Playing out from the back

S

Supersub

Well-known member
This is a style of play that the manager clearly favours. When it works, Great but the evidence so far is that it is not working and from what I have seen the players are not comfortable with it and are really struggling to adapt and understand what NC is asking them to do. The last two home games I have seen NC going absolutely apoplectic on a couple of occasions one involving Husband when they were not following what they had been told to do.
What seems to be happening is that we pass the ball around slowly and ponderously at the back, get to the half way line at which point nobody knows what to do with the ball so either one of two things happen. The ball goes backwards again or the ball is hoofed forward usually ending up back in possession of the opposition. We have spent about 5 minutes passing it around only to hoof it anyway , lose possession and immediately put ourselves under pressure. This goes on throughout the game. I believe that the players at the back have become fearful of being the one to get near to the half way line and have that responsibility to make an incisive pass forward and that’s why it comes back again. The pressure on the players will only get worse if the Manager doesn’t sort this out because you can sense the frustration in the crowd already, the players will definitely hear and be affected by it so this needs sorting out quickly. There were no crowds at the start of last season but we know what a fickle lot we can be and the last thing needed is for the home supporters to be vocally venting our frustrations out on the players who are only trying to follow what the manager is telling them to do.
 
Effective tactic when winning and looking to close the game out. Also useful for probing the opposition and looking for openings, but doing it as we do starting and ending with the keeper is just irritating. I keep watching Jerry Yates making runs and never receiving the ball to his feet.
What's more, it's easy for the opposition manager to nullify the tactic by closing our defence down
 
When done right a pass from the keeper to a half marked CB should receive the ball and already have a pass in mind first time simple to another cb who should have a bit more space.

He then plays it forward either wide or in the middle. Although there are other ways.

You need the players aware and taking the ball on the half turn.

Crisp passes good first touch or first time pass.


Critch will know exactly what to do, its aboit getting the players comfy.

My issue is we have a sub optimal back line with some oit of position.

Get hubby to LB, get Marv in and then do it.

They did it very well in the Cup, lesser opposition yes but they knew what to do.
 
The style of play is fine, we just need to adapt a bit to the league and get our players back into the team. Patience people, it's a tough league and we will get better and better at it
 
To me, the aim at the moment seems to be to get either of the fullbacks in possession when they can go forward, until then it doesn't get further than Maxi/Keogh/Husband. We've already been worked out on this, you could see the Cardiff midfield gesturing others forward to press on our back line and several times, if Keogh/Husband was stood either side of the keeper in the area, then the box was lined with them waiting to drop on us. Coventry had the really quick lad at RB/RWB who shut Garbutt down all night. And we'd no alternatives because midfield was getting swamped, and Land of the Giants was being refilmed further up the pitch.

Defensive midfield is where we can relieve this pressure, and the return of Kev Stewart can't happen soon enough. Him and a fit and raring to go Dougall will give us more calmed control in possession. I also hope to see Cam Antwi at some point this season doing the same.

And one thing about it. I've so far felt like I needed to watch us playing out from behind a cushion, it's scaring me to death every time we try it. But, behind their front lines there's so much space, if we can actually get through the front part safely. The teams are spread out over all our half and into theirs at our goalkicks - when it's theirs it's the usual 20 players either side of halfway and looking like the pitch has been lifted up on one side.

Sharper passing and better control of the ball and we could be into dangerous areas quite quick, through various channels. As the midfield gets starts to be targetted then the pressure will be less on the width. The only way we had on Tuesday was a long throw or drop kick to Bowler, and it actually worked more than it maybe should have, but he'll be happier if we're passing through to him.
 
You generally have two options; first is to play it across the back, and backwards if necessary, patiently waiting for an opportunity to play into midfield. Second is to get it forward much more quickly even if there isn't an opportunity to play in to midfield, which therefore means a long ball.
When your strikers are much smaller than the opposing defence and don't stand a chance of winning the aerial battle, I find the second infinitely more frustrating than the first.
 
