The loan market and our squad

Philbfctrois

Well-known member
Not a fan to be honest as they aren't our players and go back to their parent clubs

It's just moving the problem for another year

I know people will mention Forest and how they used good loans to get promoted but its cost them millions to replace those loans

I think maybe one or two are OK but we have 4 now with talk of another coming in next week

It doesn’t look like much forward planning to me

Btw I do like the look of Fiorini and the Arsenal kid, less sure on the nobber and the tall bloke from Wolves who couldn't trap a bag of cement against Reading

Anyway still need a right back ASAP and we still don't know if Bowler is going, for me keeping Bowler for another season is a better bit of business than any of the loans we have brought in

I'm starting to like the look of what Appleton is doing especially in midfield where he is trying to get more footballing players in the centre of the pitch instead of the Critchley defensive set up

Long way to go but hopefully a couple more in on permanent deals and we can kick on

Looking forward to Stoke on Saturday, will be interesting to see who starts
 

LA1 Seasider

Well-known member
I agree that taking on a large number of loans is a risky strategy, especially if they’re going to be key players. I’m hoping the club have a long term strategy to replace these loanees with young players of our own, however that likely requires time to identify and sign as well as develop appropriate youngsters. Even the very best teams have at least 1 or 2 players on loan from time to time so I’m not overly concerned as long it’s not 5 of the starting XI and as long as there are players of our own who are clearly able to slot in and do the same job. I’d hate for a repeat of Grayson’s initial departure, only in the summer, and see the squad decimated (even if we did somehow luck out on the back it that).
 

XBeds-Now-Kings_Meaburn

Well-known member
Not Ideal but a way of getting maybe better players than we could otherwise afford . Even signings to a degree are temporary , theres little to no loyalty anymore so the teams and squads are always transitioning to some extent . Loans used to be a way of looking at a player before committing to buying but that seems to have evolved into this new way for clubs with huge squad resources to give players experience . Maybe there should be a more stringent cap on squad size so players find their current 1st team level rather than spend years in development teams .
 

voyeur

Well-known member
Getting the right balance in midfield is Appletons immediate task I reckon. Will be interesting to see how it pans out. Quitch didnt have one Fiorini or a Patino, never mind both. It feels to me like playing both is something to experiment with and work towards. We will need some more experienced heads initially at least.
 

Philbfctrois

Well-known member
Not Ideal but a way of getting maybe better players than we could otherwise afford . Even signings to a degree are temporary , theres little to no loyalty anymore so the teams and squads are always transitioning to some extent . Loans used to be a way of looking at a player before committing to buying but that seems to have evolved into this new way for clubs with huge squad resources to give players experience . Maybe there should be a more stringent cap on squad size so players find their current 1st team level rather than spend years in development teams .
Under 21s at their parent clubs don't count towards squad sizes

I do agree that the loan market has changed though, I read something on Chelsea a couple of years ago having 40 odd players out on loan during one season
 

mull

Well-known member
I'm actually in agreement with you on this one Phil. That's quite a few inexperienced players who benefit us in the short term if they work out, not so much if they don't.
Another permanent would be great but only if we can get someone better than what we have. We've not yet lost anyone which is great and as players come back from injuries they will see like new signings.
Lastly I'm fully expecting to see Apter, Moore and possibly one or two more of the young lads to be much more involved in and around the squad than we saw last year. It's all progression😁
 

Philbfctrois

Well-known member
Getting the right balance in midfield is Appletons immediate task I reckon. Will be interesting to see how it pans out. Quitch didnt have one Fiorini or a Patino, never mind both. It feels to me like playing both is something to experiment with and work towards. We will need some more experienced heads initially at least.
Yep I agree it looks exciting having 2 young ball players in the midfield, but like you say it's all about balance now
 

Macseasider

Well-known member
Not a fan to be honest as they aren't our players and go back to their parent clubs

It's just moving the problem for another year

I know people will mention Forest and how they used good loans to get promoted but its cost them millions to replace those loans

I think maybe one or two are OK but we have 4 now with talk of another coming in next week

It doesn’t look like much forward planning to me

Btw I do like the look of Fiorini and the Arsenal kid, less sure on the nobber and the tall bloke from Wolves who couldn't trap a bag of cement against Reading

Anyway still need a right back ASAP and we still don't know if Bowler is going, for me keeping Bowler for another season is a better bit of business than any of the loans we have brought in

I'm starting to like the look of what Appleton is doing especially in midfield where he is trying to get more footballing players in the centre of the pitch instead of the Critchley defensive set up

Long way to go but hopefully a couple more in on permanent deals and we can kick on

Looking forward to Stoke on Saturday, will be interesting to see who starts
Agree with most of that. Thing is loans are probably the only way we can compete in the Championship now we know we have this small budget.
 

fcblackpool

Well-known member
I'd argue that the loans Forest had EARNED them absolute millions.

