Stanley Johnson

Now a French National to keep link with the EU. Ok that’s what he wants and his mother was French, but wi the same set of circumstances, whether I voted remain or leave, I wouldn’t under any circumstances become French. I’m English and proud of it.
I'm the same... but I've got a few mates who have dual nationality but admittedly no one who has ever gone the whole hog! I've thought a fair bit about it a d concluded that while I'm English and could never be anything else I appreciate that not everyone shares such a deep affinity with their country of birth... and for multiple reasons
 
Now a French National to keep link with the EU. Ok that’s what he wants and his mother was French, but wi the same set of circumstances, whether I voted remain or leave, I wouldn’t under any circumstances become French. I’m English and proud of it.
Would go down well with some of the Boris Bootlickers and Francophobes on here. 🤣🤣🤣
 
I've never understood the "I'm English/French/German" and proud. We are all human beings, national boundaries are a nonsense. I can't stand a lot of English people,I like a lot, why pin your colours to a flag or a nation?
And the fact the PMs father has opted for this tells you a lot.
Why pin your colours to a football club? It’s the same philosophy.
 
Why pin your colours to a football club? It’s the same philosophy.
I disagree, you're watching a sporting entity and support team x that you can buy into. Being "proud" of being born on a piece of land with a man made border is a weird concept, what are you proud of? It's a quirk of fate you were born in England, how does that define you?
 
I disagree, you're watching a sporting entity and support team x that you can buy into. Being "proud" of being born on a piece of land with a man made border is a weird concept, what are you proud of? It's a quirk of fate you were born in England, how does that define you?
Sorry but that doesn’t make sense, the vast majority of football fans support the club in the area they were born, exactly the same as being loyal to the country you were born in. I for instance, support England.
 
Sorry but that doesn’t make sense, the vast majority of football fans support the club in the area they were born, exactly the same as being loyal to the country you were born in. I for instance, support England.
Man United, City, Liverpool have hundreds and thousands of fans that weren't born in the respective areas so I'm not sure you're correct in that. Football is a sport you get behind a specific team, I support England as well in a sporting context but I don't have a huge sense of pride being born in England, I'm glad I was though.
 
Sorry but that doesn’t make sense, the vast majority of football fans support the club in the area they were born, exactly the same as being loyal to the country you were born in. I for instance, support England.
Not after a fight or anything but I'm not sure about your "majority of football fans support the club in the area they were born" thing. I'd love you to be right btw.
 
I wouldn't object to them wandering but I do object to them using violence and killing people. Not sure the purpose of your rather bizarre post?
Well from your post you said borders are pointless, well clearly the Ukrainian people think otherwise. As do most of the modern world. Clearly you are in the minority.
 
Well from your post you said borders are pointless, well clearly the Ukrainian people think otherwise. As do most of the modern world. Clearly you are in the minority.
Anyone being attacked will take umbrage, regardless of borders. Native Americans didn't have borders and rival tribes attacked one another, you're a tiresome sort.....
 
Anyone being attacked will take umbrage, regardless of borders. Native Americans didn't have borders and rival tribes attacked one another, you're a tiresome sort.....
Tiresome ? Why because I hold different views that you disagree with and pull you up on it ? Got it.
 
So no problem with Russia wandering over to the Donbas then ? Hypocrite.
Yep, what Shandy fails to grasp is that the vast majority of the people in the world don't agree with his point of view. Why's that? Because the human brain doesn't make us think like that.
 
I've never understood the "I'm English/French/German" and proud. We are all human beings, national boundaries are a nonsense. I can't stand a lot of English people,I like a lot, why pin your colours to a flag or a nation?
And the fact the PMs father has opted for this tells you a lot.
So basically your saying we’re all jihadists, communists, Zionist’s, racists then being as we’re all one?

Good luck with that. 🙄
 
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Yep, what Shandy fails to grasp is that the vast majority of the people in the world don't agree with his point of view. Why's that? Because the human brain doesn't make us think like that.
The vast majority of the world, where have you established that from. Its a truly comical statement, laughable. I've told you before to stick to footy you actually make sense on that front.
 