CGP1 said:
To me, the aim at the moment seems to be to get either of the fullbacks in possession when they can go forward, until then it doesn't get further than Maxi/Keogh/Husband. We've already been worked out on this, you could see the Cardiff midfield gesturing others forward to press on our back line and several times, if Keogh/Husband was stood either side of the keeper in the area, then the box was lined with them waiting to drop on us. Coventry had the really quick lad at RB/RWB who shut Garbutt down all night. And we'd no alternatives because midfield was getting swamped, and Land of the Giants was being refilmed further up the pitch.

Defensive midfield is where we can relieve this pressure, and the return of Kev Stewart can't happen soon enough. Him and a fit and raring to go Dougall will give us more calmed control in possession. I also hope to see Cam Antwi at some point this season doing the same.

And one thing about it. I've so far felt like I needed to watch us playing out from behind a cushion, it's scaring me to death every time we try it. But, behind their front lines there's so much space, if we can actually get through the front part safely. The teams are spread out over all our half and into theirs at our goalkicks - when it's theirs it's the usual 20 players either side of halfway and looking like the pitch has been lifted up on one side.

Sharper passing and better control of the ball and we could be into dangerous areas quite quick, through various channels. As the midfield gets starts to be targetted then the pressure will be less on the width. The only way we had on Tuesday was a long throw or drop kick to Bowler, and it actually worked more than it maybe should have, but he'll be happier if we're passing through to him.
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Spot on
 
To be accurate, I think way more often than nor Maxwell rolls the ball out to a defender, we pass it around the back four for a bit and then we go long. Not sure that's classed as playing it out from the back. As has been said we need to do it quicker and sharper and players in midfield have to get into space to make themselves available to get the ball. On tuesday, particularly Ward and James were hiding from doing that. Certainly first half anyway.
 
Larryknows said:
The style of play is fine, we just need to adapt a bit to the league and get our players back into the team. Patience people, it's a tough league and we will get better and better at it
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Larry

Fair points but please can I ask whether we have the personnel to play out from the back at this level without being accused of being impatient.
 
20togo said:
To be accurate, I think way more often than nor Maxwell rolls the ball out to a defender, we pass it around the back four for a bit and then we go long. Not sure that's classed as playing it out from the back. As has been said we need to do it quicker and sharper and players in midfield have to get into space to make themselves available to get the ball. On tuesday, particularly Ward and James were hiding from doing that. Certainly first half anyway.
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The teams we are playing now are stopping us doing it, very effectively. But it's not that hard when it's Keogh at the back and there's no Stewart or Dougall in front of him. We will get better at it.
SEASIDE2020 said:
Larry

Fair points but please can I ask whether we have the personnel to play out from the back at this level without being accused of being impatient.
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Yes we have Marv, Casey, Stewart, Gretarsson, Dougall. Hence we are a bit hamstrung at the minute.
 
Seasider1953 said:
A crowd should not be able to influence the orders given to the players, I still think they will adapt , it’s only 3 games for God’s sake !
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53

I completely agree with what you say about the crowd and orders given to players but would ask you whether you think we have the personnel to play out from the back at the level we are currently operating at ?
 
voyeur said:
The teams we are playing now are stopping us doing it, very effectively. But it's not that hard when it's Keogh at the back and there's no Stewart or Dougall in front of him. We will get better at it.

Yes we have Marv, Casey, Stewart, Gretarsson, Dougall. Hence we are a bit hamstrung at the minute.
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Voy

That's fair enough but maybe my question should have been do you think that we should have been playing out from the back in our last two matches ?

I am of the opinion that our players were not good enough - maybe it's nicer to say not comfortable enough on the ball - to do so and that we shouldn't employ such tactics because of that, we were very lucky to be not be punished more than we were after making mistakes and most of the time we ended up passing it around before somebody - usually Maxwell - punted forward as 20's suggested.

We did change during the Cardiff match when they went for a big press on goal kicks.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Voy

That's fair enough but maybe my question should have been do you think that we should have been playing out from the back in our last two matches ?

I am of the opinion that our players were not good enough - maybe it's nicer to say not comfortable enough on the ball - to do so and that we shouldn't employ such tactics because of that, we were very lucky to be not be punished more than we were after making mistakes and most of the time we ended up passing it around before somebody - usually Maxwell - punted forward as 20's suggested.

We did change during the Cardiff match when they went for a big press on goal kicks.
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What was the alternative?
 