I don't mind loans if they make the team better, which I think 3 out of the 4 do (the last may do) and in all honesty I'd rather them than sign a substandard squad stocker on a 3 + 1- even Kirk and Dale on loan were no better than what we had.

As someone who didn't want Appleton, these loans do seem to have his stamp on them, so every credit.
 

PoolBorn

Well-known member
The way I see it is that we have signed 4 players of quality that we wouldn't be able to afford
Players who at their parent club are very highly rated
Its a one season fix but if their undoubted quality helps us to stay in the championship then it's a thumbs up from me

Agree with your first two sentences. However the problem is that if there are always 3 or 4 loans in the starting XI then it slows down the development of our own players. A fine balancing act required between staying in the Championship and progressing with the strategy.

Oh and hate to admit this but I agree with most of what Phil says in the OP.
 

NewburyOne

Well-known member
Not a fan to be honest as they aren't our players and go back to their parent clubs

It's just moving the problem for another year

I know people will mention Forest and how they used good loans to get promoted but its cost them millions to replace those loans

I think maybe one or two are OK but we have 4 now with talk of another coming in next week

It doesn’t look like much forward planning to me

Btw I do like the look of Fiorini and the Arsenal kid, less sure on the nobber and the tall bloke from Wolves who couldn't trap a bag of cement against Reading

Anyway still need a right back ASAP and we still don't know if Bowler is going, for me keeping Bowler for another season is a better bit of business than any of the loans we have brought in

I'm starting to like the look of what Appleton is doing especially in midfield where he is trying to get more footballing players in the centre of the pitch instead of the Critchley defensive set up

Long way to go but hopefully a couple more in on permanent deals and we can kick on

Looking forward to Stoke on Saturday, will be interesting to see who starts
The use of loans is absolutely key to pretty much every club in the Championship. I mean where would we have been without Adam, Campbell and Coleman? Obviously we have struggled to bring the right players in permanently, so far, this window but it is a necessary evil.
 

Philbfctrois

Well-known member
I'm actually in agreement with you on this one Phil. That's quite a few inexperienced players who benefit us in the short term if they work out, not so much if they don't.
Another permanent would be great but only if we can get someone better than what we have. We've not yet lost anyone which is great and as players come back from injuries they will see like new signings.
Lastly I'm fully expecting to see Apter, Moore and possibly one or two more of the young lads to be much more involved in and around the squad than we saw last year. It's all progression😁
I don’t think Apter or Moore will be anywhere near the squad

Loaned out would be my guess
 

HetzkeBlaster

Well-known member
Personally, I enjoyed our season in the Premier League of which we could not have done without loan players. There were no debates on the old AVFTT about filling the RB position and the striker positions as we drafted in loans the likes of Seamus Coleman and DJ Campbell, without these we wouldn't have gone up to the Premiership.

The issue of us using loan players to gain promotion should then of been off-set by re-investment from the rewards, or subsequently (in our case) by the legacy monies. But unfortunately we didn't have someone like Simon at the helm to manage the club properly and the rest is history.

So for me, loan players are part of the picture, but not the whole picture Phil........
 

Dave62

Well-known member
I'm very pleased with our loan signings, as many have said they played a major role in getting Forest promoted.
It's also a far less risky option than gambling on big signings/wages which may or may not work.
It's arguable that it's becoming the norm these days, and that by not using the loan market you could be putting the club at a competetive disadvantage.

But the o/p has a fair point, for example you only need to look at Lincoln last season after they/MA couldn't repeat their impressive loans of their play off season.

I think we need to start our (permanent) business much earlier than we have in this window. That would allow for the let downs, fitness test failures, players/agents playing games etc. We could still utilise the loan market without potentially becoming too dependent on 4 or 5 loan players. But we need the additional quality this season after only managing 1 permanent signing. Teams below us last season have strengthened. Eg Hendrick did well for Reading on Saturday.

Overall I'm delighted with the transfer window, at least in the short term for this season. Could do with permanent FB cover though. Really looking forward to Stoke, certainly more than I was before this signing.

Utp
 

Superbretty

Well-known member
It looks like we have got ourselves three very good loan players in (and one the jury's out). They will be of a quality we otherwise couldn't have afforded. If they keep us up this season then job done. Our own young players, Sonny Carey, Apter etc will only improve working with them in training. I'm happy with the signings.
 

Philbfctrois

Well-known member
I'm very pleased with our loan signings, as many have said they played a major role in getting Forest promoted.
It's also a far less risky option than gambling on big signings/wages which may or may not work.
It's arguable that it's becoming the norm these days, and that by not using the loan market you could be putting the club at a competetive disadvantage.

