That's Death

S

straightatthewall

Well-known member
I see Esther Rantzen wants a new debate around assisted dying and has signed up for Dignitas.

What are our thoughts on this delicate little topic. Personally, I've seen situations where humans get treated with less dignity and compassion than animals when it comes to the end of their life, so I can understand the feelings. Of course, it's hard not to think the situation would be open to horrific abuse.
 
Yep another one who fully supports it.

Having watched loved ones with terminal cancer (mum & dad) waste away to almost skeletons it’s inhumane to watch them suffer in their last few days/hours.

We as a nation are dog lovers and we don’t allow them to suffer in agony but instead we do the humane thing.

Shouldn’t be any different for human beings imo of course.

Time we allowed it in this country and not having to travel abroad for it to happen.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Yep another one who fully supports it.

Having watched loved ones with terminal cancer (mum & dad) waste away to almost skeletons it’s inhumane to watch them suffer in their last few days/hours.

We as a nation are dog lovers and we don’t allow them to suffer in agony but instead we do the humane thing.

Shouldn’t be any different for human beings imo of course.

Time we allowed it in this country and not having to travel abroad for it to happen.
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Having been clinically dead for 20 mins a few years back I have a rather prophetic opinion on the subject and fully agree that assisted dying should not only take place, but should be legal and be available in this Country.

One proviso would be that it should be heavily regulated within the remit of the medical profession, although some would say that would put unnecessary ethical and moral pressure on them.

A terrible, emotive and divisive subject that should be handled with great care
 
Not one for me

Having been told in the last 18 months that I had a terminal disease that would send me home to heaven in potentially 3 years and probably put me in a situation where I needed full time care within 18 months, I felt like ending it there and then, only to find out a couple of months later I'd been misdiagnosed and can expect to live until a ripe old age (assuming something else doesn't get me), I have a massive distrust of doctors' diagnoses
 
Just out of perverse interest- what is the church stance on this? Does that preclude heaven to those who choose this route?

Being a non religious person I can’t comment but I’m interested in how Christians or Muslims view this.
 
Chunkylad said:
Just out of perverse interest- what is the church stance on this? Does that preclude heaven to those who choose this route?

Being a non religious person I can’t comment but I’m interested in how Christians or Muslims view this.
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At risk of getting pelters for this . . . . .

As an Evangelical Christian, I can't speak for "the church" or even my own denomination (Free Methodist)

but on a personal level, I don't view this world as my home but rather heaven where I have an unshakeable belief that I will spend all eternity in the presence of God once this corruptible body gives up and therefore I choose to leave it all in my heavenly Father's will, especially given my recent negative experience of the medical profession

All I can do is echo the words of the apostle Paul "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21) and "For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." (! Corinthians 15:53-54
 
I support it but there has to be caveats such as a period of reflection between agreeing and doing. As well as offering the chance to reconsider it does potentially offer the time and space to reflect, enjoy what's left (if that's possible if you're in such bad health) and plan for those left behind.

I'm sure I saw that the Isle of Man are quite far down this road and may well be voting on it soon.

I understand people's objectives but it has to be an individuals choice.
 
Schalke_FY4 said:
I understand people's objectives but it has to be an individuals choice.
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Absolutely, and that for me is the biggest concern. If we legalise it, then will the medical profession begin to pressure people who would choose not to in order to save money at the expense of people's dignity?

I for one would not vote for any political party that included legalisation of assisted suicide in their manifesto
 
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Chunkylad said:
Just out of perverse interest- what is the church stance on this? Does that preclude heaven to those who choose this route?

Being a non religious person I can’t comment but I’m interested in how Christians or Muslims view this.
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They’ll probably have a war about it, that seems to be what religious types like to doo🤦‍♂️
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I think it is a very emotive and nuanced subject, and I am a little surprised that some people see it in such black and white terms. I could make a case either way with equal clarity and vigour and I've no idea which would be of the greatest societal value.
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It's only a message board Robbie. I prefer to state an opinion with a modicum of thought and reserve the right to change my opinion if someone who is more informed than me (not difficult) convinces me otherwise. Needs to be tightly controlled obvs to determine 'sound mind' etc. Mum's funeral yesterday so been thinking about how we each approach our end and how we choose to live it out, how we want to be remembered etc etc.
 