It was something we lacked last season then sussed it out and now again we're in the same boat. We lack creativity in the middle of the park to be effective playing it out from the back and on the ground. I don't see Stewart as the saviour to that problem, I see Stewart as an antidote to our being overrun and bullied in the midfield. Him and Dougall made a lovely pairing behind our creative midfielders/wingers last season which allowed them to express themselves and they mopped everything up and linked the play from the defence.

When we started playing Kaikai and Embleton simultaneously last season it was a light bulb moment. We started playing with purpose and running through the middle of the park it was glorious to watch - think Gillingham at home and Lincoln away with all those beautiful goals where everyone got a touch of the ball before pulling off a lovely move. It's why we desperately need to bring in a talented CAM before the window closes.
 
There is nothing wrong with playing out from the back, we should expect our defenders to be comfortable with the ball and moving the ball forward quickly. Clearly we have a problem with this at present a fine example being the first half on tuesday the ball continually being passed back to Maxwell. Agree with others that we do have players to come back such as Stewart, Dougall, Ekpiteta and Gretarsson who can make a difference. We need everybody fit and strong and playing in positions they are comfortable and adept in.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
Lump it to a big man, I don't pay money to see footballers actually playing football.
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I don't know what I don't pay money for ?

I do pay money to watch my team and the main thing I want from the game is for my team to score more goals than the opposition and if not the same number.

Apologies if you were suggesting the same but not sure what you were suggesting ?
 
Regardless of which style of play we use there are pros and cons. Lumping it up generally gives the ball away and it's not that easy to get back. I'm happy with what we are doing, players will come back and I think players will also come in and we will improve. Rome wasn't built in a day. Prefer this to Grayson style lump it to a big man
 
Larryknows said:
Regardless of which style of play we use there are pros and cons. Lumping it up generally gives the ball away and it's not that easy to get back. I'm happy with what we are doing, players will come back and I think players will also come in and we will improve. Rome wasn't built in a day. Prefer this to Grayson style lump it to a big man
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Exactly.
 
voyeur said:
What was the alternative?
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I am not sure Voy but playing out from the back and certainly the way were doing was not something that they should have been doing and they stopped doing it when Cardiff increased their pressing.

I fully appreciate that the players might be under orders to play in a certain way and I'm not suggesting that they should ignore any orders that they receive but I am questioning whether the players we have - and certainly the players we had on the park in the Cardiff game - are comfortable enough on the ball to play in such a manner.

They were often caught out when pressed and gave the ball away or booted it forward under pressure at best.

Towards the end of the first half in the Cardiff game defenders were asking for the ball in the box when we had a goal kick but Cardiff had started lining up like 100m sprinters in the Olympic final and Maxwell shooed them away and launched it forward.

Playing out from the back is suicidal without the players to do it.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
I am not sure Voy but playing out from the back and certainly the way were doing was not something that they should have been doing and they stopped doing it when Cardiff increased their pressing.

I fully appreciate that the players might be under orders to play in a certain way and I'm not suggesting that they should ignore any orders that they receive but I am questioning whether the players we have - and certainly the players we had on the park in the Cardiff game - are comfortable enough on the ball to play in such a manner.

They were often caught out when pressed and gave the ball away or booted it forward under pressure at best.

Towards the end of the first half in the Cardiff game defenders were asking for the ball in the box when we had a goal kick but Cardiff had started lining up like 100m sprinters in the Olympic final and Maxwell shooed them away and launched it forward.

Playing out from the back is suicidal without the players to do it.
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We don't have the players to play a long ball game, and the fans kicked off when Larry went down that sort of route. Yates and Lavery up front? We are recruiting, I think, to play to a system, with some flexibility. We mixed it up last season and I see the same this season. We are just:
- finding it much harder
- missing key players
- struggling to recruit

We will gradually get better like last season, I'm sure, and hopefully that will be enough. How will we get better?
- experience
- tweaking the system
- key players returning
- players then moving to best positions
- new signings
- increased confidence
 
To use this tactic effectively, the defenders have to be as good on the ball as the opposition forwards / midfielders who they face & our current back four aren't.
When our defenders receive the ball they have to either pass it short, sideways / backwards, and when they look to go forward, they're quickly closed down by good championship players. This eventually results in a rushed clearance, more often than not to an opposition player or out of play.
This tactic was effective in L1, but we're struggling to deploy it in the championship.
 
