Political Parties have all gone down the drain, discuss.

Curryman

Curryman

Well-known member
Looking at the current situation we have, not just in this country, I find it hard to say I'm in favour of any party at the present time.

Why?

Quite simply, there has always been, at least, two sides to any Government and opposition, whoever was in power at the time was kept in its place by the opposition, but does this happen now?

We seem to have gone from friendly but firm politics to antagonistic politics, which can often be seen not only in the Commons but also on boards such as this.

The Conservatives: winning the last election by a landslide, I feel, has encouraged those from the right of the party to become more and more confident in their way of putting ideas across, ideas that are somewhat far-right and therefore unpalatable to a lot of those who voted for them at the last General Election. Could this be their downfall?

The Labour Party: lost the last election, I feel, due to their swing to the left, and therefore the fear of them gaining power. Since then through deliberation, arguments and in the end the crowning of a new leader, strangely a Sir and a public school man, who is further to the right than his predecessor they have started to move towards the middle of the stage, but there is still the threat of a far left-wing revolt, which could upset the voters, once again.

The Lib Dems: Where do they stand? I feel they made a terrible mistake when they threw their hat in with the Conservatives in the coalition government, a case of accepting fools gold and something that set them back a number of years, I still don't understand what it is they stand for.

The Greens: Still an up and coming party, particularly with the climate change problems and so on, but once again apart from saving the planet. what indeed do they stand for? They seem to always have two leaders, I don't understand why, and the antics of the protest groups who no doubt associate themselves with the party, I feel, drive a lot away who may just sympathise with some of their aims.

The old saying of don't scare the horses doesn't appear to apply to either of the main parties and maybe not the lesser parties, so, what is the answer?

Over to you.
 
A very good post.
I think a great deal of the demise in the inclusivity of mainstream political parties can be put down to the rise in instant, IT-based, communication and the reduction in a socially-driven society; not just in the UK but across all developed societies.

Political parties today are seen as being niche - for those who love the processes and the procedures; the apparatchiks. It's no wonder that the Westminster elites become somewhat detached from the rank and file.

I'd love to see the revival of mass participation parties but I think that boat has sailed. I think we now have to make the most of what we have left which, in short, means we are left with some real rubbish at the helm and some real gems who don't get the limelight they deserve.
 
Curryman said:
We seem to have gone from friendly but firm politics to antagonistic politics, which can often be seen not only in the Commons but also on boards such as this.
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I think the fundamental problem is that Labour don't have anything to offer, no new ideas other than "lets spend even more money", which is a difficult case to make in light of the pandemic, thus all they can do is resort to personal attacks and smears in an effort to chase votes.

It's not very edifying.
 
My concern with the Labour party is that they stopped listening to many of their traditional supporters who in turn walked away from them. I feel that the Conservative party listens more to their supporters.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I think the fundamental problem is that Labour don't have anything to offer, no new ideas other than "lets spend even more money", which is a difficult case to make in light of the pandemic, thus all they can do is resort to personal attacks and smears in an effort to chase votes.

It's not very edifying.
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It's also not very true. Still, make up your own truths to support your cause.
 
Ruperthoop said:
My concern with the Labour party is that they stopped listening to many of their traditional supporters who in turn walked away from them. I feel that the Conservative party listens more to their supporters.
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A Conservative Government will always shaft ordinary people. It's their birthright...they would say, if forced to tell the truth.
 
We need politicians that are negotiators, we need cooperation politics.

What we need is a voting system that guarantees a coalition every time there's an election, and a broader group of parties formed by Labour and the Tories splitting into their natural halves.
 
I have no fondness for the conservative party . I just believe that at present they in part have more success just by listening to their supporters and attempting to address their needs and concerns.
 
I've posted it a million times on here I hate our two parties can only win system in this country where half the time depending where you live your vote is wasted.
So you end up with the same old shite so what a choice BJ or Jezza at the last election it's like choosing between Gonorrhoea or Syphilis.

Bring in PR so every vote counts can't come quick enough.
 
Curryman said:
Looking at the current situation we have, not just in this country, I find it hard to say I'm in favour of any party at the present time.

Why?

Quite simply, there has always been, at least, two sides to any Government and opposition, whoever was in power at the time was kept in its place by the opposition, but does this happen now?

We seem to have gone from friendly but firm politics to antagonistic politics, which can often be seen not only in the Commons but also on boards such as this.

