Simon, you need a bigger ground

hertfordseasider said:
I think some of you are very set in your ways and not looking at the bigger picture. There has to be a minimum capacity of 20,000, SS has ambition, the manager has ambition as do the players. Why poo poo an increase in seats? 18,000? Really? Come on. At home the numbers rise this season and next seasons ST sales will be far higher than this. We need to be able to give away supporters 4000 seats if needed and proper facilities.

20,000 minimum for the future of our club but no more than 25,000

Our motto is Progress
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I spent most of my life watching Blackpool wondering if we would ever break the 10000 mark for a crowd, that was including away fans. 20000 would be perfect with 4000 for away fans.
 
Bob Hatton said:
We need a minimum of 20k to allow for away support and segregation. As much as I hate them, giving the knobbers such poor numbers of tickets with such crap facilities reflects badly on us as a club. We need to get a decent East built as we will need it when back in the Prem. It will take a while to complete and will lower our capacity whilst it's being built so we need to start as soon as this season ends. Let's go for a two tier stand with away supporters tucked away at the back like Newcastle do.
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Its Oyston that has to take the blame for the shit facilities ,he did what he had to do the bare minimum and it shows .We are a differnet club now and things will get done differently and correctly.
 
Matesrates said:
1970 to 1986 average 20,472 - highest 30,705
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I started going to Bloomfield on a regular basis in 1976 and there were several 20K+ attendances that season. Bolton and Wolves are two that spring to mind and they both brought huge away followings filling their side of the Kop. However, that was in an era when most fans stood up to watch the game and I don't understand the logic of handing out large number of tickets to away fans.

The East Stand development will take some time and I would rather money be spent on establishing our place in the Championship. One thing is for sure and that it's a great time to be a Blackpool fan with everyone pulling in the same direction.
 
Seainsea said:
I started going to Bloomfield on a regular basis in 1976 and there were several 20K+ attendances that season. Bolton and Wolves are two that spring to mind and they both brought huge away followings filling their side of the Kop. However, that was in an era when most fans stood up to watch the game and I don't understand the logic of handing out large number of tickets to away fans.

The East Stand development will take some time and I would rather money be spent on establishing our place in the Championship. One thing is for sure and that it's a great time to be a Blackpool fan with everyone pulling in the same direction.
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Couldn’t agree m with everything you say.
 
gjr69 said:
I spent most of my life watching Blackpool wondering if we would ever break the 10000 mark for a crowd, that was including away fans. 20000 would be perfect with 4000 for away fans.
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You didn't go in the 70s then? I remember having 25k against Bolton in a league game in an era of lower attendances. The only reason we always had less than 10k was that the capacity was less than 10k under the Oystons.

Currently crowds are down because of covid but that will pass and we need to build for the future. 20k is the absolute minimum. I'd like 25k but that's going to take either a massive East stand or additional tiers on the North & West and that's unlikely to happen. A redeveloped East plus North/East might get us near 20k but we still seem to be at the mercy of ridiculous segregation standards at BR that don't appear elsewhere.
 
Surely we can build facilities under the ground level - basement level on a new east stand?
This should in a bowl give us around 18-20k capacity.
If the Prem ever comes and us sustained we could always go second tier on the North as there’s plenty of space behind to double decker it if needed.
 
Middxile said:
Although expensive, the title ( above) has probably already dawned on him. At the moment, all Pool can do is cut the East in two, giving a mere 2.25k to their visitors. Most of the Championship sides will bring more than that. If the East were constructed in line with the rest of the ground, that offer would add more than 1k for the visitors, and another 4k capacity to the home support, assuming that the NE corner was included in any construction.
Allowing for segregation, an 18k total would be the result, with about 14,7k available to home fans. Support will build as this term if the team continues to progress.
It might be worth an offer to buy about 15 yards worth of back garden from each of the residents on Central Drive. Maybe the Council will help. Many away supporters come for the weekend, so everybody benefits.
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What part of Central Drive has any connection to ground which is probably about 100 yards away and across Henry St too.
 