voyeur said:
We don't have the players to play a long ball game, and the fans kicked off when Larry went down that sort of route. Yates and Lavery up front? We are recruiting, I think, to play to a system, with some flexibility. We mixed it up last season and I see the same this season. We are just:
- finding it much harder
- missing key players
- struggling to recruit

We will gradually get better like last season, I'm sure, and hopefully that will be enough. How will we get better?
- experience
- tweaking the system
- key players returning
- players then moving to best positions
- new signings
- increased confidence
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Voy

All good points.

While I agree with what you say about not having the players to play a long ball game, my point is that not playing the ball out effectively has higher penalties.

Yes, you may have to work on something - anything - before it is perfected along the line and that's OK if no damage is done on the way to perfection.

If we are unable to play the ball out and are punished this will result in concession of goals and loss of matches and a lack of confidence.

I think I probably generally agree with most of what you are saying but I don't think that we can afford to play out from the back at the moment.

Obviously I am now speaking with the benefit of hindsight and before the Cardiff game I didn't say a word about playing out from the back but I thought it was clear from early on in that game that it was not the way to go and while I hear what you say about things and appreciate the long term benefits, I think that it might possibly get even harder as our opponents will do their homework and when they see other sides enjoying success from pressing us they are more likely to press harder themselves - making it harder for us to get better, more likely to get punished, lower confidence even more etc, etc.
 
Brett scores for fun said:
To use this tactic effectively, the defenders have to be as good on the ball as the opposition forwards / midfielders who they face & our current back four aren't.
When our defenders receive the ball they have to either pass it short, sideways / backwards, and when they look to go forward, they're quickly closed down by good championship players. This eventually results in a rushed clearance, more often than not to an opposition player or out of play.
This tactic was effective in L1, but we're struggling to deploy it in the championship.
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Brett

Thanks Brett, that's what I wanted to say but you explained it far better.

Will you answer for me in future please.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Voy

All good points.

While I agree with what you say about not having the players to play a long ball game, my point is that not playing the ball out effectively has higher penalties.

Yes, you may have to work on something - anything - before it is perfected along the line and that's OK if no damage is done on the way to perfection.

If we are unable to play the ball out and are punished this will result in concession of goals and loss of matches and a lack of confidence.

I think I probably generally agree with most of what you are saying but I don't think that we can afford to play out from the back at the moment.

Obviously I am now speaking with the benefit of hindsight and before the Cardiff game I didn't say a word about playing out from the back but I thought it was clear from early on in that game that it was not the way to go and while I hear what you say about things and appreciate the long term benefits, I think that it might possibly get even harder as our opponents will do their homework and when they see other sides enjoying success from pressing us they are more likely to press harder themselves - making it harder for us to get better, more likely to get punished, lower confidence even more etc, etc.
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I think we'd be struggling with any system, to some extent, with the players currently available. And we've stayed in all 3 games, only been 2 goals down for a few minutes against Cardiff. Could easily have got more from all three games, deserved or not.

I do think we need to look at how little our forwards are doing and how under staffed we are in midfield, and get more midfielders on the pitch. Ward needs a lot more help than he's had so far! I'd be leaving Keogh out too, at the back, if nothing else. Just my opinion.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
53

I completely agree with what you say about the crowd and orders given to players but would ask you whether you think we have the personnel to play out from the back at the level we are currently operating at ?
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Yes we do 2020 , in answer to your question , once The Viking , Big Marv , Husband at LB & Stewart back picking up the ball from the defenders . We will hopefully recruit a decent right back will help.
 
voyeur said:
I think we'd be struggling with any system, to some extent, with the players currently available. And we've stayed in all 3 games, only been 2 goals down for a few minutes against Cardiff. Could easily have got more from all three games, deserved or not.

I do think we need to look at how little our forwards are doing and how under staffed we are in midfield, and get more midfielders on the pitch. Ward needs a lot more help than he's had so far! I'd be leaving Keogh out too, at the back, if nothing else. Just my opinion.
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Voy

No problem with any of your opinions whether I agree or not.