The Conservatives: winning the last election by a landslide, I feel, has encouraged those from the right of the party to become more and more confident in their way of putting ideas across, ideas that are somewhat far-right and therefore unpalatable to a lot of those who voted for them at the last General Election. Could this be their downfall?

The Labour Party: lost the last election, I feel, due to their swing to the left, and therefore the fear of them gaining power. Since then through deliberation, arguments and in the end the crowning of a new leader, strangely a Sir and a public school man, who is further to the right than his predecessor they have started to move towards the middle of the stage, but there is still the threat of a far left-wing revolt, which could upset the voters, once again.

The Lib Dems: Where do they stand? I feel they made a terrible mistake when they threw their hat in with the Conservatives in the coalition government, a case of accepting fools gold and something that set them back a number of years, I still don't understand what it is they stand for.

The Greens: Still an up and coming party, particularly with the climate change problems and so on, but once again apart from saving the planet. what indeed do they stand for? They seem to always have two leaders, I don't understand why, and the antics of the protest groups who no doubt associate themselves with the party, I feel, drive a lot away who may just sympathise with some of their aims.

The old saying of don't scare the horses doesn't appear to apply to either of the main parties and maybe not the lesser parties, so, what is the answer?

Over to you.
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I couldn't agree more that all the parties have gone down the drain.

I couldn't disagree more with what you say about the Conservatives and moving to the right, with respect I think what you say is utter horsechite.

The way they have handled Covid, Boris is planting trees and they are pandering to minorities.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
I couldn't agree more that all the parties have gone down the drain.

I couldn't disagree more with what you say about the Conservatives and moving to the right, with respect I think what you say is utter horsechite.

The way they have handled Covid, Boris is planting trees and they are pandering to minorities.
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Its surely all about opinions, and horsechite or not they are my opinions. I quite honestly would not know who to vote for if there was an election looming. I once voted monster raving loony in order to vote and with there not being a non of the above box.

I understand that times have been difficult for the Govt with the COVID pandemic coming immediately on top of Brexit, and I wonder if any other party would have fared any better. However, I do still feel that both main parties are likely to move further apart before the nest GE, making a choice extremely difficult.
 
Curryman said:
Its surely all about opinions, and horsechite or not they are my opinions. I quite honestly would not know who to vote for if there was an election looming. I once voted monster raving loony in order to vote and with there not being a non of the above box.

I understand that times have been difficult for the Govt with the COVID pandemic coming immediately on top of Brexit, and I wonder if any other party would have fared any better. However, I do still feel that both main parties are likely to move further apart before the nest GE, making a choice extremely difficult.
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The first thing I will do is apologise for my "utter horsechite" comment.

I was not being overly serious but there was no need for it.

To be honest, I don't tend to vote at elections and Andy Higgins is the only person I've ever voted for at a General Election.

I think it's fair to say that generally my opinions are more aligned to Conservative policies than Labour but I wouldn't be rushing to vote for anybody should an election be called tomorrow.

I also agree with you in that the Government have not had it easy with Brexit and then Covid and I don't think any party would have fared any better.

The only thing I am still disagreeing on is the Conservative shift to the far right, there is no correct answer and my opinion is certainly no better than yours and I might be being a bit lazy but look at the way they dealt with the Covid handouts, yes they had to be quick and probably couldn't win but if a Labour Government had issued interest free - virtually - unsecured loans like confetti, I think it's fair to say that they'd have endured a lot more criticism.

I don't get the far right thing at all, I think perhaps the definition of far right may have changed.

I won't go too deep now and apologies again for my comments on my first response, you were only offering your opinion on things and did so in a fair manner.
 
The Reform Party came third in last week’s by election, ahead of the Lib Dems. So much for grinning buffoon Ed Ravey’s “ knocking down the blue wall” mantra.
 
Foolweary said:
...and a broader group of parties formed by Labour and the Tories splitting into their natural halves.
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Interesting. I believe you're correct about Labour having two strands of support but also in two dimensions. One is the obvious hard left vs social democratic construct. However, that is a fluid comparison as there are many voters who feel at ease picking and mixing policies and Party structural themes from across that continuum. In addition though, they have the almost impossible task of trying to appeal to both their 'heartland', working class but socially conservative support, and the more middle class, socially progressive types.

I seems to me that the Conservative Party - being more vague in its ideology - draws its appeal more pragmatically from across classes and differing geographical communities.