The fact is, we are going to have good times and bad. It’s another fact that in the bad times we lose a high number of fans. Further, even in the good times, we have fans who will only turn up for big games.

I would rather see SS spend his money wisely on the team and general club infrastructure. There is absolutely no need for anything over 20k.

Consider this scenario with say a 20k capacity stadium - we have a downturn in form and end up back in Div 1, where many clubs can’t muster even 1k away fans. Just to get the ground half full, we’d need 9k home fans, which on past history is highly unlikely. Would we want 10k empty seats and the club only opening 2 stands?

Based on current ST numbers, aiming for 16k regular home fans is a strong ambition, leaving 4K for visiting fans.
 
Kip said:
You didn't go in the 70s then? I remember having 25k against Bolton in a league game in an era of lower attendances. The only reason we always had less than 10k was that the capacity was less than 10k under the Oystons.

Currently crowds are down because of covid but that will pass and we need to build for the future. 20k is the absolute minimum. I'd like 25k but that's going to take either a massive East stand or additional tiers on the North & West and that's unlikely to happen. A redeveloped East plus North/East might get us near 20k but we still seem to be at the mercy of ridiculous segregation standards at BR that don't appear elsewhere.
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I did but I was very young, I have a vague memory of some big crowds against Stoke and Sunderland.
I was 11 in 1980 so this is the period I refer to.
The segregation is the problem, more volatile games than we ever get involved in have less seats netted off.
Lancashire police over react and mismanage which is causing us a problem.
20000 capacity with better policing and stewarding would be perfect, keep the intense atmosphere.
For any short visits to the Premier league, because it isn't our natural home, the TV money is the thing, another 5000 seats isn't that big a deal.
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
The fact is, we are going to have good times and bad. It’s another fact that in the bad times we lose a high number of fans. Further, even in the good times, we have fans who will only turn up for big games.

I would rather see SS spend his money wisely on the team and general club infrastructure. There is absolutely no need for anything over 20k.

Consider this scenario with say a 20k capacity stadium - we have a downturn in form and end up back in Div 1, where many clubs can’t muster even 1k away fans. Just to get the ground half full, we’d need 9k home fans, which on past history is highly unlikely. Would we want 10k empty seats and the club only opening 2 stands?

Based on current ST numbers, aiming for 16k regular home fans is a strong ambition, leaving 4K for visiting fans.
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We’re never going back to L1
 
Kip said:
You didn't go in the 70s then? I remember having 25k against Bolton in a league game in an era of lower attendances. The only reason we always had less than 10k was that the capacity was less than 10k under the Oystons.

Currently crowds are down because of covid but that will pass and we need to build for the future. 20k is the absolute minimum. I'd like 25k but that's going to take either a massive East stand or additional tiers on the North & West and that's unlikely to happen. A redeveloped East plus North/East might get us near 20k but we still seem to be at the mercy of ridiculous segregation standards at BR that don't appear elsewhere.
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Bolton had half the gate that day. If not more.

I think the economics of success would say that as you progress up the league gate money becomes less important as a % of turnover. So the argument would be that it's wiser to spend money getting up the league and using money from that for ground expansion rather than hamper on field progress with ground development.
 
Charliecleanstonysheens said:
Even in the '70s when we had a great team and were on the brink of 1st division football, from memory, our crowds were around 13,500 ( I'm open to correction)
I think that if we develop the East stand in keeping with the rest of the ground, and fill in the North East corner, that will be enough
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When watching Green, Suddick and Hutchison in the first division regular crowds were 12/13 thousand,but we still got 30 thousand against the big sides.
I see no reason why we can't do it now.
We are building something special here, do not under estimate the potential.
 
fcblackpool said:
Bolton had half the gate that day. If not more.

I think the economics of success would say that as you progress up the league gate money becomes less important as a % of turnover. So the argument would be that it's wiser to spend money getting up the league and using money from that for ground expansion rather than hamper on field progress with ground development.
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The other side of that though is that as you inevitably get lower - which will happen unless we're planning for permanent success - then the fanbase you build up in the good times gives you an advantage over your opponents on the way down . We all know Sunderland will go up either this year or next and that's not based whether they were any good in the 1930s but because they get 25k every week.

