Pilley’s sentence……

T

tigger

Well-known member
….. is the same as the driver of the lorry carrying the 39 Vietnamese migrants who died in an airtight container.
13 years is 4months for each death.

Now I don’t dispute that Pilley was deserving of a long sentence but I’m struggling to see that it’s as serious as 39 counts of manslaughter

Thoughts?
 
tigger said:
….. is the same as the driver of the lorry carrying the 39 Vietnamese migrants who died in an airtight container.
13 years is 4months for each death.

Now I don’t dispute that Pilley was deserving of a long sentence but I’m struggling to see that it’s as serious as 39 counts of manslaughter

Thoughts?
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That anyone who doesn't think fraudsters get long prison sentences are very naive they always have and comparing it to other crimes is a waste of time.
 
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There’s various different ways of looking at this isn’t there…

Firstly, there’s the criminal act itself…

The intention behind it, the level of culpability, the length of time over which offending took place.

I’m not so sure that driving Migrants on a single occasion is necessarily a worse ‘act’ with criminally worse intent ?

Secondly, there’s an assessment of harm done..

On the one hand you have the impact of significant harm on 39 individuals plus relatives etc… On the other you have lesser harm that impacts many thousands of lives.

Again, I’m not convinced that in balancing overall harm that one crime necessarily trumps the other.

It’s difficult to make any real and balanced judgment without access to the full facts. However I don’t think it’s as clear cut as people suggest…. And greater minds than ours will have undertaken the weights and balances exercise on sentencing criteria👍
 
tigger said:
….. is the same as the driver of the lorry carrying the 39 Vietnamese migrants who died in an airtight container.
13 years is 4months for each death.

Now I don’t dispute that Pilley was deserving of a long sentence but I’m struggling to see that it’s as serious as 39 counts of manslaughter

Thoughts?
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Completely unrelated and irrelevant comparison
 
TKL_Seasider said:
Completely unrelated and irrelevant comparison
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In fairness to the O/P, I think any kind of comparison is relevant.

There should (and there will be) some consideration to as to how different types of crime might be compared for sentencing purposes.

So to that extent there should always be justification for one sentence vs another irrespective of whether the type of crime is different.

I think Financial Crime is often seen as victimless, because you don’t necessarily get to attach the crime itself to an individual or individuals and therefore can’t resonate with the impact and harm caused.

There is an impact though and individual lives are destroyed or seriously impacted by fraud and financial crime.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
In fairness to the O/P, I think any kind of comparison is relevant.

There should (and there will be) some consideration to as to how different types of crime might be compared for sentencing purposes.

So to that extent there should always be justification for one sentence vs another irrespective of whether the type of crime is different.

I think Financial Crime is often seen as victimless, because you don’t necessarily get to attach the crime itself to an individual or individuals and therefore can’t resonate with the impact and harm caused.

There is an impact though and individual lives are destroyed or seriously impacted by fraud and financial crime.
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The lorry driver also pleaded guilty and took responsibility for his wrongdoing unlike AP

One of AP’s victims was reportedly suicidal as a result of his actions .
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
In fairness to the O/P, I think any kind of comparison is relevant.

There should (and there will be) some consideration to as to how different types of crime might be compared for sentencing purposes.

So to that extent there should always be justification for one sentence vs another irrespective of whether the type of crime is different.

I think Financial Crime is often seen as victimless, because you don’t necessarily get to attach the crime itself to an individual or individuals and therefore can’t resonate with the impact and harm caused.

There is an impact though and individual lives are destroyed or seriously impacted by fraud and financial crime.
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You are quite right about the impact of victims of financial crime

However it’s not just a question of the nature of the crime. There’s a question of how organised it is/intent, to what extent the person being sentenced is the instigator or organiser, what the convicted person got out of it etc

So how can you compare it?
 
tigger said:
….. is the same as the driver of the lorry carrying the 39 Vietnamese migrants who died in an airtight container.
13 years is 4months for each death.

Now I don’t dispute that Pilley was deserving of a long sentence but I’m struggling to see that it’s as serious as 39 counts of manslaughter

Thoughts?
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That thug who fired a machine gun at a Wirral pub got 48 years minimum. How would you compare it to that? I mean he only pressed the trigger for a few seconds.
 
BigHandsOliverKahn said:
That thug who fired a machine gun at a Wirral pub got 48 years minimum. How would you compare it to that? I mean he only pressed the trigger for a few seconds.
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Err cos he’s a clearly a very dangerous man bhok and shouldn’t be walking the streets for a very very long time

Not sure that applies to AP
 
tigger said:
….. is the same as the driver of the lorry carrying the 39 Vietnamese migrants who died in an airtight container.
13 years is 4months for each death.

