Stop blaming ordinary people

[Tangerinenick]

Good article - thought provoking

Even CAT may agree with some points

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...ZZ1XcKKYLKOmybGkzRYwj49XAEwbPV4_4OMGTe9PdvdPk

 

[Tangerinemoss]

Once I got past the ravines and gorges, actually a very thoughtful article. I would encourage people to read to the end before dissing it. In WW2, the Government's response would be called propaganda.

I do disagree about the blame being unfair on that busy weekend, it was totally fair as a massive group, not just a few, took the opportunity to have a holiday. The point about politicians consistency is a really good one, most including myself have been broadly supportive of Boris, but he really did as big a U turn as Trump.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Once I got past the ravines and gorges, actually a very thoughtful article. I would encourage people to read to the end before dissing it. In WW2, the Government's response would be called propaganda.

I do disagree about the blame being unfair on that busy weekend, it was totally fair as a massive group, not just a few, took the opportunity to have a holiday. The point about politicians consistency is a really good one, most including myself have been broadly supportive of Boris, but he really did as big a U turn as Trump.

"In WW2 the Government's response would be called propaganda." What's the old saying? 'In time of war the first casualty is the truth.'

 

[catinstalbans]

Agreed with nearly everything in that article.

 

[Whitstabletangerine]

This Sunday could be a big test, if the weather forecasters have it right then the beaches, parks and open spaces may well see large numbers of people taking advantage of the fine spell.
There needs to be a public service announcement tonight to get the message across.

 

[Wizaard]

Anyone disagree virulently with anything in that article. A very good read.

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

A good article with many valid points. I didn't particularly enjoy the style of writing, especially at the beginning, but it got better.

I found the following quote interesting as we have seen this attitude reflected in quite a few posts on this messageboard over the last few days:

Looking across the websites of the main pro-regime papers, though, it’s hard to find any prominent stories criticising these policies or doing anything to hold the government to account, despite almost every story being about the virus. Instead, any criticism of government strategy is attacked with a volley of complaints that “the left is politicising coronavirus” – as though there is anything more political than a pandemic.

 

[Wizaard]

A good article with many valid points. I didn't particularly enjoy the style of writing, especially at the beginning, but it got better.

I found the following quote interesting as we have seen this attitude reflected in quite a few posts on this messageboard over the last few days:

Looking across the websites of the main pro-regime papers, though, it’s hard to find any prominent stories criticising these policies or doing anything to hold the government to account, despite almost every story being about the virus. Instead, any criticism of government strategy is attacked with a volley of complaints that “the left is politicising coronavirus” – as though there is anything more political than a pandemic.

Yes, that struck a chord with me. See any thread from Cat...

 

[20togo]

Anyone disagree virulently with anything in that article. A very good read.

Yep, it's a bit out of date. Some-one pasted the headlines in a papers the other day in which there was plenty of criticism. And I certainly disagree with the para WM quotes.
As for WM's second para, criticism on here is fine but it's the manner in which it's done. Some on here are doing it to score political points without showing an ounce of compassion whatsoever. And I find that objectionable.

 

[basilrobbie]

It's an interesting article, certainly. But not always in a good way.

It's easy to cherry-pick quotations containing criticism of the Government to make a case, and some of that criticism is valid. But it is hardly insightful and it would have been fairer had he acknowledged that some of the apparent contradictions in messaging are a product of people working under great pressure and at the same time trying to satisfy a ravening media that has nothing better to do than pick apart everything they hear.

I think that if you ask lay people to discuss scientific issues in the way that we are, then there is bound to be some stuff said that is wrong or unhelpful. That is not nearly as important as (say) strategic decisions about herd immunity or procurement of ventilators, where questions can be levelled at politicians and scientists alike, and there the media's scrutiny is entirely appropriate. I think the truth is that we have third Division politicians trying to manage a Premier League problem ; they are holding out better than I had hoped, but the lack of talent does show when they are under stress.