The next time we dip into into L1 - which we will - I'd like to think we'd be getting crowds 15k+ and we can only do that by getting 20k+ in the good times. It's no different to what clubs like Charlton and Ipswich - and even Bolton - have now.
 
Kip said:
The other side of that though is that as you inevitably get lower - which will happen unless we're planning for permanent success - then the fanbase you build up in the good times gives you an advantage over your opponents on the way down . We all know Sunderland will go up either this year or next and that's not based whether they were any good in the 1930s but because they get 25k every week.

The next time we dip into into L1 - which we will - I'd like to think we'd be getting crowds 15k+ and we can only do that by getting 20k+ in the good times. It's no different to what clubs like Charlton and Ipswich - and even Bolton - have now.
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I can see that, but they have their stadiums now and with many clubs they've had financial struggles, possibly in part as a result. We are not with that luxury, so for us the notion of build and they will come is a trade off with spending on the pitch. Not withstanding the fact we are owned by one man and are subject to changes in his circumstances.

Also, with respect, not a cat in hell's chance we'll get 15K in L1, ever.
 
gjr69 said:
I did but I was very young, I have a vague memory of some big crowds against Stoke and Sunderland.
I was 11 in 1980 so this is the period I refer to.
The segregation is the problem, more volatile games than we ever get involved in have less seats netted off.
Lancashire police over react and mismanage which is causing us a problem.
20000 capacity with better policing and stewarding would be perfect, keep the intense atmosphere.
For any short visits to the Premier league, because it isn't our natural home, the TV money is the thing, another 5000 seats isn't that big a deal.
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When you say Prem league is not our natural home, how much smaller are we than Burnley who have a far smaller catchment?
They are a well run club which allows them to compete in the Prem
Watford, Brentford are not historically bigger clubs and Bournemouth may well get back to the big time.
I heard rumours of thousands of people on a season ticket waiting list when we briefly flirted with the Prem.
We could survive in the Prem if we continue to invest wisely on players, and I would hate for potential fans not to have the opportunity to attend matches.
Also by the laws of supply and demand will season ticket prices in the Prem be out of reach for many existing fans if we got there?
 
TAM, can't believe you would be happy with a 18k capacity??

20k min (preferably 22-24k) with capacity for 3-4k away fans.

The infrastructure behind the East is essential to any development, to avoid current issues between opposing fans
 
Why would you want to milk away supporters? Would it not be better to try and drive prices down for all away supporters? Or would you be happy paying 30-35 quid at every away match
 
tangysider said:
When you say Prem league is not our natural home, how much smaller are we than Burnley who have a far smaller catchment?
They are a well run club which allows them to compete in the Prem
Watford, Brentford are not historically bigger clubs and Bournemouth may well get back to the big time.
I heard rumours of thousands of people on a season ticket waiting list when we briefly flirted with the Prem.
We could survive in the Prem if we continue to invest wisely on players, and I would hate for potential fans not to have the opportunity to attend matches.
Also by the laws of supply and demand will season ticket prices in the Prem be out of reach for many existing fans if we got there?
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It's not Burnleys natural home either. There are certain teams you expect to see there and will probably always be there. Teams that have been out of it that you expect to have extended stays in it are Leeds, Villa and Wolves.
Then there are the likes of Fulham, WBA and Norwich that are continually bouncing around the top two divisions.
History tells us it isn't our natural home, nothing wrong with that, most clubs are in that category. We could get up there and with good management we could have a lengthy stay like Burnley but just like them ultimately we would be relegated, that will not happen to the teams that you expect to be there because it is their natural place in the football pyramid.
But things can change!!
 
Our capacity is ok for us in general but looks bad when you cancel out around 2,500 for segregation and christ knows why like leaving four empty rows on our side of the east and two full blocks covered up its totally unnecessary.
 