Now I don’t dispute that Pilley was deserving of a long sentence but I’m struggling to see that it’s as serious as 39 counts of manslaughter

Thoughts?
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Pilley was the leader, the driver was a bit part player, that's the difference.
 
TKL_Seasider said:
You are quite right about the impact of victims of financial crime

However it’s not just a question of the nature of the crime. There’s a question of how organised it is/intent, to what extent the person being sentenced is the instigator or organiser, what the convicted person got out of it etc

So how can you compare it?
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You can compare it by stripping all of the relevant factors down.

The category of the crime itself will have ‘Sentencing Guidelines’ those guidelines will have been determined based upon a range of factors already.

Then within the context of the guidelines the Judge has to balance aggravating factor and mitigating factors in order to reach the determined sentence…. There will be some degree of consistency and methodology in how that is done.

So factors like intent, level of culpability / seniority, reasons / mitigation such as drug addiction, likelihood to offend again, whether it involved conspiracy, length of time it occurred over, harm caused, level of remorse, guilty or not guilty plea, honesty / dishonesty shown during trial… All factors to be measured and with varying levels of severity.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
In fairness to the O/P, I think any kind of comparison is relevant.

There should (and there will be) some consideration to as to how different types of crime might be compared for sentencing purposes.

So to that extent there should always be justification for one sentence vs another irrespective of whether the type of crime is different.

I think Financial Crime is often seen as victimless, because you don’t necessarily get to attach the crime itself to an individual or individuals and therefore can’t resonate with the impact and harm caused.

There is an impact though and individual lives are destroyed or seriously impacted by fraud and financial crime.
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Both sentences were handed out within the parameters set by the legal system. Those sentences can vary depending on the circumstances of the case and the remorse of the accused. There is precedent which also has an impact on the final sentence.

It really is comparing chalk and cheese.
 
I can see where the OP is coming from - AP isn't a danger to the general public on a physical level I guess, and it's hard to compare fraud with loss of life.
However, as others have said, he's had form for doing this before, and right up until sentencing didn't waver from his version, not to mention the threatening legal action against people that challenged him (Where've we seen that before).

I'm not sure what the right sentence length is not being involved in legal matters, but clealry the judge was less than impressed with the crimes committed.
One thing I would say, is has he done much different to certain Tory MP's, who rather than get a prison term, get a peerage and to keep millions in the bank?
 
fcblackpool said:
Both sentences were handed out within the parameters set by the legal system. Those sentences can vary depending on the circumstances of the case and the remorse of the accused. There is precedent which also has an impact on the final sentence.

It really is comparing chalk and cheese.
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No it’s not comparing Chalk and Cheese at all…

It’s comparing two very different crimes and all of the associated factors that make them up.

It’s right to say they are different crimes.

And it’s also right to say that it is not as simplistic as looking at it on face value.

But to say they cannot be compared is totally wrong. They can be compared and they absolutely must be compared and therefore be justifiable.
 
Fully justified, he caused numerous small businesses to fold and impacted on children's and cancer charities through his litigious actions when he knew that these people had been stitched up, and were struggling financially. Some of his victims considered suicide and he has ruined many many lives through his greed. I hope that there is a thorough investigation into his proceeds from crime and that his assets are stripped. A thoroughly loathsome and repellent individual who deserves everyday of his sentence.
 
I do get that it’s hard to compare different crimes but it just jumped out at me that the two offences resulted in similar sentences

One had a part in criminality that resulted in the deaths of 39 people
He wasn’t a remote player - he drove a vehicle knowing there were illegal immigrants in the back, he knew that the trailer was airtight and had a temperature gauge in the cab
In mitigation he called 999 states at the scene and pleaded guilty

Pilleys offences were financial ones- very very serious and as others have said total denial of responsibility and frankly pissing off the judge

But when you look at the two cases side by it’s difficult to see that they are deserving of the same sentence
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
No it’s not comparing Chalk and Cheese at all…

It’s comparing two very different crimes and all of the associated factors that make them up.

It’s right to say they are different crimes.

And it’s also right to say that it is not as simplistic as looking at it on face value.

But to say they cannot be compared is totally wrong. They can be compared and they absolutely must be compared and therefore be justifiable.
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The comparison is only in absolute terms of the sentence.

Pilley I assume got the top end of what was available and the driver not the top end (don't know the range that was available).

You can't say because X got 10 years then Y should get, whatever. I'm no expert but cross precedent is not a feature of UK law.
 
fcblackpool said:
Pilley I assume got the top end of what was available and the driver not the top end (don't know the range that was available).
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Sentencing Council guidance is here: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Manslaughter-definitive-guideline-Web.pdf

On the face of it, the facts seem to support culpability level D (the lowest), possibly pushing into C, which gives you a starting point of either 2 years or 6 years, and ordinarily multiple deaths would result in concurrent and not consecutive sentences, so on the face of it he's well above the top end, and is into culpability A territory.
 
fcblackpool said:
The comparison is only in absolute terms of the sentence.

