OT - Miners Strikes 80s

seasideone said:
She gave people opportunities to better themselves.

The unions needed breaking and old Arthur played right into her hands.

You might not like the above, but it is correct.

Can you name a single policy of hers that Labour overturned?
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Section 28 🙄
 
Victorsponge said:
I would love to know who the government meant the time who fed Scargill info. Everything he said the Government wanted to do came to fruition a few years later.
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Scargill was indeed vindicated by what happened post 84, and where he claimed the government had an agenda of which the miners were only part of the plan.
Some nonsense earlier in the thread claiming the NUM had a choice on how they dealt with the strike; as their voting procedures gave a mandate for all out strike action which should have been respected by others. If say the FA told the Football Supporters Association how to elect its divisional reps then there would be uproar,or indeed the O's doing the same to BST.

There was as Wizz pointed out 100s of years of coal still there which is high quality and can be used in the manufacture of steel-Orgreave was a coking plant and instrumental in our manufacturing base.
The cost of mining it was/is high but its value intrinsic to the community,a bit like the Crossrail project in London which is running into billions.

The miners might have been up against it with the stockpiling of coal but they had no option,where as stated everything Scargill said was proven to be true.
 
Shandypants said:
Industries that employed whole towns had a spirit and togetherness that could stand up and fight for what they believed in. That was always an issue for the Tories and breaking this up was a Thatcher ideology and cost this country it's industry. The only place that still has a set of balls is Liverpool. I doubt any other city would have fought so hard for Hillsborough justice and look how Scousers have been demonised by the Tories (Johnson has written scathing articles) and the press have had their gloves off as far back as I can remember.
The rest of us have turned into selfish pussycats, I'm alright jack pervades throughout this country. The problem comes when people have to fight for betterment, firstly they don't have the stomach and secondly they've fallen for the divide and rule stuff and the working man blames immigrants, turns his nose at benefit claimants and wants to pay as little tax as possible.
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I tried not to laugh at this post but failed miserably.

if you are left then you will admire how Liverpool has stood up - and must admire how Derick Hatton made everyone redundant using Taxis to deliver the message.

Also let’s get one thing clear about Hillsborough - what the Police did was criminal. But to say the fans had ZERO blame is a joke in my opinion - if you turned up without a ticket and pushed in, you had SOME responsibility - and many did.
 
seasideone said:
Genuinely sorry, I do not follow?
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Your point was that I couldn't argue my piece as I didnt know all Thatchers policies yes? My example was I dont know all racism policies but I know its wrong. That's all. Like I said, you're happy with your stance and fair enough. Give the doc a watch.
 
Grim days indeed families and friends falling out towns and villages where houses were worth nothing because they couldnt sell them because the mines were closed and no work for miles
A law was brought out where only 2 people could picket at any 1 time and the police charging on horseback at gathering of miners which was totally illegal but nobody cared.
Yes Maggie let everybody buy there own homes but at a price she then put interest rates up sky high and pay rises disappeared grim grim days.
 
GJJW said:
They

I saw brothers fighting with brothers, and children in a bad way. Maybe the doc was OTT but it got me.
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Haven’t seen the documentary GJJW. I hope you don’t mind me asking though, but what were your thoughts at the time this was happening? It always felt like a class revenge war to me even then.
 
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Don’t forget the Thatcher governments also had billions in North Sea Oil revenues to play with (estimated at 166 bn between 1980 and 1990 in 2011 currency equivalent).
Look at what Norway has now in terms of sovereign wealth)-yes I know our countries are very different.
They also had the proceeds of all their privatisations.
All of this went mainly on current spending and tax cuts for the wealthy.
Remarkably they managed to underinvest in Public Services and Infrastructure at the same time to say the least.
 
seasideone said:
I tried not to laugh at this post but failed miserably.

if you are left then you will admire how Liverpool has stood up - and must admire how Derick Hatton made everyone redundant using Taxis to deliver the message.

Also let’s get one thing clear about Hillsborough - what the Police did was criminal. But to say the fans had ZERO blame is a joke in my opinion - if you turned up without a ticket and pushed in, you had SOME responsibility - and many did.
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You've just negated any argument you've made by blaming the Liverpool fans, Tory press nonsense that was disproved in every single enquiry. Only dicks with an agenda continue to peddle this nonsense.