Charliecleanstonysheens said:
Even in the '70s when we had a great team and were on the brink of 1st division football, from memory, our crowds were around 13,500 ( I'm open to correction)
I think that if we develop the East stand in keeping with the rest of the ground, and fill in the North East corner, that will be enough
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I think you are thinking of that Walsh / Hatton season of 76 / 77 when we missed out on promotion by 1pt under Allan Brown.
Our highest home gate that season was over 23k against Bolton on New Years Eve. We had 2 gates above 20k that season, 4 gates between 15k and 20k, 8 gates between 10k and 15k and 7 gates below 10k. Our biggest away attendance was at Chelsea (who got promoted) was 27k.

In terms of BR then about 20k sounds about right to accommodate some more home and away fans with better facilities and access. It would also mean we could maintain an atmosphere with a stadium nearly full.
If we were a near permanent feature iin the PL, which we are very unlikely to be, then it is likely that we would look to build elsewhere for wider commercial use and benefits, as the land and infrastructure around BR just doesn't allow that.
 
Bpoolrover said:
Why would you want to milk away supporters? Would it not be better to try and drive prices down for all away supporters? Or would you be happy paying 30-35 quid at every away match
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Unfortunately it’s not about the individual fan and their trip out though is it. It’s about the club existing and thriving and making the most of their potential revenue streams. Paying £20 or £25 a ticket I’m going to whatever city I’m going to to see the next game I can. But that club charging a fiver extra can mean an extra £10k on the balance sheet and that over the course of a season is the best park of £250k which even in the championship could be the difference between signing a key player or not or making infrastructure improvements or not.
 
Chunkylad said:
Surely we can build facilities under the ground level - basement level on a new east stand?
This should in a bowl give us around 18-20k capacity.
If the Prem ever comes and us sustained we could always go second tier on the North as there’s plenty of space behind to double decker it if needed.
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Would cost a fortune carrying out that sort of ground work on that scale. Whilst it’s an option it likely wouldn’t be an efficient use of money to build something so complex in order to shoehorn in an extra 500 or so seats than what a ground level concourse would allow.
 
Would like to see the North extended/made bigger.
Surely that's possible with the building technology etc nowadays?
There's room at the back to make the concourses bigger too.
 
bfcpete said:
I think you are thinking of that Walsh / Hatton season of 76 / 77 when we missed out on promotion by 1pt under Allan Brown.
Our highest home gate that season was over 23k against Bolton on New Years Eve. We had 2 gates above 20k that season, 4 gates between 15k and 20k, 8 gates between 10k and 15k and 7 gates below 10k. Our biggest away attendance was at Chelsea (who got promoted) was 27k.

In terms of BR then about 20k sounds about right to accommodate some more home and away fans with better facilities and access. It would also mean we could maintain an atmosphere with a stadium nearly full.
If we were a near permanent feature iin the PL, which we are very unlikely to be, then it is likely that we would look to build elsewhere for wider commercial use and benefits, as the land and infrastructure around BR just doesn't allow that.
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Those figures are true but times have changed & we as a club are in the best place we've ever been. Get a community based training ground up & running, players visiting all schools across the Fylde why not aim for 15k minimum season ticket holders. The PL are pricing average fans out of the match day experience why not get younger fans bouncing at Bloomfield Road. Forget old stats the future is SS & NC 🤜🍊⚽UTMP
 
fcblackpool said:
I can see that, but they have their stadiums now and with many clubs they've had financial struggles, possibly in part as a result. We are not with that luxury, so for us the notion of build and they will come is a trade off with spending on the pitch. Not withstanding the fact we are owned by one man and are subject to changes in his circumstances.

Also, with respect, not a cat in hell's chance we'll get 15K in L1, ever.
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We were averaging over 14k in the Championship in our last stint - and that wasn't the season directly after the PL - so its not a huge leap from there especially with a redeveloped stadium.

It's pretty basic planning really. If you think we'll always be like we were in the 80s then we always will be but if you plan for success and achieve it then the benefits will naturally follow. Literally dozens of clubs have been down this path and there's no reason to think Blackpool would be the exception.
 
Kip said:
We were averaging over 14k in the Championship in our last stint - and that wasn't the season directly after the PL - so its not a huge leap from there especially with a redeveloped stadium.