What is your understanding of these parties' 'natural two halves'?
 
the interesting thing for me reading this thread is that 66 accuses Lost of deflection tactics when it was Lost who made his point in the first place. 66 also then states what Lost says is not true whilst also making claims which could equally not be very true. 66 says he's just left of centre. I reckon he's much more left of centre than he cares to admit.
Right, back to the football forum.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Interesting. I believe you're correct about Labour having two strands of support but also in two dimensions. One is the obvious hard left vs social democratic construct. However, that is a fluid comparison as there are many voters who feel at ease picking and mixing policies and Party structural themes from across that continuum. In addition though, they have the almost impossible task of trying to appeal to both their 'heartland', working class but socially conservative support, and the more middle class, socially progressive types.

I seems to me that the Conservative Party - being more vague in its ideology - draws its appeal more pragmatically from across classes and differing geographical communities.

What is your understanding of these parties' 'natural two halves'?
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Labour have their new and old versions, working class labour and social democratic labour.

The 2 factions most obvious in the conservatives are the moderate one nation tories that thatcher called the wets and the UKIP nationalists.

A PR election with a party spread of

Greens
Old labour
New labour
Liberals
Wet Tories
UKIP tories

Would see the dead wood politicians redundant as an anachronism and election results forcing a coalition to cooperate, negotiate and act like well meaning citizens.
 
Starmer went to Reigate grammar school after passing the 11+ which became independent in his fourth year.
He was not privately educated .
So to call him “a public school man” is a little disingenuous.
 
If this current Government is a result of listening to their supporters and giving them what they want, then by Christ, I’m living shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of selfish, xenophobic, democracy hating right wing nut jobs.
 
20togo said:
the interesting thing for me reading this thread is that 66 accuses Lost of deflection tactics when it was Lost who made his point in the first place. 66 also then states what Lost says is not true whilst also making claims which could equally not be very true. 66 says he's just left of centre. I reckon he's much more left of centre than he cares to admit.
Right, back to the football forum.
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You seem to think being left of centre is something to be ashamed of? You use it as a slur quite a lot, it's a bit odd.
 
20togo said:
the interesting thing for me reading this thread is that 66 accuses Lost of deflection tactics when it was Lost who made his point in the first place. 66 also then states what Lost says is not true whilst also making claims which could equally not be very true. 66 says he's just left of centre. I reckon he's much more left of centre than he cares to admit.
Right, back to the football forum.
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And stay away from the music forum if Last Christmas is the best you can offer !!!!!!!!!!
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
You seem to think being left of centre is something to be ashamed of? You use it as a slur quite a lot, it's a bit odd.
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nope not at all, each to their own. Neither is it a slur. But some on here are imo much more further left than they let on.
 
Posters starting a sentence with a lower case letter. Loosing instead of losing, there instead of their or vice versa. I blame Socialism for all these grammatical errors.
 
Trammo said:
Posters starting a sentence with a lower case letter. Loosing instead of losing, there instead of their or vice versa. I blame Socialism for all these grammatical errors.
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I'm definitely not a loosing over losing person but having a new Chromebook as a laptop I find it nowhere as user friendly with regards to using capitals. Add in the fact that the keyboard is in lower case letters rather than capitals means i can often type the wrong key especially with "r" and "t" being next to each other and looking similar.
 
Ruperthoop said:
I have no fondness for the conservative party . I just believe that at present they in part have more success just by listening to their supporters and attempting to address their needs and concerns.
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Listened, got into Government and then ignored their promises. No doubt as the election gets nearer there will be a flurry of bribes for the electorate and some will fall for it.

If you're living in the North, just what have the Tories delivered since 2019? Absolutely nothing, going back on every election promise.
 
As somebody said earlier Starmer wasn't public school educated. The other point I would dispute is that the Conservative party have become more right wing. They do not appear to adhere to any political ideology in my opinion. The Conservatives in positions of power(not all Tories are bad) look after themselves, their friends and their financial benefactors while hiding behind the Union Flag.
They will always put the South East of England first and have little or no interest in the North apart from when they are blagging votes by posing with the Union Flag and making empty promises.
To summarise they are a bunch of sleazy chancers looking after Russian billionaires and old school chums, they put themselves first, sneer at voters especially the ones that voted for them and have nothing in common with decent old school Tories from the past.
 