Thatcher wanted to break apart working class communities as that was the Labour base, fuck decency and community, every man for himself and tough shit if you got left behind. She was an extremist which led to extremes on both sides.

Labour haven't revoked any of her policies because we've not had a Labour government since. We've only had New Labour.
 
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seasideone said:
I tried not to laugh at this post but failed miserably.

if you are left then you will admire how Liverpool has stood up - and must admire how Derick Hatton made everyone redundant using Taxis to deliver the message.

Also let’s get one thing clear about Hillsborough - what the Police did was criminal. But to say the fans had ZERO blame is a joke in my opinion - if you turned up without a ticket and pushed in, you had SOME responsibility - and many did.
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Funny how every enquiry and review has come to the conclusion that the fans at Hillsborough were blameless, yet you know different.

Thatcher at one point had a policy to DESTROY Liverpool simply because she knew that community had the strength of character to defy her social engineering. All of the thieves and benefit narrative was encouraged by the government so we as normal people would condone the dismantling of a British city. Heseltine personally stepped up and ended her maniacal purpose when he became minister for inner cities. The narrative around Hillsborough generated by her toadies was deliberately fostered to protect her loyal allies in the police force and further damn ordinary football fans as well as ordinary British people living in Liverpool.

No one stopped Thatcher from dismantling the mining communities, she had no understanding of average people with common purpose together pursuing better lives, so she deliberately empoverished British towns and ensured they were no longer financially viable to make sure the social cohesion never returned. She only could refer to our lives on a political level and had no understanding about community.

"There's no such thing as Society", I wonder who said that.

Our towns and social spirit, in what was industrial areas, have never recovered from those policies, to this day.
 
seasideone said:
Your missing the point - class became less important and more people had the opportunities they never had before and also had the chance to own their own homes.

She got more people interested in and owning of shares - investing in their own future.

She made it ok to come from nothing and become self made.

She changed UK manufacturing from the basket case it was to the higher end successful manufacturing we still do today.

She was a genius who without i genuinely believe UK plc would have been insolvent.

What a woman ❤
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There was a video clip the other day of Dominic Cummings father in law insisting that genetics and breeding was the only way to go and that was right and proper. That kind of attitude is entrenched at the top and isn't changing any time soon.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
You've just negated any argument you've made by blaming the Liverpool fans, Tory press nonsense that was disproved in every single enquiry. Only dicks with an agenda continue to peddle this nonsense.
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FY8 - no need to call people things as that generally means your argument is invalid.

can you explain to me the following regardless......

If you have no ticket and you push into a ground, how are you not responsible at all even if it’s 0.000000001%? (I could keep going with the zeros but there is blame)


I know scousers who pushed in that day who say the same!!!

Reality is, the scousers are always the victims!
 
seasideone said:
FY8 - no need to call people things as that generally means your argument is invalid.

can you explain to me the following regardless......

If you have no ticket and you push into a ground, how are you not responsible at all even if it’s 0.000000001%? (I could keep going with the zeros but there is blame)


I know scousers who pushed in that day who say the same!!!

Reality is, the scousers are always the victims!
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Yeah, you're a dick.
 
re
seasideone said:
FY8 - no need to call people things as that generally means your argument is invalid.

can you explain to me the following regardless......

If you have no ticket and you push into a ground, how are you not responsible at all even if it’s 0.000000001%? (I could keep going with the zeros but there is blame)
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You should go and read the subsequent report on the links between Hillsborough and Orgreave in respect of SY police,where senior officers stated that they were close to being wholly controlled by the government. At present the world has issues with the Chinese over human rights issues in Hong Kong but we weren't that far away from that in 1984.
On a separate note I was at Hillsborough in 1987 for our Cup Semi and I can assure you we had the same issues,where fans were crushed but able to manage it without injury or worse.
Had it not been a Sunday lunchtime then it could well have been us,where a coachload of football fans from the Fylde Coast might not have all returned.[/QUOTE]
 
seasideone said:
FY8 - no need to call people things as that generally means your argument is invalid.

can you explain to me the following regardless......