But the o/p has a fair point, for example you only need to look at Lincoln last season after they/MA couldn't repeat their impressive loans of their play off season.

I think we need to start our (permanent) business much earlier than we have in this window. That would allow for the let downs, fitness test failures, players/agents playing games etc. We could still utilise the loan market without potentially becoming too dependent on 4 or 5 loan players. But we need the additional quality this season after only managing 1 permanent signing. Teams below us last season have strengthened. Eg Hendrick did well for Reading on Saturday.

Overall I'm delighted with the transfer window, at least in the short term for this season. Could do with permanent FB cover though. Really looking forward to Stoke, certainly more than I was before this signing.

Utp
I think that's a fair point we did start the recruitment a bit late, maybe the manager change effected this I don't know or maybe it was part of the plan to save money

Loans however do cost money, we will probably be paying a loan fee and a large percentage of the players wage for the duration of the loan, so they aren't completely risk free
 

LeedsSeasider

Well-known member
If the loans can help us get to the riches of the EPL then I have no doubt that that money would be reinvested in the squad like Forest have done.

I get where you’re coming from RE pushing the problem on for another year but if the loans help us out then I don’t see it as a massive problem to solve. Staying in the championship is worth millions of pounds too. The plan was to consolidate and push on from there. Maybe this is all part of the plan.
 

poolseasider

Well-known member
The use of loans is absolutely key to pretty much every club in the Championship. I mean where would we have been without Adam, Campbell and Coleman? Obviously we have struggled to bring the right players in permanently, so far, this window but it is a necessary evil.
Only problem with that DJ 28 Adam 24 Coleman 21 in 2010 we've signed a load of under 20's it's risky as they can blow hot and cold.
 

TheRealKingKenny

Well-known member
If four loans means we score more goals and win more games then it’s fine by me. When we lose them next year we get another four.

The only time it would bother me is if we were playing a loan player and I thought we already had better, I don’t know enough about these lads to make a judgement on that yet.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
Yep I agree it looks exciting having 2 young ball players in the midfield, but like you say it's all about balance now
I think the loan argument is about balance too. What's the right balance? I think if we have 20 players in the 25 that belong to us, plus a load of U21s like Apter, Carey, Moore, Daniels etc,, then having 5 players on loan that we can't afford enables us to play at a higher level than we otherwise could. The pay off is that we have to replace those players next season. But they may help us stay at this level - or move up a level. Both have big financial implications. Reaching the Prem provides the funds to replace those 5 players. Forest have just gone a bit berserk. the 200k a week for Lingard looks dangerous! 10m a year?! Reckless. Not even sure he's better than Bowler tbh, and a lot older.
 

Philbfctrois

Well-known member
I think the loan argument is about balance too. What's the right balance? I think if we have 20 players in the 25 that belong to us, plus a load of U21s like Apter, Carey, Moore, Daniels etc,, then having 5 players on loan that we can't afford enables us to play at a higher level than we otherwise could. The pay off is that we have to replace those players next season. But they may help us stay at this level - or move up a level. Both have big financial implications. Reaching the Prem provides the funds to replace those 5 players. Forest have just gone a bit berserk. the 200k a week for Lingard looks dangerous! 10m a year?! Reckless. Not even sure he's better than Bowler tbh, and a lot older.
He's a different player to be honest and doesn't play in the same position
 

Tangerine Tractor

Well-known member
I think you have to take a step back and see how football has changed and is still changing. The top clubs cream off all the best young talent. They then loan them out for experience, and if they make the grade, then great. If they don't, they sell them for various amounts depending on how highly rated they are.
That means that even with brilliant recruitment and coaching, smaller clubs' academies are not going to have the best talent, unless they chance to unearth a rough diamond. So we HAVE to play the system and borrow and blood the best young talent out there - because if we don't, our rivals will.
 

TimperleyTangerine

Well-known member
One of the key reasons we are using the loan market is, that we have a good number of contracted players who will not play much a part this season. It’s what happens, it’s a cycle and as contracts end we can look to permanent signings. It’s even more difficult for us this year, as NC bought players (or extended contracts) for his plan and then did a runner. We have to honour contracts, even though MA would like to sweep some out of the door. If nobody comes in with an offer for these players, we are stuck.

In the circumstances it’s sensible business from the club.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
He's a different player to be honest and doesn't play in the same position
Of course. I'm just comparing value for money. And wondering about the spunking of money and what causes people to take leave of their senses in certain situations! I'm sure Lingard will do a decent job but the money is insane for someone of his ability and lack of track record. Bit like a Ford Mondeo that's sat on the drive for the last 10 years.
 