Pilley I assume got the top end of what was available and the driver not the top end (don't know the range that was available).

You can't say because X got 10 years then Y should get, whatever. I'm no expert but cross precedent is not a feature of UK law.
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What comparison?

If you're talking about the O/P, then he's not strictly drawn a comparison.... He's highlighted the basics of two crimes and sentences, suggested he is struggling to see whether one is as serious as the other and then asked for people's thoughts.

And nobody has suggested any kind of 'Cross Precedent' either.... I am simply saying that there has to be a justification for the methodology behind the determination of sentences across a broad range of crimes... I mean do you think that sentencing is just 'Random' and that they simply pick 'Rape' out of a hat, followed by a minimum and maximum term determined by a random number generator?
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
What comparison?

If you're talking about the O/P, then he's not strictly drawn a comparison.... He's highlighted the basics of two crimes and sentences, suggested he is struggling to see whether one is as serious as the other and then asked for people's thoughts.

And nobody has suggested any kind of 'Cross Precedent' either.... I am simply saying that there has to be a justification for the methodology behind the determination of sentences across a broad range of crimes... I mean do you think that sentencing is just 'Random' and that they simply pick 'Rape' out of a hat, followed by a minimum and maximum term determined by a random number generator?
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Of course sentencing isn't random. It done on a vertical level based on min/max variables. The crime is an individual crime (once fully established) and is judged as that. Both crimes were individual unrelated crimes and cannot be seen side by side so therefore cannot be compared. Those comparisons, or more accurately separate end punishments are established in English Law.

People may not agree with the drivers sentence, nor Pilleys, but they shouldn't disagree with one because of the other.

I repeat, it's not Top Trumps.
 
fcblackpool said:
Of course sentencing isn't random. It done on a vertical level based on min/max variables. The crime is an individual crime (once fully established) and is judged as that. Both crimes were individual unrelated crimes and cannot be seen side by side so therefore cannot be compared. Those comparisons, or more accurately separate end punishments are established in English Law.

People may not agree with the drivers sentence, nor Pilleys, but they shouldn't disagree with one because of the other.

I repeat, it's not Top Trumps.
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Yes they can be compared and they are compared.
 
And just to add, those comparisons should be drawn by people and they can (absolutely) disagree and should disagree and raise those disagreements persistently and regularly between different types of crime.

And the sentence ‘makers’ should and will be able to justify comparative sentencing across a whole range of crimes, based upon a clear methodology that takes account of a range of factors..And that methodology and justification should be subject to continuous challenge, continuous review and continuous refinement.

No ‘Comparison’ is irrelevant or inappropriate and consistency and a clear methodology and justification across crimes (as well as within them) is absolutely necessary.
 
tigger said:
I do get that it’s hard to compare different crimes but it just jumped out at me that the two offences resulted in similar sentences

One had a part in criminality that resulted in the deaths of 39 people
He wasn’t a remote player - he drove a vehicle knowing there were illegal immigrants in the back, he knew that the trailer was airtight and had a temperature gauge in the cab
In mitigation he called 999 states at the scene and pleaded guilty

Pilleys offences were financial ones- very very serious and as others have said total denial of responsibility and frankly pissing off the judge

But when you look at the two cases side by it’s difficult to see that they are deserving of the same sentence
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Pilley willfully set up to defraud his victims and fully understood the consequences of destroying lives.

I'm not so sure the lorry driver wilfully set out to commit manslaughter on the scale he did. He will have know the potential was there; but I'm not convinced he thought, "what's the best way to kill 39 people?"

There is an element of predetermined action in English law; like one punch murder, not carrying the same sentence as other kinds of murders, or causing death by dangerous driving - a car cannot be a weapon in law etc etc even if the outcome is the same.
 
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poolseasider said:
My mate who lost their Hotel because of BES wished he'd got longer.
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I don’t know anything about pilly /bes etc…but just explain what happened to your mate? So your mate had a successful business and changed energy provider and then went bust???..is that just gas or gas/electric ?
 
TSSeasider said:
Pilley willfully set up to defraud his victims and fully understood the consequences of destroying lives.

I'm not so sure the lorry driver wilfully set out to commit manslaughter on the scale he did. He will have know the potential was there; but I'm not convinced he thought, "what's the best way to kill 39 people?"