It's pretty basic planning really. If you think we'll always be like we were in the 80s then we always will be but if you plan for success and achieve it then the benefits will naturally follow. Literally dozens of clubs have been down this path and there's no reason to think Blackpool would be the exception.
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All good if you can have both- stadium investment and on pitch investment, bearing in mind the latter has to justify the former. Can a one man band deliver both? Maybe one funds the other is my view.
 
SeasideMac said:
Would like to see the North extended/made bigger.
Surely that's possible with the building technology etc nowadays?
There's room at the back to make the concourses bigger too.
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Have a look at how they expanded the Grolsche Veste (FC Twente) - that’s exactly how they could expand the North stand - it’s essentially just building a freestanding structure at the rear of the existing stands. Charlton did something similar at the Valley in the 90’s / 00’s. They could build a second tier or just keep it a single tier stand. Personally I think a single tier would be better and would keep the ‘Kop’ character.
 
Looking at historic attendance figures is a largely pointless way to model future attendances. Blackpool and it’s population doesn’t have the same demographics as it did in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. The days of families moving en masse from the big cities are long gone. A much higher proportion of Blackpool residents are now Blackpool born and bred and that’s a trend which will increase. You’ve got to treat the kids like 2nd and 3rd generation migrants. The kids may have Mancunian or Glaswegian heritage but they’re Blackpool born and bred. Get the Blackpool born kids supporting Blackpool and we’ll see larger attendances than we have done previously.
 
LA1 Seasider said:
Have a look at how they expanded the Grolsche Veste (FC Twente) - that’s exactly how they could expand the North stand - it’s essentially just building a freestanding structure at the rear of the existing stands. Charlton did something similar at the Valley in the 90’s / 00’s. They could build a second tier or just keep it a single tier stand. Personally I think a single tier would be better and would keep the ‘Kop’ character.
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Jeez - I wouldn't take that as an example of how to extend.

sports.yahoo.com

Pictures: Twente’s stadium roof collapses during construction

The roof of Dutch Cup winners FC Twente's De Grolsch Veste ("The Grolsch Fortress") stadium partially collapsed during work to expand seating capacity, leaving one person dead and 15 others injured. Two support beams collapsed for unknown reasons as workers … <a...
sports.yahoo.com sports.yahoo.com
 
I'd be happy with a similar stand to the west with basic concourses and seats as high up as they'll go without the need for corporate facilities. That should put us at or close to 20k. (Would love a classy looking thing like Monaco have, pillars, some grandiose architectural flair, but seems unlikely)

When this will happen is down to a lot of factors we're not made privy to. Best thing we can do is keep filling the ground, invite friends, drag along family to show the owners the potential.
 
CalderwoodCritchleyWon’t said:
We’ve compulsory purchased houses on Henry Street recently haven’t we???
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Only the Council can compulsory purchase houses and I am not aware they have done so. The club did have 3 or 4 properties. I think a couple were sold once the club was taken out of the Os control and a couple were more recently demolished. The old casino would also need acquiring for demolition as part of a bigger development.
 
Ben Mansford said that a statement on the East Stand will be made some time next year, priority being given to the new training ground. Personally l think the new east stand is 5 years plus away, but hope I’m wrong.
 
I think rather than pumping zillions into a new stand, we should look at proper (safe) segregation and investing in entry/exit infrastructure so we can use the full capacity of what we have now.
There was loads of empty seats on Saturday, all because we can't fully utilise the east, and south east corner.
I don't know what it would take, but we seem uniquely unable to do this at the moment and take advantage of what we already have in place
 
A completed stadium would also be an icon as most have to pass it on their way into the town.
When is the east scheduled for redevelopment, I must have missed that one?
 
Personally I think expanding the East is not a priority.

Making it safe with the ability to sell it out probably is.

I would rather Critch got a bigger budget for now 👍
 
seasideone said:
Personally I think expanding the East is not a priority.

Making it safe with the ability to sell it out probably is.