I was more interested in what he had to say about human nature and behaviour, and while the Hartlepool example was grim, it wasn't exactly surprising. But therein lay the flaw in his article ; he titles it "don't blame ordinary people" - but then goes on to suggest (explicitly and implicitly) that a great many of those people are stupid, badly-educated and ignorant. His comments about social conditioning also suggest that he thinks that we have a well-organised, manipulative elite who thrive because we are all easily susceptible. Like most such propositions, there is enough truth in it to make it plausible, but it is revealing in what it says about his attitudes. In his way, he is just as dismissive of "ordinary people" as the very people he is complaining about, as well as just one more person with a conspiracy theory to peddle.

It was an interesting read. But to me, a good example of how amateur sociologists doubling up as journalists are just as capable of talking bollocks as anyone else.

 

[Whitstabletangerine]

"the odd person frantically over buying", the writer had obviously not visited a supermarket down this way in the past few weeks.

 

[bfcpete]

Everybody is entitled to their views and opinions and should be allowed to express those in a reasonable way. There are parts of the article I agree with and parts that I don't.
There are two things that I dont like more generally. The first is that there is often a lack of balance. In the current unprecedented crisis there are many things that have been done well and some things not so well, with some mistakes. We need to recognise that this is a new situation, with people under extreme pressure and no magic wands or instant solutions. As such, we should all show some realism and balance. None of us are perfect and all of us make mistakes. I am sure Cat, for example, would have some shortcomings if we scrutinised their work. So we must apply some balance.
The second thing I don't like is when people feel they have a right to shout louder and louder, including on social media, if they disagree with something and even when someone sets out the factual basis or reasons for a particular course of action. On occasions the likes of Piers Morgan has gone from proper scrutiny and challenge to irresponsibility

 

[Tangiverse]

That was such a refreshing article to read as all there is out there is 'pro-regime' (love that phrase) press. I've always thought get rid of the propaganda indoctinating press and we'll have a population that can actually think for itself. Pro-regimes press sales are around 30% down on top of year on year declines so the end in nigh. I say hurry it up can't wait for their final day so we can have an electotate that can make it's own mind up. That folks is my last ever political comment on here but felt I had to comment against our filthy press.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

It's an interesting article, certainly. But not always in a good way.

It's easy to cherry-pick quotations containing criticism of the Government to make a case, and some of that criticism is valid. But it is hardly insightful and it would have been fairer had he acknowledged that some of the apparent contradictions in messaging are a product of people working under great pressure and at the same time trying to satisfy a ravening media that has nothing better to do than pick apart everything they hear.

I think that if you ask lay people to discuss scientific issues in the way that we are, then there is bound to be some stuff said that is wrong or unhelpful. That is not nearly as important as (say) strategic decisions about herd immunity or procurement of ventilators, where questions can be levelled at politicians and scientists alike, and there the media's scrutiny is entirely appropriate. I think the truth is that we have third Division politicians trying to manage a Premier League problem ; they are holding out better than I had hoped, but the lack of talent does show when they are under stress.

I was more interested in what he had to say about human nature and behaviour, and while the Hartlepool example was grim, it wasn't exactly surprising. But therein lay the flaw in his article ; he titles it "don't blame ordinary people" - but then goes on to suggest (explicitly and implicitly) that a great many of those people are stupid, badly-educated and ignorant. His comments about social conditioning also suggest that he thinks that we have a well-organised, manipulative elite who thrive because we are all easily susceptible. Like most such propositions, there is enough truth in it to make it plausible, but it is revealing in what it says about his attitudes. In his way, he is just as dismissive of "ordinary people" as the very people he is complaining about, as well as just one more person with a conspiracy theory to peddle.
It was an interesting read. But to me, a good example of how amateur sociologists doubling up as journalists are just as capable of talking bollocks as anyone else.

and I would say that you have been desperately casting around to find ways of dismissing the article.
As for the "manipulative elite", in what way is mass advertising not trying to be manipulative? In what way is the blatant political bias of the Murdoch media empire not trying to be manipulative? In what way is the banking industry's misuse of pension funds and mortgage accounts to play roulette on the less salubrious financial markets not manipulative? We see, hear and read lots of 'bollocks' in the media. Perhaps we would have a more balanced view if we were to be more routinely exposed to the sort of bollocks peddled in this article.


