Scientific Data

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Godhelpus

Well-known member
This was on twitter and was sent to me in a link from Twitter. I have a feeling that it will be closed down as it has been on Youtube. it's 40 mins long.

I'll not comment on it too much as I know I'll get shot down but the doctors are right were is the science in what's going on. One of the arguments is why are we not isolating people that are sick and not the healthy? They also give figures of death rates between flu and this chinese virus.

I'll leave it open for discussion.https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/04/28/youtube-takes-down-video-of-california-doctors-who-argued-for-lifting-covid-19-restrictions/

Sorry I can't do links.
 
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I named a poster as I had changed my view on his plight I have said nothing that would upset him .He is not named in the article as it comes from America. I have not said he agrees with the views in the article as I would not think he has even seen it. A lot of posts name posters in the thread. I have no idea why you are behaving like this. Can you explain? I you to give me a reason why the post should be taken down. The piece is on the web for all to read so the mods have no reason to take it down.
 
I dont see what it has to do with Bennys tbh?

It appears to be an article from a right wing website complaining that 'leftist' controlled companies are censoring things.

I cannot with good grace say there is no truth to it but It certainly seems agenda driven.
 
Mods I would like the title of this post or the whole post removing please. To attack me regarding my anxiety about returning to work is out of order. Whether the numbers are correct or not is up for discussion but this post is a direct attack on my fears and is not right.
I am back at work and intend to continue working despite my fears.
 
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Bennys_was_a_mob said:
Mods I would like the title of this post or the whole post removing please. To attack me regarding my anxiety about returning to work is out of order. Whether the numbers are correct or not is up for discussion but this post is a direct attack on my fears and is not right.
I am back at work and intend to continue working despite my fears.
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Grow up
 
Godhelpus said:
I have a little sympathy with Benny now after seeing this.

It's on twitter and was sent to me in a link from Twitter. I have a feeling that it will be closed down as it has been on Youtube. it's 40 mins long.

I'll not comment on it too much as I know I'll get shot down but the doctors are right were is the science in what's going on. One of the arguments is why are we not isolating people that are sick and not the healthy? They also give figures of death rates between flu and this chinese virus.

I'll leave it open for discussion.https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/04/28/youtube-takes-down-video-of-california-doctors-who-argued-for-lifting-covid-19-restrictions/

Sorry I can't do links.
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You had no need to cite BennyWaM! 🤡

What's the video got to do with his situation?

Are you being forced back into work against your will?

I doubt it!

If you are who I think you are you're retired, sat safely at home whilst key workers like Benny are at work.
 
redstate is hardly an impartial site.

And I also fail to see what something on that site has to do with Benny's situation or why he is being judged so harshly. We are all different, we all think and feel in differing ways and if someone is anxious about the current situation then it is not up to others to judge them.
 
Bispham_Seasider said:
redstate is hardly an impartial site.

And I also fail to see what something on that site has to do with Benny's situation or why he is being judged so harshly. We are all different, we all think and feel in differing ways and if someone is anxious about the current situation then it is not up to others to judge them.
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Exactly, Bippyseadider.

As Benny is at BAES he must have been identified as one of their few key workers, and so the company are legally obliged to provide him with travel/work paperwork to justify him breaking the lockdown.

So does the OP expect him to simply 'do his duty' and not question his exposure to risk?

It's everybody's choice whether you applaud all key workers, just the NHS frontline staff, or ignore them.

But posters critisisng someone identified as a key worker who is concerned because he has underlying health issues asking for advice is simply appalling.
 
Godhelpus said:
I have a little sympathy with Benny now after seeing this.

It's on twitter and was sent to me in a link from Twitter. I have a feeling that it will be closed down as it has been on Youtube. it's 40 mins long.

I'll not comment on it too much as I know I'll get shot down but the doctors are right were is the science in what's going on. One of the arguments is why are we not isolating people that are sick and not the healthy? They also give figures of death rates between flu and this chinese virus.

I'll leave it open for discussion.https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/04/28/youtube-takes-down-video-of-california-doctors-who-argued-for-lifting-covid-19-restrictions/

Sorry I can't do links.
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The ** argument for isolating the healthy is that without constant testing there's no way if knowing if they're carrying it or not.

It ain't ** rocket science.
 
At Vauxhall’s when they return to work,they are looking at checking temperatures before they can go in.At BAe we have a green triangle in the car & arrows directing us once in the hangar so we can stay 2 meters apart.Wow.Got to to keep BAe share holders happy.Lets hope they don’t have blood on their hands.
 
