imported everything. Luckily we have frictionless borders through being part of the largest trading bloc in the world...
 
Plumbs said:
Yup-the enemy within is what they called ordinary working people. Have a look at the Aberfan disaster aftermath where they used public donations to move the slag heaps,which epitomised the generation that Thatch came from.
Uncaring,no compassion and a society that has a cost on everything but no value.
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This generation of Tories are no better if not worse.
 
Tough one this. You'd have to have a heart of stone not to feel for the families and communities that were left without the focal point they had had for generations. However :

1. I think the coal industry's day was largely done by then, in the sense that many of the pits were uneconomic (we probably switched one unsustainable model for another based upon benefit-dependency, but that is another story). The end would have come for many of those pits sooner or later.

2. It's also true that the Government picked the fight at a time of its choosing. They could have confronted the union the previous year, but waited until they stockpiled enough coal for a long fight, and then forced the issue in the spring.

3. But for me the biggest single factor was the hubris of the NUM leadership. They thought they were bigger than the Government, and were wrong. They thought they could out-manoeuvre the Government, and were wrong about that too. The outcome shamed everyone, in many ways - but the NUM have to take their share of it.

In fact, if you are a trades unionist, I'd say you can put the raft of legislation limiting union power that followed squarely at the NUM's door. If it hadn't been for Orgreave et al, then a lot of that reform might not have happened.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Are we energy self sufficient at the moment?

If we aren’t, do we think it would be a good idea if we were? And would coal have a part to play in that?

Or is it easier to continue importing our energy needs from Eastern Europe? Our IT from China? And, in the future, our chickens and chlorine from the US?

Just wondering like. As there are so many Right Wing “stuff the unions and the EU; Britain First” Patriots on here, hopefully they’ll have thought it through and have an answer.
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The ‘British Patriots‘ are too naive, or oblivious to the fact that we don’t own anything anymore, all sold off by the patriotic conservatives over the years! What saps.
 
basilrobbie said:
Tough one this. You'd have to have a heart of stone not to feel for the families and communities that were left without the focal point they had had for generations. However :

1. I think the coal industry's day was largely done by then, in the sense that many of the pits were uneconomic (we probably switched one unsustainable model for another based upon benefit-dependency, but that is another story). The end would have come for many of those pits sooner or later.

2. It's also true that the Government picked the fight at a time of its choosing. They could have confronted the union the previous year, but waited until they stockpiled enough coal for a long fight, and then forced the issue in the spring.

3. But for me the biggest single factor was the hubris of the NUM leadership. They thought they were bigger than the Government, and were wrong. They thought they could out-manoeuvre the Government, and were wrong about that too. The outcome shamed everyone, in many ways - but the NUM have to take their share of it.

In fact, if you are a trades unionist, I'd say you can put the raft of legislation limiting union power that followed squarely at the NUM's door. If it hadn't been for Orgreave et al, then a lot of that reform might not have happened.
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There is still at least 200 years worth of coal under our feet. Whether the populace these days would want to go underground and get it is a moot point.

You're right about the NUM. They got every aspect of the strike wrong in terms of timing, media handling and tactics.

Lions led by donkeys applies equally to the miners and their leadership.

The incalculable amount of damage across vast swathes of the North caused by the closure of the mines and a myriad of ancillary industries is still being felt now.

I'm sure it would have been cheaper to keep the mines open for the sense of community worth and reduction in benefit dependency, never mind the impact on health, society and general structure of the area.

To beat Scargill, the long term damage was seen as a price worth paying.

Still paying it now though. Deliberate destruction of literally millions of lives.
 
Topically, lovely pic of Wor Jackie at the Miners Gala march. He knew what was important to his community.

Delighted to see so many posts about the loss of control of our own energy caused by Thatcher. Left us strategically vulnerable from then till now, having to tolerate China, Russia and Saudi Arabian policies to ensure the lights stay on.

Those pesky miners doing a dreadful dangerous job wanting a fraction of what the useless stockbrokers needed, disgraceful and unpatriotic.
 
Wizaard said:
There is still at least 200 years worth of coal under our feet. Whether the populace these days would want to go underground and get it is a moot point.

You're right about the NUM. They got every aspect of the strike wrong in terms of timing, media handling and tactics.

Lions led by donkeys applies equally to the miners and their leadership.

The incalculable amount of damage across vast swathes of the North caused by the closure of the mines and a myriad of ancillary industries is still being felt now.

I'm sure it would have been cheaper to keep the mines open for the sense of community worth and reduction in benefit dependency, never mind the impact on health, society and general structure of the area.

To beat Scargill, the long term damage was seen as a price worth paying.

Still paying it now though. Deliberate destruction of literally millions of lives.
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Yes and South Wales, the North East, the Midlands, Southern Scotland etc etc.
 
seasideone said:
Maggie was right to break the unions and the illegal miners strike.

The unions had too much power - sorry if that doesn’t fit people’s personal agenda but the country needed her change.
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She deliberately turned on citizens of this country. She gave the Police all the overtime they wanted to take their ID badges off and batter people fearful for their jobs.
So, you won't mind me if I tell you to fuck off.
 