I

 

[poolseasider]

That was such a refreshing article to read as all there is out there is 'pro-regime' (love that phrase) press. I've always thought get rid of the propaganda indoctinating press and we'll have a population that can actually think for itself. Pro-regimes press sales are around 30% down on top of year on year declines so the end in nigh. I say hurry it up can't wait for their final day so we can have an electotate that can make it's own mind up. That folks is my last ever political comment on here but felt I had to comment against our filthy press.

Bit of a contradiction that Adam Ramsay is a Labour supporting left wing journalist both sides are as bad as each other.
Here is his latest Tweet-
Tomorrow is surely going to be the day that much of the Labour left wishes it had got behind
@labourlewis
.

 

[Tangiverse]

Bit of a contradiction that Adam Ramsay is a Labour supporting left wing journalist both sides are as bad as each other.
Here is his latest Tweet-
Tomorrow is surely going to be the day that much of the Labour left wishes it had got behind
@labourlewis
.

Well that's a bit remiss of you comparing one journalist to an army of dedicated propagandists and you're a very naughty boy as I said that's my last political post, you will not make me fall into another of your traps.

 

[Bloodtangerine]

I don’t think it’s that good an article tbh

 

[Pauls_Boutique]

Not a lot in the article I disagree with.

 

[basilrobbie]

and I would say that you have been desperately casting around to find ways of dismissing the article.
As for the "manipulative elite", in what way is mass advertising not trying to be manipulative? In what way is the blatant political bias of the Murdoch media empire not trying to be manipulative? In what way is the banking industry's misuse of pension funds and mortgage accounts to play roulette on the less salubrious financial markets not manipulative? We see, hear and read lots of 'bollocks' in the media. Perhaps we would have a more balanced view if we were to be more routinely exposed to the sort of bollocks peddled in this article.


I

Just calling it as I see it. My scepticism went up a notch when he claimed there had been little panic buying.

I wasn't saying that manipulation doesn't exist, and indeed it is both disingenuous - and manipulative - for you to suggest that I did. Setting aside people who don't (or can't) think for themselves, in my view, there is more scepticism about what people in power say nowadays than there ever has been. This is mainly because we have access to social media but also (paradoxically) because we are far more pre-disposed to believe media output that reinforces our own natural prejudices than before. We might be more manipulable by members of our own "tribe", but I think that is as far as it goes.

Your last sentence conveniently overlooks that said range of bollocks is easily available if you want to go and look for it. And if the author of the piece had been looking for balance (as you suggest), then he might have explored why it is that there has been some criticism of the public in recent weeks. I don't think it is particularly helpful to be apportioning blame to anyone at the moment, but when the time does come, then there will be a wide range of people who will have to own some of it.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

To be honest I think we’re over analysing the situation.
Someone should just have shot the two teenage, down and out tormenting, racist scrotes in their heads. And then sold their bikes on E Bay.
Sorted

 

[Dark_Side_of_the_Lune]

There seem to be few plaudits knocking about for how the fleet of foot and agile private sector is coming to the rescue of the beaucratic centralised public sector.

is it the risk averse, avoidance, blame culture and lumpen inertia of bang average public sector senior management which is threatening to prolong the release of the nation from lockdown? And the crippling effects of loss of earnings for which the public sector is largely immune?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Nah. It’s the banks.

Looking to make a killing when we come out the otherside.

Proper norty.

 

[Bloodtangerine]

Just calling it as I see it. My scepticism went up a notch when he claimed there had been little panic buying.

I wasn't saying that manipulation doesn't exist, and indeed it is both disingenuous - and manipulative - for you to suggest that I did. Setting aside people who don't (or can't) think for themselves, in my view, there is more scepticism about what people in power say nowadays than there ever has been. This is mainly because we have access to social media but also (paradoxically) because we are far more pre-disposed to believe media output that reinforces our own natural prejudices than before. We might be more manipulable by members of our own "tribe", but I think that is as far as it goes.