Schalke_FY4 said:
I support it but there has to be caveats such as a period of reflection between agreeing and doing. As well as offering the chance to reconsider it does potentially offer the time and space to reflect, enjoy what's left (if that's possible if you're in such bad health) and plan for those left behind.

I'm sure I saw that the Isle of Man are quite far down this road and may well be voting on it soon.

I understand people's objectives but it has to be an individuals choice.
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If it were legalised then you would have a right to change your mind at any period surely? Not a good look to drag you kicking and screaming in to the euthanasia suite - "Sorry sir, you signed the form we have to go through with it now". You might struggle to get a full refund, mind.
 
discussed this topic with the wife today. Mother in law died about three weeks ago aged 85 after spending 3 weeks in the Hospice and had been seriously ill for the last year having been up til that point active fit and healthy. My wife felt she was in favour but for me i found it weird the thought of all the mother in laws close knit family all gathering round her bed for one last final time with some-one then giving her a pill to take so she could die. And then we just file out of the room and that's it. That doesn't sit comfortably with me. A strange one.
 
April13th1970 said:
At risk of getting pelters for this . . . . .

As an Evangelical Christian, I can't speak for "the church" or even my own denomination (Free Methodist)

but on a personal level, I don't view this world as my home but rather heaven where I have an unshakeable belief that I will spend all eternity in the presence of God once this corruptible body gives up and therefore I choose to leave it all in my heavenly Father's will, especially given my recent negative experience of the medical profession

All I can do is echo the words of the apostle Paul "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21) and "For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." (! Corinthians 15:53-54
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You shouldn't get pelters for stating your beliefs April. I disagree with all of that but envy your certainty. Borne out of your recent experience or was it always thus?
 
Dr Hfuhruhurr said:
If it were legalised then you would have a right to change your mind at any period surely? Not a good look to drag you kicking and screaming in to the euthanasia suite - "Sorry sir, you signed the form we have to go through with it now". You might struggle to get a full refund, mind.
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I would suspect so but you'll be glad to k ow that it won't be me writing the legislation
 
Dr Hfuhruhurr said:
You shouldn't get pelters for stating your beliefs April. I disagree with all of that but envy your certainty. Borne out of your recent experience or was it always thus?
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Pretty much been so since I decided to put the transformative power of Christ's death and resurrection front and centre of my life at the age of 19 (so 41 years last week). Not going to lie. There's been times when I've not followed Christ as closely as I should have, but looking back those times have always led into the most difficult seasons of my life
 
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20togo said:
discussed this topic with the wife today. Mother in law died about three weeks ago aged 85 after spending 3 weeks in the Hospice and had been seriously ill for the last year having been up til that point active fit and healthy. My wife felt she was in favour but for me i found it weird the thought of all the mother in laws close knit family all gathering round her bed for one last final time with some-one then giving her a pill to take so she could die. And then we just file out of the room and that's it. That doesn't sit comfortably with me. A strange one.
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The key point there - I suppose - is whether it truly is the wish of the person who is dying. If it is, then it's something everyone else would have to work out how they deal with it. Which in some cases, would probably not be in a good way.

Maybe the reality is that whatever happens, it's going to be awful.
 
straightatthewall said:
The key point there - I suppose - is whether it truly is the wish of the person who is dying. If it is, then it's something everyone else would have to work out how they deal with it. Which in some cases, would probably not be in a good way.

Maybe the reality is that whatever happens, it's going to be awful.
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yeah, that's the difficulty. She would have been in favour if she could have but what about the husband of 66 years she was leaving behind? No easy decision and of course everyones circumstances are different.
 
We come into this life alone, and ultimately we leave alone. I think the decision should be very much that of the individual and their suffering. Those left behind have to deal with that grief. Grief is a normal unfortunate part of life's cycle.

I wouldn’t want to keep someone here and suffering just because of the effects on those who would be left behind.
 
Sooty59 said:
That is certainly a major stumbling block.
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I remember looking at this in some detail years ago when my Dad was on the edge of death so many times with Septicaemia, and they kept bringing him back, his close family in the end all felt it was cruel as his quality of life was so poor. He too had a very strong faith, but struggled when he was so, so ill for so long .

The Netherlands went the allowed route, with 2 doctors signatures if memory serves. When first brought in, there were huge suspicions that doctors were allowing costly patients to go, and families were pressurising the sick to go.