I certainly agree that we be struggling with any system and I just don't think we should be playing out from the back.

I think the forwards have limited service but I don't know whether you were questioning them or not.

I think that we have been outplayed in both home games and didn't deserve anything from either game, that is not to say that we are going to get relegated, just that I thought that we were outplayed in both the games.
 
Works perfectly well if you can A) implement it correctly and your good at it, and B) the opposition don’t high press and ate super fit (ala Coventry). Sometimes there’s nothing wrong in punting it long and turning the opposition around.
 
Seasider1953 said:
Yes we do 2020 , in answer to your question , once The Viking , Big Marv , Husband at LB & Stewart back picking up the ball from the defenders . We will hopefully recruit a decent right back will help.
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Sorry 53, as I said to Voy above, maybe I should have asked do you think we have players good enough to be playing from the back in our last 2 matches.

I have no problem with playing it out from the back - or with lumping it forward - but watching the Cardiff game had me strongly doubting whether the players were comfortable enough on the ball to employ such tactics.

Cardiff quickly saw that they were enjoying success when pressing us and stepped it up as a result.

I hear what you say about players currently unavailable who might be more comfortable on the ball.
 
Scaramanga said:
Works perfectly well if you can A) implement it correctly and your good at it, and B) the opposition don’t high press and ate super fit (ala Coventry). Sometimes there’s nothing wrong in punting it long and turning the opposition around.
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Absolutely Scara.

I have no problem with any particular playing style, play to whatever style best suits the available players.

I'm not claiming to know better than Critch and I have the benefit of hindsight.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Voy

No problem with any of your opinions whether I agree or not.

I certainly agree that we be struggling with any system and I just don't think we should be playing out from the back.

I think the forwards have limited service but I don't know whether you were questioning them or not.

I think that we have been outplayed in both home games and didn't deserve anything from either game, that is not to say that we are going to get relegated, just that I thought that we were outplayed in both the games.
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Yeah not arguing with that, just that we have hung in there and teams haven't finished us off. And we could have taken something from all three games. You hear so much about teams at this level punishing you, but the opposite seems to be the case! They seem to be missing chances and giving us the opportunity to draw or even win.
 
voyeur said:
Yeah not arguing with that, just that we have hung in there and teams haven't finished us off. And we could have taken something from all three games. You hear so much about teams at this level punishing you, but the opposite seems to be the case! They seem to be missing chances and giving us the opportunity to draw or even win.
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I'd agree with you in that the scorelines could have been even worse but I think if we don't improve we will start to get mullered.

Hopefully we can just get some results no matter whether we deserve them or not and then see performances levels improve as our confidence grows.


Up the Mighty
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
I'd agree with you in that the scorelines could have been even worse but I think if we don't improve we will start to get mullered.

Hopefully we can just get some results no matter whether we deserve them or not and then see performances levels improve as our confidence grows.


Up the Mighty
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Sure, we need to improve, and we will. But three teams have struggled to finish us off despite dominating us for periods. Gives me a sense that some Championship teams are not that great at scoring goals, even when we concede lots of territory and plenty of chances to them. What did Bristol and Coventry have up front? Not that much really. Shame we didn't grab another couple of points.
 
voyeur said:
Sure, we need to improve, and we will. But three teams have struggled to finish us off despite dominating us for periods. Gives me a sense that some Championship teams are not that great at scoring goals, even when we concede lots of territory and plenty of chances to them. What did Bristol and Coventry have up front? Not that much really. Shame we didn't grab another couple of points.
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Okey doke Voy.

I've only seen the last 2 matches.

I think it's fair to say that you are more confident than me and I hope it turns out that you were right to be so.
 
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SEASIDE2020 said:
Okey doke Voy.

I've only seen the last 2 matches.

I think it's fair to say that you are more confident than me and I hope it turns you were right to be so.
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I'm not 100% confident we will stay up. But I think we will probably improve enough to do so. There are plenty of reasons to believe that we will. This new blog post says exactly what I think, which is a bit weird. 🤣

upthemightypool.co.uk

Opinion: The Case for Optimism

Blackpool sit just above the relegation zone, having only one point from nine and having lost two consecutive home games. Isaac Selley discusses why the start of the season been so underwhelming an…
upthemightypool.co.uk upthemightypool.co.uk
 
More panic, Coventry played out no problem, we are not going to get better at it if we do not try, a mixture of playing it out and going long when it is on works for me, Liverpool play out but also happy to hit long cross field balls when on.
 