It’s a really difficult one to advise on. The definition of vulnerable due to underlying health conditions really depends upon if you have that letter from your GP that gives you exemptions.
If not you aren’t classed as vulnerable enough then you have to do your bit.
Its contentious I agree, but nhs frontline workers are putting themselves out there using the same criteria ,as are all key workers.
That isn’t being dismissive of Bennys concerns at all, just pointing out the reality of the situation. It’s no different for public sector workers either.
I don’t think Benny should being singled out because of his anxiety though, and named and shamed for that in this op, but I don’t see a way around his issues other than to get a sick note and ride with those consequences if needs be. It is what it is and we are all placed in positions and choices we didn’t choose to be in.
 
Thornton61 said:
At Vauxhall’s when they return to work,they are looking at checking temperatures before they can go in.At BAe we have a green triangle in the car & arrows directing us once in the hangar so we can stay 2 meters apart.Wow.Got to to keep BAe share holders happy.Lets hope they don’t have blood on their hands.
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Dwp workers have neither of those luxuries and I’m not sure nhs workers do either. It’s an unprecedented crisis, if we all set the benchmark at ‘blood on their hands’ no one would be contributing at all and the nation would be effed on so many levels.
Let’s be as rational and realistic as we can and do what is reasonably expected of each of us, and not just expecting others to do and sacrifice what we aren’t prepared to do or sacrifice ourselves.
 
Lala said:
Dwp workers have neither of those luxuries and I’m not sure nhs workers do either. It’s an unprecedented crisis, if we all set the benchmark at ‘blood on their hands’ no one would be contributing at all and the nation would be effed on so many levels.
Let’s be as rational and realistic as we can and do what is reasonably expected of each of us, and not just expecting others to do and sacrifice what we aren’t prepared to do or sacrifice ourselves.
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I would'nt call temperature checking of employees a luxury, I'd call it a sensible precaution.

Maybe that is something the Unions should be pushing for.🙂

As for doing what's 'reasonable', that should be up to each individual based on their own circumstances, not the OP (retired).
 
Don_K_Lasher said:
I would'nt call temperature checking of employees a luxury, I'd call it a sensible precaution.

Maybe that is something the Unions should be pushing for.🙂

As for doing what's 'reasonable', that should be up to each individual based on their own circumstances, not the OP (retired).
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It isn’t up to the individual to decide if they want to go into work though is it? Maybe on an personal level, yes, but legally that means calling in sick and going down the normal procedures that are involved when you take that route.
If you are suggesting otherwise then there wouldn’t be a key worker showing up tomorrow because if left to choice alone no one would go into work. Are you suggesting everyone has a choice, including key workers? If so where do we go from there ?
 
This is a massive issue that isn’t going to be easy to sort by any union or other body

Put simply if we don’t get back to work at some point there won’t be any work to go to

Realise people have concerns but we can’t lockdown forever
 
It is entirely right to discuss this, it is the biggest challenge facing us as a country for the next 12 months. However, it is totally unreasonable to make this about any single poster and their circumstances.

Lockdown lite that we have had for 6 weeks was the correct thing to do to get on top of the virus, but we cannot do it indefinitely. Likewise, we cannot expect some people to work and excuse ourselves. It is up to us and our businesses and organisations to come up with safe ways of working, and crack on with it, all the while letting the boffins keep a very close eye on the R value. We may need to lockdown specific areas if it starts to grow, maybe regional data is better placed to square the circle. Personally, despite being in a category that Raging put on another thread should stay at home (I'm only 60 ffs) I want to get back to work and get on with the challenge of getting our shop open safely. Restrictions will have to stay in place until and if we get an effective vaccine, but to support the NHS and all those vulnerable, we have to get the economy running.
 
Lala said:
It isn’t up to the individual to decide if they want to go into work though is it? Maybe on an personal level, yes, but legally that means calling in sick and going down the normal procedures that are involved when you take that route.
If you are suggesting otherwise then there wouldn’t be a key worker showing up tomorrow because if left to choice alone no one would go into work. Are you suggesting everyone has a choice, including key workers? If so where do we go from there ?
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That's bollocks I'm afraid, I can only speak about the NHS key workers but none I know are in it for themselves. I assume it's the same in many areas.
 