Netherlands rules

I am intellectually in favour, but practically struggle with it. When our old dog had to be euthanised, it brought it all back but at least he didn't have to suffer like Dad did. I wouldn't want to suffer for years with no hope of recovery, but it is so final, could I do i?

I respect anyone's view on this, this is the most personal thing of all.
 
That’s the thing with it being an individual choice as opposed to illegal I guess.

I wouldn’t impose it on anyone else. That would be wrong, mad and bad.

Anyone else still has the right not to believe in it, or want it for themselves.

But why should that ultimately stop me ?
Or anyone else who may do ? Why should someone else’s beliefs determine how I manage my own death ?
 
I've lost all my family over the years. Mum, Dad, a sister and a brother.
My brother took his own life. Not exactly suicide, but went to bed with 2 bottles of Rum, and didn't wake up'
He was 19 months older than I.
I blame the after effects of the A-Bomb testing in the far east.
I am now older than any of them reached.
Death is inevitable, we usually don't know when it will happen to us individually.
Fortunately, I feel quite well, not too many health problems.
 
A consultant who I gardened for was doing a report on this very subject in regard to the responsibility, ie should it be the Doctor's responsibility or the person who is dying or the family. She was very much in favour of it but her peers did not want the responsibility of having to make that decision unless it was watertight with the laws of the land.

I am very much in favour of it when I saw my dad dying and now my mum who is 98 and less than 5 stone in weight and just waiting to die, although she was always terrified of dying. She doesn't have the mental capacity now to make a decision but after seeing her a few days ago I would be very grateful for her if something was legal so that she could be put to rest. But I also don't sit comfortably with it either as I know she had this real fear of dying and because I can't get an answer from her now I would hate to make that decision on her behalf, It's very difficult indeed.
 
I’m another who is for it and what I have never understood is how a court of law can overturn the decision of any individual who wants to bow out with a bit of dignity. That just doesn’t sit right with me at all.
My mum was on a life support machine for 4 weeks before she eventually passed away and it was heart breaking to see her every day in that condition.
 
Death doesn’t bother me in the slightest. You’re essentially going back to wherever you were before you were born. I’m not scared when I think about the time before I was born so why should I be scared about the time after I die? I’d be sad not to see my grandkids growing up and sad as well for the grief my family would suffer, but as LaLa said, grief is a part of life and a part of loving.

Very different is the actual process of dying. I’ve seen that and it can be prolonged, very painful and truly horrible. Now that does scare me. I also wouldn’t want to inflict it on a loved one if they wanted a painless exit. So on balance it should be an individual choice about whether you want to avoid that experience.

I get the stuff about safeguards. I haven’t checked but in jurisdictions where it is allowed that’s in built, including the need for a court order to ensure there isn’t any duress/pressure.
 
Chunkylad said:
Just out of perverse interest- what is the church stance on this? Does that preclude heaven to those who choose this route?

Being a non religious person I can’t comment but I’m interested in how Christians or Muslims view this.
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I would imagine as far as the Roman Catholic Church goes it would be seen as a sin. Only because suicide is classed or at least used to be classed as one and it would be extremely hard to blag St Peter and try
 
How would it affect life insurance on those left behind? A question worth debating. I believe it costs £20000 to go to Dignitas . Another money making company whilst trying to show concern?
 
Old_Laytonian said:
How would it affect life insurance on those left behind? A question worth debating. I believe it costs £20000 to go to Dignitas . Another money making company whilst trying to show concern?
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Suicide doesn’t impact life insurance. Not sure this would.
 
Seasider1 said:
I would imagine as far as the Roman Catholic Church goes it would be seen as a sin. Only because suicide is classed or at least used to be classed as one and it would be extremely hard to blag St Peter and try
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This covers the RC view of assisted suicide. The earlier part of the article covers it from a wider Christian worldview (one which I would align myself to)
 
I'm very much in support of it, but the conditions under which it is allowed would need to be considered very carefully. For example, there could be a scenario where someone decides they want to die because they feel they're a burden on their family - even when their family doesn't think that at all. It's very difficult, and a minefield of factors to consider.

Fundamentally though, it should be about quality of life. As many of us know having seen loved ones pass away, often in the very late stages there is zero quality of life, so if that is the diagnosis, then there should be a choice because it is inhumane to prolong someone's suffering needlessly. You can literally watch someone waste away for weeks before death. It's actually cruel. No-one asked to be born, and if someone wishes to avoid a prolonged death then they should be allowed - with significant safeguards of course.
 
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