Your last sentence conveniently overlooks that said range of bollocks is easily available if you want to go and look for it. And if the author of the piece had been looking for balance (as you suggest), then he might have explored why it is that there has been some criticism of the public in recent weeks. I don't think it is particularly helpful to be apportioning blame to anyone at the moment, but when the time does come, then there will be a wide range of people who will have to own some of it.

The 10% uplift only in shopping confirmed that the “facts” in the article were made up

 

[Lala]

It’s an article telling us we shouldn’t blame people but then telling us to blame a group of different people.

 

[deary]

The article lacks balance, some points are good but in the main its just a way to bash the 'elite' written by someone with an anti government/establishment agenda.
Take it for what it is & thats totally fine & dandy.

I would be interested to hear why the guy ended up homeless there is normally a story behind it. As to why the scrotes beat them up.
Have they been watching 'A Clockwork Orange? Perhaps they tired of beating up people on xbox & fancied the real thing? Bit like after wanking over online porn! Do they need a hug or a thrashing or both .

There is absolutely no regard for self accountability.
Governments will come & go. Its easy to become engulfed in 'blame culture' Ultimately though in life people are responsible for their own actions & their behaviour towards others. Everything else is just white noise.
Most people are decent but you will always get cnuts in all sections of society from the very top to the very bottom.

 

[Bloodtangerine]

The more you critically look at the article the more you realise it’s pure made up shite ..there is no legless tramp being constantly terrorised by 2 bike riding teenage locals.......who are such psychos they then stop to calmly “discuss“ their behaviour with some well spoken journo for 20 minutes ....mmhh?...it’s almost as if it’s made up eh?

 

[Wizaard]

There seem to be few plaudits knocking about for how the fleet of foot and agile private sector is coming to the rescue of the beaucratic centralised public sector.

is it the risk averse, avoidance, blame culture and lumpen inertia of bang average public sector senior management which is threatening to prolong the release of the nation from lockdown? And the crippling effects of loss of earnings for which the public sector is largely immune?

Absolute bollox. Virgin are haggling around the cost of renting out a few of their beds while the public sector has built a 4000 bed intensive care unit in a week.

Carry on.

 

[Dark_Side_of_the_Lune]

Absolute bollox. Virgin are haggling around the cost of renting out a few of their beds while the public sector has built a 4000 bed intensive care unit in a week.

Carry on.

You choose to ignore the work of the engineers in those private companies designing ventilation systems if you want then. Bringing approaches from F1 to come up with solutions. Or the testing facilities belatedly coming on stream then because nobody had asked them earlier.
Yeah bollix indeed

 

[Bloodtangerine]

The article is written by an unremarkable sixth form student ...that’s all it is

 

[basilrobbie]

You choose to ignore the work of the engineers in those private companies designing ventilation systems if you want then. Bringing approaches from F1 to come up with solutions. Or the testing facilities belatedly coming on stream then because nobody had asked them earlier.
Yeah bollix indeed

Good work by the F1 people and the engineers. Credit should go to them.

Equally, taking a generalised swipe at the public sector is a trifle unfair to the doctors and nurses saving lives, the DWP folk trying to cope with a flood of applications for universal credit and all the scientists and civil servants trying to co-ordinate an unprecedented co-operative effort to get us through this.

 

[Dark_Side_of_the_Lune]

Good work by the F1 people and the engineers. Credit should go to them.

Equally, taking a generalised swipe at the public sector is a trifle unfair to the doctors and nurses saving lives, the DWP folk trying to cope with a flood of applications for universal credit and all the scientists and civil servants trying to co-ordinate an unprecedented co-operative effort to get us through this.

I didn’t though.

Good work by the F1 people and the engineers. Credit should go to them.

Equally, taking a generalised swipe at the public sector is a trifle unfair to the doctors and nurses saving lives, the DWP folk trying to cope with a flood of applications for universal credit and all the scientists and civil servants trying to co-ordinate an unprecedented co-operative effort to get us through this.

I submit to you Page 11 of the Sunday Times