Angloitalian said:
This is a massive issue that isn’t going to be easy to sort by any union or other body

Put simply if we don’t get back to work at some point there won’t be any work to go to

Realise people have concerns but we can’t lockdown forever
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Given that people can unilaterally call for self isolation, in these unprecedented times, the normal sick rules don't apply.
 
Bennys_was_a_mob said:
Mods I would like the title of this post or the whole post removing please. To attack me regarding my anxiety about returning to work is out of order. Whether the numbers are correct or not is up for discussion but this post is a direct attack on my fears and is not right.
I am back at work and intend to continue working despite my fears.
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I was trying to support you!!!!!!!!!
 
Tangerinemoss said:
It is entirely right to discuss this, it is the biggest challenge facing us as a country for the next 12 months. However, it is totally unreasonable to make this about any single poster and their circumstances.

Lockdown lite that we have had for 6 weeks was the correct thing to do to get on top of the virus, but we cannot do it indefinitely. Likewise, we cannot expect some people to work and excuse ourselves. It is up to us and our businesses and organisations to come up with safe ways of working, and crack on with it, all the while letting the boffins keep a very close eye on the R value. We may need to lockdown specific areas if it starts to grow, maybe regional data is better placed to square the circle. Personally, despite being in a category that Raging put on another thread should stay at home (I'm only 60 ffs) I want to get back to work and get on with the challenge of getting our shop open safely. Restrictions will have to stay in place until and if we get an effective vaccine, but to support the NHS and all those vulnerable, we have to get the economy running.
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I was supporting the poster by posting the article. I think some posters have listened to the artical upside down.
 
deary said:
I dont see what it has to do with Bennys tbh?

It appears to be an article from a right wing website complaining that 'leftist' controlled companies are censoring things.

I cannot with good grace say there is no truth to it but It certainly seems agenda driven.
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Benny made a post yesterday that I commented on I changed my mind and was supporting him after reading the article.
 
The only scientific advice and comments I have seen have been from the government. I was showing a different point of view from independent scientists . That's democracy. Not that I find democracy welcoming by some people.
 
Lala said:
It isn’t up to the individual to decide if they want to go into work though is it? Maybe on an personal level, yes, but legally that means calling in sick and going down the normal procedures that are involved when you take that route.
If you are suggesting otherwise then there wouldn’t be a key worker showing up tomorrow because if left to choice alone no one would go into work. Are you suggesting everyone has a choice, including key workers? If so where do we go from there ?
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I certainly am stating that Lala. 🙂

During the lockdown it is upto the individual to decide whether the criteria for being asked to break the lockdown have been met. 🙂

If the 'key' worker doesn't think that the company has taken sufficient precautions the prevent putting them at risk, or they are at risk due to their age or health, or that they are not undertaking 'key' work, then they have a right and an obligation to challenge their predicament.

Just as the NHS staff did over PPE.

Health and safety rules, laws and employers' obligations are no different during lockdown, in fact they should be applied more stringently if the infection rate is to be reduced.

I'm currently sat in an office, we have about 20% of our team who have not been asked to come in because they asthmatic and one who's BMI is through the roof who was sent home.

We are all working on 'key' critical work. All other teams on lower priority tasks or who have health issues have not been recalled.

And that's the way it should be 👍🏻
 
Don_K_Lasher said:
I certainly am stating that Lala. 🙂

During the lockdown it is upto the individual to decide whether the criteria for being asked to break the lockdown have been met. 🙂

If the 'key' worker doesn't think that the company has taken sufficient precautions the prevent putting them at risk, or they are at risk due to their age or health, or that they are not undertaking 'key' work, then they have a right and an obligation to challenge their predicament.

Just as the NHS staff did over PPE.

Health and safety rules, laws and employers' obligations are no different during lockdown, in fact they should be applied more stringently if the infection rate is to be reduced.

I'm currently sat in an office, we have about 20% of our team who have not been asked to come in because they asthmatic and one who's BMI is through the roof who was sent home.

We are all working on 'key' critical work. All other teams on lower priority tasks or who have health issues have not been recalled.

And that's the way it should be 👍🏻
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We have many not working too but it hasn't been a personal choice at all, you have to have specific underlying health conditions that class you as vulnerable. If you do then yes you don't have to go into work,but if you aren't classed as vulnerable you definitely don't have a choice where I am, simple as that.
And you don't decide if you're vulnerable, because in one respect we all are, your condition will determine that.
That said I'd go in even with the choice not to. Why would I not want to do my bit.
 