Scaramanga

Well-known member
Not a fan to be honest as they aren't our players and go back to their parent clubs

It's just moving the problem for another year

I know people will mention Forest and how they used good loans to get promoted but its cost them millions to replace those loans

I think maybe one or two are OK but we have 4 now with talk of another coming in next week

It doesn’t look like much forward planning to me

Btw I do like the look of Fiorini and the Arsenal kid, less sure on the nobber and the tall bloke from Wolves who couldn't trap a bag of cement against Reading

Anyway still need a right back ASAP and we still don't know if Bowler is going, for me keeping Bowler for another season is a better bit of business than any of the loans we have brought in

I'm starting to like the look of what Appleton is doing especially in midfield where he is trying to get more footballing players in the centre of the pitch instead of the Critchley defensive set up

Long way to go but hopefully a couple more in on permanent deals and we can kick on

Looking forward to Stoke on Saturday, will be interesting to see who starts
My only concern is that the loans don't offer much in the way of improving the current squad. If that turns out to be the case you may as well blood your own youth players.
 

Bloodorange

Well-known member
It also allows another year for youth players to develop.
Nail on the head and I would guess that is the strategy being adopted whilst securing Championship status.

Next season and this one in part will see the emergence of Moore Tharme and Apter to name but 3.

Given the investment in the development squad awarding of pro contracts off the back of successes at youth level etc it's obvious the path the club is taking.

It's when not if.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
My only concern is that the loans don't offer much in the way of improving the current squad. If that turns out to be the case you may as well blood your own youth players.
True. Fiorini and Patino are almost certainly a cut above what we have here. Williams and Corbynu? Remains to be seen. I suspect they will both turn out pretty well. Corb has only been here 5 minutes, needs to settle in.
 

Tanger

Well-known member
Not a fan to be honest as they aren't our players and go back to their parent clubs

It's just moving the problem for another year

I know people will mention Forest and how they used good loans to get promoted but its cost them millions to replace those loans

I think maybe one or two are OK but we have 4 now with talk of another coming in next week

It doesn’t look like much forward planning to me

Btw I do like the look of Fiorini and the Arsenal kid, less sure on the nobber and the tall bloke from Wolves who couldn't trap a bag of cement against Reading

Anyway still need a right back ASAP and we still don't know if Bowler is going, for me keeping Bowler for another season is a better bit of business than any of the loans we have brought in

I'm starting to like the look of what Appleton is doing especially in midfield where he is trying to get more footballing players in the centre of the pitch instead of the Critchley defensive set up

Long way to go but hopefully a couple more in on permanent deals and we can kick on

Looking forward to Stoke on Saturday, will be interesting to see who starts
Last time I checked Phil a season only lasts a year. It's a means to an end and a bloody good one.
 

Yarmouth Seasider

Well-known member
Not a fan to be honest as they aren't our players and go back to their parent clubs

It's just moving the problem for another year

I know people will mention Forest and how they used good loans to get promoted but its cost them millions to replace those loans

I think maybe one or two are OK but we have 4 now with talk of another coming in next week

It doesn’t look like much forward planning to me

Btw I do like the look of Fiorini and the Arsenal kid, less sure on the nobber and the tall bloke from Wolves who couldn't trap a bag of cement against Reading

Anyway still need a right back ASAP and we still don't know if Bowler is going, for me keeping Bowler for another season is a better bit of business than any of the loans we have brought in

I'm starting to like the look of what Appleton is doing especially in midfield where he is trying to get more footballing players in the centre of the pitch instead of the Critchley defensive set up

Long way to go but hopefully a couple more in on permanent deals and we can kick on

Looking forward to Stoke on Saturday, will be interesting to see who starts
I'd agree with all that Phil, especially the Bowler bit. On the plus side it does appear that Appleton has a decent reputation for bringing this type of player on, as long as we are getting the cream rather than the John-Jules it could all be to our advantage.

That said, I'm sure it will take a little time for the loanees to settle in and we're going to need some experienced heads in there along with them, again, as Phil says, a couple more permanents and it could be an interesting season.
 

Philbfctrois

Well-known member
Nail on the head and I would guess that is the strategy being adopted whilst securing Championship status.

Next season and this one in part will see the emergence of Moore Tharme and Apter to name but 3.

Given the investment in the development squad awarding of pro contracts off the back of successes at youth level etc it's obvious the path the club is taking.

It's when not if.
I doubt it to be honest

All 3 will probably be loaned out this season and will continue to be back up
 

gordy29

Well-known member
Problem might be what the parent club expects and what terms are agreed eg do they have to play a certain number of games, or do we pay the parent club more if they don’t start. Could be a problem if they don’t perform. Let’s hope that doesn’t apply.
 
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