If you have no ticket and you push into a ground, how are you not responsible at all even if it’s 0.000000001%? (I could keep going with the zeros but there is blame)


I know scousers who pushed in that day who say the same!!!

Reality is, the scousers are always the victims!
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Seasideone you were holding your own for a bit ,although I disagree with your analysis if the miners strike apart from Scargill letting his ego run away
Hillsborough though you have git that wrong and your labelling of accusers as victims reveals your real thoughts
However I will go with your 0.0000001% responsible that leaves the police were 99.0000001% responsible
Can still remember the right wing populists at the Sun and Mail at the time blaming supporters etc
Despicable and glad LFC and the wider city shun them
 
Ok just throwing a hand grenade in to this topic!
In 1984, I was a 21 year old serving police officer without a political bone in my body. I went to South Yorkshire, Derbyshire and Nottingham during the miners strike. I didn’t know anything about Scargill or coal pits. I learned very quickly though when a few bricks flew over my head! I couldn’t drive police cars at the time as I only had a motorbike licence.

I was deemed surplus to local police requirements and seconded for 6 months wherever trouble spots arose. Stayed in some pretty shabby accommodation and eat some shit food but the camaraderie was very good amongst colleagues.

Saw a lot of trouble and was in some scary skirmishes but avoided Orgreave.

Met a lot of good miners during that six months one of which is a friend to this day.

We were just doing a job as asked of us by the government. We had no agenda other than to keep the peace and manage to stay in one piece. We had every sympathy with miners and their families despite what the media might portray.

The worst incident I experienced was actually at Glasson Dock where a coal truck travelling at 50mph was attacked by miners with bricks and the resultant collision nearly killed the driver and a few pedestrians.

35 years ago now but a good life experience.
 
seasideone said:
Maggie was right to break the unions and the illegal miners strike.

The unions had too much power - sorry if that doesn’t fit people’s personal agenda but the country needed her change.
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The cuts started under labour and were far more hard hitting which is always forgotten
 
I was also at Shew Wed in the late 80s for a game (can’t remember the year but I accept you may be right 👍).

It was a poor design as is Portsmouth but if you turn up without a ticket and push in you ARE partly responsible - NOBODY on here has given an argument otherwise.

The SY police were beyond disgusting for what they did - no argument.

Maggie was the greatest leader since the great man himself - if she hadn’t done what she did then the country would have been in a far far far worse state.
 
“Maggie was the greatest leader since the great man himself”! If that’s what you really think, then you should seek professional help, She changed this country for the worse in every respect and we will never recover; greed, avarice, I’m alright Jack! A friend of Saville and others. Correctly dubbed the Wicked Witch!
 
EPM46 said:
“Maggie was the greatest leader since the great man himself”! If that’s what you really think, then you should seek professional help, She changed this country for the worse in every respect and we will never recover; greed, avarice, I’m alright Jack! A friend of Saville and others. Correctly dubbed the Wicked Witch!
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I don’t need professional help, and I stand by what I said.

What she put in place was the right thing to do, even Neil Kinnock agreed with most of it a few years later!!
 
seasideone said:
I don’t need professional help, and I stand by what I said.

What she put in place was the right thing to do, even Neil Kinnock agreed with most of it a few years later!!
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The point missed often isn't necessarily what she did but how she did it,which divided the country and created this two tiered polarised political situation we have now.
Don't forget whilst praising her that she was forced out by her own party for the manner in which executed the poll tax, which again showed her hand in causing division within the UK.

Her attitude towards Europe is still prevalent with the current Conservative government, but times and the economic situation has changed since then.
 
seasideone said:
She didn’t starve families - they CHOSE to follow the NUM in an illegal strike.

If you are to argue the points you are, surely to have a true debate you must know the policies that she introduced??
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It was only illegal because the Master of the Rolls kept changing the law. Above is right, they ran a trial with the Iron and Steelworkers strike. I was at Uni at the time, and the Business law lecturers could not understand how our law, derived from Parliament, was being changed at the whim of one man. Maybe wrong but I think it was Lord Donaldson?
 