Lala said:
We have many not working too but it hasn't been a personal choice at all, you have to have specific underlying health conditions that class you as vulnerable. If you do then yes you don't have to go into work,but if you aren't classed as vulnerable you definitely don't have a choice where I am, simple as that.
And you don't decide if you're vulnerable, because in one respect we all are, your condition will determine that.
That said I'd go in even with the choice not to. Why would I not want to do my bit.
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Looks like you've already considered all the criterion I listed and made your own personal choice.
 
Where I work,if Im not happy about health and safety, I stop work till it gets sorted. Usually common sense prevails. But I would contact H&S and Union to get on board,while they are on the case use common sense or if still not happy take 2 more weeks off.
 
Don_K_Lasher said:
Looks like you've already considered all the criterion I listed and made your own personal choice.
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I really don't believe I have a choice at all.
But if I did I'd choose the status quo for me anyway so maybe that's why I'm not looking for reasons not to go into work.
 
Godhelpus said:
Benny made a post yesterday that I commented on I changed my mind and was supporting him after reading the article.
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Ok 👍 its good imo that you changed the title as i think many thought it was bad form & was misconstrued.
The 'science' if you can call it that of what those docs are saying is up for debate & thats fair enough.

I tend to think the docs are looking at it more perhaps from a business perspective rather than a healthcare one.
(It is costing them money because of how American health care works).

i understand that the figures in a large Country like US are widely different from state to state so that is a fair point though. I am quite surprised that California has not been hit worse. Maybe the warmer weather & more folks being outdoors has curbed it?

Perhaps some places got a weaker strain of the virus its really too early to say?
 
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Having seen extracts of Dr Erickson’s presentation I think he is on the right lines but he has extrapolated test numbers across whole populations which is a flaw, because testing won’t have been random.

Also I think there is a big picture to consider about rights. It is being discussed as if it’s accepted that people may or may not have the right to go to work or not. Should anyone or any govt have the right to take that choice away from any (innocent) individual though?
 
dodgykeeper said:
Having seen extracts of Dr Erickson’s presentation I think he is on the right lines but he has extrapolated test numbers across whole populations which is a flaw, because testing won’t have been random.

Also I think there is a big picture to consider about rights. It is being discussed as if it’s accepted that people may or may not have the right to go to work or not. Should anyone or any govt have the right to take that choice away from any (innocent) individual though?
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What’s the alternative Dodge ? We have to try to come through this and yes there are risks but if these risks are mitigated as much as possible it’s in everyone’s interest to move forward

If as an individual a person doesn’t feel able to do this they can’t expect to continue on furlough indefinitely
 
You’re right about furloughing, there is a contract between employer and employee and the employee should always have the right to leave, difficult as that may be.

I was thinking more about govts stopping people exercising basic rights like going outside, opening their business, going to work if they and their employers want to. Should govts be able to do that at all? Should people have to accept that they can?
 
Lala said:
It isn’t up to the individual to decide if they want to go into work though is it? Maybe on an personal level, yes, but legally that means calling in sick and going down the normal procedures that are involved when you take that route.
If you are suggesting otherwise then there wouldn’t be a key worker showing up tomorrow because if left to choice alone no one would go into work. Are you suggesting everyone has a choice, including key workers? If so where do we go from there ?
[/QUO
Lala said:
I really don't believe I have a choice at all.
But if I did I'd choose the status quo for me anyway so maybe that's why I'm not looking for reasons not to go into work.
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You have a choice whether to sell your labour or not. Your circumstances may determine what you chose to do.
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The govt took that choice away from people recently though Loco, they got involved in the agreement between employee and employer and took that right to choose, which was there before. How do govts have the power to take that right from people and stop us living our lives freely?
 
dodgykeeper said:
The govt took that choice away from people recently though Loco, they got involved in the agreement between employee and employer and took that right to choose, which was there before. How do govts have the power to take that right from people and stop us living our lives freely?
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You can still choose, as Loco states, but you just won’t get paid if you don’t work and won’t get hand outs if you specifically choose not too. Which is fair enough really.
Neither are options I consider for myself, as personally I need an income to provide myself with the basics. If anyone has a different plan it would be interesting to hear it 😏
 
dodgykeeper said:
Yes, only in some cases though Lala. Some aren’t allowed to choose to go to work at the moment.
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That’s true, but they should get paid or financially supported by the government I assume. It’s a difficult situation and a different situation for each and every one of us I guess.
Though a short term adjustment hopefully for most.
 