I've never understood the "I'm English/French/German" and proud. We are all human beings, national boundaries are a nonsense. I can't stand a lot of English people,I like a lot, why pin your colours to a flag or a nation?
And the fact the PMs father has opted for this tells you a lot.

You wouldn't understand the "I'm Ukrainian and proud" mentality then. That's sad considering how many have given their lives for their country.
 
I've never understood the "I'm English/French/German" and proud. We are all human beings, national boundaries are a nonsense. I can't stand a lot of English people,I like a lot, why pin your colours to a flag or a nation?
And the fact the PMs father has opted for this tells you a lot.
Anyone would think that being French would give him freer travel around Europe plus financial benefits. Its almost like he's saying Brexit wasn't a great idea as promised by his son.
 
The vast majority of the world, where have you established that from. Its a truly comical statement, laughable. I've told you before to stick to footy you actually make sense on that front.
from the point that most people in the world are proud of the country they come from. Simple really. You are simply looking for what you believe is an ideal world. And that is never gonna happen whilst man inhabits this planet. So get real and stop coming up with crap.
 
from the point that most people in the world are proud of the country they come from. Simple really. You are simply looking for what you believe is an ideal world. And that is never gonna happen whilst man inhabits this planet. So get real and stop coming up with crap.
Borders are a relatively modern phenomenon. There are 160,000 miles worth of borders half formed post the 20th century, many formed by acts of violence and aggression. African countries were split up and created by Europeans, most of the middle East was (hence the very straight lines as borders) native Americans didn't bother with borders. I'll ask again, what makes people proud of being associated with being born on a piece of land, a flag etc? I'll reiterate I'm grateful for being born here but I don't feel the need for patriotism. In response to most people in the world statement, I doubt it considering the borders have been recently forced on them (in historical terms)
 
Borders are a relatively modern phenomenon. There are 160,000 miles worth of borders half formed post the 20th century, many formed by acts of violence and aggression. African countries were split up and created by Europeans, most of the middle East was (hence the very straight lines as borders) native Americans didn't bother with borders. I'll ask again, what makes people proud of being associated with being born on a piece of land, a flag etc? I'll reiterate I'm grateful for being born here but I don't feel the need for patriotism. In response to most people in the world statement, I doubt it considering the borders have been recently forced on them (in historical terms)
doesn't change the post that that was a reply to. Man has always wanted to cross lands[ borders] and take as much as they can. Goes back thousands of years. Did native americans and their different tribes co-exist together or did they have what they considered their own land and protected it from invaders. Just because it wasn't defined as the term border doesn't mean it wasn't.
 
doesn't change the post that that was a reply to. Man has always wanted to cross lands[ borders] and take as much as they can. Goes back thousands of years.
Indeed migration has always existed. Jewish dispora, early African mass migration the list is endless. That fact alone makes a mockery out of patriotism and being proud of a country, human history says its a very modern ideal.
 
Indeed migration has always existed. Jewish dispora, early African mass migration the list is endless. That fact alone makes a mockery out of patriotism and being proud of a country, human history says its a very modern ideal.
no, I don't think so. Romans, Vikings and Normans have invaded this land hundreds and hundreds of years ago and those people already here have defended it. So if they were defending it, then it's natural to think it was a border which invaders crossed.
 
no, I don't think so. Romans, Vikings and Normans have invaded this land hundreds and hundreds of years ago and those people already here have defended it. So if they were defending it, then it's natural to think it was a border which invaders crossed.
We have a natural border it's an island. People didn't defend for a flag though it was to save their own skin.
 
We have a natural border it's an island. People didn't defend for a flag though it was to save their own skin.
we'll never agree. As long as man has been on the planet he's tried to take something that is not his so to speak. That's not gonna change. You might want to believe in some type of nirvana but it ain't gonna happen.
 
from the point that most people in the world are proud of the country they come from. Simple really. You are simply looking for what you believe is an ideal world. And that is never gonna happen whilst man inhabits this planet. So get real and stop coming up with crap.
As Lost would say, source?