I would rather Critch got a bigger budget for now 👍
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It isn’t one you’re right, as an interim measure use it correctly and fully occupied (as in the Prem days) with the right amount of minimum investment but sort this entering and exiting shambles out for the safety of all fans!
 
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20k tops for me. When we had average attendances of more than that it was in an era where most people could afford to go to every game and football was far higher up the priority list with what more casual supporters did with their time and money. That isn't the case now. There is a limit to our catchment too. And to get many more people into the ground regularly we'd need to be playing top flight again, that is the sad fact. In my view we currently have one game this season where we might have filled a 20k ground and that was Saturday.

I suggest we have a look at average attendance at the end of this season and see where we are. If we sell out our home capacity more than 3 times it will mean 2 things; 1) we'll be in the mix for promotion so we'll all be dead happy, and 2) calls for a bigger ground becoming a higher priority will have a bit more validity.

20k capacity, with some serious overhaul work to fix all those cut corners from our previous shyster owners, would be absolutely where I would like to see us eventually. However, as I've said before, the expansion of the ground is way down the list for me after a new training centre, youth academy, continued squad investment and ensuring the stability of the club as a business. I wouldn't sacrifice any of those for a bigger capacity.

And I recognise, and am massively grateful for, the fact this is mostly Simon Sadler's money that is making things happen and I am damn sure he knows how to spend his own money better than me!
 
LA1 Seasider said:
Minimum 25k seat IMO. Milk away fans dry with £30+ tickets and give them 5k tickets. Why turn down such a ready source of income. You can design the away section to have poor acoustics and a lesser atmosphere and locate it away from the pitch as much as possible (St. James Park).
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Revoe Park?
 
Hevster said:
20k tops for me. When we had average attendances of more than that it was in an era where most people could afford to go to every game and football was far higher up the priority list with what more casual supporters did with their time and money. That isn't the case now. There is a limit to our catchment too. And to get many more people into the ground regularly we'd need to be playing top flight again, that is the sad fact. In my view we currently have one game this season where we might have filled a 20k ground and that was Saturday.

I suggest we have a look at average attendance at the end of this season and see where we are. If we sell out our home capacity more than 3 times it will mean 2 things; 1) we'll be in the mix for promotion so we'll all be dead happy, and 2) calls for a bigger ground becoming a higher priority will have a bit more validity.

20k capacity, with some serious overhaul work to fix all those cut corners from our previous shyster owners, would be absolutely where I would like to see us eventually. However, as I've said before, the expansion of the ground is way down the list for me after a new training centre, youth academy, continued squad investment and ensuring the stability of the club as a business. I wouldn't sacrifice any of those for a bigger capacity.

And I recognise, and am massively grateful for, the fact this is mostly Simon Sadler's money that is making things happen and I am damn sure he knows how to spend his own money better than me!
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Yet actually, it was in a period when people had less disposable income and would have almost certainly prioritised games. In addition a period where the game was less family oriented.

In addition our catchment area is much bigger / highly populated.

You talk of “looking at average attendance at the end of the season”, yet as was seen on Saturday our attendance is restricted to a maximum of 14,000, which impacts significantly on our potential average over the season (most sides in the Championship will see highest attendance at around 150-160% of their average - ours will be more like 120% if that) So from our perspective the average attendance in meaningless right now.

In addition talk about only selling out one or two games is also meaningless because our supporter base is also self-limiting, by virtue of our capacity…. Clubs don’t aim to “Sell Out” they aim to sell more tickets and accept that bigger games sell more tickets than small games (simple as)…. So instead of our big games being 14K and our small games 10K, we want to get to big games 18-20K and small games 12-13K… And that is 100% realistic in the Championship (never mind the Prem)….

If we’re serious about spending time in the Prem. then we probably need 22K in order to cope with the requirements and you’d then limit away support if you needed extra capacity for a growing fanbase….(as someone else pointed out, gate receipts probably become less important once you get into the prem, due to the TV money).

I really wouldn’t under-estimate the potential to grow our supporter base though and IMO waiting too long, instead of striking whilst there is a buzz around may prove to be a mistake…
 
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