There is an element of predetermined action in English law; like one punch murder, not carrying the same sentence as other kinds of murders, or causing death by dangerous driving - a cat cannot be a weapon in law etc etc even if the outcome is the same.
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a car can be determined as a weapon in law look up VAW
 
How long is this thread gonna go on (with respect to anyone who has different views from the judge that passed the sentence )it is what it is, he is doing the time for the crime he has been guilty off ,its fuck all to do with the dick heads on here that think he has been shafted ,take a deep breath and then get your ** heads into real mode ,how would you feel if you or someone in your family were one of the poor bastards that got shafted by this Bastard ,hope gets what he deserves while doing porridge (i know he will) .
please mods shut this down there is no point in continuing this thread.
the guy is guilty as charged.
 
The driver pleaded guilty!
He is remorseful and am sure regrets his actions.
A simple drive with a cargo of people (who knew the risk ) and it went terribly wrong


Pilley pleaded not guilty and kept delaying the Courts.
He also had a criminal record for thieving!

You cannot compare them!
 
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PETER SPRUCE 1 said:
How long is this thread gonna go on (with respect to anyone who has different views from the judge that passed the sentence )it is what it is, he is doing the time for the crime he has been guilty off ,its fuck all to do with the dick heads on here that think he has been shafted ,take a deep breath and then get your ** heads into real mode ,how would you feel if you or someone in your family were one of the poor bastards that got shafted by this Bastard ,hope gets what he deserves while doing porridge (i know he will) .
please mods shut this down there is no point in continuing this thread.
the guy is guilty as charged.
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It’s actually everything to do with the ‘dick heads’ on here and to suggest otherwise is pretty short sighted and a bit daft to be honest.

Every British Citizen has an absolute right to be concerned with and to question sentencing.

Do you think that crime and sentencing should be ignored and not subject to rigorous scrutiny?

It is a subject that should be questioned and scrutinised to the absolute maximum!!
 
PETER SPRUCE 1 said:
How long is this thread gonna go on (with respect to anyone who has different views from the judge that passed the sentence )it is what it is, he is doing the time for the crime he has been guilty off ,its fuck all to do with the dick heads on here that think he has been shafted ,take a deep breath and then get your ** heads into real mode ,how would you feel if you or someone in your family were one of the poor bastards that got shafted by this Bastard ,hope gets what he deserves while doing porridge (i know he will) .
please mods shut this down there is no point in continuing this thread.
the guy is guilty as charged.
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Have you been on the sangria Peter ?
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s actually everything to do with the ‘dick heads’ on here and to suggest otherwise is pretty short sighted and a bit daft to be honest.

Every British Citizen has an absolute right to be concerned with and to question sentencing.

Do you think that crime and sentencing should be ignored and not subject to rigorous scrutiny?

It is a subject that should be questioned and scrutinised to the absolute maximum!!
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So pray ,if you where the judge what would you have decided ?
and for scutinising have you even bothered to look into why he got this sentence?
 
seasiderjohn said:
proof that courts think money is more valuable than life
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Did Pilley get a 40+ year sentence

Edit: The lorry driver received a 13 year sentence for each life lost. He had no intention of taking those lives

Pilley knew what he was doing
 
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Blackpool_Gaz said:
Did Pilley get a 40+ year sentence

Edit: The lorry driver received a 13 year sentence for each life lost. He had no intention of taking those lives

Pilley knew what he was doing
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to run concurrent so 13 years so out in 6.5 years he committed a criminal offence for monetary gain
also ring leader who knew the risk gets 12 years and he knew what he was doing i stand by my statement money means more than lives in this country

news.sky.com

Essex lorry deaths: Romanian people smuggler jailed for manslaughter of 39 migrants

Marius Mihai Draghici is sentenced over the deaths of 39 Vietnamese migrants who were found dead in a lorry trailer in Grays, Essex, in October 2019. A court hears they suffered "unimaginable suffering and anguish" in their finals hours.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
 
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PETER SPRUCE 1 said:
So pray ,if you where the judge what would you have decided ?
and for scutinising have you even bothered to look into why he got this sentence?
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I've not offered any criticism of the individual sentence and (personally speaking) I can't say I'm particularly motivated to comment on the specific details of the case itself. I wasn't in the court to hear the specifics.

However...I am commenting on the right of people to discuss the case, to question the sentence (if they wish) and to draw comparisons and express their opinions or concerns about how different sentences for different crimes might compare to each other. It seems to me that people ought to be free to have that discussion without being the subject of abusive insults.... Perhaps you might take your own advice and place people on ignore or simply avoid the discussion, if you are unable to keep a civil tongue in your head?

This is an internet discussion forum... People on here discuss stuff.... The topic is one that is of interest and the O/P raises a perfectly legitimate question.
 
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