You might be right but I very much doubt there are statistics for this kind of thing. Many nomadic peoples would have no concept of a fixed border.
 
As Lost would say, source?

You might be right but I very much doubt there are statistics for this kind of thing. Many nomadic peoples would have no concept of a fixed border.
that's why I haven't used the term border in a few of my posts.
 
no, I don't think so. Romans, Vikings and Normans have invaded this land hundreds and hundreds of years ago and those people already here have defended it. So if they were defending it, then it's natural to think it was a border which invaders crossed.
When this island (or most of it) was part of the Roman Empire I imagine most people who lived here would have owed their allegiance to Rome.

When Vikings took a big chunk then I expect those people, for a generation or so, would have owed their allegiance to somewhere in Norway or thereabouts. There’s a river about 400 yards from me that marked the border with Danelaw.

When the Normans took over then the allegiance of many would be to France. (A friend wondered why so many English Kings were buried in France - he worked out it was because they were French).

Tudors were Welsh which I suppose was an improvement.

The Stuarts were Scottish…hmm.

And they were replaced by William of Orange (Dutch) and a bunch of Germans who were anglicised in a bit of a rush with WW1.

Given all that I can’t understand why anyone would think that national identity might be a bit confusing.
 
When this island (or most of it) was part of the Roman Empire I imagine most people who lived here would have owed their allegiance to Rome.

When Vikings took a big chunk then I expect those people, for a generation or so, would have owed their allegiance to somewhere in Norway or thereabouts. There’s a river about 400 yards from me that marked the border with Danelaw.

When the Normans took over then the allegiance of many would be to France. (A friend wondered why so many English Kings were buried in France - he worked out it was because they were French).

Tudors were Welsh which I suppose was an improvement.

The Stuarts were Scottish…hmm.

And they were replaced by William of Orange (Dutch) and a bunch of Germans who were anglicised in a bit of a rush with WW1.

Given all that I can’t understand why anyone would think that national identity might be a bit confusing.
You’re talking about centuries old history, most countries now have been established for a long time and become settled, the U.K., USA, France, even Germany, despite all that hitler did. After that of course Europe was reorganised, and some, Putin for instance, d like that. Essentially though, residents i stable countries like the U.K., arE loyal to their country.
 
You’re talking about centuries old history, most countries now have been established for a long time and become settled, the U.K., USA, France, even Germany, despite all that hitler did. After that of course Europe was reorganised, and some, Putin for instance, d like that. Essentially though, residents i stable countries like the U.K., arE loyal to their country.
Depends what you mean by a long time.

NI and Eire were created just over 100 years ago. Well my dad was born just over 100 years ago, so not that long ago.

After the Scottish took over England when James 1 acceded to the English throne in 1603 it took 100 years for Scotland and England to become part of a larger country. That’s only 300 years ago which is a blink of an eye in history. Fcuk me your and my combined lives alone must come to close to 140 years.

Look at countries in Europe like, say, Romania, Finland and Poland and their borders were created even more recently. If you look at Africa then those borders were probably created during our lifetimes.

Makes you think about this idea of nationhood doesn’t it?
 
Depends what you mean by a long time.

NI and Eire were created just over 100 years ago. Well my dad was born just over 100 years ago, so not that long ago.

After the Scottish took over England when James 1 acceded to the English throne in 1603 it took 100 years for Scotland and England to become part of a larger country. That’s only 300 years ago which is a blink of an eye in history. Fcuk me your and my combined lives alone must come to close to 140 years.

Look at countries in Europe like, say, Romania, Finland and Poland and their borders were created even more recently. If you look at Africa then those borders were probably created during our lifetimes.

Makes you think about this idea of nationhood doesn’t it?
I think Ukraine has confirmed how important loyalty to your country and its borders is. Thousands are dying to preserve that.

What would your reaction be if England was invaded, would you capitulate, or fight?
 
I think Ukraine has confirmed how important loyalty to your country and its borders is. Thousands are dying to preserve that.

What would your reaction be if England was invaded, would you capitulate, or fight?
Is it loyalty to a country or fighting to save your own skin? Wars happened before countries and borders existed.
 
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