Bottle said:
If this current Government is a result of listening to their supporters and giving them what they want, then by Christ, I’m living shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of selfish, xenophobic, democracy hating right wing nut jobs.
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I’m a little hurt by your opinion 🤣
 
gjr69 said:
As somebody said earlier Starmer wasn't public school educated. The other point I would dispute is that the Conservative party have become more right wing. They do not appear to adhere to any political ideology in my opinion. The Conservatives in positions of power(not all Tories are bad) look after themselves, their friends and their financial benefactors while hiding behind the Union Flag.
They will always put the South East of England first and have little or no interest in the North apart from when they are blagging votes by posing with the Union Flag and making empty promises.
To summarise they are a bunch of sleazy chancers looking after Russian billionaires and old school chums, they put themselves first, sneer at voters especially the ones that voted for them and have nothing in common with decent old school Tories from the past.
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What perplexes me is that people just shrug it off and still vote for them. Triumph of hope over expectation if you think they'll start doing anything for you and not them.
 
Wizaard said:
Listened, got into Government and then ignored their promises. No doubt as the election gets nearer there will be a flurry of bribes for the electorate and some will fall for it.

If you're living in the North, just what have the Tories delivered since 2019? Absolutely nothing, going back on every election promise.
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They have delivered one thing - the one thing that caused a lot of people in the North to vote for them.

There was also this other thing that arrived after 2019 that threw everything up in the air.
 
Kip said:
They have delivered one thing - the one thing that caused a lot of people in the North to vote for them.

There was also this other thing that arrived after 2019 that threw everything up in the air.
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So that means the South can continue to get additional infrastructure investment but the North can't?

And have they delivered on Brexit? All about having control of our borders and sovereignty? Record numbers of new migrants crossing the channel every day and this Government completely powerless to stop them. Failure to deliver anything.

No border in the Irish Sea, other than the border in the Irish Sea.

Completely failed the country in every aspect, including killing 150,000 of its citizens through a paralysis of thought or action in the early days of the pandemic.
 
Wizaard said:
So that means the South can continue to get additional infrastructure investment but the North can't?

And have they delivered on Brexit? All about having control of our borders and sovereignty? Record numbers of new migrants crossing the channel every day and this Government completely powerless to stop them. Failure to deliver anything.

No border in the Irish Sea, other than the border in the Irish Sea.

Completely failed the country in every aspect, including killing 150,000 of its citizens through a paralysis of thought or action in the early days of the pandemic.
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Way over the top with your sick comment about killing 150,000. 150,000 may have died. They certainly weren't killed. And your words proves once again prove it's all about political point scoring rather than the sad loss of human life.
 
Wizaard said:
So that means the South can continue to get additional infrastructure investment but the North can't?

And have they delivered on Brexit? All about having control of our borders and sovereignty? Record numbers of new migrants crossing the channel every day and this Government completely powerless to stop them. Failure to deliver anything.

No border in the Irish Sea, other than the border in the Irish Sea.

Completely failed the country in every aspect, including killing 150,000 of its citizens through a paralysis of thought or action in the early days of the pandemic.
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We have record numbers of illegal immigrants now because the route is closed for unlimited numbers of legal migrants from the EU. We've swapped 1 million* annual EU arrivals for 20k+ trying to cross the channel. There will always be illegal immigration and the numbers of 20k+ into a population of nearly 70m doesn't seem excessive. And, of course, we can choose whether to accept them or not which we couldn't with EU migration so we clearly have a greater level of control.

I'm not sure what you mean about the South getting additional infrastructure unless you're talking about the potential grant to TfL.

You're right about the border in the Irish Sea though - that can be improved upon which is what Frost is currently trying to do.

* I can't be arsed to look up the actual numbers but you get the drift.
 
Wizaard said:
What perplexes me is that people just shrug it off and still vote for them. Triumph of hope over expectation if you think they'll start doing anything for you and not them.
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They say they are the best of a bad lot, its just a throw away line to excuse them from thinking. There are also a lot of them that support blue or red like we support Blackpool, regardless of how inept or corrupt they are.
With first past the post electoral system and so many parties in the centre ground and the left the Tories don't even have to pretend to care or be anywhere near competent.
Sad situation the country finds itself in.
 