You can see why the govt have raided the magic money tree, it will appease most people in the short term. Most will stay compliant but as we are used to life being as it was, there will be an assumption that it is going back there. I don’t think so, and many will be hit very hard by the changes. Some of those changes will be because people were banned from opening their businesses or working.

Some will know right now that their business won’t survive because of this but could have kept it going by exercising their working choice, with reduced custom. If we all rely on each other for the economy then all businesses are essential. Certainly they are essential for those earning a living from them.

Longer term, I wonder if the 24 hr news channels will have daily lockdown affected cases and lockdown related death tolls on screen all the time. ☹
 
dodgykeeper said:
You can see why the govt have raided the magic money tree, it will appease most people in the short term. Most will stay compliant but as we are used to life being as it was, there will be an assumption that it is going back there. I don’t think so, and many will be hit very hard by the changes. Some of those changes will be because people were banned from opening their businesses or working.

Some will know right now that their business won’t survive because of this but could have kept it going by exercising their working choice, with reduced custom. If we all rely on each other for the economy then all businesses are essential. Certainly they are essential for those earning a living from them.

Longer term, I wonder if the 24 hr news channels will have daily lockdown affected cases and lockdown related death tolls on screen all the time. ☹
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I’m not denying it’s a complete nightmare, it is.
 
As we get further and further into this situation and start to learn more about the virus itself, it seems that we are finding that more people than expected have had the virus and therefore it is less deadly than we had initially expected. Obviously people ar living in fear, but I'm afraid we can't just hide away with our knees knocking forever and we will need to get a grip and get on with living. The blokes in the O/P video seem to be agenda driven and their Maths is pretty sketchy to say the least, but they are right that we need to start getting on with life.

If people have reasons why they are unable to work, in much the same way as any other illness or disability, then hopefully they will be able to gain access to appropriate benefits, but employers certainly can't be expected to support individuals who are unable to work indefinitely (regardless of the reasons). At the same time a working environment needs to be 'safe' within reason.
 
dodgykeeper said:
You can see why the govt have raided the magic money tree, it will appease most people in the short term. Most will stay compliant but as we are used to life being as it was, there will be an assumption that it is going back there. I don’t think so, and many will be hit very hard by the changes. Some of those changes will be because people were banned from opening their businesses or working.

Some will know right now that their business won’t survive because of this but could have kept it going by exercising their working choice, with reduced custom. If we all rely on each other for the economy then all businesses are essential. Certainly they are essential for those earning a living from them.

Longer term, I wonder if the 24 hr news channels will have daily lockdown affected cases and lockdown related death tolls on screen all the time. ☹
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What magic money tree its been borrowed will have to be paid back and will put us into debt for years we could end up with millions on benefits with a country on it's knees.
 
dodgykeeper said:
You can see why the govt have raided the magic money tree, it will appease most people in the short term. Most will stay compliant but as we are used to life being as it was, there will be an assumption that it is going back there. I don’t think so, and many will be hit very hard by the changes. Some of those changes will be because people were banned from opening their businesses or working.

Some will know right now that their business won’t survive because of this but could have kept it going by exercising their working choice, with reduced custom. If we all rely on each other for the economy then all businesses are essential. Certainly they are essential for those earning a living from them.

Longer term, I wonder if the 24 hr news channels will have daily lockdown affected cases and lockdown related death tolls on screen all the time. ☹
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You seem very blasé about the possibility of major extra loss of life that could have resulted from doing nothing.
 
basilrobbie said:
You seem very blasé about the possibility of major extra loss of life that could have resulted from doing nothing.
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Robbie, the ‘possible’ loss of life is really just a computer modelled theory. With the availability of real life ‘actual’ information we ought to be changing policy to reflect reality vs ‘computer generated’ theory.

Also, it seems that many very well respected epidemiologists are essentially agreeing that you can’t stop the virus and therefore the eventual outcome is inevitable. Of course, we can delay until we manage to rush through a vaccine (the long term effect of which will be unknown), but then you might also question the validity of widespread immunisation, with potential risks, if as it now seems, the mortality rate of the virus is much lower than previously thought.

As a society we really must move on with this “guilt tripping” of people who want to simply enjoy reasonable human freedoms without quaking in their boots. The way in which people are responding due to fear is far more dangerous than the virus. Lack of close human contact, group association, freedom of movement, freedom to make a living... These things are far more dangerous and nobody has a right to deny these things to people....
 
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