Poland was selling their coal so cheap even with the cost of importing it it worked out less than the cost of coal mined in UK. They still have masses of coal in the ground even to this day.You will see plenty of coalmen delivering there even today but must be 30 years at least since I seen one in UK. Policing was brutal no doubt about that.
 
And what did we get out of Thatcher and the Tories killing off the Unions.

Zero hours contracts, Minimum Wage Jobs (and below) and an era where HR can sack you for taking a tea break.
Jobs for life?........lucky to get a job for 5 years without downsizing, restructuring and industries totally disappearing
 
Trammo said:
Poland was selling their coal so cheap even with the cost of importing it it worked out less than the cost of coal mined in UK. They still have masses of coal in the ground even to this day.You will see plenty of coalmen delivering there even today but must be 30 years at least since I seen one in UK. Policing was brutal no doubt about that.
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Yes but if you add on the costs of redundancies, years and years of benefit payments right across the country, and all the knock on effects of all that unemployment and heartache then that Polish coal doesn’t look all that cheap after all.
 
They
glasshalffull said:
Yes but if you add on the costs of redundancies, years and years of benefit payments right across the country, and all the knock on effects of all that unemployment and heartache then that Polish coal doesn’t look all that cheap after all.
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I saw brothers fighting with brothers, and children in a bad way. Maybe the doc was OTT but it got me.
 
I read recently about Bruce Springsteen playing St. James Park in 1985. He took some time out to meet with the Durham Miners Association and quietly donated $20,000 (equivalent to $50,000 today) to feed the miners families.

Extremely generous and a class touch for a global superstar from a completely different country to do. I imagine he must empathised with their plight

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

How Bruce Springsteen helped feed miners' families in the wake of '84-'85 strike

Springsteen brought his tour to Newcastle in June 1985 - just months after the miners' strike ended, he helped put food on their tables
www.chroniclelive.co.uk www.chroniclelive.co.uk
 
My grandfather, his father and his 5 brothers were all Durham miners in the early part of the 20th century. He went down the pit at 14 in 1904 and whilst it was s dirty and often dangerous profession (especially pre WW1), it was relatively well paid, compared to other forms of manual labour. In WW1 there were nearly one and a half million miners, because it was largely manual labour and also the demand for coal, both in industry and domestically was at its peak. After WW1 and in the decades afterwards the demand for coal reduced dramatically and mechanisation also meant fewer miners were needed. Cheaper foreign coal also meant more pits here became uneconomic.
Durham miners were a hardy lot, but my grandfather did become totally disillusioned with the unions, as they were on strike so many times after WW1 that my grandmother said they often had no money. He managed to get out of the pits in 1930 and moved across to Fleetwood to work on the docks.
Unfortunately, over the decades the NUM never really changed their tactics. I met Scargill a few times in the 1970s. Whilst in public he was a loud mouthed rabble rouser he was also an intelligent man and much quieter when the cameras werent on him. One of the most intelligent and fascinating debates I witnessed was one between him and Keith Joseph in 1979. Unfortunately, for him it wasn't just an economic struggle, but also one where politically he wanted to defeat the Government and create a socialist state. Many of us will remember the record number of days lost to strikes in the 1970s, the 3 day week, the power cuts and the rubbish piling up in the streets (and much of that was under a Labour Government). The country was simply being held to ransom by the unions, especially the miners. That simply couldn't go on.
Where successive Governments have consistenly failed (and not just Tory ones) is that in the North and Midlands traditional industries have disappeared for economic reasons (coal, cotton, steel, shipbuilding, car production) and these were often the main or only employer in the town and have not been replaced by alternatives. The lack of investment in those areas compared to the south east was highlighted in the last election. Whether anything will finally be done about it remains to be seen!
 
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I left school in 1980 and Thatcher had taken away all apprenticeships and the like and replaced them with exploitive 'youth training schemes' at £18 a week. 40 hours a week at least, exploited by the employer and then 'let go' at the end of your 3 or 6 month stint. God the UK was in bleak times then..
 
Maggie was right to what she did, the country could no longer continue the way it was going.

Yes it was a revolution but we couldn’t continue manufacturing low cost products - we needed to change.

People seem to forget that more people have had proper opportunity because of her, as to a large degree she taught your class was irrelevant, hard work got you places and it did.

It’s also interesting that Labour did not revoke any of Maggie’s new union laws.
 
seasideone said:
Maggie was right to what she did, the country could no longer continue the way it was going.

Yes it was a revolution but we couldn’t continue manufacturing low cost products - we needed to change.

People seem to forget that more people have had proper opportunity because of her, as to a large degree she taught your class was irrelevant, hard work got you places and it did.

It’s also interesting that Labour did not revoke any of Maggie’s new union laws.
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That is the funniest thing I have seen on here in ages. Have you met our Government of Privately educated upper class toffs?
 