This is just my take on things having seen how we have started off this season ( and my comments I’m about to make aren’t necessarily directed at Richard Keogh ).

Maxwell has already proven to be a vociferous and a constructively critic when dictating how he wants his back four ( or five ) to perform when in front of him.
In my eyes it seemed to work perfectly , giving out bollockings when needed.

We still have him blasting out orders when necessary, but also seem to have Keogh doing a similar role in his mannerisms.
He may have the footballing know how, but currently seems to be the one caught out of position with his lack of pace.

We need to inject a bit of pace , and have confidence on an upward trend , rather than knocking it across the back four at a snails pace to either a man already marked, or worse still to an incoming attacker who will punish a silly mistake.

That being said, hoofball is a worse scenario still.

Critchley will uncover the answers soon !
 
This playing out from the back is fine if the players are comfortable with it. Keogh, however, is anything but comfortable with the ball at his feet. He looks like a rabbit caught in the headlights and never has the ball under control. Whenever he is in possession my heart is in my mouth imagining he will surrender the ball to the opposition, as he did on more than one occasion against Coventry. The problem is he has no pace to recover from his mistakes!
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Sorry 53, as I said to Voy above, maybe I should have asked do you think we have players good enough to be playing from the back in our last 2 matches.

I have no problem with playing it out from the back - or with lumping it forward - but watching the Cardiff game had me strongly doubting whether the players were comfortable enough on the ball to employ such tactics.

Cardiff quickly saw that they were enjoying success when pressing us and stepped it up as a result.

I hear what you say about players currently unavailable who might be more comfortable on the ball.
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Sorry 2020, got to agree with you in the fact the players in the last 2 home games were not up to the job , hopefully this will change.
 
Micky Walsh said:
More panic, Coventry played out no problem, we are not going to get better at it if we do not try, a mixture of playing it out and going long when it is on works for me, Liverpool play out but also happy to hit long cross field balls when on.
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Panic doesn't come into it, I just think that the available players are not comfortable enough on the ball to play out from the back and certainly not on the evidence of the last two home games.

I can't say I watch too much of Liverpool but I'm thinking their players are possibly more comfortable on the ball than ours ?
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
53

I completely agree with what you say about the crowd and orders given to players but would ask you whether you think we have the personnel to play out from the back at the level we are currently operating at ?
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I would say that the personnel currently charged with doing it won't be doing so within the next few weeks.
 
I think we have some players at the back who simply cannot pass the ball forward accurately. The worst culprit is Marv and he looks so nervous with the ball at his feet...defensively I quite like him but his distribution is simply not good enough. Viking seems to ping it well and as others have said we are missing Stewart who comes and gets the ball and can pick a pass.
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
I think we have some players at the back who simply cannot pass the ball forward accurately. The worst culprit is Marv and he looks so nervous with the ball at his feet...defensively I quite like him but his distribution is simply not good enough. Viking seems to ping it well and as others have said we are missing Stewart who comes and gets the ball and can pick a pass.
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Funnily enough I thought Marv used the ball well against Middlesbrough after an initial 15 minutes of sideways and backwards passing. He pinged a fair few decent balls down the right wing and made a couple of penetrating runs himself when space opened up.
 
20togo said:
To be accurate, I think way more often than nor Maxwell rolls the ball out to a defender, we pass it around the back four for a bit and then we go long. Not sure that's classed as playing it out from the back. As has been said we need to do it quicker and sharper and players in midfield have to get into space to make themselves available to get the ball. On tuesday, particularly Ward and James were hiding from doing that. Certainly first half anyway.
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liverpool are the prime examples good defensive midfielders and 2 of the best full backs in the world but it showed last year with the main centrebacks out and defensive midfielders out they struggled and we lack that ability to win an ariel battle up front this is why teams can plow forward to press knowing our only option is to try the long ball and we havnt got a big forward to win the ariel battles so it is easy for them to nullyfy us
 
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