Thatcher was told to close the mines and move the UK to a service economy as the EU wanted the Eastern Block countries to do the mining as they joined. This is a fact and will be proven once certain documents are unclassified in 2030
 
Ragnarok said:
Thatcher was told to close the mines and move the UK to a service economy as the EU wanted the Eastern Block countries to do the mining as they joined. This is a fact and will be proven once certain documents are unclassified in 2030
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Ah right.

So Thatcher was a puppet of the EU.

I can see that getting traction on here.
 
nameless said:
The point missed often isn't necessarily what she did but how she did it,which divided the country and created this two tiered polarised political situation we have now.
Don't forget whilst praising her that she was forced out by her own party for the manner in which executed the poll tax, which again showed her hand in causing division within the UK.

Her attitude towards Europe is still prevalent with the current Conservative government, but times and the economic situation has changed since then.
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Thatcher was pro Europe.
 
Wizaard said:
Thatcher was pro Europe.
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Well yes ok but I think deeper analysis would show her support for being in Europe was conditional,and that might not have been conducive to staying in too much longer.
The Conservatives were in danger of being ripped wide open again which is why Cameron gave us all the Brexit vote,where essentially the EU was making life difficult for those seeking to profit from it.

Now where were we? 😜
 
Ragnarok said:
Thatcher was told to close the mines and move the UK to a service economy as the EU wanted the Eastern Block countries to do the mining as they joined. This is a fact and will be proven once certain documents are unclassified in 2030
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The idea of Thatchler being told to do anything is quite funny in itself.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
It was only illegal because the Master of the Rolls kept changing the law. Above is right, they ran a trial with the Iron and Steelworkers strike. I was at Uni at the time, and the Business law lecturers could not understand how our law, derived from Parliament, was being changed at the whim of one man. Maybe wrong but I think it was Lord Donaldson?
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Or Denning, perhaps?
 
seasideone said:
I tried not to laugh at this post but failed miserably.

if you are left then you will admire how Liverpool has stood up - and must admire how Derick Hatton made everyone redundant using Taxis to deliver the message.

Also let’s get one thing clear about Hillsborough - what the Police did was criminal. But to say the fans had ZERO blame is a joke in my opinion - if you turned up without a ticket and pushed in, you had SOME responsibility - and many did.
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Poor post. Read about what happened at Hillsborough. Fans were herded blindly into a block that was inappropriate for the numbers. Ticket or no ticket, the responsibility for safety at the ground belonged to the Police.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Poor post. Read about what happened at Hillsborough. Fans were herded blindly into a block that was inappropriate for the numbers. Ticket or no ticket, the responsibility for safety at the ground belonged to the Police.
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No, it’s not a poor post just because you do not agree with it!!

I have read many things about it and talked to people who were there on the day who went without tickets and even some of them agree with what I said (in private).

Fans with no tickets trying to get in where part of the problem.

Problem is too many people are scared to say it in case they offend anyone.
 
seasideone said:
Yeh - we should have just abandoned the majority British population and forces stationed there!!!!!!!!
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I know I will probably regret posting this without properly checking it all, but as I recall it there were no forces stationed there before the conflict only one patrol ship, which the Government had decided to withdraw anyway as part of defence cuts?
There were also ongoing talks involving the US that could have prevented military action until we sank the Belgrano, which was sailing away from our exclusion zone and appeared to be an act designed to make sure that a war would then take place?
 
BobHatton said:
We also lost many lives in the Falklands to keep Thatcher her job....
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Absolutely true! Thatcher's polling in 1981 was through the floor. It was only when John Knott took away the the defensive patrols of the South Atlantic - under Thatcher and Lord Carrington's say so, that Galtierri felt sufficiently emboldened to strike at the Falklands. Thatcher then milked it for all she was worth.
 
seasideone said:
Yeh - we should have just abandoned the majority British population and forces stationed there!!!!!!!!
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No, we should have maintained our navy / research presence, not signalled that we didn't care. Would have saved a lot of lives and millions of pounds. Thatchers government caused the crisis, Peter Carrington resigned, Thatcher milked it for everything she could.

Sorry, 66, we used the same words
 
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