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Kurtan said:
Starmer went to Reigate grammar school after passing the 11+ which became independent in his fourth year.
He was not privately educated .
So to call him “a public school man” is a little disingenuous.
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Some on here will use any and every trick in order to hang Labour. Truth doesn't come into it. Still, I'm not their keeper so, as long as it keeps them happy.
 
20togo said:
the interesting thing for me reading this thread is that 66 accuses Lost of deflection tactics when it was Lost who made his point in the first place. 66 also then states what Lost says is not true whilst also making claims which could equally not be very true. 66 says he's just left of centre. I reckon he's much more left of centre than he cares to admit.
Right, back to the football forum.
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For what it's worth I responded to Curryman's OP with a generalistic take on the demise of mass participation political parties. I saw in Lost's post a familiar reductive reliance on Labour bashing when I didn't see any need to focus on policies: real or imagined.
 
To go back to the OP, what is undeniable right now is that the current government are a corrupt bunch of inept grandstanding, dog whistling chancers and the Labour party are so bereft of identity, direction or leadership that I challenge anyone to name a single policy of theirs, it's almost as if they're resigned to not winning an election while the SNP are doing well so and are constantly considering veering to the right to try and mop up some Tory votes. The SNP just potter around only having to throw in some independence and Braveheart rhetoric to keep ahead in the polls.

Meanwhile other parties valiantly plug along with some actual ideas but with no coverage from the media and no hope of ever gaining power under this electoral system.

None of the above thanks, the entire system is bollocks.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I'm sure that will be a massive consolation to the families. And it is not the first time you have chosen to ignore a serious opinion in your rush to be pedantic.
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i am not being pedantic at all. I think it was a pretty offensive description and I am entitled to say so. And it's that description that is political point scoring rather than any regard to consolation for the families.
 
Oh and one more thing, probably the biggest indictment of politics in this country, the media have won every election in this country for the last 50 years, especially the media of Rupert Murdoch, so to gain power parties need to court a narrow section of the press, not the electorate, which results in their main concern being the press and not the electorate.

Policies are not discussed along 'how will this help people?' concerns but 'how will this play with the media?'.

Meanwhile this government are currently looking forward to passing a bill through the HOL who's entire purpose is to open up the NHS to more commercial concerns while promising less care to the most vulnerable in society. This barely gets reported in the media, or if it does it's below another Johnson grandstanding meaningless policy of throwing money at drug problems while completely ignoring the root cause of most of the problems, which is poverty and lack of opportunity, which the past 50 years of policy have accelerated.

Fuck all of them 👍
 
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20togo said:
i am not being pedantic at all. I think it was a pretty offensive description and I am entitled to say so. And it's that description that is political point scoring rather than any regard to consolation for the families.
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Three reports have found that Boris Johnson's policies were responsible for thousands of additional and unnecessary deaths. You consistently though attack those who want to see him accountable for those deaths as political point scorers.
We also have your hypocrisy of not caring about whether Boris Johnson held Christmas parties last year and is now blatantly lying about it. Where is your compassion for the families who had to abandon loved ones to die alone while Government officials tucked into nibbles, knocked back the booze and played party games.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
For what it's worth I responded to Curryman's OP with a generalistic take on the demise of mass participation political parties. I saw in Lost's post a familiar reductive reliance on Labour bashing when I didn't see any need to focus on policies: real or imagined.
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The thing is that I think my post was accurate, and you've done nothing so far to disprove it, in fact if anyone's guilty of making stuff up your claim that "A Conservative Government will always shaft ordinary people" appears to be just that.

@Curryman's OP was about the shift to "antagonistic politics", I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of the insults and antagonism are going from (hard) left to right and not vice versa, it's not government ministers who are describing the opposition as "a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute pile of banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian, posh... piece of scum".

Why is that? I think that part of the problem is that Starmer appears to be struggling to find anything to stand on, so all that feeds through is the usual hard left nastiness towards anyone who disagrees with them, but if you have other ideas please feel free to share them.
 
20togo said:
i am not being pedantic at all. I think it was a pretty offensive description and I am entitled to say so. And it's that description that is political point scoring rather than any regard to consolation for the families.
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It's worth mentioning that our Covid deaths are middle of the pack compared to other nations, some way behind the USA, Portugal and Spain, further still behind Italy, and a long, long way behind some of the Eastern European states.

Given that we were badly hit in the first wave and have a lot of factors that make us especially vulnerable to the pandemic, if the government's response really was as bad as some want to pretend then the final death toll would have been much, much worse.
 
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