BobHatton said:
I left school in 1980 and Thatcher had taken away all apprenticeships and the like and replaced them with exploitive 'youth training schemes' at £18 a week. 40 hours a week at least, exploited by the employer and then 'let go' at the end of your 3 or 6 month stint. God the UK was in bleak times then..
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Sorry Bob, disagree.
I also left school in 1980 and applied for jobs at BNFL, ICI, the gas board, the electric board, British Aerospace and several other smaller engineering companies all offering good apprenticeships.
Was offered jobs at most of those, chose British Aerospace (now BAe systems) and have been there ever since.

I've been through strikes and they're not nice places to be in. 30 years on and people who are still there who were involved are being called scabs and black legs it runs that deep.

As for the miners strike you had two people, in Thatcher and Scargill who made it a personal vendetta against one another.
Unfortunately for Scargill, Thatcher had the best hand by a country mile , it was sacrilege that 1000's of men were used in their 'game of thrones' and was the start of de nationalising everything great about Britain.

Out of all the companies I mentioned where I applied for apprenticeships only BAe and a handful of back street companies remain, that's the sad legacy of the miners strike
 
Tangerinemoss said:
That is the funniest thing I have seen on here in ages. Have you met our Government of Privately educated upper class toffs?
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Your missing the point - class became less important and more people had the opportunities they never had before and also had the chance to own their own homes.

She got more people interested in and owning of shares - investing in their own future.

She made it ok to come from nothing and become self made.

She changed UK manufacturing from the basket case it was to the higher end successful manufacturing we still do today.

She was a genius who without i genuinely believe UK plc would have been insolvent.

What a woman ❤️
 
seasideone said:
Your missing the point - class became less important and more people had the opportunities they never had before and also had the chance to own their own homes.

She got more people interested in and owning of shares - investing in their own future.

She made it ok to come from nothing and become self made.

She changed UK manufacturing from the basket case it was to the higher end successful manufacturing we still do today.

She was a genius who without i genuinely believe UK plc would have been insolvent.

What a woman ❤
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She made you money didnt she? Fair play but just be honest about it. At the same time she made millions starve.
 
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Not watched it yet but will definitely. Be interesting as I come from a mining family that suffered during the strike. Yes it broke communities and people, having to queue weekly for food parcels, no central heating at the time so having to in the dark of night get coal from the huge stockpile Maggie had built up, by the way we were law abiding citizens. This was the Tories way of hitting back after the 70s strike, as for the unions having too much power for my sins I'm a union rep and I would definitely say management got too much power now negotiations over basics like pay rises are difficult to say the least. Community still broken scabs who broke the strike are still no spoken to even after 30 odd years. Be interesting when we play in Nottinghamshire that those of you that support Maggie over this will sing praise for the notts scabs. Sorry for rant but living through that strike leaves very bad memories.
 
The miners strike was engineered by the Thatcher government for one purpose to destroy the trade union movement. The raft of legislation was introduced years earlier during g a strike at a French newspaper in Stockport, the Stockport courier, anyone remember Eddie Shah?
I would love to know who the government meant the time who fed Scargill info. Everything he said the Government wanted to do came to fruition a few years later.
 
GJJW said:
She made you money didnt she? Fair play but just be honest about it. At the same time she made millions starve.
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She gave people opportunities to better themselves.

The unions needed breaking and old Arthur played right into her hands.

You might not like the above, but it is correct.

Can you name a single policy of hers that Labour overturned?
 
seasideone said:
She gave people opportunities to better themselves.

The unions needed breaking and old Arthur played right into her hands.

You might not like the above, but it is correct.

Can you name a single policy of hers that Labour overturned?
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I have no idea re policies. I only watched the doc last night. She gave people opportunities? She stopped millions from working and starved families. That is a fact yes?
 
Industries that employed whole towns had a spirit and togetherness that could stand up and fight for what they believed in. That was always an issue for the Tories and breaking this up was a Thatcher ideology and cost this country it's industry. The only place that still has a set of balls is Liverpool. I doubt any other city would have fought so hard for Hillsborough justice and look how Scousers have been demonised by the Tories (Johnson has written scathing articles) and the press have had their gloves off as far back as I can remember.
The rest of us have turned into selfish pussycats, I'm alright jack pervades throughout this country. The problem comes when people have to fight for betterment, firstly they don't have the stomach and secondly they've fallen for the divide and rule stuff and the working man blames immigrants, turns his nose at benefit claimants and wants to pay as little tax as possible.
 
GJJW said:
I have no idea re policies. I only watched the doc last night. She gave people opportunities? She stopped millions from working and starved families. That is a fact yes?
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She didn’t starve families - they CHOSE to follow the NUM in an illegal strike.

If you are to argue the points you are, surely to have a true debate you must know the policies that she introduced??
 
seasideone said:
She didn’t starve families - they CHOSE to follow the NUM in an illegal strike.

If you are to argue the points you are, surely to have a true debate you must know the policies that she introduced??
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My OP was about the doc. I dont know all the policies on racism but I can argue it's wrong. You are obviously comfortable in your stance on it and fair enough. Personally, it brought me to tears.
 
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